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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 11:38 PM
Original message
Argentina planning a “nuclear powered” submarine with conventional weapons
Source: Mercopress

Monday, August 1st 2011 - 06:51 UTC
Argentina planning a “nuclear powered” submarine with conventional weapons

“President Cristina Kirchner has requested us to come up with a nuclear propulsion development project for our submarines” revealed Defence minister Puricelli during a conference. He added that Argentina has the “capacity to develop nuclear propulsion for submarines”.

“This means that when the submarine ARA Santa Fe, which has been waiting for some years leaves the shipyard she will not do it with its original propulsion but with nuclear propulsion developed in Argentina”, pointed out the Ministry in an official release following the minister’s announcement.

Puricelli also revealed that another submarine, ARA San Juan is already half re-furbished, “after spending years virtually idle and non operational”.

The Argentine project for a “Submarine with nuclear propulsion and conventional weapons” was actually launched a year ago when it was anticipated that Argentina was working on the possibility of developing a nuclear reactor to install in submarines.

Read more: http://en.mercopress.com/2011/08/01/argentina-planning-a-nuclear-powered-submarine-with-conventional-weapons
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't think we should allow the space race to proliferate to other countries.
If they advance their technology, we lose our technology edge. Only trusted, stable, nations should be allowed to have space programs, because the technology can be mis-used for warfare purposes.

:evilgrin:
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. it is science...
you cannot stop it.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Hey, we tried to stop Iran. And Iraq.
Science BAAAAD!

:sarcasm:

One of my personal heroes is a woman who won *two* Nobel prizes, who figured out the basics behind a now-legendary concept: If you take one kind of dirt, and put it near other kinds of dirt:

....You get free energy.

Kind of totally fucking amazing.

Sadly, she died *because* she soaked up so much energy.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Iranian Nobel Laureate Shirin Ebadi: Sanctions Okay, Nuke Program Is 'Propaganda'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x305981

Iranian Nobel Laureate Shirin Ebadi: Sanctions Okay, Nuke Program Is 'Propaganda'

First Posted: 04/21/11 07:32 PM ET Updated: 04/21/11 08:03 PM ET

WASHINGTON -- Iran’s leading human rights activist and its only Nobel Peace Prize winner softened her stance against economic sanctions aimed at the Islamist state -- even as she abandoned her defense of its nuclear program.

<snip>

Ebadi had previously toed the official line on the Iranian nuclear program -- that it is the country's inalienable, sovereign right. "Aside from being economically justified,” she once said, “it has become a cause of national pride for an old nation with a glorious history. No Iranian government, regardless of its ideology or democratic credentials, would dare to stop” it.

<snip>

“The claim that nuclear energy is the national pride of Iran is not true at all, and I don’t accept it. It’s the propaganda of the Ahmadinejad government,” she said. “The people of Iran have so many problems in their daily life they can’t even pay their gas bill. They don’t have time to think about stuff like that.”

Ebadi added that pursuing nuclear power -- even for peaceful ends -- no longer makes economic sense. And, as the disaster in Japan showed, it poses a threat to human safety because Iran’s nuclear facilities also lie on fault lines susceptible to earthquakes.

“The people of Iran don’t want another Fukushima,” she said, referring to the ruined Japanese power plant.

<snip>


Glad she's come to her sense on this issue.

The Bushehr project has so many problems, the Russian scientists working on-site warned it might become an "Iranian Chernobyl". Maybe people are taking it more seriously after Fukushima.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. It's playing with power.
We can live in grass huts, or have personal home reactors.

Finding the balance? That's tough.

Most westerners pump out more cancer from their cars than a nuke plant does, with no sense of guilt... so it's a funny world.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. No to nuclear power: Nine More Nobel Peace Laureates to world leaders
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x305982

http://www.nobelwomensinitiative.org/home/article/no-to-nuclear-power-nobel-laureates

No to nuclear power: Nobel Peace Laureates to world leaders

On the eve of the 25th anniversary of the Chernobyl nuclear disaster - and six weeks after the devastating nuclear disaster in Japan - nine Nobel Peace Laureates are calling upon world leaders to invest in safer forms of renewable energy.

The six women Peace Laureates of the Nobel Women's Initiative, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, Adolfo Perez Esquivel, and Jose Ramos Horta have sent an open letter to 31 heads of state whose countries are currently heavily invested in nuclear power production, or are considering investing in nuclear power.

Take Action - Join the call.
Read the open letter below.

"It is time to recognize that nuclear power is not a clean, safe or affordable source of energy," they say. "We firmly believe that if the world phases out its current use of nuclear power, future generations of people everywhere--and the Japanese people who have already suffered too much--will live in greater peace and security."

The letter goes on to highlight the serious long-term impacts of nuclear power production, including the challenges of finding safe and secure storage for nuclear waste. The Laureates point out that while countries continue to produce this expensive and dangerous energy, other cheaper and more sustainable sources are very accessible.

"There are presently over 400 nuclear power plants in the world--many, in places at high risk for natural disaster or political upheaval. These plants provide less than 7% of the world's total energy supply. As world leaders, you can work together to replace this small amount of energy from other readily available, very safe and affordable sources of energy to move us towards a carbon-free and nuclear-free future."

OPEN LETTER

April 26, 2011
To: World Leaders
From: Nobel Peace Laureates

Choose Renewable Energy Over Nuclear Power: Nobel Peace Laureates to World Leaders

On the twenty-fifth anniversary of the Chernobyl nuclear disaster in Ukraine--and more than two months after the massive earthquake and tsunami that devastated Japan--we the undersigned Nobel Peace Laureates ask you to invest in a safer and more peaceful future by committing to renewable energy sources. It is time to recognize that nuclear power is not a clean, safe or affordable source of energy.

We are deeply disturbed that the lives of people in Japan are being endangered by nuclear radiation in the air, in the water and in the food as a result of the breakdown at the Fukushima nuclear plant. We firmly believe that if the world phases out its current use of nuclear power, future generations of people everywhere--and the Japanese people who have already suffered too much--will live in greater peace and security.

"Twenty-five years after Chernobyl, some people claim things are getting better. I disagree," says Mykola Isaiev, a Chernobyl liquidator (a person who helped clean up the site). "Our children are sick from eating contaminated food and our economy is destroyed." Isaiev says he can relate to the liquidators now working in Japan. Like him, they probably did not question much the safety of nuclear power.

Consider the words of a shopkeeper in Kesennuma, one of the towns that bore the full force of the tsunami along the northeast coast: "That radiation thing is extremely scary. It is beyond a tsunami. A tsunami you can see. But this you cannot see."

The sad reality is that the nuclear radiation crisis in Japan can happen again in other countries, as it already has in Chernobyl in the former Ukraine SSR (1986), Three Mile Island in the United States (1979) and Windscale/Sellafield in the United Kingdom (1957). Nuclear accidents can and do result from natural disasters--such as earthquakes and tsunamis--and also from human error and negligence. People around the globe also fear the possibility of terrorist attacks on nuclear power plants.

But radiation is not just a concern in a nuclear accident. Each link in the nuclear fuel chain releases radiation, starting with drilling for uranium; it then continues for generations because nuclear waste includes plutonium that will remain toxic for thousands of years. Despite years of research, countries with nuclear energy programs such as the United States have failed to solve the challenge of finding safe and secure storage for "spent" nuclear fuel. Meanwhile, every day more spent fuel is being generated.

Nuclear power advocates must confront the fact that nuclear power programs provide the ingredients to build nuclear weapons. Indeed, this is the underlying concern with regards to Iran's nuclear program. While the nuclear industry prefers to ignore this huge threat in pursuing nuclear energy, it does not go away simply because it is downplayed or ignored.

We must also face the harsh economic truth of nuclear energy. Nuclear power does not compete on the open market against other energy sources, because it cannot. Nuclear power is an exorbitantly expensive energy option that is generally paid for by the taxpayer. The nuclear industry has received extensive government subsidies--taxpayer money--for underwriting of construction, liability caps and insurance for clean up and health costs. We can more responsibly invest this public money in new sources of energy.

There are presently over 400 nuclear power plants in the world--many, in places at high risk for natural disaster or political upheaval. These plants provide less than 7% of the world's total energy supply. As world leaders, you can work together to replace this small amount of energy from other readily available, very safe and affordable sources of energy to move us towards a carbon-free and nuclear-free future.

We can't stop natural disasters such as those that just occurred in Japan, but together we can make better choices about our energy sources.
We can phase out fossil fuels and nuclear power and invest in a clean energy revolution. It's already underway. Globally in the last five years there has been more new energy coming from wind and solar power than from nuclear power plants. Global revenue from solar, wind and other renewable energy sources surged 35% in 2010. Investing in these renewable energy sources will also create jobs.

Renewable energy sources are one of the powerful keys to a peaceful future. That's why so many people around the world--especially young people--are not waiting for governments to make the switch, but are already taking steps in that direction on their own.

Committing to a low-carbon, nuclear-free future will enable countries to partner with and expand the growing and increasingly influential global citizen's movement that rejects nuclear proliferation and supports renewable sources of energy. We ask you to join them and create a powerful legacy that will protect and sustain not only future generations but also our planet itself.

Sincerely,
Betty Williams, Ireland (1976)
Mairead Maguire, Ireland (1976)
Rigoberta Menchu Tum, Guatemala (1992)
Jody Williams, USA (1997)
Shirin Ebadi, Iran (2003)
Wangari Maathai, Kenya (2004)
Archbishop Desmond Tutu, South Africa (1984)
Adolfo Perez Esquivel, Argentina (1980)
President Jose Ramos Horta, East Timor (1996)



TAKE ACTION

Write to President Obama: Reverse your support of risky nuclear power, Beyond Nuclear

Appeal for total ban on nuclear weapons, International Campaign to Abolish Nuclear Weapons

LEARN MORE

Laureates Call for the Abolition of Nuclear Weapons, Nobel Women's Initiative.

After Fukushima, lessons to reduce nuclear terror, Kyodo News, 17 March 2011.

Nuclear Information and Resource Centre

Japan's unnecessary nuclear disaster, rabble.ca, 14 March 2011.

Global Hibakusha Forum Statement for a Nuclear-Free World, Peace Boat, 5 February 2011.

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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Free, sustainable energy has costs.
Energy kills.

We can live in the dark ages, or balance costs, that's the tough thing.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. It's not science, it's technology
anti-science pro-nuclear-war idiots don't know the difference.

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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Assume I am an idiot.
How do you differentiate?
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. oh, that's strange...
I just went back and saw your post I responded to. For some reason, the little devil smiley didn't show up at the time, so I took what you said seriously. Oops
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. That's how nuclear energy works.
Put dirt next to dirt: free energy.

The more you refine the dirt, the more energy you can get, but it's all still dirt.
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. No, I meant it was strange...
Edited on Wed Aug-03-11 04:43 PM by awoke_in_2003
that your smilie that showed you were joking around wasn't visible the first time (probably because of my browser), so I didn't catch the humor.

on edit: about space proliferation.
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Angleae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. First Brazil announces they are building one, now Argentina.
History does tend to repeat itself. If they follow the past, Chile will be next.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
4. Well shit on a hibiscus! Do the other nations know!?
Shit they better get their asses in gear and build one too! And for those landlocked nations, don't feel insecure - get a grant to build a canal through that other guys land so you too can have a KICK ASS boat!
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
5. What a waste of money. nt
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Capitalocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. yeah, we've got so much to spare over here in Argentina
didn't you know? everyone's rich here.

disaster
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. We'll be eating catfood, but at least we have nucular-powered submarines!
Edited on Tue Aug-02-11 03:55 AM by bananas
To protect the 20,000 foot deep deep-sea thick-crude oil deposits from terrorist dolphins!

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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 04:18 AM
Response to Original message
12. Why?
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Capitalocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. I'm living in Argentina at the moment
and... I have no idea. Actually this is the first I've heard of it.
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. So they can control the shipping around Cape Horn.
Edited on Wed Aug-03-11 06:13 AM by sofa king
It's one of the largest and most strategically important big-ship commerce routes in the world, and with the British firmly planted in the Falklands, they are the obvious naval force which must be strategically balanced (or partly balanced) before any real negotiations for a turnover of the Falklands or basing rights there can begin.

That forlorn corner of the world managed to see four of the twenty-or-so most important naval operations of the 20th Century, by my count (Coronel, 1914, fought off of Chile but still in the same strategic area; Battle of the Falklands, 1914; the operations of the Graf Spee, including the Battle of the River Plate, 1939; and the Falklands War.

Just the other week, Brazil began making nearly identical rumbles. So obviously, South America has decided that it is time to begin entertaining the idea of policing its own seas, which is expensive and should be welcomed by the other naval powers.

But it won't be welcomed, because what the South Americans are going to expect and demand is the use of the Falklands as the necessary naval springboard for that responsibility, and Britain and the United States will be unwilling-at-best to give it back. Notice I never once had to mention the actual residents of those islands or their political inclinations. They are, unfortunately, irrelevant to the military question and will likely be treated as such as soon as the South Americans field a force capable of taking them back.

Edit: What is strange to me is that the Russians have finally perfected the peroxide systems the Germans cooked up at the end of WWII. Peroxide systems have all the same advantages of a nuclear sub: extended underwater operations, extended range, and even quieter running because there's not a giant steam turbine to silence. They should also be cheaper, less specialized, less important to keep secret and secure, and perfectly suited to the coastal and littoral operations the Argentinians and Brazilians are sure to want and need.
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CJvR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. AIPs
Edited on Wed Aug-03-11 01:43 PM by CJvR
There are two AIP systems in operation today that doesn't use nuclear power. The Swedish Stirling system and the German fuelcell system, bith with the advantage of not packing a noisy reactor into the sub. Hell buy a few Russian Kilos instead.

As for "needing" the Falklands for basing - LOL! Both Argentina and Chile have bases at Tierra del fuego which is far far closer to the Horn. The only thing a nuclear sub really add to the equation is strategic mobility, so if the Argies want to lurk off Gibraltar in a hurry a SSN is the way to go, otherwise SSK are generally preferable.

ps: I wonder if they are playing around with atomic batteries rather than reactors, a more unusual and intresting development in that case.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-11 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #12
25. They just realized the Monroe Doctrine has been dead since the Falklands war? (nt)
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CJvR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
20. Sounds unusually...
...stupid, even for Argentinians.

They have baerly been able to afford new batteries for the subs they have so now they are going nuclear - with an old obsolete hull?
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babydollhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-11 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
23. world domination through soccer is better!


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paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-11 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Here, here! Hopefully the national team will settle and improve.
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