Jared Lee Loughner on 24-hour suicide watch

[RamboLiberal]

Source: CBS News

Tucson shooting rampage suspect Jared Lee Loughner was put on a 24-hour suicide watch this month at a federal prison in Missouri after he asked a staff psychologist to kill him, federal prosecutors said in newly released court documents.

A 24-page filing by the U.S. Attorney's Office in Tucson also said prison staff report that Loughner has been pacing in circles near his cell door, screaming loudly, crying for hours at a time and claiming to hear messages from a radio.

The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals on Friday night denied an emergency motion by defense lawyers to keep prison officials from forcibly medicating Loughner with a psychotropic drug.



Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/07/23/national/main20082565.shtml?tag=stack

---

Hope they are not letting him listen to Glenn Beck or the other RW blowhards.

[thereismore]

1. Better than a death sentence. nt

[Gore1FL]

11. My thoughts exactly. n/t

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheDebbieDee]

3. Welcome to DU! I hope you enjoy your visit here!

There's nothing more obvious than than being obvious!

[freshwest]

32. Aww, I missed it. Good riddance. Thanks Mods!

[Ohio Joe]

4. Welcome!

I'm sure you will have a wonderful stay... or maybe not.

[Trajan]

5. Funny how the target of his hatred just happened to be a respected Democrat

and something the followers of Rush and Hannity wished they themselves could have done ....

Dont tell me it is not true, because I have heard RWers say they wanted to kill Liberals in real life .....

Now ... Enjoy your short stay and dont eat the pizza alone ....

[givemebackmycountry]

6. See Ya... alerted.

DUmbass?

Fevered swamp?

[panader0]

7. What exactly did Sheriff Dupnik say that you disagree with?

Enjoy your stay....

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

9. Whoever the judge is that is allowing him to refuse medication

is a freaking idiot who should be taken off this case for incompetence.

[Adsos Letter]

12. Agreed. Sounds like the man is schizophrenic.

[bananas]

28. He is being forcibly medicated, unless I'm reading this wrong

It says they resumed medicating him on Tuesday.
Re-ordered these sentences from the article in time order:

...
Loughner was forcibly medicated between June 21 and July 1 after prison officials determined his outbursts there posed a danger to others. He was given twice daily doses of Risperidone, a drug used for people with schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and severe behavior problems.

Prison officials stopped doing that on July 2 after the 9th Circuit granted his lawyers' request for a temporary stay of involuntary medication.
...
Records show the prison's medical and psychology staff feared Loughner's condition could worsen without immediate care and resumed medicating him on Tuesday.

Loughner's attorneys argued that his due-process rights were being violated and filed an emergency motion Thursday with the 9th Circuit, asking that the forced medication be stopped until his appeal is resolved.
...
The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals on Friday night denied an emergency motion by defense lawyers to keep prison officials from forcibly medicating Loughner with a psychotropic drug.
...

[Warpy]

17. Not medicating him at this point is inhumane

It's already been pretty well established that he's out of his mind and unfit to stand trial. Leaving him raving and suicidal does no one any good, least of all Loughner.

At least give the guy some peace. Lock him up, keep him off the streets and away from guns, yes, but don't force him to live in the stark terror of mental illness.

[EFerrari]

18. Exactly. n/t

[Yo_Mama]

21. I agree

Anyone who's ever known a schizophrenic and seen him or her "go off" realizes that it is a horrifying experience for the person.

The guy was insane. No one's disputing it. He's never going to get the death penalty. Bad as his crimes were, I'd sit in a jury room for a year before I sent this guy to death.

The constant stress he is under is probably going to slowly kill him anyway - at this point he's effectively being tortured by the judicial system that is theoretically protecting his rights.

[fujiyama]

34. Tortured by the judificial system?

Really? His own defense lawyers are the ones arguing against forcibly medicating the SOB. Stuff this guy with meds, give him a trial and lock him in a cage never to be seen by society ever again. Personally this is a case where I would't give a shit if they put him in front of a firing squad, a guillotine, or just hanged him. He killed a child. That's enough to give him the death penalty right there. But if he is truly insane, the only interest society has is that this sick fuck never sees the light of day ever again. I suppose to be compassionate they can zonk him out with meds.

[originalpckelly]

40. Really?

How would you feel if he had been Jared Loughner with the brain tumor, who'd been experiencing severe headaches and then one day, as he drove past Representative Giffords' "Congress on the Corner" meet up, had a seizure, forcing his foot to push the accelerator to the floor, the car went out of control, killing just as many people in the process, including the same little girl?

What you are dealing with here is a brain illness. I say that, because people tend to think that a mental illness is somehow a choice. Jared Loughner had no more of a choice in this matter than someone with a brain tumor. When he began experiencing symptoms of his illness, he was denied proper medical care. How would you feel if it was any other illness of the brain?

I think we all know Jared Loughner with the brain tumor, had he survived the crash, would be in a hospital right now receiving medical care. We would still call it a tragedy, but beyond a few hearings to make sure everything was on the up and up, he wouldn't be facing what he is now.

And you know why?

Because everyone can be Jared Loughner with the brain tumor, but only a few people are Jared Loughner with a brain illness so severe like schizophrenia that it truly does eliminate all concepts of free will, something I feel would be necessary to actually commit a crime.

Only a few people get that. I'm one of them. I don't have schizophrenia, but I have bipolar disorder with psychotic features. When I was severely manic a couple years back, I too committed a crime. I obviously didn't kill anyone. It was just a misdemeanor.

However, it changed my perspective on the matter.

But having gone through the legal system in the way that I did, showed me we need to have totally new court system specifically for individuals with mental illnesses, almost like the juvenile system.

In no way can it be considered justice to sentence this man to a prison. He is obviously dangerous, and must be kept permanently in a secured mental heath facility somewhere.

You have no idea the torture it is to do something wrong when you absolutely have no control, and then to have to live with that the rest of your life.

[Search and Destroy]

22. Who is forcing him?

He can accept medication whenever he wants to.

[EFerrari]

24. No, decompensated schizophrenics do not have the agency you suggest. n/t

[Warpy]

27. I see you've never dealt with the insane.

They can't make rational choices because they're not rational.

[happyslug]

46. That is the heart of the Argument, is he insane?

The Prosecution is saying he is SANE, if if the Defendant is sane he has the absolute RIGHT to refuse any and all medication.

It is the DEFENSE, that is trying to hold the Prosecution to have it one way or another, the Defendant is either SANE, and can be tried NOW without any medication (What the Prosecution is saying as to the Defendant) OR he is insane and can NOT make a rational Decision (i.e. he was insane when he did the shooting).

The Prosecution wants it both ways, they want the Defendant to be ruled INSANE unless he is on the Medication so the Defendant can "Help" in his own defense so the Defendant can be tried at the present time AND the Prosecution wants the Defendant ruled to be SANE enough to be convicted of Murder (i.e. jury will not rule the Defendant was insane at trial).

What needs to be done is the Prosecution to agree that the Defendant is insane, do a quick trial with BOTH sides stipulating to the Defendant's insanity and get a Judge to rule the Defendant was Insane at the time of the Killing and send him for long term Mental Care.

It is clear by the actions of the Prosecution that the Prosecution does NOT want to agree to such terms, they want a jury to rule the Defendant sane and to sentence him to Death (Remember he is on trial for Murder, his intended victim survived, but the others who were shot died). The Defendant's obvious insanity is a hindrance to any trial of the Defendant, especially if the Prosecution wants the Death Penalty.

Thus the heart of the dispute is simply is the Defendant insane today and thus was he insane at the time of the killings? If he is sane enough to be tried for Murder, he is sane enough to refuse medication, if he is so insane he MUST be given the Medication, does that NOT make him so insane that he could NOT have the required INTENT to do Murder (as opposed to mere killing, it is the INTENT that makes a Killing MURDER, not the act itself, the Defense is going to acknowledge he did the Killing, the issue will be did he have the necessary INTENT for it to be MURDER or Manslaughter).

[Posteritatis]

29. Agreed. (nt)

[vanbean]

45. Good on Ya, Warpy! Spoken like a true democrat.

:yourock:

[RobinA]

62. I Believe

that it was his own lawyer who petitioned to have the forced medication stopped. It's a bit of a Catch-22, because if they can medicate him into seeming somewhat normal and able to participate in his own defense, they can try him. The prosecutor gets up and says something like "Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, he's sitting right over there and he looks pretty sane to me."

[X_Digger]

20. Honestly, I'm ambivalent.

I'm not a big believer in forced medical care. Or denying medical care. It's the patient's choice.

If he'd been adjudicated insane and not merely incompetent to stand trial, that's another story. But he's in an in-between area (from my perspective).

Not so out of it as to have someone else make his medical decisions, but out of it enough to not be able to assist in his own defense.

[EFerrari]

23. At this point, he has no choice, his brain has been hijacked. n /t

[X_Digger]

25. Agreed. n/t

[originalpckelly]

37. Yes, it's really terrible that DU just doesn't understand it.

[freshwest]

33. Agreed. Difficult to say from our vantage point. Worse, I'm having trouble feeling bad for him.

[originalpckelly]

36. No, no it isn't.

It's actually torture to allow himself not to get proper medical care. You see, this shit is the reason why he even had the chance to do it in the first place.

[RobinA]

64. Well, Then You Get Into

forcing him to get medication against his will. That's a sticky wicket. I work with severe mental illness, I have a good friend who has BP, and I see the damage it wreaks. I STILL gotta pause when it comes to forcing people to take a powerful chemical. And I KNOW they are out of their minds. I just worry about the slippery slope.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[X_Digger]

43. If he's adjudicated as such, I have no problem with forced medication.

Until that point, however, our legal system protects the choices he makes (whether those choices are right or wrong).

[vanbean]

47. Several years ago I had a brain injury. I had blood on my brain. I was crazy, but you know what?

When you are crazy, you don't know it. I had enough faith in friends, my spouse, children, and relatives to become convinced that I was out of it. You have to experience it to understand it. During the tests, the MRI's and CAT Scans, and all kind of other tests, I thought I was being tortured.

[RobinA]

63. In My State (PA)

there is no "adjudicated insane." If they decide you are "incompetent to stand trial" they will attempt to make you competent enough to stand trial. Usually with medication. If that fails there's no trial and no finding of guilt or not. It's a little more fluid that "NGRI" Not Guilty for Reasons of Insanity. Or, "guilty but mentally ill," which are more definitive end points.

[X_Digger]

71. That does seem to leave out that middle ground. n/t

[blueclown]

42. Sorry, you've got the facts all wrong.

He was being forcibly medicated, as per a judge's rule. Defense attorney's for Loughner appealed that decision. The appeal failed. He is being forcibly medicated at this point.

[EFerrari]

51. He is now being medicated AGAIN. Which means

his medication was interrupted and he decompensated, which was unnecessary. And since those meds are not like knock out pills, getting him put back together can take days or even weeks if they do it carefully.

[blueclown]

52. Is there any evidence that he was taken off medication during appeal?

Where's the evidence?

[EFerrari]

53. 1) It's in the article and 2) He's obviously decompensated. n/t

[bananas]

76. See the timeline in post #28

at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4933200&mesg_id=4933856

[annm4peace]

72. I agree. this guy probably been tortured enough by his own mind

it says a lot about us as a country in how we treat the very sick.

I don't think it does the victims or the victims memory any good to let him suffer so badly that is his screaming and crying.

[alp227]

10. he's a disgusting piece of garbage, let him die

[kestrel91316]

13. Those defense lawyers are sick fucks for trying to deny a schizophrenic

antipsychotic meds. SHAME ON THEM. The man is ill. The fact that it is his brain and mind that are sick should make NO difference.

[RobinA]

66. Isn't It Just

possible that they don't want him medicated into looking like Joe Next Door to a judge and jury? If I'm his lawyer I want him stark raving mad for the duration. No, it's no humane, but it could save his life. Schizophrenia or not, this guy is not sympathetic. If you haven't seen the difference the right antipsychotic cocktail can make, you probably aren't going to believe that Mr. SemiNormal Looking Guy sitting next to his lawyer in court can be a homocidal maniac when unmedicated.

[lunasun]

14. needs meds/ could hurt staff

[Grassy Knoll]

15. Obviously glenn blech & liar lumpy is rotting his brain........

Maybe a sample of Thom Hartmann could make him stick his
tooth brush through his temple.

[udbcrzy2]

16. Sounds like defense is really fighting for that insanity defense n/t

[originalpckelly]

38. I know, maybe because the man is and was insane.

Funny that, trying to use an insanity defense for someone who is nuts at the time a crime happened.

[udbcrzy2]

73. We don't know he is insane yet because he hasn't been examined:)

[jpak]

19. Jared Lee Loughner - too insane to stand trial for murder - but OK to buy a gun and 30 round clips

yup

[Doctor_J]

26. And some more shooting sprees on LBN P1

I wish i could laugh at how absurd it is

[happyslug]

48. At the time he purchased the Weapons, he had NOT be even CHARGED with being Insane,

The key to ANY refusal to being able to buy a weapon is that someone with the required authority has ruled the person a danger to himself or others. People can suffer from some severe mental problems and still be sane as far as the law is concerned (The Classic example is Winston Churchill, he suffered from what we now call Bi-polar, then called Manic Depression, when he was up, he was up, when he was down, he did some real stupid moves, such as ordering the sinking of the French Fleet at the time of the Surrender of France in 1940, the British Admiral who did the sinking called it stupid, worse, would HARM British efforts to stop Hitler, but the Admiral followed orders, sunk the French Fleet, and when British forces invaded France in 1944, all their vehicles were marked with American Stars, for the French liked the Americans, but still hated the British for sinking their Fleet in 1940).

More on the Sinking of the French Fleet in ALGERS, where Hitler had no ability to take them over:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-el-K%C3%A9bir
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/articles/merselkebir.aspx

My point is simple, the issue is the LEVEL of the Defendant's mental restrictions. A person can suffer mental impairments that prevent him or her from working, but still be sane when it comes to Criminal Acts. Churchill suffered from Bi-Polar, but no one ever questioned his sanity. The same with the Defendant at the time he purchased the weapons no one called into question his sanity, so it was possible for him to buy a weapon. Today, a JUDGE has ruled him to suffer from enough mental problems that he needs medication. Notice the difference, a JUDGE has made a ruling. The 9th Circuit only ruled that the decision of the Judge has to follow the law, and the Law requires a finding on incapacity before someone can be FORCED to take Medication. The Prosecution does NOT want a finding of incapacity, for that would mean the Defendant was incapacitated at the time of the Killings.

The Problem here is the Prosecution wants it both ways, the Defendant is sane enough to be tried for Murder, but NOT sane enough to refuse medication. At the time of the purchase of the weapons no one was even questioning the mental hearth of the Defendant or that would require the expenditure of Prosecution Money for someone who had committed no crime as of that date. Prosecutors want cases that make headlines where they are the "Good Guys" such as Murder Cases, NOT motion to rule someone insane, that if it is reported it is a back page report AND the Prosecution is looked upon as the "Bad Guy" for taking someone's rights away from them. Prosecutors prefer the former and avoid the later if they can help it.

[RobinA]

67. "Insane"

doesn't mean the person has to be screaming, ripping his hair out and rending his garments in the public square.

[babydollhead]

30. I wish he's have just begun with suicide, Start with Yourself

[ileus]

31. I hope his mind tortures him til the end of his days...

[originalpckelly]

39. And what if you were that sick?

[Auntie Bush]

41. I hope he's enjoying life in prison. One good reason for rejecting he death penalty.

He's suffering more punishment being alive. How much pain and anguish and regret is McVeigh experiencing now? He got off too easy. Don't let Laughner off so easy too.

[LaurenG]

44. This is not good. He is mentally ill.

Suffering for doing something while you are out of your mind is inhumane, not to mention being out of your mind and not having the benefit of medication to help you reason is even worse.

How can he understand what he did when the voices in his head are tormenting him and telling him things that aren't real?

This is no better than medieval torture.

[Doctor_J]

49. Why don't they just let him kill himself?

seems to be win-win

[pitohui]

50. yea i don't get the gain from keeping someone alive to torture them forever

if it was a tim mcveigh and there was some question about allies and helpers that needed to be tracked down...i could say some argument could be made to keep him alive while the other members of the terrorist gang were found and convicted

but this as far as i know is a CLASSIC lone nut crazy dude who simply does not need to be ever out walking the streets again, yet what kind of life is it to keep someone alive for decades in a cage pumping them full of medications?

my vote is the humane thing is to let him go, no victim will be restored to life or health if only society keeps torturing the creep long enough

i realize we have to go thru the motions of being humane to this dude, but his life is utterly worthless to him and everybody else so i don't see any great harm and probably much good that would come of allowing him to end it

[EFerrari]

55. You're making a lot of assumptions about this guy

and what can be done for his mental state.

[pitohui]

56. yes but they are sensible assumptions

many people have medication resistant mental illness, perhaps he is one of them, keeping him alive is keeping him in a hell of torture and this voices of hate screaming in his head for potentially decades

many people respond to medication, perhaps he is one of them, in that case, he can be placed on drugs and then come to reality onto to learn that he shot a beloved woman in the face, destroyed her brain, shot a beloved 9 year old stone cold dead, and so on and so on...and that as a consequence he will be kept in a cage forever, with a life of no happiness, freedom, or purpose

or some mix of the two, sometimes the meds work and he's aware of what he did and how he is caged forever, and sometimes he's off his nut screaming crazy

but however it works out there is no decent life possible for this guy, his disease spoiled his life, that's it, forever, there is no treatment that will turn back time or make his life a life that any of us would find worth the living

i realize this guy did not choose to be crazy, i really do, but there is no positive benefit to keeping him alive, not for himself, not for society, not for anyone...i think if he wants to choose suicide for himself that's fine and it should be his option

[RobinA]

68. Do You Also

advocate the gassing of terminally ill people? Paralyzed people? I know people who are in this man's shoes. Some are sick enough that they feel they were justified. Others? I have no idea how they live with it. But they do. One foot in front of the other, one day at a time. I suspect that they find their lives worth living.

[EFerrari]

69. No, in fact, you are extremely ill informed about schizophrenia

and especially if you are under the belief that what a person in crisis says bears any relation to a conscious choice.

[EFerrari]

54. Because the prison isn't run by sociopaths (hopefully).

[pitohui]

58. my guess is the prison *is* run by sociopaths

you have a more positive view of those who go into the prison industry than i do, i think it is not a calling that calls to the kind but rather a calling that calls to the vindictive

there are voices on this very thread calling for him to be tortured forever, on this very forum, there are regular cries against the death penalty because it is "too easy"

it is a sad reality that there are a great many people in our society who enjoy torturing others and some of those people are savvy enough to put themselves in jobs where they can be paid to do so

look, i don't like the jerk, to assassinate a group of democrats trying to improve people's lives in the damn grocery store, that is lower than fucking low...but i still don't believe in torturing the guy, he doesn't belong out in society, so what does that leave? the death penalty or suicide or life in a cage, that's the choices

let him die if he wishes, it seems the most humane way of dealing w. him, i don't think it makes workers or society more humane if there are large numbers of people who as a job are actually keeping people alive so that they can be miserable in a cage for decades

[EFerrari]

60. You don't have enough informaiton to postulate that very big "if". n/t

[X_Digger]

57. That's a rather shocking attitude to find in a DU poster.

We tend to want to treat mental illness, and support mental health care.

[Doctor_J]

59. This guy killed a bunch of people on Glen Beck's orders

What possible good can be done by keeping him alive against his will? Do you think that spree shooters should be prevented from doing themselves in after their homicide is done? I tend to think of that as a GOOD thing.

[EFerrari]

61. That says a lot more about you than about this situation, doesn't it?

[X_Digger]

65. 'His will' is not his own at the moment.

That's kind of the point, n'est-ce pas?

As someone upthread said much better than I can, if Loughner had an operable brain tumor that affected his judgement and likely made rational thinking impossible, would you feel the same way about letting him kill himself?

[RobinA]

70. Civilization

requires that we do. I think.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lil Missy]

75. Withholding his meds is barbaric. The man is mentally ill.