AP: More Bad News May Be on the Way for Bush

[MallRat]

By TERENCE HUNT, AP White House Correspondent

WASHINGTON - In one of the darkest weeks of his administration, President Bush (news - web sites) saw America's reputation sullied, the U.S. effort in Iraq (news - web sites) damaged and his own campaign for re-election clouded. And more bad news may be on the way.

(snip)

Pollsters and presidential experts are scratching their heads over how the prisoner scandal will affect Bush's re-election hopes.

"There's such a big question mark there, it's unlike anything we've seen before," said Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center.

"The public is very critical of (Bush's) management of Iraq. They don't think he has a clear plan for bringing it to a successful conclusion, but a thin majority of the public has been hanging in with that it was the right decision to go to war," Kohut said. "This could be the event which makes people say 'Oh, we did make a mistake.'"


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&u=/ap/20040508/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_bleak_week_1

[DAGDA56]

1. Cognitive Dissonance has hit the pollsters...

...just like it's hit the freepers. When everything you know is wrong, but you can't accept it. God, that must hurt your head.

[lancdem]

2. I also think this scandal is just beginning

Bush's approval ratings already are 45-49 percent in the most recent polls. We'll have to see what happens. It may take time for the full impact to be seen politically.

[MallRat]

4. When the REALLY BAD pictures come out...

...I'm guessing it's going to cost Bush 5 points.

And if heads don't roll within the Administration, by the time the smoke clears, he'll be flirting with core constituency kind of numbers. <40% is not out of the question given these circumstances.

-MR

[madmax]

8. Ahhhh, but will they come out?

The powers that be may put a lock on that. I don't believe our Fourth Estate has the guts to go up against the administration. x(

[grytpype]

16. Inevitably.

I am amazed they haven't come out yet. I think this is like a continuation of the two-week "hold" on the first round of pictures. Those were the least bad. The ones to come are the rapes and murders. They will come out, and that will be the end of Bush.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. CBS and SLY HERSH

Went againts the wishes... and yesterday Myers got a tongue lashing for it... deserdevly so

[Jane Austin]

49. I wonder how the religious right is handling the pictures.

Not the fraudulent leaders, but the sincere followers who try to be good people and to raise their kids right and try to be patriotic.

One of the things that sets fundamentalists apart from other Christians, in my view, is sex - - or at least talking about or looking at sex - - especially homo-erotic sex.

To suddenly have to look at and talk about these pictures in connection with a war they've been told to support and in connection with their hero, GW Bush, should be causing enormous static in their brains.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

53. I know some sincerely religious people who support bush

and I can tell you how they are handling it: they aren't. It's too easy to change the channel, stop looking at the paper (if you ever did), etc.

It causes a HUGE case of cognitive dissonance (as poster #1 pointed out) and that is VERY psychologically uncomfortable. People will do almost anything to avoid it.

Those who are emotionally more healthy will want to resolve their cognitive dissonance and look at the pictures and make a decision.

But then I'm not at all sure bush has a lot of emotionally healthy, stable supporters. Honestly.

[DemosthenesOfTheWest]

55. The religious right is without any morals in the conventional sense.

Their ethical reasonings consists of looking up scriptural quotes to support whatever bigoted campaign to purify America they are carrying out at the moment. They will literally be the last to condemn Bush or his lieutenants for unethical behavior.

[Jane Austin]

56. That is so true of their leaders, IMO.

But not necessarily of the members of those churches, who seek to have "a personal releationship with Jesus Christ" and who take their religion very seriously.

The fact that they are told by their leaders that liberal Christianity isn't Christianity, keeps them listening to some bad people, but it doesn't mean they themselves are bad.

They are Scout leaders, home-room mothers, soccer coaches, Habitat for Humanity volunteers, Meals on Wheels volunteers, Soup Kitchen helpers, and more. They love their kids and they love their neighbors' kids.

I do think their leadership is a bunch of charlatans.

[daleo]

65. I wonder if the Bible has any passages that support torture.

Or could be construed that way, by one who looked hard for it. I really don't know. The church used torture during the Inquisition, so there is precedent of a sort.

[DemosthenesOfTheWest]

66. That's why Democrats must be careful.

America, for better or worse, is a highly religious country and that will not change in the near future. So, we aren't going to make any headway attacking religion. Instead we must try and appeal to the good and rational in people across the board. And we need to keep in mind that this will take some time; many people get there news in a highly filtered fashion. Even as we speak, average Joe is being told on the radio and from the pulpit that all that happened in Iraq was a little bit of college fraternity tom foolery and that Muslims should be grateful that that's all that's happened to them so far after there centuries of persecuting women and Christians.

[Mike Niendorff]

69. I wish I could agree with that

but I can't.

I spent the first 20 years of my life in the fundamentalist movement, so I do speak from some direct level of experience here.

Based on what I saw while involved in that movement, I think are *very* few people there -- on the order of 2-3%, at most -- who "take their religion very seriously".

They take their "culture war" seriously.
They take the Republican Party seriously.
They take their hatred of "the left" seriously.

But they emphatically DO NOT take their professed religion seriously. At all.

Hell, if George W. Bush were caught on film personally committing rape and torture, they'd still find some convoluted way to blame it on "the liberal media". And, of course, we'd all be declared "unpatriotic" for talking about it. "Undermining the war effort", etc, etc. You know the drill.

Anyway, I seriously think it's a major mistake to hold out hope that these phony "Christians" will someday engage in some sort of "return to their roots" and will reject what the right wing is doing. Their roots *are* the in right wing, to the point of exclusivity. Their pretenses of "Christianity", by contrast, are shallow, ill-examined and politically self-serving (just like their pretenses of "patriotism", "family values", and a host of other things that look good on bumper stickers but are devoid of substance in these people's actual practice).

</.02>


MDN

[indepat]

74. For these brain-challenged give Bush and his lieutenants a blank check

for he is doing God's work.

[0007]

76. The callers are becoming rather mild and slow to come in on

the Washington Journal on c-span. But you'll always have those diehards that give up.

Check 'em out at the freeper site. freerepublic.com

[Barad Simith]

77. Being surrounded by the religious right, I can tell you

The way they're "handling it" is by being disgusted by the so-called liberal media, which (in their minds) wants to undermine our efforts in Iraq for political gain.

In other words, this administration can do no wrong. They believe the only wrongdoing is on the part of those who oppose this administration.

[boxster]

3. Call me a pessimist, but....

if people are ignorant enough to still support Bush after everything else he's done this term, this unfortunately isn't going to sway a lot of people.

I believe the recent CNN poll said that 36% of the public didn't see a significant problem with the torture, etc. That's a big chunk of Bush's support and is probably his solid base. Those people aren't likely to be swayed by anything he does.

Ah, blind faith. Gotta love it.

[Zookeeper]

12. Yes, I'm incredulous at some of the comments...

I've heard through the media excusing the abuse. Some lunkheads argue that since the guards were trying to get information that would assist our soldiers, however they did it was justified. And of course, the argument that it was justified because of the abuse of the corpses of the contractors (even though the prison abuse happened first).

Did anyone catch Rush's statement to the effect of, "It was not that big of a deal. It was like a fraternity prank, just guys blowing off some steam!"

SOME people will just NEVER get it! I don't trust that this will have any effect on Bush supporters.

[July]

50. Couldn't agree with you more.

I'm bracing myself for freeperish comments at the family picnic next month. I've decided that all I'm going to say is "I have no respect for apologists for sadists." Got any other ideas?

[Lorien]

79. You might want to familiarize yourself

with this information: http://www.hermes-press.com/nazification_step3.htm

It is no longer the time to "play nice" and "keep the peace" with the neo-cons among us; we need to speak up while we still can, otherwise America is entirely lost.

[belle]

80. I like this Daria quote, myself:

"Aren't you even a *little* afraid there might be a hell?"

[stopbush]

57. Had the story been that atheists, gays or Dems were the ones doing the

torture, you can bet that Rush and the RW would have been condemning the torture for what it is - disgusting.

The *college prank* excuse only applies to those who are above the law and all sense of decency, ie: Rush and the rethugs.

[boxster]

60. "College prank" has to be the single most asinine thing

that's been said about these atrocities. Rush needs to pull his head out of his ass and see this stuff for what it is - sick, evil and wrong.

And, I've got news for Rush. If college pranks involve forcing people to have sex while you film them, then the pranksters should go to jail.

Calling this a prank is like calling Oxycontin "just like aspirin".

[Mike Niendorff]

70. re: "college prank"

This does, however, tell us something about the kind of colleges that today's Republicans attended.


MDN

[Zookeeper]

86. I was reading a Freeper thread today...

and a few of them said the guards were either Democrats or "Democrat-like." And a few days ago, a couple of Freepers made the suggestion that the guards were, "Liberal/Socialist plants."

[Paradise]

78. funny you should say:

"Did anyone catch Rush's statement to the effect of, 'It was not that big of a deal. It was like a fraternity prank, just guys blowing off some steam!'"

if you haven't already seen it, you've just got to watch the repeat of bill moyers' "now" tomorrow, sunday. at 11:00 p.m. edt on channel 13 wnet. great show, as usual, and, at the very end, moyers puts rush's very own words to powerful use!!! :nuke:

http://www.pbs.org/now/sched.html?station=WNET&c=get_station&zipcode=11787&snum=2

[Zookeeper]

85. I saw that on Friday...

It was very effectively done. I wish more people could see Rush's words and those images put together.

[devinsgram]

24. Yes, and that 36%

would rather have their tongues cut out, before they would ever admit that * is worse than Clinton. Let me see, b___ j__ on one hand and torture, rape and murder on the other. Yeah, thats a tough call alright (sarcasm).

[UpInArms]

26. this morning, I had to think

about how to explain necrophilia to my 10 year old - I would have rather explained a consensual sexual encounter such as a blowjob.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

61. Beautiful.

It reasonates with me. (I remember)

The shit we have to put up with.

[boxster]

58. Agreed. Clinton looks like an angel...

compared to this administration. The sheer, utter hypocrisy of this administration and its supporters is simply astonishing.

One thing these scandals has done is make the Clinton witch hunts look even more partisan and ludicrous. Republicans acted like Clinton's actions were the end of civilization. Those same Republicans are some of the lead apologists for the current administration.

[crossroads]

32. Is it blind faith or blatant stupidity?

It is not what he is for or what these freeble have seen on his lack of leadership lately. They support him because of what he is *against* like abortion, gays, welfare, etc. IMO, the cons core base can't/won't see beyond the flag/Rush/Bible/Faux news. It might require them to think for themselves! :boring:

[kysrsoze]

34. Like the chicken and the egg - they both feed off each other

Blind faith and stupidity, that is. It makes me so mad to think how f*cking stupid, shallow and amoral so many of my fellow citizens are. Where did the real America go?

[boxster]

59. I think it's mostly ignorance.

I think that people have become so introspective and so self-centered that they just don't care anymore.

And, hey, if it doesn't affect me, why should I care?

Besides, who can be bothered with atrocities when the Friends finale is on!?!?!

/extreme bitter sarcasm

[saigon68]

42. IF THE ANAL RAPE OF A CHILD DOESN'T AFFECT THEM

There is no hope anymore.

The second wave of asshole troop apologists was beaten back again yesterday here.

These apologist cretins come out of the woodwork and attack honest patriotic Vets who have the temerity to suggest there is something wrong with the military.

They are all over and THEY ARE FASCIST PIGS

[Jackpine Radical]

45. Apparently only CONSENSUAL anal sex is forbidden

in the Fundie universe.

[boxster]

62. Good one.

Geez, ain't that the truth? Wow.

[belle]

81. Yup.

[Arugula Latte]

67. Well,

that still leaves about 10 percent to work with -- those fringe ten percent who are inclined to support the Peabrain but are wavering. The hardcore 35 percent are hardcore -- but not enough to elect Dumbass. We need to strip Bush's support down to his barebones base: fundies, corporate criminals, and the truly stupid.

[NNN0LHI]

5. This could be the event which makes people say 'Oh,we did make a mistake?'

>>>"This could be the event which makes people say 'Oh, we did make a mistake.'"<<<

I cant believe the stuff I read some times.

Don

[readmylips]

6. The religious crusade against the evil do-ers....

will take the airwaves and the masses will fall back in line. Remember right or wrong, bush has been appointed by their god. If the media cuts the religious crusaders and bush by the knees, it's all over for bush.

[Robbien]

7. Today, to call yourself a Republican

you must support War Mongering, War Profiteering, and now Torture.

What a sad picture.

[Wind Dancer]

20. I have to agree

as I listen to the spin and the ongoing belief that this is not torture, merely the likes of fraternity pranks and limited to a few bad apples. Plus, so many think the entire Muslim population is evil and that innocent Iraqis are responsible for 9/11.

There are no words. What will it take for those in this country to ever wake up?

[Atlanticist]

43. Where are the sane Republicans these days ?

I recall Jim Jeffords saw what Bush was all about and got out pdq. I understand there are liberal republicans like Olympia Snowe about (and even Colin Powell?). Where are they, and why aren't they speaking out ?

Surely in a generation, Rockerfeller Republicans haven't been completely extinguished ? I know 1994 brought in some hard-right idealogues, but come off it - in Britain there are still plenty of leftish Tories in the Conservative party.

What has happened to Republicanism in America ? It seems like a narrow sect these days.

[The Zanti Regent]

63. Look at Specter

See how he kissed Bushes ass when Toomey was on his feet. And now, Arlen keeps kissing Bush's ass.

Please DUers give what you can to Joe Hoeffel to KO Mr Magic Bullet Man once and for all at

http://www.hoeffelforsenate.com/

[snippy]

73. They are afraid.

[PaDUer]

9. Are the pix

their exit strategy to get out within a few months thus blaming the reserves/guards to save face even though it might be tough internationally?

[Karenina]

15. Stanwyck's post tells us clearly

What the pix are REALLY about:

stanwyck Fri May-07-04 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
24. I think it's important to note

since I'm the mother of a 20-yr. old Marine headed for Baghdad this month, that this generation of troops has a very different mindset on images and privacy than many of us do. These young people have grown up with constant video, TIVO, cell phones, DVDs. CDs, iChat, picture phones, text messaging, and laptops. When my kids were teenagers they'd come home from being with their friends, still talking on their cell phones to their friends, and fire-up the computer to chat online with their friends. Constant access. Constant communication. Plus, these young people have been videotaped themselves, by their parents, coaches, schools, security cameras at the mall, and each other to the extent that it's second nature. It's accepted to document everything you do. Everything. Just like Reality TV. We older folks who, supposedly, are running things better get a grip. There is no secrecy. There is no hiding dirty deeds. Rummy and Bush haven't been paying attention. Maybe Bush should attend the twins' graduations. He ought to learn a little more about the thinking of younger people. These soldiers documented what they did because they're always documenting what they do. Even the horrible stuff.

[kskiska]

23. You're right

Rummy thinks he's fighting a war with yesterday's army. He was so baffled at the concept of digital cameras. These people are out of touch with today's world. They're in for a rude awakening. These kids aren't going to fall on their swords to save a superior's ass, either.

It'sobvious that the younger generation's views have changed from what we (me, anyway) old fogies grew up with. The royal family is an example. When Diana came onto the scene it blew their minds. She, unlike the queen and her contemporaries, wasn't about to look the other way when her husband was unfaithful, and didn't keep quiet about it.

Things just aren't like they used to be, and they need to get with the program.

[varun]

30. expect a ban on digital cameras..

...in the army soon.

[Karenina]

31. Yeah!

THAT's the ticket! :eyes:

[daleo]

68. And cell phones with camera capability?

I know they will try, but I just don't know if it is possible anymore. It might be easier to enforce a ban on paper and pen.

[Zookeeper]

29. Wow! I missed that....

Thanks for re-posting it!

Stanwyck is absolutely correct. As the military becomes more aware of this, it will be interesting to see how they decide to handle it. One would hope it would force them to keep their noses clean, but I suppose some of this technology could be banned in certain situations.

[crossroads]

35. That is true!

It is a different age with all the new technology that has come out in just the last 5 years. Good thinking!

[Emillereid]

25. We're building 14 permanent bases in Iraq --

we're not leaving until they run out of oil and before we bring the war to all those other countries that could conceivably threaten Israel. Never forget what the neo-cons wrote before the war. They want the whole middle east fragmented and powerless!

[crossroads]

37. Even if it costs the lives of every *other*

Mothers son! They are commited to stay the CURSE! :nuke: :grr: :kick:

[July]

51. And how's the naming of the sovereign Iraqi government going?

They're desperate for at least a nominal exit strategy, and yet they don't have any names to attach to the Iraqi government, which takes over (they say) in 53 days.

I think we should have a countdown here on DU -- how close to the glorious transition to "partial sovereignty" can we get without a clue as to who's receiving the handover?

[koopie57]

10. All of the ugliness we see today

and people are scratching their heads over the dimwit's re-election chances?

[JohnnyRingo]

11. Boxter is probably, and sadly, right...

Pix of Buxh in a compromising situation with his own mom would be explained away on Limbaughs show as: "Those Texans are really huuuge on this Mothers Day thing".

[Zookeeper]

14. LOL!

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[boxster]

64. Yep, he just REALLY loves his mom!

They're so affectionate.

Eww....

[grytpype]

13. Pollsters and presidential experts are scratching their heads?

How can there be any fucking doubt on how this affects Bush's "re"election hopes?

Is it good news? No. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Is it bad news? Yes. It may be the last straw, the one that finally turns the world against us completely.

Is Bush responsible for this? Yes. He is responsible for the invasion in the first place, he is responsible for tolerating shocking incompetence, lawlessness, and unreal thinking on the part of his senior officials,

And he did not act to put an end to the abuses when he learned from them! One order from him, and the abuses would stop. One order saying "No maltreatment of prisoners!" communicated down the chain of command to every detention facility in US or coaltion control would have done it. He had the power to do it. He did not exercise that power. Why not?

Bush must be made to answer for this.

[cliss]

22. You're right, gryt.

How easily it could have been done. But it wasn't. I think it's quite amazing to watch all of them, pointing fingers downward. "It's their fault". "Just a few, only 6". When he could have averted the disaster.

Meanwhile, Bush blamed the tortures on Saddam. Notice, he didn't say, "just a few of Saddam's minions did this".

[mcar]

17. More repub voters will stay home

on Election Day. That's my hope with all this. Some people will never be able to admit that they made a mistake, and most "loyal republicans" simply would never vote for Kerry. But if they stay home on Election Day, we still win.

[madrchsod]

18. 45-50% of the people will still vote for him

i seriously doubt any of this will matter to the average American. no matter what he does there is 45-50%of the people who think he`s doing a good job...scary isn`t it?

[Wind Dancer]

21. Very scary!

Many just don't want to be inconvenienced with news breaks that interrupt American Idol or Friends. Sad to say!

[July]

52. I think that's optimistic.

My wild guess would be more like 35-40%. I hope the more expert among us will chime in.

[SharonAnn]

84. He may get that percent of those who vote, but some won't vote,

they're so disgusted. Some hard-core Republicans would never vote for a Democrat, so they just won't vote.

[KharmaTrain]

27. This Is Too Juicy, I'm Ready To Let Wingnuts Really Have It

Let's see where my list is today...my fellow DU'ers are welcome to add in:

1.) Lied about Energy ask force - it's costing you $50 to fill that SUV.

2.) Lied about Tax Cuts - How much more are you paying in local and state taxes for the services that haven't been cut?

3.) Lied about the recession - How's your job these days? Stable? Working more and getting less? And how about your benefits and 401k??? How's that feeling compared to 1999?

4.) Lied about 9/11 - He knew, we know he knew, now why didn't he do a damn thing?

5.) Lied about the Iraq invasion - WMD anyone? Democracy anyone? Making the world safer anyone?

That's not a bad start on a Saturday. I dare any monkey to defend those positions.

Yep, his core will remain in the 35-40 percent range since these people are in absolute denial. This is like a junkie who knows how bad the drugs he/she is doing, but it just feels too good to face reality. Get some political methodone ready.

[truthisfreedom]

28. my my my.

what will karl do? resign?

[wildwww2]

47. What will Karl do? I hope the treasonous putz goes to prison.

Along with the rest of Bu$h Inc.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[cmd]

33. Briiiiiiiiiiiing it on!

and keep it coming. Just get him out.

[chillwindblowing]

40. we have just witnessed the beginning of the end of Bush and co.

It will not be easy but well worth it
The truth will out.

[RebelOne]

36. A thin majority

but a thin majority of the public has been hanging in with that it was the right decision to go to war," Kohut said. "This could be the event which makes people say 'Oh, we did make a mistake.'"

Do you think this thin majority will wake up soon and smell the coffee?

[crossroads]

38. The seed of doubt has bugun to grow!

Hidden in darkness and fed a lot of BS these seeds will mushroom into full blown anger - something had to wake them up! :shrug:

[kimchi]

44. Yes, the "thin majority" will wake up soon---or its all over.

Not only is Bush's situation at a crux, but America's standing in the world is also. Someday we will have a chance to redeem ourselves, but that will never happen with Bush in office.

If people continue to feign blindness, because they value their status more than their souls, then our democracy will be gone. And I no longer have patience for ANYONE who wishes away the truth. If I hear the hint of Bush apologism, I WILL respond with such a blinding verbial barrage that they will find something to agree with just so I'll shut up. I'm going to dinner tonight with some neighbors who are like grandparents to my child. I've been trying for years to get them to understand what is going on. Wish them luck.

[sundancekid]

71. might even smell that nepalm in the morning ...

Ted Kennedy is so on target when he says that this (Iraq) war is b*'s Vietnam ... and some of us remember that smell all too well and we all vote early and often ... so long, humpty dumpty

[leesa]

39. America's reputation was GONE the moment we invaded

Iraq and Afghanistan. There wasn't much left before these bogus oil wars, but there's nothing left now. The prison scandals are only an excuse the RW will use for the damaging of the US reputation. Our reputation is that of an arrogant bully and a brutal thug...has been for a long time.

[Karenina]

46. Amis ain't the "good guys" anymore.

DEAL WITH IT. :mad:

[crossroads]

72. End of WW2 the enemy was glad to be occupied by US

troops after the surrender! We *were* the good guys then!:wtf:

[Karenina]

83. Errraaaa...

That was then. This is NOW.

[young_at_heart]

41. Not the abuse, but the damage to Bush's re-election

That is what seems to be focused on in the media. Also, it's hard to listen to the conservative media excusing the abusiveness.

[Alexander]

48. If Bush administration scandals keep getting leaked at this rate...

Then I look forward to President Kerry.

[Beetwasher]

54. Do NOT Be Surprised If A Gallup Poll Comes Out

showing him going up a few points or not being affected...Or even an ABC/WP or an NBC poll too...I predict you will see at least one of those organizations putting out a poll that bucks the obvious trend...

[Vitruvius]

75. Kick

:kick:

[0007]

82. Time to dismantle the administration and bring the troops home

Michigan Sen. Carl Levin, the committee's top Democrat, said the abuses "dishonored our military and our nation and they made the prospects for success in Iraq even more difficult than they already are."