‘Definitely a Cover-Up’

[nadinbrzezinski]

‘Definitely a Cover-Up’
Former Abu Ghraib Intel Staffer Says Army Concealed Involvement in Abuse Scandal

By Brian Ross and Alexandra Salomon


May 18, 2004 — Dozens of soldiers — other than the seven military police reservists who have been charged — were involved in the abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison, and there is an effort under way in the Army to hide it, a key witness in the investigation told ABCNEWS.



"There's definitely a cover-up," the witness, Sgt. Samuel Provance, said. "People are either telling themselves or being told to be quiet."

Provance, 30, was part of the 302nd Military Intelligence Battalion stationed at Abu Ghraib last September. He spoke to ABCNEWS despite orders from his commanders not to.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/abu_ghraib_cover_up_040518-1.html

[central scrutinizer]

1. KA - BOOM

blow the lid off!

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. It is worst than that

I would say we have definitely reached the end game stage wtih these
..... keeping it clean for the kiddies

[Piperay]

3. Yeah, gosh...

"what will we tell the children" x( this is worse than a blow job.

[pinto]

4. gets harder and harder to read the reports. I am ashamed for my country.

[maddezmom]

6. agree, but it's important to know the facts

my heart hurts for my country and for the men and women who serve the country honorably that will be affected adversely by the scums in charge.

[PaDUer]

9. And just think...

they're sending more people there, and then the draft..

[maddezmom]

18. yes, and some of the folks they are sending

are my family and friends...some going back, some for the first time. :(

[PaDUer]

21. Refuse...n/t

[Just Me]

24. As if "reality" isn't painful enough, watching "people" placed upon tracks

,...watching people being pretty much "tied" to those tracks,...of a no-stop train,...

Makes me mad as hell!!!

I am grateful for all those true PATRIOTS,...military, intelligence and "officials",...who are FIGHTING,...FIGHTING for our lives.

I am grateful.

I am grateful.

[maddezmom]

26. wish they would

I've offered support..,monetary and more, but one can only do so much. :(

[goclark]

31. Can they move to another country?

If we have a draft again can you avoid it by moving to Canada, Europe?

Would you have to give up your US citizenship for ever?

[Gingersnapsback]

53. I believe that option is not available

You have to show your military registration status to enter Canada. I suppose they left no escape to MX or EU either. This is what I was told on Sunday. Does anyone have a copy of the Regulation?

[Barrett808]

5. Interesting, given today's UPI story

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=562916&mesg_id=562916

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Yep to quote that other thread

this is a perfect storm... this is an F-5 Hurricane, this is an 8.5 richter scale earthquake...

And the ship of state is now on the shoals getting battered, seriously battered.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

13. F-5 would be tornadoes

Fujita scale is used for tornadoes, "Category" describes hurricanes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. thanks

lets see, Fujita five tornado, Category five Hurricane, 8.5 Richer Earthquake, point is, this is that kidn of a crisis and most people are still sleep walking through history.

:-)

[Career Prole]

14. Will we get enough mad republicans to at least start

an impeachment? Can we at least say the word now?!

[shanti]

42. thank you, this reminds me about another famous coverup

cornered rats will attack.

[Just Me]

52. Yup, and to think we only get to see bare minimum of what is really

happening behind the scenes. Apparently, there is another very real war of wills happening. There are those sticking to basic principles of law and democracy doing their own covert op against those who are pursuing a form of tyranny.

Someday, maybe,...we will read about it and talk about it and forever remember that extremist fodder can NEVER EVER again be allowed to wreak havoc on our country and the world, EVER.

[daleo]

7. I don't know if Rummy will last

A right wing columnist in my local paper thought he would probably resign soon. It was nobody most people on DU would know, but he is the type who supported the war quite solidly. He is one of those right wingers who will occasionally surprise you by deviating from the expected ideological line when the logic of the situation is unassailable, so his comment may presage something.

[0007]

19. I thought he'd be gone last week, and now I say this week,

guess I'm wrong all the around around. LOL

[NMDemDist2]

38. Memorial Day weekend I've been telling ya over and over

gonna break it late Friday and have the whole weekend to blow over while the country is camping

[0007]

47. There may be something to what your saying, LOL!

[ant]

41. will cambone (or whatever his name is)...

...take the fall?

I was just listening to To The Point, I think, on the radio, and his name seems to be the one popping up a lot. The show had a conservative guy - former CIA currently at the Enterprise Institute - and a guy from the Nation on, and the discussion wasn't, "does it go up the chain or not" but "how far up does it go." Even the conservative guy was pretty much convinced this isn't just a few bad apples.

It was a pretty interesting discussion, too, in terms of the likelihood that something else will come out. The guy commented that the Pentagon is a huge bureaucracy and as such pretty much everything gets documented. Partly for legal reasons and partly because people like to cover their own asses. He was basically saying that there just might be a paper trail - there usually is - and the issue now is whether or not people will be willing to risk their careers in order to expose it. Given how the civilian leadership is so despised right now, and given that people are already starting to talk to the media (go Hersh!), I would say it's likely.

[krkaufman]

45. Yeah, they don't want him out too soon.

I'm starting to better understand why Rumsfeld hasn't resigned or been forced out, already. His incompetence between the war/post-war planning certainly warranted it, but I'm now thinking that they need to keep him around until more of the bad news and conspiracy are revealed.

If Rummy resigns too early, someone will then need to take the fall for the new bad news. If they keep him around, they can attach all the evil to Rummy, and cleanse themselves via his ouster.

Just a thought...

Cheers!

[PolJugglr]

8. NOW we're talkin

It's the big headline on ABC news....

"In response, Army officials said it is "routine procedure to advise military personnel under investigative review" not to comment."

hahaha, looks like they couldn't keep one of them quiet with threats, maybe this will encourage more to come out with info.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. And the top of the chain, the military side

is going before the Senate...

Ok it is not the full chain, only Miller, Sanchez and Abizaid... we are missing the Joint Chiefs and LtGen Boykin, but hey that is a start....

As I said above, for the Administration we have reached End Game... and as they say, DUCK the S****t is about to hit the fan... or rather it already has... it is just starting to fly

[Blasphemer]

12. What spin!

"Routine procedure" indeed. The media could really redeem themselves if they blow the roof off of the coverup. Once they declared Rummy safe and starting hiding the worst of the photos, it was pretty obvious what was going down. Can't wait for a big time whistleblower to come forward. Surely, someone has been ordered to destroy evidence by now.

[Tinoire]

16. Senior MI NCO to Col David Hackworth

05-10-2004
Prison Abuse: An MI Officer Sounds Off



Hack,

The abuse and humiliation actually took place at 3 prisons in the Baghdad area. This was not done by accident, it was a planned, systematic way to break down the prisoners will to resist any interrogation, degrade them and then blackmail them into working for US Intelligence.

The pictures were taken as a way to intimidate the prisoner and then keep them working as low level collectors (if they did not the pictures would have been released to their family and tribes) Videos were also made as a way to record the "success" to be used as a teaching tool at Fort Huachuca (to train future interrogators). The MPs and Interrogators were told the Geneva Convention did not apply to Iraq Soldiers and Civilian Detainees. The methods the MPs used were actually taught to the MPs by military intelligence professionals and civilian contractors. This was a sanctioned operation and the methods were known to be used by Generals in the chain of command. Women MPs were sought out to further humiliate the Iraqi prisoners. The female MPs who accepted the jobs, conducted degrading acts upon the Iraq men, because such acts by women on men in the Arab culture are so humiliating, it was thought that the men would then talk just to stop the abuse by the female MPs. This abuse was done in stages and the less cooperative Iraqis were given the more degrading abuse to condition them to interrogation. The Major General (Barbara Fast) in charge of the MI personnel in Baghdad sanctioned this treatment.

Hack, if they are going to hang privates and NCOs for meting out this abuse, they better go after the Generals and Colonels who sanctioned and approved these methods be use. This is a not an isolated case of abuse by a few soldiers, this was a planned campaign well know by the entire chain of command. There is also evidence that people in the Pentagon also knew and approved of these methods many months prior to the pictures being relased and only told the President when the pictures were published.

The DOD is now trying to pin the blame on anything else, other than the Generals amd Colonels who sanctioned this treatment.

MI Senior NCO

http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Hacks%20Target%20Feedback%202004.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=13&rnd=832.9569443463192

[Sterling]

22. Why does it not credit hackworth on the site.

Only a reference to "hack". I want to send this out but it better be the right guy. How can I prove it?

[Tinoire]

29. Here you go- It's Hackworth's site

Soldiers For The Truth is a grass-roots educational organization started by a small group of concerned veterans and citizens to inform the public, the Congress, and the media on the decline in readiness of our armed forces. It is a non-profit organization under section 501 (c) (3) of the Internal revenue Code.


Inspired by the outspoken idealism of retired Colonel David Hackworth, SFTT aims to give our service people, veterans, and retirees a clear voice with the media, Congress, the public and their services.

As expressed in the title of Hackworth's first book, "About Face" when he courageously faced his nation's decline during the Vietnam War, SFTT is facing relevant political and military issues head-on to prevent a further decline in readiness and national security.

SFTT is headed by retired Army Colonel David H. Hackworth (www.hackworth.com).

The SFTT newsletter is called "Defense Watch". Voice Of The Grunt, originally conceived as David Hackworth's personal newsletter, is an integral part of the newsletter and remains the forum for the troops on the ground. The Defense Watch newsletter's main goal is to make YOUR concerns heard, using the full spectrum of the Internet. In addition, the newsletter addresses the broader perspectives and issues that require political debate and involvement at higher levels.


http://www.sftt.org/about.html

<snip>
Current Operations

We are the voice of the rank and file, representing mainly a readership from Private E1 to Colonel (O6), as well as civilians of comparable rank and position and like-minded general officers as well. We have 20,000 registered supporters and are adding on average 170 per month.

Despite the emergence of other E-commerce military sites, we are able to offer profoundly different perspectives. While the other sites are interested in profit and must avoid attacking critical issues and bad leaders, we can target the issues and the leaders.

Because of our outspoken nature, SFTT has successfully increased public exposure: Hack's columns (continuous); MSNBC - (Y2K medals/27 Mar 00); USA Today (Y2K medals/20 Mar 00), Army Times (Y2K/3 Apr issue), Washington Times (LTG Kennedy affair). The August 1999 SFTT Newsletter featured an article on anthrax vaccinations written by Bill Rogers and made its way into the halls of Congress.



http://www.sftt.org/about.html

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

28. Is this a reliable site?

Ive heard of Hackworth, saw him on TV, not sure about the guy...but this post is pretty damning.

[Tinoire]

30. See post 29 - Also there is mention of it on Hackworth's main site

Upper left frame... "Support SFTT" http://www.hackworth.com/

There are several mentions of SFTT on his main page-

HACK'S CALL
TO ACTION

SFTT has become a full-time, results-oriented, reform-delivering outfit that’s causing serious changes in our military by constantly pushing to get our troops the right gear, the right leadership and the right training.

The hot skinny from the troops and our ahead-of-the-pack reporting keeps us running and gunning, fighting for our grunts every step of the way.

We get over 60,000 hits every week; if just 50% of our readers contributed thirty bucks a year we’d have the budget we need to keep speaking out even more effectively. But this isn’t the case, so I continue to beg. Believe me, I hate begging--but if I didn’t beg we’d go under.

The last time SFTT got into financial trouble and almost bellied-up, the faithful rallied and in just a few days sent in over $47,000 to keep us going. And once again we’re asking all of you to contribute that $30 a year for SFTT, which would keep us afloat and hopefully help us move ahead into deeper waters.

A few readers of Defense Watch contribute a grand or more a year; some cough up the thirty bucks, but most of you toss in zilch. So why not get with the program and take the heartburn and stops and starts out of our fundraising efforts by showing a more consistent level of support before bankruptcy again comes knocking?

Donations are our lifeblood, and any of you who access the website on a regular basis should do your best to help out. Beginning with those of you who don’t contribute regularly as well as those of you with the wherewithal to contribute more. Our warriors are out there fighting for us around the world--and they need the ongoing support of each and every one of us!

-- Hack

[gratuitous]

17. See? It's not like Watergate at all!

In Watergate, you could seriously make the case that it was the cover-up, not the crime, that was the worse offense. Dubya's corrupt regime has topped Nixon in that I can't tell (and don't want to be able to tell) whether the crime or the cover-up is worse. Paging Peter Rodino!

[info being]

55. Watergate was child's play

[AirAmFan]

20. The Taguba report itself smells like a coverup

Three things I've read make me suspect the Taguba report was intended explicitly as a coverup, to limit accountability for abuse of Iraqi prisoners to the commanders and personnel of just one small unit:

(1) The Taguba report was limited in scope to one MP brigade, and Taguba could not investigate higher-ups.

(2) The generals who assigned Taguba to write the report themselves are implicated in mandating aggressive interrogation methods that the Red Cross had complained about last year.

(3) The highest command General Taguba himself has held was at the brigade level, and in the Army lower-ranking soldiers generally do not investigate their superiors.

Plus, the "macho" men who sneered at the Geneva conventions must have considered their designated senior scapegoat officer as completely expendable: she's a woman! IMO, had the media not published photos of the abuse, the secret Taguba report would have ended the matter. Had the report remained secret for a few months, Rummy could have controlled any leak later on. He would have been able to point to "successful" prosecution of officers no higher than Gen. Janis Karpinski. "We took care of this already, months ago".

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are the sources of my three observations:

(1) CNN.com - Transcript of Taguba opening statement - May 11, 2004

"Again, my task was limited to the allegations of detainee abuse involving M.P. personnel and the policies, procedures and command climate of the 800th M.P. Brigade."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/11/taguba.transcript/

(2) 'A top Rumsfeld deputy, Under Secretary of Defense Stephen A. Cambone, told the Senate Armed Services Committee Tuesday that until "last week, the scale of this was unknown to us. Until the photographs started appearing in the press, I had no sense of it." Investigative reports by the Army and the International Committee of the Red Cross, Cambone testified, went to commanders in Iraq and did not reach the Pentagon.

Yet the responsibilities of those commanders -- Lt. Gen. David D. McKiernan, ground forces commander, and Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, who heads all forces in Iraq -- were never mentioned in the lengthy investigation by Army Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba. He pinpointed the leadership failure at a far lower level, "the brigade commander on down," he said this week.

Taguba, a deputy commanding general serving under McKiernan, undertook his investigation at the direction of Sanchez and Gen. John Abizaid, commander of all U.S. military forces in the region,...'

http://www.newhousenews.com/archive/wood051304.html

(3) "Head of Inquiry on Iraq Abuses Now in Spotlight Published: May 11, 2004

General Taguba's team spent about a month gathering evidence and completing its report, and presented its findings to General McKiernan on March 3, the report says. Under the scope set by his superiors, the inquiry was limited to the conduct of a military police brigade.... General Taguba has served as a brigade commander, but he has not held a division command, a step often seen as as a prerequisite for those who aspire to the Army's very highest ranks."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/11/politics/11TAGU.html?pagewanted=2

[Tinoire]

35. Good post! n/t

[WillyT]

23. Coming Up On The West Coast In A Moment !!!

Thanks for the heads-up!!!

:bounce:

[rumguy]

25. sounds like the geneva convention was thrown out the window

and the baby and its bathwater went right along with it...

Mission undermined!

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

48. He hasn't answered yet.

Why am I not surprised?

[rumguy]

56. Did someone ask me a question here or what?

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

27. I sort of figured this was going to happen....

.....we will see some people swing for it, but the "system" protects itself.

[brownsbrun]

32. court marshall

If there is a cover-up, we'll never know. the trial will not be televised, except on Arab TV.

[brownsbrun]

33. cover-up

Why so quick to try these guys?
Saddam has not even gone to trial, yet.

[Judi Lynn]

36. Sgt. Provance's testimony points out Major General George Fay

From the article:

Maj. Gen. George Fay, the Army's deputy chief of staff for intelligence, was assigned by the Pentagon to investigate the role of military intelligence in the abuse at the Iraq prison.

Fay started his probe on April 23, but Provance said when Fay interviewed him, the general seemed interested only in the military police, not the interrogators, and seemed to discourage him from testifying.

Provance said Fay threatened to take action against him for failing to report what he saw sooner, and the sergeant fears he will be ostracized for speaking out.
(snip)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

UNITED STATES ARMY
INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY COMMAND
BRIGADIER GENERAL GEORGE R. FAY
DEPUTY COMMANDING GENERAL (IMA)

Brigadier General George R. Fay was commissioned through the ROTC Program at St Peter's College in Jersey City, N.J., where he earned a bachelor of science degree in economics in 1970. He served on active duty from 1970 to 1974 as a Counterintelligence Officer in the Republic of Korea, an Instructor at the Army Intelligence School, and as the Post Intelligence Officer at Fort Drum, N.Y.

Upon leaving active duty, General Fay joined the 24th Military Intelligence Battalion in Fort Wadsworth, N.Y., as an Imagery Interpretation Officer and then Headquarters Company Commander. In 1977, he relocated to California and joined the 309th Army Security Agency Battalion in Bell, California. He held a number of positions in that unit including S2; Commander, 406th Army Security Agency Company; S3; Commander, 734th MI Company; and Battalion Executive Officer. In 1984, he returned to New York and joined the 1150th USAR School as the Assistant Operations Officer and then Command and General Staff Course Instructor. In 1989, General Fay became Chief, Intelligence and Security Division, 77th Army Reserve Command (ARCOM), Fort Totten, N.Y. In 1992, General Fay took command of the 242nd Combat Electronic Warfare Intelligence Battalion in Fort Wadsworth. In 1994, he became the Assistant Chief of Staff, 77th ARCOM. In that same year, he took command of the 432nd Military Intelligence Detachment (Strategic) in Bronx, N.Y. In 1997, he was selected to be the Chief of Staff, 77th Regional Support Command. General Fay was assigned to INSCOM as the Deputy Commanding General in October 1999.
(snip)

General Fay is a graduate of the Army Infantry School, the Counterintelligence Officers Course, the Aerial Surveillance Officers Course, the Electronic Warfare Officers Course, the Command and General Staff College and the Army War College. General Fay earned a master's degree in business administration from St. John's University, Queens, New York.
(snip)&imgrefurl=http://www.warrennj.org/pages2/grfay.htm&h=212&w=170&sz=7&tbnid=zsaZb76Z8q0J:&tbnh=99&tbnw=80&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522General%2BFay%2522%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Dactive%26sa%3DN">~~~~ link ~~~~

[maddezmom]

46. so Fay, the man in charge of investigating Pappas

is only interested in the MP's...well I guess his report will be a whitewash.:argh:

[JayS]

37. Darn! I thought this was going to be about the OK City bombing trial.

n/t

[brownsbrun]

39. yeah,

What's up with that?
Anybody talking about John Doe #2?

[JayS]

40. I think the defense is wrapping up today. There should be more...

...out soon. There is plenty of talk about J. Doe 2 and others. Listen to the NPR segment I'll list below. It will make your hair stand on end. I never knew that there were some Democratic heavy hitters in 2002 demanding to see the nine tapes that the FBI lists as evidence that they say do not exist even though they can describe their contents! Interesting. And guess who else is mentioned...Jamie Gorelick. That name sound familiar?


*************
Go to http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1846269 for a short (3:33) but interesting audio clip. Click on "All Things Considered audio" and you can listen in RealAudio or Windows Media.

Also of interest:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20040419/ap_on_go_c ...

Document: Oklahoma City Bombing Was Taped
By JOHN SOLOMON, Associated Press Writer
Mon Apr 19, 6:59 PM ET

WASHINGTON - A Secret Service document written shortly after the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing described security video footage of the attack and witness testimony that suggested Timothy McVeigh (news - web sites) may have had accomplices at the scene.

"Security video tapes from the area show the truck detonation 3 minutes and 6 seconds after the suspects exited the truck," the Secret Service reported six days after the attack on a log of agents' activities and evidence in the Oklahoma investigation.

*SNIP*

An entry a day earlier on the same log reported that the security video was consistent with a witness' account that he saw McVeigh's getaway car in the lead before a woman guided the truck to its final parking spot in front of the Murrah building.

"A witness to the explosion named Grossman claimed to have seen a pale yellow Mercury car with a Ryder truck behind it pulling up to the federal building," the log said. The witness "further claimed to have seen a woman on the corner waving to the truck."

A Secret Service agent named McNally "noted that this fact is significant due to the fact that the security video shows the Ryder truck pulling up to the Federal Building and then pausing (7 to 10 seconds) before resuming into the slot in front of the building," the log said. "It is speculated that the woman was signaling the truck when a slot became available."

*SNIP*

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Barrett808]

49. kick

[Mandate My Ass]

50. Sweeeeeeeeeeeeet

:kick:

[nolabels]

51. Kick

Some people do have a conscious, thank goodness

[Bragi]

54. I'm no lawyer, but...

Why aren't there investigations now taking place under the War Crimes Act passed by Congress in 1996?

(See http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/2441.html)

The Act is very clear, and has not been rescinded. This being the case, the people who committed these war crimes, and anyone responsible for orders or conditions under which these crimes took place, should now be the targets of investigation.

Is this happening?

If not, what needs to happen to make this happen?

- b