Woman ordered to pay KBR costs from Iraq rape suit

[meegbear]

Source: KHOU.com

A judge has ordered a former KBR Inc. employee to pay $145,000 of the company’s court costs after she lost her lawsuit alleging she was drugged and raped while working in Iraq.

A federal jury in Houston had ruled for KBR and against Jamie Leigh Jones after her civil trial in July. KBR had asked U.S. District Judge Keith Ellison to award $2 million in legal fees and court costs against Jones, but Ellison approved only the court costs on Monday.

The Houston Chronicle reports Ellison ruled that while Jones’ lawsuit was flawed, it was not frivolous as KBR alleged.

Jones’ attorney, Todd Jones of Houston, didn’t respond to telephone and email messages from The Associated Press on Tuesday night. He had previously called KBR’s request "shameful."

Read more: http://www.khou.com/home/Woman-ordered-to-pay-KBR-costs-from-Iraq-rape-suit-130703753.html

[Mudoria]

1. Just.... wow

[Lance_Boyle]

2. Ellison is right - the suit wasn't frivolous, it was fraudulent.

I suppose KBR would have to seek separate fraud charges against the woman to have the courts address that issue. Seems the court is not interested in her perjury, either.

[JackintheGreen]

5. Do you have evidence of this?

I haven't followed this case at all, except to know that it exists.

[Lance_Boyle]

11. link in post #9 pretty much spells it all out. n/t

[JackintheGreen]

15. Thanks for pointing that out

I don't always read comments posted after my own on threads like this. I might well have missed the link.

[defendandprotect]

6. .. and because we know KBR is an upstanding corporation and wouldn't harm anyone -- ROFL

[The Doctor.]

14. Who said that?

The fact that Hitler didn't kill JFK doesn't make him a saint.

[AtheistCrusader]

18. How do you know he wasn't the brain in the glass jar on the grassy knoll?

[defendandprotect]

28. Sarcasm ---

Guess I should have used the :sarcasm: icon -- ???

Re Hitler however, certainly the familes and corporations who tried to kill FDR

and who gave us Hitler had a lot to do with killing JFK --


And they're also the people who own/control our corporate press --


just saying' --

"evilgrin:

[The Doctor.]

32. I just meant

that just because something is evil (which KBR undoubtedly is) doesn't mean they are responsible for every crime they can conceivably be accused of.

That's all.

[defendandprotect]

34. No -- but it sure makes it more likely ... doesn't it???

[The Doctor.]

35. Oh, I don't think for a second that KBR wouldn't go for a full-blown cover up.

Unfortunately, she just didn't have credibility on her side. That sucks because we can't know for certain whether she's telling the truth.

Ultimately, I have to go with her attorney's (and ostensibly her own) admission when it came down to releasing the details of her book deal to the defense;

"Jones' lawyers filed a motion with the court declaring that the manuscript was a work of fiction."

[defendandprotect]

42. Boartz didn't have "credibitility" on his side either -- "Domestic violence" issues -- !!

When you come face to face with the power of something like KBR ....

I can see where the intimidation of that power would make it more likely that

Jones will be safer labeling her manuscript "fiction."


:nuke:

[RaleighNCDUer]

3. A lone woman takes on a multi-billion dollar corporation and loses,

and is forced to pay the court costs.

This surprises who?

[defendandprotect]

8. And this is an overall attack on anyone who wants to sue for any kind of damage by corporations ...

[SoapBox]

13. Ditto...You are absolutely correct.

[Overseas]

20. +1

[vets74]

98. You can't sue corporations.

Get over it.

[plumbob]

65. Certainly does not surprise me. See: Karen Silkwood.

Wouldn't it be nice if we just killed all the corporations? Adam Smith didn't think we needed them.

[vets74]

108. Bingo !

[OnyxCollie]

4. Greedy fucking KBR scum. nt

[jwirr]

7. That'll show you - don't ever try reporting anything like that again.

:sarcasm:

[naaman fletcher]

9. Good. she made it up.

Mother Jones agrees:

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/07/kbr-could-win-jamie-leigh-jones-rape-trial

[JackintheGreen]

19. That's not what MJ concluded at all

I hadn't followed this case and needed to be pointed here (posts #5, 15), but I read the MJ article and nowhere does it call her a liar. It points out inconsistencies between her and KBR's stories and spells out how the defense has used them to cast doubt on her story. And there is plenty there to cause the court to come back with a not-guilty verdict, since I don't see how guilt can be established beyond a reasonable doubt. That's our legal system. But if this was the UK, where the burden of proof is reversed (in my admittedly banal understanding of it), KBR/Boartz might have had an equally difficult time proving innocence.

But here's where it all breaks down for me: if she had 5 drinks in 1.5 hours at 120#, she was drunk beyond the ability to give consent. If she blacked out for whatever reason, she could not give consent. If she did not give consent, and the evidence presented suggests to me that she was not capable of giving it (drunk or drugged, it doesn't matter), then she was at the very least assaulted. But it can never be proved.

And this is rape culture. This is a similar story to the woman in NYC who definitely was not raped (:sarcasm:) by members of the NYPD because she was able to walk into her building with assistance.

[naaman fletcher]

22. they didn't say "she made it up"

But they presented clear evidence that she made up vast portions of it.

[lazarus]

24. not "beyond a reasonable doubt"

in a civil case, it's just a preponderance of evidence. Basically, 50.1% your side, and you win.

That said, I haven't seen all the evidence in this case, so can't comment on the decision. But it's definitely not beyond a reasonable doubt in any event.

[defendandprotect]

25. Interesting -- and agree re MJ ....

However, from the MJ article I read the 5 drinks were over a THREE hour period --

Still a lot - and doubt they were beer?

I think this is another one where we will never really know --

MJ didn't do any investigation -- so this is a lot of hearsay --

We know we have huge numbers of women in the military still being raped -- and

previously raped -- and this goes back to Vietnam. And Pentagon/Congress are doing

nothing about it --

and of course the Military Academies have also been involved with rape of female cadets.

Sexual abuse of women is histirocal --

But -- especially because of this history -- it would be very sad if Jame Leigh Jones

accusations were lies.


I find questions in what MJ reported --

In a gang rape, the witnesses are usually the rapists, for one -- so the absence of

witnesses is to be expected.

That there are said to be witnesses to Boartz and Jones "drinking, flirting and heading

to her barracks" would seem to be damaging, but then who are these witnesses?

Think there is room to question the lab reports -- and what influences KBR may have had

on the evidence.

As for only Boartz's DNA/semen being found -- if there was a gang rape, why would we not

suspect the use of condoms?

Didn't much get the EEOC involvement -- and after Clarence Thomas that would seem to

be questionable, as well -- but where was the "secure location" -- ?

And who was guarding her and how free were they to testify re what KBR did -- they were

KBR employees.

Noticed that there was a report about what Jones' plastic surgeron was allegedly going

to testify to -- but hadn't actually testified to, as yet.

The report alleges that the her surgeon would have denied she had severe damage to her

breasts -- but evidently something required surgery?


Did the hospital she first went to take Xrays -- and would a breast implant rupture be

visible or detectable without Xrays? I don't know.


Also found sadly humorous that Dr. Schultz who was the doctor who did the first examination

found "fissuring, redness and irritation in the pertinent areas -- and some bruises --

but they didn't require hospital treatment -- and that though there were "phsycial findings" ....

Dr. Schultz is quoted as saying "I can't tell you if they were caused by rape."


Again we have accusations weakened by personal history -- Jones has suggested she was raped

on at least one other occasiona -- and seems to be in denial of mental health issues --

for which she has previously taken medications.

On the other hand, only one line is devoted to Boartz's problems with domestic violence.


Certainly that the alleged assault took place in Iraq -- and that KBR had fairly immediate

control over it -- suggests to me that there was a lot of room for KBR to cover up.


I do think this is over, however --

[JackintheGreen]

30. Personally, I tend towards thinking she was raped

If not gang raped, then by Boartz. No consent (drunk/blacked out) = rape.

Unfortunately, even if all of her accusations are true - and MJ did a good job of spelling out how doubt can easily be cast upon them - she lives in a culture that routinely questions the victims of rape more aggressively than those accused of it.

[defendandprotect]

36. I think the lack of investigation in the very beginning -- the delay --

and the seeming lack of interest overall by Pentagon/Congress in doing anything

about rape in the military will bury this one as well --

And this case will serve to keep any others from coming forward ---

Works well for KBR!

:hi:

[saras]

31. Best summary I've seen. Rape culture on DU terrifies me.

Summary of MJ article, from the article itself: "None of this means that Jones was not raped in Iraq. But the evidence does undermine her credibility and could create serious doubts in jurors' minds."

A lot of it has to with legal interpretation and prevailing culture, not law.

To my mind, it is not possible to have consensual sex with someone who is too drunk to remember. But I recognize that much of America considers getting, or finding, women or girls drunk near unconsciousness and fucking them or gang-banging them to be normal adolescent behavior. So from the MJ article, I can't even see the possibility of consensual sex.

Aside from the possibility of getting someone pregnant and being foolish enough to have and raise your child, I've never understood the appeal of fucking someone who's unconsious or nonfunctional. Am I missing something that fucking a watermelon wouldn't show me?

[The Doctor.]

33. "Rape culture on DU"?!?!? Really?

How could you ever be taken seriously?

The argument you're making makes men who had been drinking the victims of rape as well. That's the funny thing about double standards. They shoot themselves in the foot.

[uppityperson]

55. Yes, drunk men are legally unable of giving consent so yes, are raped

NO one who is drunk is legally capable of giving legal consent so yes, they could say they were raped. Are you saying no drunk man could ever say they were a rape victim?

[The Doctor.]

56. I'm saying that if we're going to have a standard, then it should apply to everyone.

... equally. I'm glad you agree.

(I'm about that 'equality' thing)

So... how about that 'DU Rape Culture'?

[uppityperson]

57. I don't understand the term. Depends on how it is used

If meant that too many people agree that if not provable, it didn't happen, or that for some reason it's ok to have non-consensual sex, then no. Not sure what the term means

[The Doctor.]

59. What I find interesting is this;

One poster can accuse DU of having a 'rape culture', but another poster is forbidden from trying to discuss it.

I'm getting very sick of the double standards in general.

[uppityperson]

61. I think you can discuss it in the same topic, just not start another one as

that might look like a call out. I'll go upthread and ask for definition.

[The Doctor.]

64. Good point.

Thing is, I can't see how the claim that DU has a 'rape culture' is within the rules. It appears as though it is an accepted truth that DU has a 'rape culture'.

I'd like to know more about this if indeed it exists. I really wouldn't feel comfortable on a site with a 'Rape Culture'.


Would you?

[uppityperson]

104. People use terminology that may not be exactly right. It would be nice to get

clarification. However, there are individuals here who "aw shucks" at rape, make rape jokes, etc. Not as a site, but yes, there are all sorts here.

What if the "rape culture" were speaking out against rape, for survivors? That too is a culture.

[The Doctor.]

81. I asked you a fair question in post 64.

My apologies if it is below your consideration 'uppityperson'.

;)

[uppityperson]

102. I don't see it as an "accepted truth" that Du has a "rape culture", esp since the

one using that term has not defined wtf they mean.

I do see people here speaking out against rape, chastising those (and alerting on) those who post prison rape jokes. I'd like to see that term defined but so far you are right, it hasn't happened.

[AngryAmish]

99. I've been raped most weekends since I was 18

No wonder I feel such shame.

[uppityperson]

101. If you've been drunk most weekends since 18, you have a problem

Perhaps you misunderstand the definition of "legally". Yes, people do drink, do get drunk, do have sex with someone. "Legally", a drunk person is incapable of giving "legal" consent. Hence, beware to people who have sex with drunk people as yes, they "could" say it was rape. Be cautious, make sure you aren't overstepping boundaries.

And yes, if you are the drunk one, you could claim rape. Don't have to, but LEGALLY, you could.

Have you seriously been drunk most weekends since you were 18? How old are you?

[AngryAmish]

107. 42.

I like drinking.

[24601]

111. So if they are both drunk then they raped each-other. Better get

busy building a whole shitload more prisons.

[uppityperson]

112. Legally, each could be accused of rape. Realistically, doubt that would happen

Did you notice the word "could"?

[hlthe2b]

60. I couldn't get past the sickeningly foul verbage...

I'm no prude, but was the intent to make a point or disgust? If that poster had a point, I missed it for the cavalier and gratuitous use of nasty sexual slang. If the objective was the second, they succeeded. I have to go :puke: now....




:shrug:

[uppityperson]

63. aw fuck, that's too bad

sorry

[hlthe2b]

66. It wasn't your post I was referring to uppity...

As demeaning as rape is, I don't know why we have to dig down even further into that gutter. But, apparently some think discussing rape should be "titillating" .... :eyes:

[uppityperson]

67. I agree. eom

[The Doctor.]

80. According to that poster, whose disgusting verbage is somehow sacrosanct here,

We are likely part of that "Rape Culture" ourselves for daring to take exception.

I'm beginning to think some of us have long since outgrown this place and it's inhabitants. I would have liked to believe this was still a place of reason, but I think I know what's really going on.

And I'm seldom wrong.

[defendandprotect]

37. +1 ---

True -- we have a way to go on DU with consiciousness-raising -- !!!

:evilgrin:

[uppityperson]

62. I am curious what "rape culture on DU" means. Would you please clarify?

I am confused by the term and would like to know what you mean, esp about Du. Thanks.

[The Doctor.]

82. You will not get a straight answer.

This is about insinuation and divisiveness.

Even my taking direct exception to it is a sought result. I'm just hoping that the light is bright enough to extinguish the shadows of bullshit the poster has tried to create.

If DU allows such malevolent denigration to flourish, then I'd really have to consider observing from a distance.

And that's exactly the point.

I will not be associated with a site that condones a 'Rape Culture'. I would be disgusted by anyone that chose to be a member of any such site.

And again we arrive at the point.

What's interesting here is that I seem to be the only noticing the deliberate pattern... at least out loud.

[uppityperson]

103. SERIOUS question, what do you mean "rape culture on DU"?

Do you mean those posters who write prison rape "jokes", or those who write about wanting to rape, or those who don't believe that rape exists, or "considers getting, or finding, women or girls drunk near unconsciousness and fucking them or gang-banging them to be normal adolescent behavior." or what?

I see them posting but do not consider this small set of assholes to be representative of DU. Is this what you mean? Please clarify.

serious question, yes, I can be serious without snark. Thank you.

[Freddie Stubbs]

38. Guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is not needed in a civil case

This was not a criminal case. You only need a preponderance of the evidence in civil cases.

Translation: There was more evidence that she wasn't raped that evidence that she was raped.

[boppers]

93. 5 drinks in three hours. not 1.5.

"Jones acknowledged having up to five alcoholic beverages over three hours on the night in question."

There's no indication in the article if those were five three-shot drinks, or five generic 12 oz. beers. That can make a huge difference in the resulting BAC and its effects (the first is 15 standard drinks, with 12 not metabolized, the second is 5 standard drinks, with two not metabolized). That's a difference of 10 drinks.

That being said, I like the Arizona standard: any alcohol, at *all*, removes the ability to give consent. A single beer is enough, if sex occurs within an hour after finishing the beer.

[boppers]

92. Hell of a read.

3rd time she's "cried wolf", history of faking injury, history of problems with drinking, only reported being "imprisoned" 2 years later, lied on her medical forms, etc.

[femrap]

10. And the US of A's

Culture of Rape continues proudly.

Al Franken helped her with her case against the male employees and alleged rapists. I believe there were 4 or 5 males who 'supposedly' gang raped her, drugged her, and stuck her in a metal cargo unit.

Karma will see to those males.

Just unbelievable what this patriarchy does to women. Hope KBR rots.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[femrap]

70. buh bye boy

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cstanleytech]

17. No, its not culture of rape but a culture of law

as someone above on #9 linked the evidence does not support on the surface the rape claims, you just forgot that largely because of Bush and Cheney who tried to turn it into a culture of lawlessness and disorder.

[femrap]

71. I guess

if a boy had been sodomized, you think differently. another to the list

[cstanleytech]

77. Thats a ridiculous statement for you to make.

[naaman fletcher]

27. Except it didn't happen. nt.

[femrap]

73. i bet you

don't think there is such a thing as rape of a women....FO

[naaman fletcher]

79. I bet you

that you are wrong, and more importantly, when you are confronted with being wrong, you get nasty. Actually, I don't need to bet that, as it just happened.

[cstanleytech]

94. Yup, seems like that to me as well.

[The Doctor.]

12. Unfortunately, we can't know for certain whether she was actually raped.

If it weren't for the fact that so many women fraudulently allege rape (a crime nearly as awful as rape itself), the true victims wouldn't face such a high likely hood that their plight will be dismissed.

In this case, there was not enough evidence to prove her claim and she had a history of psychological issues and falsely claiming she was raped before. As the burden of proof is on the accuser in this case, it's no surprise that no one was found guilty.

Now, for KBR to sue her for a 'frivolous' claim, they have the burden of proof. I'm not an attorney, so correct me if I'm mistaken. It would seem, however, that they have to prove that she was lying which is a different ball of wax.

This isn't about a 'big corporation' getting its way by virtue of its political clout. It's just a realistic (and possibly unfortunate) outcome.

[RaleighNCDUer]

21. I wouldn't say "so many" fraudulently allege rape - the number of false

accusations pales beside the number of actual rapes - well below .01%. That said, it does happen.

It also happens that promiscuous women, crazy women, and prostitutes do get raped. Each case must be judged on its own merits, not on the sometimes questionable history of the woman.

[defendandprotect]

26. +1000% -- and also rape is highly undereported --

becaause it is difficult to prove and often the process is even more damaging

to the victim.

[The Doctor.]

29. It's nowhere near that low.

I agree that the character of the woman (or man) has no bearing on whether (s)he deserves justice for rape.

Unfortunately, many, many women falsely accuse men of rape. I generally recommend against making up numbers without actually doing some research, btw. I've given 'top of the head' estimates before, and to my surprise some of them turn out to be wildly off.

In this case, you're wildly off. If you have a source for that '.01%' number, I would recommend dismissing it entirely as such a number is too fantastic to be taken seriously.

http://www.falserape.net/false-rape.htm

http://www.falserape.net/falserapeafa.htm

http://www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/spring09/15/

Charles P. McDowell, a researcher in the United States Air Force Special Studies Division, studied the 1,218 reports of rape that were made between 1980 and 1984 on Air Force bases throughout the world (McDowell, 1985). Of those, 460 were found to be "proven" allegations either because the "overwhelming preponderance of the evidence" strongly supported the allegation or because there was a conviction in the case. Another 212 of the total reports were found to be "disproved" as the alleged victim convincingly admitted the complaint was a "hoax" at some point during the initial investigation. The researchers then investigated the 546 remaining or "unresolved" rape allegations including having the accusers submit to a polygraph. Twenty-seven percent (27%) of these complainants admitted they had fabricated their accusation just before taking the polygraph or right after they failed the test. (It should be noted that whenever there was any doubt, the unresolved case was re-classified as a "proven" rape.) Combining this 27% with the initial 212 "disproved" cases, it was determined that approximately 45% of the total rape allegations were false.

<...>

As with all of human behavior, there are numerous reasons why a person would lie about being raped. In the study of false rape allegations in the midwestern town and state universities, over half of the accusers fabricated the rape to serve as a "cover story" or alibi. This included 56% of the non-student and 53% of the student false accusers. The most frequent context and motive for the fabricated rape was consensual sex with an acquaintance that led to some sort of problem for the accuser. The perceived problem was typically something that caused feelings of shame and guilt in the accuser (such as contracting a sexually transmitted disease or becoming pregnant), which was bound to be discovered and received negatively by family or friends.

Approximately half of the accusers who were motivated by a need for an alibi identified the alleged rapist. Their goal was not to harm or cause problems for the acquaintance, but to protect themselves in what they perceived to be a desperate situation. As with most lies, the false rape accusation allowed the accuser to deny responsibility by creating an alternate reality into which to escape.

The next most common reason for lying about being a victim of rape was revenge, rage, or retribution. In the Midwest study, this included 27% of the non-student and 44% of the student accusers. In these cases, the false victim had suffered some real or perceived wrong, rejection, or betrayal by the alleged rapist. As the purpose of making the accusation was to obtain some measure of revenge, the "suspect" was always identified. Researchers in the Air Force study also found that spite or revenge and the need to compensate for a sense of personal failure through an alibi accusation were the primary motives for false rape reports.

The fact that there is such a potentially high probability that a rape accusation is fraudulent is disturbing for two reasons that should be obvious;

1) It can destroy the life and reputation of the accused. Many, many men throughout history have been devastated by such accusations, if not outright murdered.

2) It causes immense harm to actual victims of rape as there is already institutionalized doubt regarding any accusation.

For this reason, I believe that false accusations of rape should be met with penalties more harsh than currently exist.

Since there is no real way to know whether Jones was actually raped, given her history I'd be more inclined to believe she made it up.

[RaleighNCDUer]

39. You realize, don't you, that your primary source is a lie.

http://www.falserape.net/index.html

Apparently (the website suggests) by the mother of an accused rapist.

It focuses on a particular subset - USAF, and particularly the AFA. The home page, linked above, betrays itself in its own text. It twists the statistics to deflate the problem. It starts with saying there were 400+ reports made. Of them, it specifically says of 142 charges, there was evidence enough evidence to pursue 56 cases. No evidence does not mean no rape. Particularly in an institution that wants to avoid embarrassment. It means, in a "he said, she said" they didn't pursue it. It then asserts that there were only 56 reported rapes - an obvious lie, when you look at the first paragraph of the piece. Of the 56 cases opened, there were six courts martial and one acquittal - the other cases were NOT dismissed, but handled with Article 15 Non Judicial Punishment, which included resignations from the service. ONE was acquitted. That means ONE charge that MIGHT be a false charge - though it doesn't say so.

There are many other sources, covering these same incidents, where the women testify that they were pressured into recanting their testimony for the sake of their careers.

A great many women will make a charge, then withdraw it because of the intimidation of going through a court proceeding. They will, when asked, say they lied - whether they did or not - because if they do NOT say so they might still be dragged through a trial. A prosecutor will not accept "I changed my mind" as a reason. If not intimidated by the court system, they may be intimidated by the rapist or his friends into silence. It takes a lot of courage for a woman to file in the first place - when faced with threats of retaliation, their courage may fail. And on THAT subject, at least 3 of 4 rapes are never reported in the first place.

Frankly, any suggestion that 50% of all rapes reported never happened is bullshit, and you need to examine the source of those stats.

(Granted, I did make up the one-in-ten-thousand number, but I would be not be surprised if it was really one in a thousand. Even my insane first wife who never learned how to tell the truth never accused anyone of rape, and she was the most vindictive creature I ever met.)

And your prejudice gives itself away.

"I agree that the character of the woman (or man) has no bearing on whether (s)he deserves justice for rape."

"Since there is no real way to know whether Jones was actually raped, given her history I'd be more inclined to believe she made it up."

That is not judging her on her (reported) character?

[defendandprotect]

41. +1000% -- Thank you -- !!

[joeglow3]

46. I know 2 who have been falsly accused

One was an 18 year that had a 3-some with 2 17 year olds, when one of their fathers walked in. She was so ashamed, she cried rape and got her friend to go along. He actually spent time in prison before the friend felt guilty and told the truth.

The other was a friend's father who was divorcing his 3rd wife and she convinced her daughter to say he raped him. He was cleared in short order, but not before he was handcuffed and told of his crimes in front of all his coworkers.

In short, it can destroy people's lives and there are no shortage of pieces of shit who will use this to satisfy their own all-consuming rage (and damage future rape victims) .

[The Doctor.]

48. You seem to be missing something.

One, you deliberately twisted what is in the article in order to support your charge that it 'lies'. That's enough to write off virtually everything else you could possibly say on this subject. But I won't because this deserves to be put to rest.

For one, you seem to have deliberately left out some details;

"Out of 142 incidents reported over 10 years, the AFA found sufficient evidence to investigate 56."

Then this;

"There were 56 cases of alleged sexual assault that allegedly happened between 1993 and 2000 at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, Colorado."

Then, here's what you did;

1) You referred to the '142 incidents reported' as 'charges', which they were not.
2) You said, "It starts with saying there were 400+ reports made.", which is really strange considering there is NOTHING on that entire page about '400' anything. So you just kind of made it up.
3) You said that it claims '56 reported rapes', but it calls those 'cases of alleged sexual assault'. Ok, that might seem like nitpicking, but they were called 'cases' for a reason... they were investigated.

There is no 'lie' here at all. It was clumsy to even try to construct the premise. I'll let you figure out just why it is that some cases are not investigated.

Simply assuming that nearly all the women who recanted their claims were coerced into doing so is also ludicrous. I'll grant that it can and does happen, but to pretend that nearly ever woman who recants did so under duress is just naïve. Women are people too you know. That means that they are perfectly capable of lying about anything. I'm amazed that anyone can suggest that the behavior of one single ex-wife must therefore make such behavior scarce by women at large just because that ex didn't think of doing such a thing.

I mean, seriously?

The reality is that somewhere between 10% and 50% of reported rape is false. It's a big grey area because yes, some people change their stories for many different reasons. I'm sure if your ex had gone ahead and tried this on you, you'd be singing a different tune today. I've seen way too many incidents of women lying and causing tremendous damage to take seriously anyone that pretends that 99.9% of them are honest and genuine.

And here's the thing you missed by the widest margin;

And your prejudice gives itself away.

"I agree that the character of the woman (or man) has no bearing on whether (s)he deserves justice for rape."

"Since there is no real way to know whether Jones was actually raped, given her history I'd be more inclined to believe she made it up."

That is not judging her on her (reported) character?

It IS judging her on her character. What I said was; "...the character of the woman (or man) has no bearing on whether (s)he deserves justice for rape. The two statements are not opposed. One can be judged on character, and one can deserve justice regardless of that character. The fact that character might influence whether they receive justice does not make them less deserving.


I don't know what the heck kind of 'prejudice' you're accusing me of here.

Oh, and one other thing; Do you have anything to support your insinuation that the site was not brought about by a mother of her falsely accused son?

[defendandprotect]

40. "This site is dedicated to awareness that false accusations of rape are common and a troublesome"

ROFL ---

And your "forensic" link is broken --

However, let's be clear that much of the pwoer in these situations is still in male

hands -- which makes it handy for cover ups --

And we know that the Pentagon/Congress have done nothing about military rapes --

With patriarchy still in charge and still at war vs women, difficult to say that even

any of the "false claims" weren't withdrawn upon intimidation of some kind.



Meanwhile, we also know that only a small percentage of rapes are reported --

I would imagine yhou could multiply the reported cases in general by 1000% and still

not be close to the numbers. Date rape used to be one of the easiest situatiosn for

males -- women weren't believed at all.

Got a little tougher later on and then we saw the "date rape drugs" becoming popular.

And "gang rapes" becoming more popular -- which should give us a clue as to what is

going on in our society! Males working together in common cause!!

[The Doctor.]

44. For some reason it didn't remain contiguous.

http://www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/spring09/15/ (it's the last slash at the end, add it manually to the link in the browser)

It does work.

You can get there this way as well;

http://www.google.com/search?q=As+with+all+of+human+behavior%2C+there+are+numerous+reasons+why+a+person+would+lie+about+being+raped.&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a


I understand that women can do no wrong and men are all evil beasts, I get that.

Unfortunately, reality is not only more complicated, it's more disappointing.

Many women make false accusations. I know you don't want to believe it, but the status of 'victim' has been institutionalized by society. While on the one hand you claim that men collaborate to victimize women, in reality they also fly off and kill each-other on no more than the accusation of rape or assault. I've known people personally who were beaten severely because some girl told her friend/boyfriend/father they assaulted her. I have a friend whose wife went after him with a knife. When the police arrived after HE called them, guess who they took to the station?

Men naturally feel obligated to rise to a woman's defense in society and there are so many examples of it happening it would be idiocy to suggest otherwise.

What boggles me is the way that so many people can't see the whole picture. It's always about what poor victims these women are and what horrible beasts men are. Women take advantage of this constantly.


Imagine that you had a son or brother who was a really nice person and always treated women with respect and dignity. Now imagine that some girl he was at a party with accused him of rape. What do you think would happen? They'd arrest him immediately. No matter what the outcome, his life and reputation are devastated.

This happens all the time.

To deny it, and believe that women never do this is both naïve and sexist. Yet here I am, acknowledging that men rape women, that it's horrible, and that it sucks that women are treated as unreliable because of other women who lie, and I'm accused of sexism by people around here.

:silly:

Sometimes I wonder why I bother.

[defendandprotect]

47. Right ... it's females who are sexually enslaving males globally ... ROFL

Reality really isn't that complicated --

Patriarchy has created Global Warming -- how stupid is that?

And you're defending male violence against females by your suggesting that overall

males kill more males than females? Wow -- impressive!!

Men naturally feel obligated to rise to a woman's defense in society and there are so many examples of it happening it would be idiocy to suggest otherwise.

And, oddly enough, you did come by a truism here -- and it is one of the problems with society

and how men are taught -- this idea that they have to be VIOLENT or be prepared to be VIOLENT

in every day life is a brainwashing of males which should be stopped.

"Maleness is a total social construct" --


Truth be told, females don't generally come under attack in physical or sexual assault --

or robberies -- when they are accompanied. Males who prey on women aren't interested in any

such complications.



What boggles me is the way that so many people can't see the whole picture. It's always about what poor victims these women are and what horrible beasts men are. Women take advantage of this constantly.

Only someone in complete ignorance or ignoring the overall violence vs women could come to that

conclusion! We are the only species where the male members are at war vs the female majority!


Here are a few additional reminders --

It is MALES who are our sexual abusers -- even the RW organizations agree with that!

And, in fact, it is HETEROSEXUAL MALES who are 100X more likely than homosexuals to sexually

abuse children.

And very often it is females who males see as standing in their way re the sexual abuse of children!


You might also recall the research where college aged males were asked anonymously if they

would rape a female if they could get away with it -- Response was a universal "YES" -- !!


We also have the many examples in internet porn of sexual abuse of females in a parady of

"lovemaking" which is more an example of hatred for females!

[The Doctor.]

49. Why is it that so many people are so willing to lie outright?

You've crossed the line here, as so many do when they can't stay on reason.

Either I get an apology for the suggestion that I have ever 'defended male violence against women', or I'll happily end this exchange.

I have been nothing but reasonable and honest, but you can't be bothered to follow suit. You should be ashamed.

[mistertrickster]

51. +1 You're not following the script. If you have a Y chromosome, you must plead guilty

and beg mercy on your sins.

Never mind that most violence is man on man, never mind that the number one un-educated group in the country and growing are young men.

You have a penis. You are to blame.

[The Doctor.]

52. So I've noticed.

Men really can be horrible violent assholes. I know... I've beat a couple of them up for hurting my female friends. (Yes, irony)

The thing that amazes me is how unwilling so many are to acknowledge that women are assholes too. It's almost as though treating them as anywhere near equal to men in their capacity for nastiness or meanness is sacrilege.

What ever happened to 'equality'?

[defendandprotect]

83. ROFL -- IMO, it's because they run out of debate ...

and your post is a perfect example of that --

You're on ignore --

[mistertrickster]

88. Lucky man. nt

[defendandprotect]

90. If you think so --

why not just put me on ignore --

[The Doctor.]

113. Well, since you are incapable of being rational or restraining yourself from

insane personal attacks, your ignorance is appreciated.

First correct thing you've done here.

[uppityperson]

74. "females don't generally come under attack in physical or sexual assault... when they are acc.."?n

"females don't generally come under attack in physical or sexual assault --

or robberies -- when they are accompanied"


Seriously? The ONLY time I've been sexually assaulted IS when I was accompanied. By the person who was accompanying me.

Unless I misunderstood you.

[defendandprotect]

84. Good confirmation of date rape --

though made in a bit round-about way -- !!

Think the argument you were trying to have would be more with the poster who suggested

that males usually feel obligated to protect women -- !!



ROFL

[uppityperson]

105. and spousal rape. But then, after all, if they were married, they'd had sex already, so

what can I complain about? Besides, married men have those sexual needs and rights and he might have just taken his little happy guy somewhere else so why should I complain?

I copy/pasted from your post, so simply replied to you, hoping those interested would read the whole thread.

[defendandprotect]

110. "Spousal Rape" was something few thought about -- until Forsythe Saga?

Except the Bibical -- "A wife must submit to her husband" -- !!

Days of women as property --



:hi:

[uppityperson]

72. "Many women make false accusations." and MANY of us who have been raped NEVER make ANY accusations

False accusations hurt us all and happen. So many women have been raped and never make any legal accusations, may never tell anyone or ever get counted that it is incredible. I worked for female nurse practitioner who asked every female she saw if she'd been raped. This is in an ordinary family practice clinic. The number was astoundingly high.

Ask women you know if they have ever been raped and if they'd ever reported it. It might surprise you.

Yes, a man being falsely accused is really bad, as are women being raped who never report their rape to anyone.

[defendandprotect]

85. +1 --

[uppityperson]

69. The problem of being taken seriously has been impacted by false accusations, but moreso by

general culture and cultural expectations of men, women, sex. So many of us HAVE been raped but never did anything, legally, about it because we didn't want to put ourselves through the trauma of going to court, having to prove we were innocent as the driven snow (whatever that means) etc etc etc.

For instance, why has it just become possible, legally, for spousal rape? After all, they were married and had had sex in the past, or at least were married and of course men deserve sex from their wives if only she wasn't such a bitch for so long, etc etc etc.

False accusations hurt us all, but there are larger issues. Societal, cultural.

[defendandprotect]

86. Male violence is pretty much one of the largest issues of our society ---

and the most unacknowledged --

A few years ago, however, the United Nations did actually confirm that rape is a

"tool of war" --

And that doesn't just involve our official wars --

Our species is the only one where the males are at war against the female majority of

the species and rape has been one of the major tools in that war -- and continues to be --


Certainly rape is hugely underreported -- but even when it is we see that too often the

female is even further brutalized by the system.


Just want to add that the women who do speak out about their experiences are very

courageous and that we all need to hear these truths --

and that it is very sad to hear that you have suffered in this way --


:hi:

[elleng]

23. Not happy with the judgment,

but judge's decision for court costs not unreasonable in the circumstances, imo.

[vets74]

43. Any more doubts, here, about corporatism ???

"Love of money is the root of all evil."

[Hydra]

45. I never had any doubts

But I'm in the minority- Profit is becoming a "holy" concept. It doesn't matter if people suffer or die for it, Profit is always a pure and unquestionable reason to do something.

Worship of Mammon may be the doom of our species.

[cstanleytech]

54. And that belief applies in this case how exactly?

[defendandprotect]

89. I'm hoping that KBR went at least one step too far in this move for "damages" ...

And it makes me wonder even more how much they want to ensure that no other victim

can ever bring charges against them --

[mistertrickster]

50. The fact that she was "gang raped" and the lab found only DNA from one guy

makes the entire story rather unbelievable.

Remember the Duke frat house that RAPED the stripper?

I was outraged! I was appalled!

I was . . . oh, she lied?

Never mind . . .

[The Doctor.]

53. As was suggested in this thread, the gang-rapists put on condoms.

We know that gang-rapists are considerate like that. Get with the program.

[uppityperson]

75. If it was a group of buddies, it happens that way sometimes.

Depends on the group. Sometimes they want to protect themselves from someone else's semen, or not leave DNA evidence.

[defendandprotect]

87. Certainly, those involved in a gang rape would have used condoms -- !!

[vets74]

95. This attack/rape was planned ahead of time. The girl's a lesbian = target.

They also made sure to pop both of her her breast implants. That's actually hard to do unless they were trying to make that happen.

This was a conspiracy. During the attack, likely severe enough to qualify as torture.

Prosecution ??? #$%^*&^%$....

[defendandprotect]

109. Anything is possible ....

but I haven't seen any reports of that -- i.e., that she is a lesbian --

or that it was planned long term --

And think she has since married -- ?

[Odin2005]

58. I'm. Speechless.

:grr:

[uppityperson]

68. k&r and shameful. Flawed, no frivolous. SHAME on them

[classysassy]

76. Once again the Big Boys show the little people who's in charge.

Justice in America is stil on hoilday.

[cstanleytech]

78. And of course you have proof that is what happened in this case, right?

[hack89]

96. Have you looked at this woman's history? nt

[uppityperson]

106. I wonder if they picked her on purpose because they knew with her history she'd be disbelieved. nt

[vets74]

97. Intimidating the lesbians in the military sounds about right.

Lesbian = target.

The control freak males in the military are big on extorting oral sex. She turned them down.

-- You say "No !" and we can do anything to you.

This attack was nastier than what hit the newspapers. The military.com bulletin boards got to the core of it. Where there's weak/rightie leadership, damn near anything can happen.

[marasinghe]

91. ".... jury in Houston ....". and fucking dick cheney's tail still spewing venom. n/t