Soldier: Superiors gave abuse orders (England gives television interview)

[maddezmom]

May 12, 2004, 10:27 AM EDT


FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. -- The Army private facing a court-martial for being photographed with naked Iraqi prisoners says she was following orders to create psychological pressure on them.

Pfc. Lynndie England told KCNC-TV in Denver on Tuesday that her superiors gave her specific instructions on how to pose for the photos. Asked who gave the orders, she would say only, "Persons in my chain of command."

~snip~

The interview with England, a military reservist from West Virginia, was taped Tuesday in North Carolina. England, who is now at Fort Bragg, also met Tuesday with one of a team of Denver lawyers who have volunteered to take her case.

Asked whether worse things happened than those already seen on the photos, she said yes but declined to elaborate.
~snip~

more: http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-usengl0513,0,2533163.story?coll=ny-homepage-big-pix

[Mountainman]

1. How could someone from England's background know what

would humiliate Iraqis?

It's seem obvious to me that the guards were instructed to do what they did by persons who knew what the cultural of Iraq was and how to humiliate the prisoners.

[BeHereNow]

5. Someone like, say an Israeli interrogator?

The MFSO digest today contained a link to
a report that there is now evidence that
some of the Titan contractors, (John Israel, to be exact)
were in fact Israeli interrogators.
Your tax dollars at work.
BHN

[TahitiNut]

7. I strongly agree.

Touching prisoners with the soles of their feet, use of dogs, public nudity, being made subservient to a woman, genital contact, rape of women ... virtually every technique appears very customized to attack the specific cultural and religious mores and ethics of Muslims.

Even more interestingly, most of the techniques are designed to "feel" not very bad from the cultural background of American guards. It seems as though someone was careful to circumvent the "illegal order" inclinations by imposing tortures that could be viewed by an American soldier as just close to a good time at an orgy.

[BlueEyedSon]

2. Can't wait til she names the names.....

[damnraddem]

17. If she lives that long.

Or is suddenly not court martialed after all.

Or suddenly signs a deal with the prosecution, the contents of which are sealed.

[RapidCreek]

21. I'm fairly certain the second option is the one which will come

to fruition. Following that we will never hear of Ms. Pointy Girl ever again.

RC

[Catherine Vincent]

3. She and others were following orders,

but they sure did follow those orders with glee.

[maddezmom]

6. Not Just Following Orders - WaPo Op Ed

Not Just Following Orders
I'm ashamed of the unit I once commanded.
By James D. Villa
Wednesday, May 12, 2004; Page A23


From 1989 to 1992 I commanded the 372nd MP Company, the Army Reserve unit from Cumberland, Md., that is at the center of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal. In the years since then, I've had an enduring affection for the unit and those who serve in it. Today what I feel is a sort of sickness, and shame at having been affiliated with the 372nd.


With congressional, military and independent investigations in the offing, there are many things about the incidents at Abu Ghraib that we do not know. Given the involvement of military intelligence issues, there are many critical things that we may never know. But there are a few conclusions we can certainly draw.

These actions were the result of huge command failures. The senior person charged thus far is Ivan L. Frederick, a staff sergeant. In an MP company, a person of his rank is normally placed in charge of a squad of 11 soldiers. I refuse to believe that no leader above Frederick was aware of or complicit in the abuses that were apparently widespread throughout the prison. While certain officers were relieved of their commands and other leaders were given letters of reprimand, the failure of unit leaders, from company to brigade, is stunning.

The 372nd has approximately 150 soldiers and is divided into five platoons, four of which consist of MPs. The company commander is directly responsible for all actions taken by his soldiers, or those that they fail to take. The 372nd's commander and the relevant platoon leader either knew or should have known of the actions of their subordinates, as should have their noncommissioned officers. All these leaders failed in their most basic responsibilities of supervising their soldiers in the performance of their duties.

~snip~
more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19189-2004May11.html

[Say_What]

14. GREAT LETTER--WE NEED MORE LIKE IT...

From the letter:

A failure to condemn what is wrong is also a failure to recognize what is right -- and what our committed military men and women do around the world each day. Further, minimizing the conduct of these MPs by comparing it to the reckless and violent acts of the Iraqi insurgents is wholly beside the point. We must compare our actions to those of the men and women who have honorably served this country as soldiers, sailors, Marines and airmen. We must look to them, and to our own standards of conduct, and not to people who would wantonly kill and terrorize innocents. If our claim is merely that we are better than the terrorists, we leave a tenuous legacy for a budding democracy in Iraq.

[Say_What]

12. There is a thing called CONSCIENCE and they could have said no

rather than participate in the TORTURE of another human being. But this thing went all the way up the command line.

[0007]

32. Like a pedophile working in a home for wayward boys, 'eh?

[nini]

4. I'm sure her superiors were in on it.. however..

she needs to take some blame for following orders that are illegal/wrong and she sure will NEVER be able to explain to me the glee on her face in those pics... She was having a good time partaking in all this crap. She's no victim in my mind.

If our soldiers are so willing to follow orders that are illegal on any level, we're no better than the Nazi concentration camp soldiers and officers. They have a resposibility to do the right thing when they know something is wrong.

[SpiralHawk]

8. But...the orders came from the Grand High Inquisitor

of Skull & Bones - George Bush

Let the Inquisition continue. Not.

[Say_What]

15. Oh yeah, the *higher* father... What is it about Thou Shalt Not Kill

does BoyKing NOT understand???

[frylock]

9. Soldier: SS gave abuse orders

How could you dare to be so bold
You only did as you were told
Marionettes dancing in time
To the apologetic lines
For all the monsters of our time

ANTHRAX - Belly of the Beast

[Loonman]

10. Ya, Ve believe you

Fraulien England, ja!

[PartyPooper]

11. Orders or not, common decency would preclude doing what she and others did

to torture and humilate fellow human beings!

This soldier and all of the others who approved or participated in such degrading, sadistic, and despicable acts are the barbarians of 21st century Amerika!

Thank you, George W. Bu$h!

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. She needs to name names,

after they convict her she is disapearing for a lomg time

[Just Me]

25. Her attorney says she doesn't know the names of the mercs,...

,...who were apparently given authority (by whom?) to direct her and her comrades. A discovery request has already been denied.

[ILeft]

16. Is "When to disobey an order in wartime" part of Army training?

Are the soldiers encouraged in any way to reflect on orders and do any soul searching before carrying out an order in a war time situation? What are the penalties for not following orders in a war time situation?

It's easy to say they should have known better, but I imagine that the soldiers' minds, if not their bodies, are being f**ked with at least as heavily as the prisoners' minds.

These are Junior Bush's crimes against humanity, just as the camps were Hitler's crimes. Sure, Bush isn't in the photos, but neither was Hitler.

[pacifictiger]

18. it was the officers held responsible

at Neuremburg, not the soldiers.
Tim Russert on The Daily Show last night said the photos had been released to the press by the father of one of the accused because he felt the son was being made a scapegoat to cover for higher ups, implying that was the only way he thought the investigation would be widened. Curiously, Taguba's report and investigation was somehow slowed down/prevented from going further up the chain of command. He said his interviews only went up as far as the brigade commander. He felt the problem resulted from lack of supervision, lack of training, and unclear command authority, combined with actions by the soldiers in question.

[DrBB]

20. Matter of fact, YES, it IS part of Army training

Military official on the PBS News Hour made exactly this point last night--how and when to disobey an illegal order is something they ARE trained in. Not that training makes it an easy thing to do, of course.

I'm sure it's in the transcript--don't have time to hunt it up, if it's online yet.

[pacifictiger]

33. Taguba said these national guard

soldiers had received basic training stateside, but that they had not been trained extensively for these sorts of situations. He also noted that contrary to military rules, geneva conventions were NOT posted at the prison, nor were they reviewed by commanding officers to the soldiers.

[DrWeird]

19. She was grinning while she said it.

She said she was ordered to smile and give a thumbs up.

When asked who gave the order, she said: "from higher up." Then gave a big cheese eating grin.

I couldn't make that up if I tried.

[discordian]

29. Cheese eating grin...

I'd have one too if I was sitting tight on those names. That's her ticket out of this mess. If she publicly names the people that gave her the orders, then there's a lot more shit to roll downhill. If she keeps her mouth shut about it, except to the right people, then she can get out without too many problems. She's making some people in her chain of command very nervous right now.

[DrBB]

22. She's not a monster

I do think she should be prosecuted. But those who pretend she and the others are monstrous aberrations are just trying to put distance between themselves and these acts, which are something a wide spectrum of humans are perfectly capable of--and worse--when acting under perceived authority. Vid. Milgram Experiments.

And of course to focus on the point that "obeying orders is no excuse!" is a way of avoiding the only issue of real public import: who gave the orders?

[Skittles]

24. no she is not a monster

but she most certainly is one nasty piece of work.

[The Stranger]

23. Quick, before the Neonazicons declare her to be an "animal combatant,"

er, I mean an "enemy combatant."

[The_Casual_Observer]

26. It will be her word against theirs

She is in the perfect position to nail them all to the cross and she and her lawyers know it. Good luck Mr. Pentagon

[atreides1]

27. Hearsay

That's excatly what the military prosecutor will say, it's hearsay.

She doesn't remember names, she has nothing in writing, there is no evidence to support her claim.

And who do you think a jury consisting of officers and senior NCO's is going to beleive, PFC England or the evidence(photos), also what
kind of deals are being made by the three others who are scheduled for Courts Martial in Iraq.

She's screwed, and not in a pleasant way either.

[msmcghee]

28. Anyone who's worked for almost any large company knows . .

. . exactly how this works. There are the written rules that you have been told to follow. Then there's the way you do things if you want to accomplish the task that you are expected to get done. Everyone knows you can't do it by following the rules.

A manager is someone who's figured out how to get you to get your job done - which makes them look good - and which always requires breaking the rules - in a way that protects them if the shit hits the fan. You get to be a manager by learning how to break the rules while protecting your boss.

Following the written rules only earns scorn and extra duty and bad evaluations from your manager - and it guarantees that your peers will hate you, because you put them at risk.

Whether England enjoyed it or not makes no difference. She worked in an environment where she, and every one of her peers cooperated with management to humiliate those detainees - because that's what her boss wanted and that's what her peers were doing and encouraging her to do.

Now, according to the rules of the game, if she did a good enough job, she'll get the punishment not her manager. Taguba said as much yesterday in the hearing. Shit does roll downhill - and this is a good illustration of why that ancient rule has always prevailed.

[Blue_Tires]

30. sick

why do i have the strange feeling England is going to come out of this ordeal with a book contract, and end up VERY rich???

[msmcghee]

31. Because this is . . .

. . America. You can create spin-off products from anything that happens that grabs the public's attention.

[Citizen Daryl]

34. Start squawking now, Lynndie, or have a nice scapegoating.

[Failure]

35. Didn't work in Nuremberg, not gonna work now. (nt)