Norway: War Games and Toys Pulled From Shelves

[Judi Lynn]

Source: NY Times

Norway: War Games and Toys Pulled From Shelves
By CHRISTINA ANDERSON
Published: August 2, 2011

Some stores in Norway are removing certain computer games and war toys from their shelves out of respect for victims of the recent killings on the island of Utoya and in Oslo, Swedish Radio News reported Tuesday. Coop, a supermarket chain, removed the online game World of Warcraft and about 10 other games; Anders Behring Breivik, who claimed responsibility for the murders, was a regular in talk forums for players of World of Warcraft.



Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/03/world/europe/03briefs-WARGAMESANDT_BRF.html?_r=1&ref=europe

[RC]

1. At least one country is civilized.

[Confusious]

4. Yes, I'm sure world of warcraft had something to do with it.

It had something to do with World war 1, world war 2, and jim jones also.

:sarcasm:

[Cerridwen]

22. "Anders Behring Breivik used online war games as 'training'"

Anders Behring Breivik used online war games as 'training'

In his 1,500-page manifesto, a European Declaration of Independence, Breivik described how he used Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 to prepare for the attacks.

“I just bought Modern Warfare 2, the game,” he wrote in the document. “It is probably the best military simulator out there and it’s one of the hottest. I see MW2 more as part of my training-simulation than anything else.”

The Modern Warfare game uses lifelike cinema quality graphics to take players through first-person scenarios which put them in the place of soldiers.

In this case, this guy did use online games, WOW is mentioned in other articles, as sources of training.

[4saken]

24. The fact that both are being blamed is an issue.

Call of Duty is a combat simulator. However World of Warcraft is far from it, it's known as an MMORPG(massively multiplayer online roleplaying game). Depending mainly on long gaming hours, social aspects and adventuring. Anyone who thinks they are anything alike knows nothing about video games, and has likely played neither. You may certainly have a point against CoD, however extending that to MMORPGs is a fatal error, which will undermine any rational point that could be made. What would you say if he claimed Tetris or Pong were used in "training" of some sort? Even tho their game-play has nothing to do with shooting? If the Norwegian government took such an irrational position it would just undermine them from the perspective of these young adults who already know the very large differences between these games. The same point can be applied to any law that lacks a rational basis. Some people will recognize that irrationality, and in turn form mentalities that may not respect the actual rational laws that do appeal to accurate reasoning.

[chrisa]

43. Call of Duty actually isn't a combat simulator. It's an arcade shooter.

It is about as unrealistic as possible. Combat Sims are an entirely different genre of games, and true "Combat Sims" aren't realistic either.

[Xithras]

82. You don't play Hardcore, do you?

Most of the unrealistic perks are disabled, bullet damage is realistic, there's no HUD, etc. It's just you, your gun, and bad guys. Infinity Ward even brought in combat veterans to help them get the "real combat" feel down.

There's no way any screen based simulator can ever really compare to firing an actual weapon, but CoD in Hardcore is about as close as you can get while you're sitting on your living room couch.

[4saken]

95. Ever heard of a little game called America's Army?

They are developed by the US Army, released initially to help recruitment.

""Before we even launched the public game, we knew from development that this type of technology was pretty powerful for training, especially small units—small infantry teams, special forces teams,” said Christopher Chambers, deputy director for America’s Army, in an interview with National Defense."
nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2006/February/Pages/games_brance3042.aspx

You'd say the game-play shown in this video is meaningfully different when it comes to potential training, from Call of Duty?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzWi1kl1d0E

The game-play is typical among FPS, and similar to CoD. The difference between dieing in 2 shots or 4 shots, isn't what determines whether they find it useful for combat training. The term "combat sim" is generally used to refer to flight simulator games, however "combat simulator" can also be a more general term, that refers to any type of combat simulation, including FPS.

[Confusious]

32. WOW is FAR from a military game

Don't know how beating the crap out of an orc ( tiny, almost hard to see orcs ) is "training"

Any other game for that matter. Shooting something in a video game doesn't mean I'm going to hit crap when I get a real one.

But it makes a good thing to blame I guess.

[chrisa]

41. So, a game with mythical ogres and warlocks running around was used as

training to run around shooting people in the head? WOW isn't even a war game. It's a Fantasty-MMO-Adventure game. I don't even think there's even guns in that game.

[Devil_Fish]

101. The Humans have guns. The night elves have arrows. none are 1st person shooters.

WOW is a strategy game like chess. I don't see how you could use it as a terrorist training tool. I Play WOW it's a strategy game. What about games like Evony? was he using them too? next we will here he played Farmville.

[LanternWaste]

49. I don't believe causation was implied

I don't believe causation was implied as the reason, merely respect. :shrug:

[dipsydoodle]

27. ditto

.

[gratuitous]

67. The Norwegians get it

We in the United States most decidedly and most determinedly do not.

[Judi Lynn]

2. Norwegian shops pull Call of Duty games after Anders Breivik massacre

Norwegian shops pull Call of Duty games after Anders Breivik massacre

More than one retail chain in Norway has removed some video games from sale - including several Call of Duty games and World of Warcraft - in the wake of the massacre carried out by Anders Behring Breivik's on July 22.

Tom Phillips - 2nd August, 2011


According to Danish gaming website Gamer's Globe , a spokesperson for Coop Norway said: 'In light of Friday's horrific events, and out of respect for those affected, we have chosen to remove selected items from our range.'

The site says that the affected games are Call of Duty: Black Ops; CoD: Modern Warfare 2; CoD: World at War Platinum; CoD 4: Modern Warfare Classic; Homefront; Sniper: Ghost Warrior; Counter-Strike Source; and World of Warcraft.

According to Norwegian local paper Rogalands Avis, the stores have said that the removals are 'temporary', but that they will 'think twice' about stocking the games again. A spokesperson added that: 'Others are better qualified than us to point to the repercussions these games have.'

However, the Coop chain of stores in Denmark said that they had not removed any games from sale, saying in a statement that they believed 'that terrorism has been guided by motives other than computer game universes.'

More:
http://www.metro.co.uk/tech/games/871121-norwegian-shops-pull-call-of-duty-games-after-massacre

[LetTimmySmoke]

21. Oh gee, maybe they can go through his manifesto...

...and ban his 10 favorite songs from the radio, ban his favorites movies from being shown or sold for a couple years, and take his favorite TV shows off the air.

That'll solve things.

[Judi Lynn]

3. Norwegian stores withdraw violent video games after attacks

Norwegian stores withdraw violent video games after attacks
(AFP) – 12 hours ago

OSLO — Two video games used by far-right extremist Anders Behring Breivik in planning his July 22 killing spree have been withdrawn from a number of stores across Norway, one co-op chain said Tuesday.

Coop Norge, one of the country's major grocery store chains and its main co-op, said it took the decision "out of respect" for the families of the 77 people slain in the twin attacks.

The move was launched on July 24 "to spare people who, in one way or another, were affected by the terrorist acts," the chain's director for non-food items Geir Inge Stokke told AFP.

"We don't want them to stumble upon violent video games while buying milk and bread in our stores," he said.

More:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5j72hQhaPBMMx3Aqyiy-U1SQGbmkw?docId=CNG.b5d6f26d26cde586fa7a9380cfa7a523.131

[Confusious]

5. After I got a bullet through my leg

got back from the hospital, the guy who did it was arrested, my window was replaced, and the pain subsided (about 48 hours),

I went back to playing violent video games.

[saras]

16. and so you think everyone should be as callous and shallow as you?

If someone else takes ten years to heal emotionally, they they took ten years, and the shooter is still responsible. They have no right whatsoever to dictate to others how they "should" react to being shot.

[Confusious]

30. Tell me how I'm shallow

Also, tell me how I'm callous.

I doubt the people who lost someone are buying video games right about now.

I know! How about we ban all the TV shows he watched, the car he drove, the music he listened to, the clothes brand he wore and the celebrities he liked from working. Maybe that will make them feel better.

Some times shit goes to far.

[aquart]

23. So,then, would you say the dehumanization was successful?

[Confusious]

31. I got shot

I didn't die, my leg would heal, I couldn't walk, and I was pissed.

What else was I suppose to do?

[krispos42]

6. I bet Breivik put his pants on one leg at a time

So is Norway going to a) outlaw pants and mandate kilts, or b) issue trampolines and out law non-simultaneous pants-dressing?

[Shining Jack]

18. +1 n/t

[iamthebandfanman]

7. i cant help but wonder what his gear score was/is...

is that terrible?

probably :(

[backwoodsbob]

92. Finally got my frostmage to Ilevel355 nt

[marions ghost]

8. Makes sense

for retailers who don't want to offend the victims and the rest of the shell-shocked nation. Smart business move. Supermarkets should not be in this business. Games like Sniper & World of Warcraft --who can't see the connection to acts like these? Obviously the games will still be available, just not pushed everywhere.

[Lance_Boyle]

34. 'who can't see the connection to acts like these?'

Nobody who's ever done any research on video game violence and its impact on real world violence, that's precisely who "can't see the connection." Here's a big hint - it's because there's no connection there. But don't let that stop you from trying to inflict your non-reasoned emotional knee-jerk on the rest of us. :eyes:

[Confusious]

35. Seriously I hope that's sarcasm

I mean, who can't see the relationship between world war 2 and big band music and swig.

They dropped a huge bomb for god's sake! BAN THEM!

[ChrisBorg]

9. I wonder if he also ate cheese and drank milk. I hear Hitler did.

Connect the dot.

.

[Rincewind]

14. Hitler was also

a vegetarian, I'm just saying.:evilgrin:

[kentauros]

39. He was also a painter.

However, he also killed people next next door:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6omQ5JjjLsE&feature=player_detailpage#t=88s

:evilgrin:

[Doctor_J]

83. Hey, that sounds like something Beck would say

:thumbsup:

[Veracious]

10. Odin LOL is gonna be upset.

Teaching kids constant adversarial tactics as solutions to problems might have some link to all the violence we have in the world today. Hmmm:hi:

[Rebubula]

LOL...

...and the world was just puppies and rainbows with Kumbaya sing alongs with all countries prior to these games...


Seriously....

[Veracious]

12. Its called conflict resolution...

seriously...at some point you'd think enlightened individuals would understand, the use of violence as a solution is an epic fail.

http://www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2003/10/anderson.aspx

[Confusious]

33. Yes, I remember that rash of violence in the early 80's

All caused by Donkey Kong and Pac Man.....

Oh, yea, and this.....

Dr. Anderson's research has been criticized at times for overstating his results and failing to adequately acknowledge alternate views or limitations of the data on media violence. Other scholars have expressed the concern that his statements of causal certainty regarding video game violence effects are not well supported by the existing data.<1><2> Dr. Anderson also had ties to the former National Institute on Media and the Family, which is likened to a lobbying group,<3> and some of his studies have been funded by NIMF.<4> In Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Association, the U.S. Supreme Court criticized Anderson's studies, noting that they "have been rejected by every court to consider them", "do not prove that violent video games cause minors to act aggressively", and "suffer from significant, admitted flaws in methodology".<5>

Wikipedia is great for checking out quacks who just want to make a name for themselves.

[alp227]

11. It's an alright business decision, if the government did it that's a whole 'nother story n/t

[4saken]

13. I can understand Call of Duty, but World of Warcraft?

Just because he was a fan of it? I mean I can somewhat understand people being wary of games like Call of Duty, but MMORPGs like Warcraft have very different game-play. They aren't about mindlessly slaughtering everyone around you with twitch reactions, like CoD could be said to be about. MMORPGs like Warcraft have prominent social and team working aspects, while graphic violence is at a minimum.

I don't think there is any argument to be made for causation through a game like Warcraft. But at least this is only a few stores. Because the irrationality of doing this will lose respect from the young adults that they are in the most need of gaining respect from.

[moondust]

15. I don't think their culture is permeated with violence like the U.S.

Americans are conditioned to guns and violence everywhere all the time but some places are more sensitive to that kind of influence on their lives. I don't blame them.

[marions ghost]

17. true

it's so different that most Americans can't even imagine it.

[SkyDaddy7]

28. Even before the Christian Terrorist struck...

I have always wanted to live there just from reading about the place. It just seems like a more civilized place that honestly cares about it's citizens above all. Maybe I am wrong but that is my impression.

[marions ghost]

59. You're right, it's very different

In America we are forced to fight constantly--for basic rights, basic respect, basic fairness...and lately we are losing. America is a tragically divided country where the mass of people are exploited for the few. Y'know, banana republic.

There really are countries in the world where the government invests in the people, responds to them, where the people and the government still have some degree of mutual trust. A few. Norway is one of them. And life is so different there you can feel it when you get off the plane.

[LetTimmySmoke]

19. They're reacting the same way we did after Columbine.

I remember back then when everything from Doom to heavy metal music to grunge to pot to wearing trench coats became suspect.

[Capitalocracy]

25. I was in school wearing a trench coat when Columbine happened.

Was not fun.

[chrisa]

48. Yep. Seems like the US isn't the only country prone to moral panics.

[LynneSin]

57. What I remember was the NRA holding a rally about a month later in Columbine

or in a town right near the school

:scared:

[X_Digger]

136. Actually, it was their annual meeting, and most of it was cancelled..

By law, they had to have the meeting, since state law concerning non-profits provided that notification of a change of venue must happen X days before the meeting (which had already passed.)

In a letter to NRA members Wednesday, President Charlton Heston and the group's executive vice president, Wayne LaPierre, said all seminars, workshops, luncheons, exhibits by gun makers and other vendors, and festivities are canceled.

All that's left is a members' reception with Rep. J.C. Watts, R-Okla., and the annual meeting, set for 10 a.m. May 1 in the Colorado Convention Center.

Under its bylaws and New York state law, the NRA must hold an annual meeting.

The NRA convention April 30-May 2 was expected to draw 22,000 members and give the city a $17.9 million economic boost.

[LetTimmySmoke]

20. I'm also curious - how long are they pulling them for?

[Bladian]

26. Pulling WoW is a very stupid decision.

Pulling all of them is, but that one the most. WoW is nothing even remotely resembling real life. I run around as a 3 and a half foot tall creature with pink hair who turns invisible. C'mon. Really?

[NickB79]

29. It's hilarious to think people view video games as military simulators/trainers

Real military simulators have the practicing soldiers guns that look and feel real, have a felt recoil, require proper shouldering and sighting, etc. You get none of that when wiggling a couple of joysticks in your hands to line up a floating bullseye on screen and hitting the X button to reload when your online gun runs out of ammo.

It would be like saying I'm well-trained to drive the Indy 500 because I played a few racing games on my Xbox that had really, really good graphics.

[customerserviceguy]

36. Well said

The Vikings must be turning over in their graves at what Norway has become.

[Blandocyte]

37. Symbolic gesture of respect for the country's loss

like lowering a flag to half mast. It's their choice, their business. I respect their right to make the gesture.

[Violet_Crumble]

47. +1000 n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

130. Agreed.

[JonLP24]

38. Am I missing something?

What is wrong with World of Warcraft besides that it is very time consuming? I never played it but I imagined it was like Runescape except you have to pay for it and it is probably a better game.

Because he played the game? That is silly. Remove the music he likes, clothes that are the same color as his favorite color, also the same food he likes. That makes as much as sense as pulling WoW.

[Odin2005]

40. OK. that's just stupid.

[AngryAmish]

42. Mindless

They should turn off the internet since he used the internet.

[krabigirl]

65. Seriously.

[RC]

44. Reading through these posts...

I see the exact same single minded, defensive obsession in the war/violent gamers for their games as the gun nuts and their weapons being the answer to most any situation.
And to a great extent the same set single mindedness in some of the pro-Obama people here.

These are people that can be easily controlled with properly targeted propaganda. That is not reassuring.

[chrisa]

51. lol

We're just calling this moral panic what it is. The fact that you also lashed out at Obama supporters in this post is lame.

Your last sentence is ironic. You state that, but have no problem with people going on emotionally-charged scapegoating after a disaster. Maybe some people realize that, while this was a terrible disaster, decisions and blame made from emotions are almost never good.

[Remmah2]

52. I wonder if they'll ban fertilizer too?

Lots of ammonium nitrare nuts out there too.

[snooper2]

54. ROFL ROFL ROFL , I can get my Dakota sideways from Mario Kart Experience

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

All of us stupid fucking drones should dare pray to some fake god to be as enlightened as you :rofl:



You still addicted to Sprite and M&M's by the way?

[RC]

61. I don't drink pop and M&M make me sick.

So what's your point?

Oh, and I am on the 2nd floor, over looking the street. My mother died in 1973. Anything else?

[snooper2]

62. What's the name of the street?

And are you sure the support beams in the floor were engineered properly?

[davepc]

66. I keep waiting for the Jets to give me a contract

Don't they know i've been training for years to play in the NFL on the Madden NFL video game?

[JonLP24]

93. Arizona State needs to contact me to be AD or Coach

Don't they know I build Dynasties?

[JonLP24]

55. I guess it depends which side of the issue you view this from

because as someone who enjoys video games, I feel like I could say the same thing about single mindedness when it comes to people morally panicking about video games. Seriously, WoW is a problem? See what I mean? People that think WoW is a violent or war video game seems like the ones more likely to be easily controlled with properly targeted propaganda.

[plumbob]

45. It's amazing the investment some folks have in wasting time with games.

You'd think there was actually some sort of value or rights at stake.

No respect for the culture or actions of others, even though they just lost dozens of children to a violent shooter. Fer gawd's sake, don't criticize a commercial money-making operation that allows vicarious living, rather than real.

Love to see this kind of passion used on voter suppression, killing our old folks by killing their retirement and medical coverage, feeding kids who have crummy drug parents, and so on.

Games? Please.

[RC]

53. +1

Totally agree.

[semillama]

58. It's also amazing the investment some folks have

in telling other folks what constitutes a waste of time. But of course you partake in no forms of entertainment, I assume, because that would take time away from your political work. I also assume you spend no time on friends or family, since that would also take time away.

And in no way is anyone here expressing "no respect" for the victims by criticizing a knee-jerk reaction that will have no real effect except promote a culture of censorship.

[plumbob]

60. Yes, these types of antisocial activities isolate and cocoon people.

This leads to a disconnect. That's bad. See Bandura and others for info.

Now please provide me some research that would indicate that not drinking on the way to a funeral of a drunk driving victim will have no real effect except to promote a culture of censorship. The cases are exactly parallel to what we see here.

BTW, it's THEIR culture, not the one created here by convicts and religious nuts.

[JonLP24]

63. Like DU?

I'm sitting here in a living room by myself not talking to anyone. Is it different because we send text to each other? I do it in video games as well, if I'm not interested in playing NCAA Football 12 game with someone I go to the online lobby, usually West Coast Room and sit there and chat or invite someone to play or accept an invite. Last week I was at a friend's house and him, his friends, and I played Just Cause 2. We also watched some TV shows and the film Machete. In my experience, people as well as myself who play video games also have social lives. In fact playing video games can be a social event, I know in times past we drew up brackets for NBA Live and FIFA and played each other.

The not drinking on the way to a funeral... I'm not sure how that is remotely similar to this story.

[plumbob]

69. Similarity: the murderer says in his own manuscript that he used these

games as training. He killed the victims with a gun. So some folks have volunteered to cut back on shooting games for a bit in respect for the dead who were gunned down by a guy who used these games in his own words as training.

Someone killed by a drunk driver would not be shown respect by driving drunk to their funeral, so a person might decide not to drive drunk that day.

Okay?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

80. That's because he's insane.

And World of Warcraft isn't even a shooter-type game, so I don't see how he could "train" on it. There aren't even any guns in the whole game because it takes place in a Lord of the Rings type of fantasy setting, so his excuse makes no sense whatsoever.

Call of Duty games aren't even simulators. They're arcade-style games, so training on that is like saying you're training for Wimbledon by playing Wii Tennis.

This is like banning Catcher in the Rye because of Mark David Chapman.

[plumbob]

85. Nothing is being banned. Read the OP. Would you have taken

a copy of Catcher in the Rye to Lennon's memorial?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

90. Your analogy is weak.

This is about having these games available for purchase. Nobody is going to buy these games as an act of spite towards the victims. They will buy them for their own enjoyment.

So tying in these games with the acts of a lunatic is like tying in Catcher in the Rye with Mark David Chapman. And it doesn't make sense on other levels, too. World of Warcraft doesn't even feature guns of any type. It takes place in a medieval-fantasy setting, but because this idiot was a fan, the game is being taken off the shelves?

[plumbob]

104. Should the retailers be FORCED to leave them on the shelves? THEY

are the ones volunteering to remove them as a sign of RESPECT to the victims, because the SHOOTER said these were his training.

Should they? Or can they sell what they want when they want?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

111. Of course not.

I just think their logic is lacking here. And the fact that they're letting a lunatic dictate their inventory is insane. There's no way these games trained him to kill. They are not simulators. He's just passing the buck for his insanity.

And if anybody felt the need to show respect to the victims in this way, it should have been gun dealers.

[krabigirl]

64. Yeah, people enjoying themselves and having hobbies. Imagine that.

[plumbob]

71. The killer enjoyed himself, too. So did Gabby Giffords' shooter. Pleasure alone

is not much of a marker for an activity.

Hobbies and enjoyment are just like anything else - they can be positive or negative. I was a carpenter for many years, so we volunteer for Christmas in April, where we help elderly local folks repair whatever they need on their houses, like roofs, siding, plumbing, electric, insulation, you name it. Many folks have paid for houses, and they can pay their current bills, but they have nothing extra for major repairs.

We also volunteer at Habitat for Humanity, mostly younger families who cannot get the massive down payment or other Orwellian requirements to purchase a home, even though they can make a regular payment, as witness years of paying rent. Under supervision, they can do sweat equity and end up with a home for their family that they can afford.

Both these give me pleasure.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

79. Games = fake. Murder = real.

By your logic, Stephen King is just like Jeffrey Dahmer.

[plumbob]

86. No, the argument was that pleasure makes something right. It doesn't.

Much pleasure is derived from wrong action, so there must be more.

My logic is that just because someone likes it doesn't make it good.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

89. Yes, and you conflated games with reality.

In your response to another poster, you tried to tie in their defense of hobbies like video games with Jared Loughner because in both cases, pleasure was derived from the activity, despite one of them having very serious real-world consequences and one not so.

[plumbob]

105. Actually, there have been real-world consequences.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6127866/couples-online-gaming-causes-infants-death

In a story out of Korea, which is just now surfacing in the Western press, a couple in Incheon, South Korea, were arrested last week when their 4-month-old daughter died after being left alone by the couple for hours. The mother and father reportedly had gone to a nearby Internet cafe, lost themselves in playing Blizzard's massively multiplayer online PC game World of Warcraft, and returned to their home only to find the infant dead from suffocation. "We booked the pair on criminal charges, judging that when you consider the situation, they were responsible for their daughter's death," a policeman told the Chosun Ilbo newspaper. The couple reportedly told police, "We were thinking of playing for just an hour or two and returning home like usual, but the game took longer that day." The infant was the couple's only child.

All actions have consequences.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

110. So out of millions of gamers, you found two idiots?

Not a very good batting average for your argument.

[plumbob]

113. Completely demolishes yours that fantasy games have NO consequences.

Or is the death of a small child okay by you? Be careful - these are YOUR people.

Oh, here are two more casualties for you:

http://www.gamepron.com/news/2011/02/25/baby-girl-starves-while-mum-and-dad-play-games/

Baby girl starves while mum and dad play games
More sad news involving gamers this week. A young Taiwanese couple were apparently so obsessed with playing online games that they ignored their baby daughter, to the point where the baby girl starved to death.
The child was emaciated, half the size of an average girl her age, and police reported she was “just skin and bone with sunken eyes”. The computer monitor next to her crib was still displaying a gaming website when they arrived.
The cause of the girl’s death is still officially unknown, and prosecutors will look into the case to determine whether her parents are responsible. If convicted, they each face up to two years in prison for manslaughter.


This is the second death in Asia related to online gaming in recent weeks – earlier, a 30-year old Chinese man collapsed after an online gaming binge where he “hardly ate” and did not sleep for three days.



At least in the second instance, the gamer himself died, rather than a helpless dependent.

So, how many is okay?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

115. These people were so unbalanced already.

If it wasn't video games, it would be porn or Facebook or something else. Games are a multi-billion dollar industry with millions of users, the overwhelming majority of whom are regular, sane people who happen to enjoy an activity you don't approve of. You can find a few nutjobs with addictive personalities in any group. It's hardly an indictment of their hobbies. It's an indictment of themselves.

Regarding the Norway story, Modern Warfare 2 (which I've played) sold 7 million copies in one day. Somehow I don't remember hearing about 7 million crimes (or anywhere remotely close) where the perp cited the game as an influence. In fact, out of all the hours I played the game, I never once felt the need to commit violence or abandon my responsibilities as a citizen. In fact, I'm a pretty normal guy and I don't begrudge anyone their entertainment of choice provided they are not harming anyone.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

68. Then don't watch TV, movies, listen to music or post on the internet.

Because every minute you do is a minute you're not saving the world. :eyes:

[plumbob]

73. Saving the world not needed. Helping to destroy it is a problem, in my

opinion.

Folks who could do something but don't are a pet peeve of mine, I admit.

Especially when something goes wrong, like they ride their motorcycle with no helmet, no insurance, spill it on the highway, and then leave it to the county taxpayers to pick up their tab for the county hospital. Yeah, that pisses me off. Not hypothetical - there have been 4 cases in the last 6 weeks here locally that made the news.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

78. How do games help destroy the world?

[plumbob]

87. I never mentioned saving or destroying the world. That distractor belongs

elsewhere.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

88. You just mentioned it in post #73.

[plumbob]

106. That was in response to YOUR post which originated the whole thought.

I dismissed it, and now you are trying to make me responsible for your comment?

Well, that's a waste of time, then. I thought you actually wanted to have a discussion, not set up a series of traps.

Good day to you, and I hope you have a wonderful life with no consequences of any sort, ever.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

112. Traps?

:rofl:

You were the one who couldn't resist taking a dig at gamers and bemoaning their alleged apathy towards everything else. I didn't trap you -- you just fell off your high horse.

[plumbob]

114. No, you didn't trap me. You said something, accused me of saying it,

then said that proves I said it.

Now I really must stop wasting my time and yours with these silly tit for tat comments. People are dead. So get on your low horse or whatever would be good compared to a high horse and have a great night.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

116. If you don't want to be called on your posts, then don't be so condescending.

You were the one with the condescending attitude from the start. What did you expect would happen?

Have a good day/life/whatever.

[Akoto]

94. In my case, said games keep me sane.

I am disabled with a chronic pain condition, and bedridden much of the day, at age 26. There's little for me in the way of social interaction in my life.

Online RPGs offer me a way to connect with new people, and to achieve some things (however meaningless to you) which brighten my day. It's a vital distraction from the unceasing pain, and I credit those games for keeping me from ending it all in misery.

As to the OP, banning World of Warcraft is stupid. It's a game of gnomes and cow-people fighting dragons. There's not even any graphic violence.

[Confusious]

99. Maybe we should ban anything you don't approve of.

"No respect for the culture or actions of others"

Seems like that's the pot calling the kettle black. You seem to have disdain for anyone who plays video games. For that matter, anyone who doesn't live up to your expectations of a good citizen.

[plumbob]

107. Not disdain, just amusement that so much importance seems to be

attached to them.

And you're right - I have little respect for the culture of the USA, land of my birth and residence:

1) I want it.
2) I want it NOW.
3) I want more.
4) I want more NOW.

That's the culture of the USA.

Little more thoughtful scenario than greedy grabbing does seem a bit better to me.

I teach government, so yes, I am often disappointed that citizens have turned over the country to the corporations and their asslickers, I admit it.

[Confusious]

122. Nice deflection

That wasn't the what the statement was pointing to.

You have disdain for anyone that plays video games and doesn't live up to your idea of a good citizen.

[Violet_Crumble]

46. Wrong move. They should follow the lead of the US and bomb the crap out of another country! n/t

[plumbob]

74. NOW yer talkin"!!!

Actttttion!!!!

[Ignis]

102. !

:spray: :thumbsup:

[robcon]

50. Stupid, stupid stupid.

Parents, not laws, should define what's appropriate for kids to play with.

[plumbob]

75. If we didn't have so many fucked up parents, I might agree.

But you have those like the current FLDS guy on trial in Texas who has parents give him their 12 year old daughters to have sex with and experience the glory of God. There's 10,000 of them to start. Same kids who are not allowed to play with any toys, have any pets, and spend 4 hours a day in prayer on their knees, starting at 4 years old.

parents? meh

[LynneSin]

56. If this was the USA, Sarah Palin would be tellingus to reload and the NRA would have a rally

right on that island where all those kids died.

It's nice to see people aren't so uncivilized in other nations.

[Bill McBlueState]

70. it's fascinating how many people are missing line one of the story

"out of respect for victims"

It's not to reduce the likelihood of further violence, so speculating whether there's a cause-and-effect chain with violent video games really misses the point.

[plumbob]

76. Thank you! Folks getting bent out of shape for some daring to respect the DEAD

amaze me.

[Confusious]

97. How about

we ban all the TV shows he watched, the car he drove, the music he listened to, the clothes brand he wore and the celebrities he liked from working.

Maybe that will make them feel better.

[plumbob]

108. If he had listed any of those items as important to the shootings, I'm sure

those retailers might take a little holiday as well.

You DO understand that it is the businesses that are VOLUNTARILY doing this to honor the dead? You did read the OP?

Or should we just FORCE them to sell stuff no matter what they actually want to do?

[Confusious]

121. Still doesn't mean I think it's stupid

and and overreaction.

Maybe rock music did it too. We should ban that also.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

81. Wouldn't banning real guns be a more fitting gesture of respect?

[4saken]

103. How does this respect the dead if there is no causation implied?

That's like respecting the dead from the Columbine Shooting by stores removing the types of food they had for breakfast from their shelves. Doesn't make sense unless some form of causation is implied.

[Scout]

72. i don't know that those kinds of games and toys CAUSE more violence or not....

but i question what the hell is wrong with someone who gets great enjoyment out of pretending to kill other people.

:shrug:

sick/simple minds will be sickly/simply amused, i guess.

[plumbob]

77. Thank you. nt

[JonLP24]

91. LOL

Robert De Niro must be one sick fuck.

How many people did he pretend to kill? Oh, let me guess, he probably didn't enjoy it.

Anyways, I'm not sure how to explain it. For me it is the total package, the more you can do the more fun it is. Personally the Call of Duty, Halo, etc. games bore me because it gets repetitive and plus I always get killed.

[Confusious]

98. I guess you've never gone to see a war movie

or any movie that has violence then?

because that would be getting pleasure.

[Scout]

128. yeah, 'cuz going to see a movie is just like sitting at a video game participating

in and having fun pretending to kill people.

when i go to a movie, i am not pretending that i am killing people, and i am not enjoying the fake killing that is going on on-screen.

and i see very few violent movies.

[Confusious]

131. Spoken like someone

Who has no clue.

Holding a mouse is nothing like holding a real gun. I've done both.

Maybe people play them for other reasons? Did you think that far ahead?

[Scout]

132. spoken like someone who thinks they are a clever boots!

i also have held a mouse and a real gun. i'm quite a good shot if i do say so myself--handgun, rifles and my shotgun.

if people enjoy the playing, not the killing, then why not play other games, hmmmm?

Did you think that far ahead?

[Confusious]

133. I am a "clever boots"

I like action. I like fireworks. I like riding motorcycles. I like playing video games where things go boom. Doesn't matter how, or why, just as long as they do. I like to win. I like a challenge. and sometimes I like to get my frustrations out, and a FPS allows me to do that.

Of course, i also have the AMAZING ability to distinguish fantasy from reality. Shooting a 2D matrix is beyond a whole universe away from shooting someone, or being shot.

They're not my favorite, I prefer strategy games, but when I need to beat the tar out of something, they work.

Sorry I'm not an unemotional pacifist.

judging the actions of a whole group by the actions of one person is, well, just stupid. And so is saying that I like killing people because I play these games.

It's gotten to be a pretty complicated world, and jacks don't cut it anymore.

[Scout]

135. says you

"Sorry I'm not an unemotional pacifist."
no one said you were.

"And so is saying that I like killing people because I play these games."

no one said that either. i did say this: "but i question what the hell is wrong with someone who gets great enjoyment out of pretending to kill other people." which is not the same thing. but you knew that.'

:eyes:

[Confusious]

138. Like I said

I have an AMAZING ability to tell the difference between reality and fantasy. Shooting at a 2D representation of something on the screen is a beyond a whole universe away from shooting someone in real life.

If you think they are the same i.e. "pretending to kill other people", or even anywhere near the same, then I question your grasp on reality.

[Occulus]

117. What was the last shooter you played? n/t

[Scout]

129. i haven't found a video game that did not bore me almost immediately,

therefore i don't play them.

i used to like Duck Hunt a long time ago, when childish first husband had Nintendo games. but even that got old really quick.

[fascisthunter]

84. War is taught to children here as a form of entertainment

I play war-like violent games, but I will not claim it doesn't have an impact on the thought process of children. When something is sold, it is condone by that society at large.

Now, is censorship the answer? Probably not, but selling games that emulate war and its violence while the US is engaged in wars, is kinda creepy actually. It is a fact the US government helped create a war themed game... ask yourselves WHY? Training, enticing the young to maybe join the military someday... you betcha!

[marasinghe]

96. some positive signs there, from Norwegian merchants.

now if their govt. would pull their troops out,
& stop helping NATO blow the shit out of Afghanistan -
then, i'd say they're displaying some signs of civilization.

[Synicus Maximus]

100. I have no problem if a store or chain decides it does not want to sell

certain games, for what ever reason they have, to much violence or not enough violence as long as the government dose not get to decide which games can and cannot be sold.

[plumbob]

109. That is all that is happening, Synicus, and you can see the panic.

Wild, isn't it?

[Occulus]

118. And yet when I look at the very first two sentences you contributed to this thread,

I see the following:

plumbob Wed Aug-03-11 09:12 AM

Response to Original message

45. It's amazing the investment some folks have in wasting time with games.

You'd think there was actually some sort of value or rights at stake.

The very first thing you "contributed" was a twofold insult. You insulted a group of people who are numerous enough to have a group forum here on DU by saying the investment in their preferred form of entertainment- in many cases, an investment equal to or exceeding that of many cinema fans- is a waste of time, and then you dismiss that art form (and it is a legitimate art form, regardless of how you personally feel about it) as having no value, and creators of such having no fundamental right to create the same.

In short, your initial contribution was to throw two verbal grenades. Why the hell are you acting surprised by the results?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

123. Bingo.

[plumbob]

124. What grenades? Again, people are acting as if this is some sort of

critical activity. It is neither mentioned in the Bill of Rights, nor does it assist in the production of any commodity.

And why is it a grenade to point out that people really have emotions tied up in them, when the whole thread is just full of people extolling the value and virtue of them? That's just corroboration of the idea that a lot of people feel they're critically important.

It IS of no value to me. You cannot force your value onto me. I'm not trying to force my values onto you. Nor is any government limiting or prohibiting them in any way. The folks who make money selling them have decided to stop for a while in respect for the dead. Why are they not entitled to do that? It's their store and their business.

To sum:
I could not care less about games of any sort. Wasn't raised with them, have no appreciation for them, don't really approve of the idea of simply wasting time with them, and that is my personal feeling. I'm not trying to take away anyone else's games or any of that. I will not attend re-education after the Revolution to learn to love games. Merchants in Norway feel that they would like to suspend game sales for a while to honor the dead there. That's their decision, and it could cost them money, so it must be sincere.

Those are the simple facts, and all the careless reading in the world cannot change them.
Enjoy your games, but forget about forcing everyone else to think they're as wonderful as you do, and forget about forcing everyone else to play them or sell them under your terms, unless of course, you're willing to open your own business - then you can do as you please.

[JonLP24]

126. Oh geez

You have more posts in this thread than I do, I'm not 100% sure but I'm sure I've seen you in video game threads in the past. So your emotions are tied to the issue of games one way or the other.

You act like you never do anything for fun. Never watched TV or movies? Never played checkers? But you're on DU or better yet the internet, you know how many people waste time on the internet?

Nobody is trying to force anything on anyone. They're just giving their opinions, if I express the store is being silly for doing this, that is not forcing the store to sell the games. If you give your opinion about video games, expect other people to give their opinion as well. There is no "forcing" going on.

[plumbob]

127. You've never seen me on any video game thread in the past. I teach

online, and between responses, I post here, primarily on the Stock Market Watch (I teach government and economics). I watch 4 or 5 good movies a year. Haven't watched network TV in a long time. Have CNBC on for the kids when they play the stock market game just so they can know what evil fuckers look and sound like.

Never played checkers or chess. Played some dominoes as a teen, but that's 40 years ago.

I don't think life has to be drab, but I had an unfortunate childhood event - my dad died of a massive heart attack at 32, and my mom was committed to a state mental hospital where she died 31 years later. That left my German immigrant grandparents, who were 65 years old, to raise five children, age 6 months to 7 years old.

This is in 1959, so there are no food stamps, WIC, and so on. My grandfather was a self-employed carpenter, and he worked hard until he died at age 85, six months before my youngest sister graduated from Texas Tech. All five of us graduated college, and three of us earned master's degrees. We helped our grandfather on jobs starting at age 14. Imagine a 72 year old man framing houses in 100+ Texas heat in the summertime. He did all that and a lot more.

My grandmother, who cooked every meal for 7 people, did laundry not only for us, but for other people for pay as well, died 6 months before my grandfather. They took on an immense task of raising five small kids after the age of 65. I'm 60, so I'm really starting to understand what that actually means in terms of physical labor, never mind emotional effort. We all had to help, selling newspapers, eggs from our chickens, odd jobs, working with granddad, which helped me to learn concrete finishing, framing, drywall and finish, paint, plumbing, electrical roughing, roofing, cabinetry, door and window making, and more.

I think my grandparents did okay for people who did not speak a word of English and who had $22 between them when they came here in 1907. All five of us graduated college, some with two degrees. One is a teacher, both online and brick; another is VP for AT&T; another owns a concrete company in Houston; another is a nurse at a large public hospital; and the baby owns an instrument repair shop near Fort Worth. All of us want our own kids and grandkids to be better off than we were, just the same as our grandparents wanted for us.

So no, I never learned to swim, ski, golf, play poker, or any of a whole lot of things many people put great store by. I'm trying to nail down as best I can for a modest person a secure future for my kids and grandkids. I can only hope to as well as my own grandparents. Thanks for reading.

[JonLP24]

134. Hey -- that's cool that you teach

economics. I just finished up an economics course, today in-fact.

Anyways, good luck to you.

[plumbob]

137. Thanks! And good luck to you! nt

[provis99]

119. cool. Let's blame Heavy Metal while we're at it.

Really, this is a deja vu rerun of the Reagan 80s and Tipper Gore's crusade against music.

[lynne]

120. So much for them not over-reacting -

Quite an illogical knee-jerk response that mocks all that they profess to be by removing and limiting choice of recreational outlets for their citizens. There are over 12 million WOW players worldwide. One person - who is obviously mentally ill - that also happened to play WOW is not representative of all 12 million.

While what occurred was tragic, it is very sad and very disappointing to see such a fearful and illogical response.

[War Horse]

125. Nothing is being banned...

Two retail chains have decided to remove these games from the shelves "temporarily" (whatever that means). This has turned into "more than one" and "several" in the media, of course.

Official statements from both retailers say it's out of respect for the victims only, not based on any perceived causal relationship or harmful influence.

One of the retail chains will still be selling the games from their online store, make of that what you will...