Some 2,000 Gun Control Supporters At 'Million Mom March'

[-..__...]

Maybe now these pinheads will wake up and smell the coffee.


WASHINGTON -- The second "Million Mom March" was much smaller than the first but supporters of gun control remain resolute about retaining the ban on assault weapons.

About 2,000 people turned out Sunday in Washington. Among them was Nick Wilcox, whose 18-year-old daughter was shot to death in 2001 at a California mental health department office by a patient using an illegal weapon. Wilcox said assault weapons don't belong on the streets.

Speakers urged renewal of the ban on assault rifles that is set to expire in September.

More...

Edited to fix link.

[bluestateguy]

1. Gun control is losing steam

With the possibility of domestic terrorism, many people see guns in a different light, for self-defense.

I also think many people on the Left are starting to understand that it does us little good to disarm ourselves when the gay bashers, rednecks, racists, fundamentalistwackos, Islamophobes and superpatriots are all armed.

[billbuckhead]

7. Regulating guns would give us the opportunity to keep them in check

and be able to arrest them for fomenting terror. Ironically, guns or no guns, the Bush thugs will arrest everybody of all political stripes they choose to, by violating or nulling other amendments. A promiscuous interpretation of the second amendment does no one but rightwing extremists any good.Technically, Ashcroft and the NRA will fight for Bin Ladin's right to have a gun. They're not threatened by guns at all. In fact, they like the chaos, fear and disorder guns bring to a society.

[bluestateguy]

8. You trust John Ashcroft and George W. Bush with those kinds of powers?

Give them more gun control laws and their enforcement will be very selective, i.e. only Arabs, inner city blacks and gays. They only think rural white men should be armed.

[BiggJawn]

17. Well, wouldn't that just be a surprise for them...

I'm a rural white man.
:evilgrin:

[billbuckhead]

19. If they break all the other Amendments, what good is the 2nd?

If the gun crowd is so worried about about civil rights why did they back the most facist repuKKKe candidate in history? The second amendment is the Constitutional guard dog that doesn't bark.

[DoNotRefill]

51. the idea...

is to prevent them from doing any more damage to ANY part of the BoR, and then eventually rolling them back across the board. Our side doing damage to the BoR should NOT be a priority, or even on the back burner. We're SUPPOSED to be the party of Civil Liberties. That means ALL Civil Liberties, not just the ones you personally happen to like.

[CO Liberal]

64. Again With the Lame "Gun Control = Racism" Ploy

It hasn't flown in the past, it won't fly now.

[MrBenchley]

98. You'll notice every racist humhole around spouts "gun rights"

at the drop of a sheet. So does every nitwit wearing a swastika...and gun shows are lousy with Nazi artifacts and hate literature.

[FeebMaster]

103. Well at least the gun grabbers have Bill O'Reilly on their side. (nt)

[MrBenchley]

109. Who the hell do you think you're kidding, feeb?

O'Really only pretends to be for gun control when he's trying to convince audiences he's a moderate....but nobody I know is actually stupid enough to be fooled.

[FeebMaster]

113. Right. Just like all the pro-gun Republicans in Congress

who never manage to actually do anything pro-gun.

[MrBenchley]

115. Golly, feeb, guess that means the real gun loonies are fucked

what a shame....nutcases unable to get anyone to pay attention to their lunatic demands.

[FeebMaster]

118. Yeah it's shame. I'd settle for people figuring out that the AWB

has nothing to do with machine guns though. It'd be nice to have an AWB thread without people crying that the streets are going to get flooded with machine guns in September.

[DoNotRefill]

49. Really? I thought Bin Laden would qualify as...

suffering a legal disability, preventing him from possessing a firearm in the United States. I've NEVER heard the NRA or Ashcroft advocating for Bin Laden to be able to have a gun in the US. I'm sure you'll provide a link to back up your assertation. I'm waiting....

[greendeerslayer]

11. You're right on target

So called "gun control" is a dead issue for all the reasons you mentioned. Demos need to throw that dead weight overboard. It has cost us dearly in the south and west. Personally I can't wait for the AWB to sunset. Hopefully the cost will come down and I can afford tp buy one.

[CO Liberal]

65. I Hope Congress Will Wise Up and Extend The Ban

There is no good reason whatsoever for those weapons to be on the streets, IMHO.

[NickB79]

69. If it does no good to keep the AWB, why keep it?

As is addressed in the link posted in post #34, the NIJ has found no benefit of the AWB in crime rate reduction.

[thebaghwan]

12. Yeah, I went out and bought me a 9mm after some guy tried to kill me

on the Freeway. I was putting along very little traffic on Wednesday night going home from school. This guy came on the freeway a little ahead of me and one lane to my right. As I drew even with him he suddenly cut right in front of me. there wasn't any other traffic within 100 yards or more in either of our lanes. I instinctively honked the horn and slowed down after about a 1 1/2 second delay, this guy woke up axndf the rage started. He hit his brakes and came to a full panic stop on the freeway. I just barely missed him. I let him take off and as I approached a freeway transition road I looked to my left to see where he was. I didn't recognize the car in a pack of a couple of cars but then something caught my attention as I got into the lane for the transition road. I looked left again, and here was this asshole coming at my at a 90 degree angle across at least 3 lanes of traffic. He was headed right toward me at a high speed. I slowed and he cut me off by driving across some dirt and grass right at the start of the transition. He just barely missed one of those big concrete Jersey barriers. Thyis is an elevated transition road where you can go north or south on the other freeway. I came to a stop in the arrow formed by the north and south bound lanes. This guy went up the north transition road and turned his car sideways to block the ramp and sat there for about 5 minutes. Then he just took off at a high rate of speed. All I ever did was honk at him and look his way and this guy wanted to kill me. To those in Seattle this was east bound 520 at the transition to North 405.

You know what I think, it is people like this that were involved in the torture in Iraq.

[Downtown Hound]

43. 57% of all gun owners

support the assault weapons ban, and I'm one of them. 87% of all Americans support it in general. Gun control isn't losing steam, it's just that with everything else that's happening in the world right now, people have other things on their minds.

[DoNotRefill]

52. Really?

then why did we get our asses handed to us by an outraged voting public right after the AW ban was passed? Bill Clinton stated in his SOTU address that Brady and the AW ban cost us seats in Congess.

If gun control is losing steam, why was the MMM only able to draw a few hundred people this time around? If the AW ban is so popular, why didn't even 1/100th of 1 percent of the population in the metro area show up? They couldn't even come up with 10 busloads of people to bring? Hell, when I lived in DC, we had FOUR TIMES the number of people that showed up this time LIVING IN MY ONE BUILDING.

[Downtown Hound]

61. Man, if you think

that the AWB was the reason that the Republicans took Congress in '94 you are seriously living in a fantasy world. Of course Clinton likes to blame the fact that it was the AWB that they lost Congress because it clears him of any responsibility for not doing many of the things he promised to do when he took office like provide universal health care. Clinton took office with a solid Dem majority in Congress promising to make many reforms, and he failed to make them. You can try and excuse him all you want, but the fact is, he sold out to special interests in the end. Now overall I liked Clinton, but he sold us out more than once, and we Dems need to accept that.

You gun nuts crack me up! Everywhere on these gun boards do I hear people scream that they won't surrender their 9mm or whatever to the government. News flash people, the 9mm is not one of the guns being targeted. Nor is your .45, your shotgun, your, .22, or your damn deer rifle. What's being considered is military-style weapons that are designed for one thing, to kill a lot of people and to kill them quickly. Poll after poll shows that a majority of gun owners and the public support COMMON SENSE GUN LEGISLATION such as banning these weapons. They don't support an overall gun ban, and neither do I.

Another thing about you gun fanatics, I notice that whenever you quote the second amendment you always only quote the latter part of it, which is "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." For some reason, you never quote the first line, "A well regulated militia being necessary for the security of a free state." Now why would you all omit this? Could it be because it completely punches a hole in your argument that you have the right to own whatever gun you choose? Are any of you in a militia? No? Well, then, guess what, the constitution doesn't guarantee you the right to own a gun. It only grants you such a right within the context of a militia. And if you really want to live by what the founding fathers had in mind when they wrote that amendment, why not get the gun they were thinking of? I will raise no objections to you owning a musket.

[NickB79]

68. Actually, yes, most of us are considered militia

The court-defined definition of the militia includes the organized militia and the unorganized militia. In the strictest court interpretation, all men who are citizens of the US and between the ages of 17 and 45 are considered part of the unorganized militia.

"CITE 10USC Sec 311
EXPCITE TITLE 10 - ARMED FORCES

Subtitle A - General Military Law
PART I - ORGANIZATION AND GENERAL MILITARY POWERS
CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA
HEAD Sec. 311. Militia: composition and class


STATUTE (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are -

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of National Guard or the Naval Militia."

[DoNotRefill]

129. that's an interesting interpretation...

"And if you really want to live by what the founding fathers had in mind when they wrote that amendment, why not get the gun they were thinking of? I will raise no objections to you owning a musket."

I guess you don't think the Internet is covered by the First Amendment, since they only had manual printing presses then, right?

[SidDithers]

2. Which "pinheads" would those be?

The ones who've lost children to gun violence?

Sid

[-..__...]

5. Misguided anger and denial.

Perhaps they should address the disease rather than one of the symptoms?

Feel good legislation and simple minded solutions (like banning assault weapons), is the wrong approach to a far greater problem.

[DoNotRefill]

53. It might be...

the people who lost loved ones because they were unable to defend themselves due to the stupid, racist, and classist gun laws currently on the books...

[The Zanti Regent]

3. Sorry, John Ashcroft will NEVER get my gun!

As long as the Nazi Republicans are in power, I don't want to surrender my guns!

[Freddie Stubbs]

67. Would you be willing to do so if a Democrat were in charge?

:shrug:

[MrBenchley]

99. Hell, NRA life member AssKKKroft wants you to BUY more guns

Part of every penny spent on guns and ammo goes right into his greasy pocket...

[FeebMaster]

104. Hahah. Seriously benchley, where do you come up with

this stuff.

Part of every penny spent on guns and ammo goes right into his greasy pocket...

[MrBenchley]

105. Gee, feeb, don't cry to me

because you're not bright enough to track campaign contributions.

[truthisfreedom]

4. i wonder if the turnout was so low because so many women participated in

the march a couple of weeks ago.

[-..__...]

6. There's low turnout...

and there's low turnout. Considering that in 2000 they had 750,000 marchers and 4 years later a paltry 2,000 show up, that's quite a considerable difference in numbers.

[John_H]

9. That could be a result of lack of organization, not disinterest.

750k do not spontaneously show up anywhere, those kinds of crowds get built by expensive organizational efforts.

I wouldn't be suprised, though, if the party pulled the plug on their support for this.

[DoNotRefill]

59. Or, it could be....

that most "normal people" in the Democratic Party realized that getting electorally smacked repeatedly over a hugely unpopular issue just to satisfy the few hundred really rabid anti-gunners was BEYOND a losing proposition.

[NickB79]

14. Or it could be because they are nearly bankrupt

I recall reading last year that the original Million Mom March organization was on the verge of bankruptcy and was forced to merge with Handgun Control Inc. just to stay afloat.

The Million Mom March is dead.

[billbuckhead]

70. And the NRA owes how much money? 63 million?

Baker resigns from NRA

"By Dec. 31, 1999, according to NRA's combined report, the
deficit had decreased to $-18.6 million, but climbed to $-45.8
million in 2000. The stock market drop last year appears to have
accounted for about $10 million of the decline to $-63.8 million by
the end of 2001."

<hww.nealknox.com/alerts/msg00090.html>

Even with the arms dealers, tobacco industry and the Republicans helping them, the NRA is in huge debt.

[MrBenchley]

100. Try $100 million plus

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/nation/7543030.htm

That's why the "TV station" they were going to buy ended up being one right wing dipshit streaming lies on the internet....

[0007]

15. Probably!

[John_H]

10. A good thing, in my view

since gun control is a losing battle that's fought at too high a political price. In 'merica you'll never ever ever get a gun ban, and there are so many guns already on the street that regulation won't make a dent in the crime rate. All that happens when we talk about gun control is losing a bunch of votes from gun owners who'd otherwise vote Dem.

If the kind of gun control we have a realistic chance of achieving would make a difference, I might be for fighting for it; but since it wouldn't, I'm not willing to lose the chance to put in place all the other Dem inititiatives I care about, just so I can say I'm 100 percent pure unadulturated liberal.

[DBoon]

71. Agreed...

In an ideal world, guns would be few and far between.

The political energy required to get effective gun control in the US is much better spent on other issues.

Creating more decent jobs for young adults with a high-school education would do more to lower the crime rate than any currently feasible gun law.

[JayS]

73. There is more than one "brand" of gun control. What we have...

...down here has gone over well...and actually seems to be working.

[Name removed]

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[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. basically assholes like you

(attack following tombstone is permissible....where's my finger emoticon when I need it?)

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[saigon68]

42. ADIOS

))))))))))))))))PING((((((((((((((((((((((

CAN'T WE JUST ALL GET ALONG- Rodney King March 3, 1991

the Honored Guest at a POLICE PINATA Party LOS ANGELES CA


RODNEY KING
AND THE LOS ANGELES RIOTS

[_NorCal_D_]

44. Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

Happy mother's day... :eyes:

[DoNotRefill]

58. given the turnout this time...

it would be more appropriate to call the 2000 march "The Seven Hundred and Fifty Quadrillion Mom March."

[Frangible]

16. gun control is a dead horse in 04

Why can't 2000 people march against torture in Iraq, Bush lying, or for John Kerry instead?

[billbuckhead]

21. Weapons regulation isn't as sexy as snuff films&raping young boys& girls

Kalishnikov said before his death he wished he had never invented his legendary assault rifle. He wished he would invented something that really made peoples lives better, a better argricultural product or something else.
Given the worsening instabiltity in this nation and the continued threat of terrorism both foreign and domestic, the action of adding more, cheaper and better weapons into this maalstrom only hastens this nations descent into hell. There's a bunch of bigger better gun disasters coming, soldiers coming home from war always bring home some damaged minds that still long to kill. Freaks like Tim McVeigh. Terrorists catching a crowd at ease and mowing them down with ak-47s like those tourists in Egypt. One of our beloved Dems will be shot by a sniper at some astonishing distance with the latest Barret 50cal sniper rifle or some other super weapon. More guns don't make life better unless your Dick Cheney who has over 100 guns including 30 machine guns or the latest up and coming third world warlord. It's all of one piece.

[FeebMaster]

23. Did he now?

That would be difficult, considering Kalashnikov isn't dead.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1059879,00.html

[billbuckhead]

28. Said before his death not that he died& here's the famous lawnmower quote

Kalashnikov

Some 55 years after his invention of the AK-47 (in 1947), Mikhail Kalashnikov remarked that he wished he had invented something else instead: A lawn mower.
<http://www.anecdotage.com/index.php?aid=1256>

He still has a chance to invent something else before his death.

[makhno]

79. You have a quote for that?

Every interview I've seen with the man suggests tremendous pride in the rifle, both from an engineering and a political point of view.

A German documentary once pictured Kalashnikov with a lawn mower of his own design. He mentioned that it had very simple and yet useful features only available on expensive commercial mowers. Maybe the misrepresentation came from that.

[NickB79]

38. And the 1994 AWB addresses none of the possible incidents

"Terrorists catching a crowd at ease and mowing them down with ak-47s like those tourists in Egypt."

Fully automatic weapons have already been HIGHLY regulated since 1934. The AWB doesn't even mention automatic weapons. A terrorist would have to smuggle in already illegal automatic rifles to commit this crime, something that is far beyond anything gun control laws could address.

"Freaks like Tim McVeigh."

McVeigh used a truckload of fertilizer and diesel fuel. Is there any fertilizer and diesel fuel control legislation pending?

"One of our beloved Dems will be shot by a sniper at some astonishing distance with the latest Barret 50cal sniper rifle or some other super weapon."

.50 BMG rifles have been produced since WWI, in both machinegun and sniper rifle versions. We've seen exactly ZERO uses of .50 BMG rifles in the US in the past 80 yrs since its introduction. Again, the AWB doesn't mention .50 caliber rifles.

[moondust]

20. Why don't the gun monkeys ever talk about the victims?

Thousands every year, lots of kids included. It is one of the most inhuman and embarrassing statistics in the western world.

Why have most of the other developed countries rejected the U.S. guns and ammo culture? Are they all crazy or something?

[billbuckhead]

22. We will never really defeat the RepuKKKes until we defeat the gun culture

It's all of one piece. Until an American Presidential candidate doesn't have to bow down to the gun culture by shooting a gun in the air like Saddam Hussein, this nation will be headed in the wrong direction doomed to more embarassing statistics and low grade domestic terror.

[JayS]

24. Question

The question that I ask you, given that the citizens of this country has always had easy access to firearms, is what has changed in people to make violence common, regardless of the type of weapon used. Solve this puzzle and the issue of access to guns becomes somewhat mute, does it not.

[moondust]

35. Answer.

Population explosion, intense competition, traffic, unemployment, low wages, betrayal, insane jealousy, countless stresses of modern life. Don't expect human nature to change anytime soon. Just add the tools of murder and shake vigorously.

[JayS]

37. Down my way, most of the violence comes from...

...gangs and the illegal drug industry, which tend to be one and the same. Couple that with using up all the jail space with those caught with illegal drugs, so that there is not enough room to keep violent criminals locked up, and you get the problem we have down here.

When I hear a politician talk about how he/she will solve the above by using, for instance, gun registration, then he/she might as well have made a statement that he/she will solve all our nation's ills by tap-dancing and farting.

If you want to know why us gun-owning Southernors turn away from many Northern candidates that push their brand of gun control then understand that we are looking for someone that is a little more realistic about where the problems lay.

[billbuckhead]

50. Are you really a southerner because you didn't spell it right?

The American south has one of the highest murder rates in the western world and highest incarceration rates, for white people, let alone minorities. The American South also has one the highest gun ownership rates and weakest enforcement of our feeble gun laws. Gee, how could anyone miss that correlation?

[DoNotRefill]

57. then why does the "murder capital" of the US...

seem to shift from Detroit to DC, depending on what year you look at? Wy isn't Atlanta or another "Southern" city at the top of the list? And don't bother saying DC is a "Southern" city...it's no more "Southern" than Philly.

[billbuckhead]

63. You gun guys have all the info

Bring some statistics to prove me wrong, just comparing states. Quit picking DC which is even self governed.

[DoNotRefill]

123. Ahhhh....So....

you want me to "cherry pick" stats for you?

Here's something interesting: The highest percentage of homicides from the various states (excepting Florida and DC) that involved guns:

Nebraska, is highest in the nation, (excepting Florida and DC because they're not listed in the BJS report, that's not me omitting the data, it's them omitting the data from the chart) at 75.0%
Penn. has 73.3%
Rhode Island has 71.1%
Arizona has 71.5%
Michigan has 70.6%
Georgia has 70.3%
Maryland has 69.2%
Ill. has 65.8%
Conn. has 64.9%
Alabama 64.4%


Here's something to make you laugh: Select per capita homicide and non-negligent manslaughter rates for 2002's UCR by state:

Alabama: 6.8
California: 6.8
Florida: 5.5
Georgia: 7.1
Illinois: 7.5
La.: 13.2
MD: 9.4
Miss: 9.2
Nevada: 8.3
New Mexico: 8.2
Puerto Rico: 20.1
Texas: 6.0
Virginia: 5.3
Washington D.C.: 46.2

This obviously isn't complete, but the top 3 highest rates are Wash. DC, at 46.2, Puerto Rico at 20.1, and Louisiana at 13.2 per 100,000 inhabitants. As you can see, Alabama and California have the exact same per capita homicide rate as each other.Georgia's is less than Ill. Miss. is less than Maryland's.

Interesting stuff, yes?

[DonP]

80. Chicago is the murder capital - again

Please give "credit" where it's properly due.

With some of the most restrictive gun laws in the country, we "won" again last year with over 600 murders, the vast majority of them intergang warfare related to the drug trade.

The answer is to pass more "feel good" gun control laws and start blaming adjacent states for the guns on the streets. "It's all Indiana and Iowa's fault dammit!"

[JayS]

82. How big is Chicago now? n/t

n/t

[DonP]

83. As of 2000 - 2,896,016 (ntxt)

[JayS]

84. Wow! We are at about 1.5 million with 20 or so murders this year.

n/t

[JayS]

62. It's called late night spelling. What is the source of your...

...information.

[DoNotRefill]

56. ummm....wrong.

One main source: Drug prohibition. This has ancillary effects, such as increases in gang membership and activity, along with the profit motive for the most vicious capitalists we've ever seen on the planet.

One interesting note: Let's say we made all guns magically disappear from the US by passing a law and confiscating them all (an impossibility, but we're pretending here). Given that it's the drug wars that are fueling the violence, and drugs are generally illegal, and importing them is illegal, too, what makes you think that these people wouldn't just import guns along with the cocaine? They get hundreds, if not thousands of tons of cocaine into the country every year. They'd just bring in guns, too.

[solinvictus]

31. Defeat Gun Culture?

Even within the Democratic Party? Not happening, Bill. Guns are here, they're going to be here, and they'll always be in private hands. What do you propose, confiscation? Try that and the Iraqi rebellion will seem like a Boy Scout group playing "Capture the Flag".

[billbuckhead]

45. I propose selling no more high output weapons and a majority agrees

No one said anything about confication except you.

[Cicero]

48. In another thread...

...we remember Diane Feinstein's famous quote, "If I could get 51 votes in the Senate... Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in."

(Admittedly in the context of the AWB.)

Later,

[DoNotRefill]

124. Uh huh...

the majority agrees...which is why the big, heavily hyped Brady campaign/MMM2004 national march to "stop the assault" pulled in a few hundred supporters TOTAL, despite being held in the city with such a large population and such a large problem with murder, and WHERE THE BRADY CAMPAIGN IS HEADQUARTERED. I wonder if that counted organizers and speakers that showed up, too? How many employees does the Brady Campaign/MMM have in DC? That'd be VERY interesting to know, and would TRULY be embarrasing if the number of employees is larger than the number of people who showed up at the pathetic rally. Given the truly PATHETIC turnout, it wouldn't surpise me.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[crossroads]

41. Correction: Moron is the way to spell

moran. You must be a Repuke!

[DoNotRefill]

55. then we're well and truly fucked. n/t

[DBoon]

72. Defeating a culture is a difficult slow task

We need to stop glorifying violence and feeding revenge fantasies. We need a culture based on trust and public engagement, not fear and "bolt the doors" private disengagement.

Gun ownership per se isn't the issue - the American gun culture is.

Michael Moore was right, it isn't the guns. Canada (and Finland BTW) have higher rates of gun ownership than the US. What they lack is the US violence-filled macho "shoot 'em up" culture.

Gun onwership itself I don't mind - the mindset of many "gun advocates" scares me deeply.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Frangible]

34. Sorry, but that's supurious

The AWB hasn't lowered crime, and that's a proven, scientific fact. Saying anything else is not the truth.

If you don't believe me, that's fine, but read the NIJ report on it at least... you owe yourself that much:

http://www.ncjrs.org/pdffiles1/173405.pdf

Therefore, the AWB is not logical. It is an anti-crime bill that does not reduce crime. It serves no useful purpose.

Most of the homicides (and violent crime) in this country aren't even committed with guns.

My state, Montana, has a lower crime rate than anywhere in Canada with a similar population density, yet a much higher gun ownership rate. Logic, indeed.

So indeed, why are people so fixated over banning weapons that have almost nothing to do with crime, when the law has been proven ineffective, and America faces far greater problems?

Crime's a problem in the US, and I don't think anyone likes to see people victimized. But scapegoating a type of gun incorrectly will not help.

This issue will only polarize people against us.

[NickB79]

40. I was a victim, and I think this obsession with gun control is insane

Victim of years of family abuse that cummulated with me using a rifle to finally stop my father from beating my mother, sister, brother and me when I was 18. I don't hear many here talking about my kind of victimization and the use of firearms in self-defense. Why is that?

[billbuckhead]

46. What about all the fathers that use guns to scare their kids or kill them

Or their wives or coworkers. It's on Action News every night if it bleeds but they don't tell you when the intimidation by guns works like it does on Iraqi inmates. All the kids that don't go school because their scared. All the wives that don't leave their abusive husband because he threatened her with a gun and shes's a Christian and won't kill him back.

[NickB79]

66. I was 150 lbs, my mom was 130 lbs

And my dad was 220 lbs, a former high-school wrestling star who still threw around 50-lb hay bales like they were made of styrofoam. He scared us plenty of times with forks, bats, and his own fists. If he wanted to kill us, he sure as hell didn't need a gun.

[DoNotRefill]

54. and why don't the gun control monkeys....

ever talk about the people who defend themselves with guns each year, potentially saving their lives? That number sure as hell is much larger. The lowest figure I've seen is 70,000 defensive gun uses a year, and the highest is 2.5 MILLION a year. It's probably someplace in between. There were fewer than 10,000 gun related homicides or accidental firearms deaths in the US for the last year that figures are available from the DoJ.

The US doesn't have the most advanced "guns and ammo culture". That belongs to the Swiss. You should visit Switzerland on August 1st of any year, which is their version of the 4th of July in the US. On second thought,, maybe you shouldn't, since you'd probably have kittens seeing regular people on mass transit running around with machineguns.

[slaveplanet]

36. Interesting

//whose 18-year-old daughter was shot to death in 2001 at a California mental health department office by a patient using an illegal weapon. Wilcox said assault weapons don't belong on the streets.//

notice it just says an illegal weapon was used...it doesn't specify that it was an assault weapon that was used in the commission of that crime, nor does it specify if the perp was a felon or not...that would make any gun illegal for that perp,in which case there are plenty of laws already in existence to cover that.

[The_Casual_Observer]

39. NPR message on this was that nobody showed up

Nothing about the content. It was reported almost as a satire piece.

[DoNotRefill]

47. 2000????? NPR reports "hundreds" attended.

"A crowd in the hundreds gathers for the Million Moms March on the West Lawn of the U.S. Capitol. The turnout was far smaller than the tens of thousands who showed up for the first Million Moms March, four years ago."

http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1890084

The "3/4 of a million marchers in 2000" figure cited above in the thread is crap, unless the recent pro-choice march drew 10 million. I was at both, and there was no way that the MMM crowd in '99 was even 1/5 of the size of the last pro-choice rally a few weeks ago. I didn't attend this MMM, because I spent time with my mother, who is ill.

[DaveSZ]

60. Good

I hope Kerry is smart and doesn't make this an issue.

[JayS]

74. Sadly, he shows signs of doing so. n/t

n/t

[HarveyBrooks]

75. If I live to be 732 years old...

I'll never understand why so many people seem to literally WORSHIP guns. Really sad.

[JayS]

76. I think the attitude that you will find among those that own guns...

...or those that grew up around them is not so much a love of firearms as it is a realization that the most commonly known "brand" of gun control will do nothing about the problems they want addressed.

[HarveyBrooks]

77. So...

what "brand" of gun control will address the problems they want addressed? From what I've seen most gun nuts are against all "brands."

[JayS]

78. Something along these lines.

From: http://www.psn.gov/Review.asp?section=13

QUOTE
Under Project Safe Neighborhoods, United States prosecutors are ready to bring cases involving illegal gun use to federal court. This means that if anyone is caught with an illegal gun, they probably won’t be entitled to bail — instead, they'll go straight to jail. And, if that’s not bad enough, if they are convicted in federal court, they can spend up to 10 years in jail. There are no second chances under this program.
QUOTE


QUOTE
If you’re caught with a gun you cannot legally possess, you can face harsh penalties in federal prison with no possibility of parole. And, if you have three or more prior violent felony or serious drug offense convictions, you face a minimum of 15 years in prison without parole.
QUOTE


QUOTE
Even if you are not in one of these groups, you have committed a crime and can go to federal prison if you help anyone in one of the categories above get a gun or ammunition. It may not even matter whether you knew the person was in one of the groups: if you buy a gun for someone else and lie on the federal form about who the gun is for, you have committed a federal crime.
QUOTE

QUOTE
Whether or not you have ever been convicted of any crime, if you use or brandish, display, carry, or possess a firearm in a way designed to further or carry out a drug-trafficking crime or a federal crime of violence, you can be charged — in addition to the crime itself — with a federal firearms crime. In fact, you can be convicted of this offense even if the gun is not on you! The lightest sentence you can get for this crime is 5 years minimum, with no parole. The sentence must be served in addition to any other sentence for the drug trafficking or violent crime. And, if you get convicted of having a gun during a second violent crime or drug-trafficking offense — even during the same trial — you’re automatically going to prison for at least 30 years.
QUOTE

[makhno]

85. That's the fundamental fallacy

what "brand" of gun control will address the problems they want addressed

You don't use gun control as a way to solve social issues created by the growing class and racial polarization in this country. The war on drugs is also to a large extent responsible for creating problems out of thin ari that now "want to be addressed."

Gun control is ostensibly promoted to reduce crime, but examples such as NYC have shown that it has absolutely nothing to do with trends in crime rates. Gun ownership has been practically illegal in the city for decades, and violent crime has followed its own merry path depending primarily on economic conditions and law enforcement tactics. The situation is similar in most big cities, I'd think. That's where the gun crime is most prevalent and that's also where guns are often illegal.

[JayS]

87. We have addressed this somewhat here in Texas with good...

...results so far. Of course we can't get away from the War On Some Drugs but we have moved drug possession from the criminal courts to a medical one. Unfortunately, the illegal drug trade is still a major problem and one that politicians want to keep trying the some old unworkable strategies to fight. The trade in illegal drugs still funds the gangs that use the cash to buy weapons and shoot at anything and everything.

[DoNotRefill]

126. Ummm...the appropriate "brand"...

is to make the punishments for real crime harsh, and throw offender's asses in jail.

It's easily possible to put the people convicted of violent crime in jail. All you'd have to do is let the people who broke the stupid-ass malum prohibitorum laws OUT, and the jails would be virtually 3/4ths empty.

[DoNotRefill]

125. Me too, except that for me...

I'll never understand why so many people are so terrified of them.

Take machineguns, for example. Legally owned machineguns are NEVER used in crimes, and there are a LOT of them out there. Yet lots of people have kittens at the thought of machinegun ownership being legal. I just don't get it. If you want to get an illegal machinegun (which are much more likely to be used in crime) to not be used in crime, the SAFEST POSSIBLE FUCKING THING YOU CAN DO IS GET IT ON THE NFRTR and make it legal. But mention the word "amnesty" and people freak...Go figure.

[dawn]

81. Sorry, but I agree with the Moms about the assault rifle ban.

Do you *really* need an assault rifle?

I support people's rights to own handguns, but I think assault rifles should be taken off the street. (Are these the automatic ones that spray tons of bullets when you pull the trigger? Sorry, I don't know anything about guns.)

[makhno]

86. Assault rifles have been banned since 1934

This law has little to do with what is commonly perceived to be an "assault weapon", ie. a military-type automatic rifle capable of firing bursts.

Here's an informative link with graphical illustration of the law and its absurdity: AWB in pictures.

[DonP]

88. It's not about machine guns

The assault weapons ban is not about machine guns.

It's about semi-automatic weapons, the kind that fire one shot every time you pull the trigger, just like Grandpa's Browqning Auto 5 shotgun from 1948.

No "bullet hoses" or "spray firing from the hip" rhetorical garbage.

The Brady group has purposely misrepresented facts to confuse people into thinking that machine guns will be available in Wal Maret of they don't get things their way.

And FWIW, it's not about who "needs" one type of rifle or another. Collectors buy and use them for target shooting. No one "needs" a semi automatic military looking rifle any more than most people "need" more than one bathroom in their home or "need" an "assault" style Jeep, another military look alike.

Besides, who gets to decide what I "need"? Sarah Brady sure doesn't with all 2,000 of her devoted followers, sorry.

You don't have to prove a "need" for anything that's legal.

[Crachet2004]

122. The gun control folks have misrepresented the facts the entire debate,

And that is one reason they have lost the large following they once enjoyed.

Two other reasons are 911 and George Bush. Another is the Patriot Act. They have the power of 'Patriot' in Iraq, and look what it has led to! Tyranny, murder, torture, humiliation and rape! Which is exactly why the Framers included the Right to Bear Arms in the Constitution.

Did you ever wonder why it is second out of ten? Because it is that important in the hierarchy of Rights needed to maintain Liberty!

Honestly, with a sort of preview of what can happen in this country-and in some cases already is-unfolding in Iraq right now, how can ANYONE believe the Founders were somehow wrong in their insight?

By the turnout at the 'million' mom march, not many any longer do.

Hopefully, our Democratic leaders and John Kerry will take heed. All Gun Control language should be removed from our platform...and we will win in a landslide.

[JayS]

89. The automatic guns that spray a ton of bullets when...

...you pull the trigger exist only in Hollywood. :)

[DoNotRefill]

128. Nah, I've got a few...

they're beltfed machineguns that take unlimited belts of ammunition. I have fired off around 50+ kilograms of ammo (around 900 rounds, an entire case)through one of these in around one minute, and in a single burst. Of course, it destroyed the barrel of the gun due to the excess heat generated and the fact that the heat softened the barrel to the point that the barrel eroded rather quickly. It also got so hot that it changed the color of the barrel shroud from a metallic color to a nice bright purple. Why I wanted a purple gun, I'll never know. The smell of the cordite got to me, I guess. If I'd fired another 500-1000 rounds through it in that single burst, I'm POSITIVE that the gun would have exploded. I sprayed WD-40 on the barrel to cool it down, and it burst into flame, it was that hot.

These were in no way affected by the 1994 ban, the subject of this thread.

[greendeerslayer]

90. etc.

If you don't really know anything about guns why even discuss the issue? You make a point and then confess you don't have any idea what you're talking about.
As far as "need" who is to tell me what I need or don't? No one really needs nice french wine or a 1 acre front yard or a swimming pool or any number of things. In fact we don't really "need" freedom do we? We could live in tyranny.

[MrBenchley]

91. You know all you need to know about guns...

Don't pay any attention to the "it's only cosmettics" crowd...that was shown to be a lie when the gun lobby scuttled their own disgraceful "immunity from liability" bill

[greendeerslayer]

107. I know...

...quite a bit about guns, I've been safely owning and using them since I was about fourteen years old. I am in fact a green deer slayer. Occasionally out here on the farm I kill an offending rattler or other varmit. Am I willing to defend myself against two-legged critters as well? Hell yes!
The AWB is ENTIRELY COSMETIC! It is still legal to buy a new firearm capable of using high-capacity clips. This new firearm can have a pistol grip.
The AWB is total bullshit. I can also buy a used (pre-ban) firearm with the scary flash hider and bayonet lug and as many high-capacity clips as I can afford.
That is what the AWB did, made the sale of high-capacity firearms illegal if they posess a flash hider or bayonet lug. That's all.
I love DU, I've been a registered demo my entire life and I have never voted for a repuke. At this point I doubt if I ever will. But you guys(Tom Paine, you're right on) drive me crazy with this (it can only be described as) anti-gun hysteria. Do you all want demos to win in the south and west? I do.

[DoNotRefill]

127. Dawn....

We're not talking about automatic guns that spray tons of bullets. We're talking about semi-automatic guns which fire one bullet for each time you pull the trigger.

Double-action revolvers fire one round every time you pull the trigger, for as many bullets are in the gun. Semi-automatic handguns fire one round every time you pull the trigger for as many bullets are in the gun. EVERY police officer in the United States carries one of these (DA revolvers or SA handguns) while on duty, and most carry them when off duty. The "assault weapons" we're talking about here (that were banned in 1994) fire one round every time you pull the trigger, for as many bullets are in the gun.

The automatic guns that fire "tons of bullets" when you pull the trigger once were heavily regulated in 1934, and are in NO WAY AT ALL affected IN THE MOST REMOTE WAY by the 1994 ban that is about to expire, NOT EVEN A LITTLE, TINY BIT.

[tom_paine]

92. The Busheviks have taught MANY people about the virtues of Gun Ownership

When the Nazis, Busheviks, or other monsters come for YOU, would you rather have a slim chance or NO CHANCE?

Would you rather have a possibility that you might take a couple Nazis or Busheviks with you or meekly follow them into the back of their truck for transport to the Camp?

NOW we all know what the Busheviks are about.

We must be about Liberty, and about the Self-Reliance Ethic that drove the Founding Fathers.

We Free Americans are all that's left of the Founding Fathers' legacy, except an increasingly weak, irrelevant, and parasitized Constitution and Bill of Rights.

[MrBenchley]

93. Amazing

how many "law abiding responsible gun owners" turn out to be harboring this loony-tunes "I need my gun for the glorious revolution" fantasy bubbling just under the surface.

The sad part is, every one in a while, one of you sweethearts loses ALL touch with reality and shoots the mailman. Or blows up a Federal Builidng and daycare center.

Meanwhile, speaking of the Busheviks and guns, which nutcase right wing lobbying group held a "Pimp for the Chimp" rally in Pittsburgh just the other day?

"PITTSBURGH -- A man whose son was killed in the Columbine High School shootings literally walked in his child's shoes to the National Rifle Association convention, where he hoped Vice President Dick Cheney would address the federal assault weapons ban set to expire in September.
Tom Mauser, whose son Daniel was killed with an assault weapon in the Littleton, Colo., killings five years ago Tuesday, said continuing the ban is common sense.
Assault weapons "are the weapons of gangs, drug lords and sick people," Mauser said before his three-block march to the convention, which runs through Sunday. "It is a weapon of war and we don't want this war on our streets."
Mauser entered the convention hall where the NRA was meeting, but was turned away by a security guard as several conventioneers applauded. A couple of conventioneers yelled "Get a life" and "Vote for Bush." "
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/3015989/detail.html

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[FeebMaster]

119. Sporterization was how they got around the Bush Import Ban.

They call rifles that are legal according to the AWB "post-ban."

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[Trashman]

120. Commen sense gun laws

The AWB was/is a failure. It has had ten years to prove it’s worth. So far I can’t see how it has done any good. As mentioned above you can buy a post ban AR15. It is completely legal. Though it has no flash suppressor or bayonet lug, it is a virtual clone of an AR15 preban. BTW a preban AR15 can still be legally bought too, they are more expensive though.

I often wonder how many elections Gun Control has cost us? “Saving Lives?” The same argument could be made about automobiles. How many people need one that will travel faster than the speed limit? How many teenagers and drunken drivers kill people with them? I’ll bet a whole lot more than firearms do. Shouldn’t we require stricter test to get a drivers license?

[MrBenchley]

121. Gee, far as I can tell

gun control hasn't cost any elections...and the lack of it has cost up JFK's second term and President Bobby Kennedy in 68.

"Shouldn’t we require stricter test to get a drivers license?"
Gee, we DO require a test to drive. All that's required to buy a gun at a gun show is enough dough. And in many gun stores, any diseased specimen can wander in and buy one while the gun dealer winks.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=32949