American marine ashamed of Iraq experience

[JoFerret]

http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2004-04/17/article04.shtml

CAIRO, April 17 (IslamOnline.net) – Ever since his return home last April, U.S. Marine Jimmy Massey has had a hard time sleeping, feeling "ashamed" of involvement in killing no less than 30 Iraqi civilians during his one-month mission.

"We had no qualms about opening fire on any car crossing a checkpoint without hauling up," he told the French newspaper L’Humanite on Tuesday, April 13.

"We, soldiers in the battalion, shot dead 30 people in one month, during our mission to seal off cities and lay a tight siege on villages," Massey recalled.

Several of such harrowing accounts still jut clear into his memory.
<more>

[Dark]

1. I-R-A-T-N-A-M

This war keeps scaring me more and more. And, now, with talks of reinstating the draft. God, we can't let Bu$h stay in power.

[aquart]

2. We're gonna have a lot of suicides.

[JoFerret]

22. This story was from January

It can only be much worse now:

Stress epidemic strikes American forces in Iraq

The war's over, but the suicide rate is high and the army is riddled with acute psychiatric problems. Peter Beaumont reports

Sunday January 25, 2004
The Observer

Up to one in five of the American military personnel in Iraq will suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder, say senior forces' medical staff dealing with the psychiatric fallout of the war.

This revelation follows the disclosure last month that more than 600 US servicemen and women have been evacuated from the country for psychiatric reasons since the conflict started last March.

At least 22 US soldiers have killed themselves - a rate considered abnormally high - mostly since President George Bush declared an end to major combat on 1 May last year, These suicides have led to a high-level Department of Defence investigation, details of which will be disclosed in the next few weeks.

<more>
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1130771,00.html

[9215]

32. and drug addict/alchoholics too. nt

[mike_c]

3. a bit late to acquire a conscience, IMO....

"We had no qualms about opening fire on any car crossing a checkpoint without hauling up,"

No qualms? I hope he doesn't equate his difficulty sleeping with his victim's difficulty breathing.

[NNN0LHI]

4. Keep it up

Pretty soon no one will talk about what they have seen and done in Iraq. This guy has a conscience or he would not be talking about it.

Don

[mike_c]

5. I'm suggesting that his conscience would have been better used

had it contributed to NOT killing those innocent people.

[NNN0LHI]

6. Keep it up n/t

[54anickel]

7. No disrespect intended here, but have you served in a war? Have

you "been there, done that"?

[mike_c]

8. nope, I'm a proud CO who still has the ashes of his draft card....

None of which is relevant to this discussion. See #3 above.

Look, I'm sorry for this guy, but I'm sorrier for the innocent people he now admits to having "no qualms" about murdering in cold blood. Personally, I'd like to see him indicted and tried for war crimes. He ADMITS that they were killed for no good reason. I'm happy that he's trying to deal with the psychic fallout, but dammit, his victims will never have that opportunity, will they?

on edit: no disrespect taken, but thanks for pointing that out nonetheless.

See also here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x493340

[yardwork]

25. Ok, I respect your right to express an opinion, but....

in your zeal to present your point of view, I think you may be missing the point of the marine's story.

Yes, he chose to sign up for the military. Yes, he followed directions. You are saying that you would not have made those choices. He did. Let's hear his story.

This man is reporting about what he saw and did as part of the American force invading and occupying Iraq. He's not the one who made the decision to go there.

I say let's listen to what the soldiers have to say. Let's encourage them to tell their stories. We need them and their families on OUR side, or else Chimpster will just get himself fake-elected all over again.

[JoFerret]

33. Yes. Tell their stories

Now, and later. It was not until the stories of WW1 emerged in the 1920's that sense could be made of the war. No-one would listen while the war was raging. Or few. The soldiers did though.

[MikeG]

18. I have not.

But I can imagine its a nightmare. That's why I question some of the things in the article and will not condemn any of the actions of the troops. I don't believe that are purposely shooting women and children.

[Toots]

48. Then your head is in the sand

They may not purposly target women and children they just don't bother to differentiate between them. They open up on cars without knowing who is inside. They do the same for buildings they find suspect. They do it out of fear. Fear of the unknown and have a "Kill em all ~ let God sort em out" attitude. Can't blame them terribly as they have no idea where the next shot may come form. We must blame the people who sent them there. They enlisted to fight for America ~ You and Me. They didn't enlist to fight Bush*'s dirty little war but they are soldiers and their job is to "Do or Die not to Question Why" These guys and gals are going to have to live with a horror they can not shake for the rest of their lives. I know what they will have to live with and I am sorry for all of us.

[tlcandie]

17. When you are on duty and scared I think that fear overrides all

sense of conscious when people are NOT prepared for something AND most of these soldiers were/are not prepared for what is happening over there.

They went being told they would be liberators and now they are murderers, pure and simple. THAT is going against all they have learned and been told.

They wake up ONLY after something clicks and they can see the truth of it, but then most are stuck and fall into depression or whatever while trying to battle the head/heart/conscious game.

I don't envy them their positions...I could never live with myself. My heart goes out to them as well as all the Iraqi people who are on the receiving end of people who are sleep deprived, hooked on go-go pills and exhausted, mentally, physically, and emotionally.

Nightmare in the land of Babylon.. :cry:

[Just Me]

21. I salute your FOR REAL "compassionate" post!!!!

I admonish F-A-K-E humility which cannot possibly know compassion,...for any human being which suffers under this dark leadership.

[JoFerret]

26. Agreed

...and that is why the lying liars who sent then must be the objects of our wrath and indignation.

[Just Me]

14. OH, yeah,...where is the compassion in that crap?

None. Zero.

Do you want to be so destructive?

[mike_c]

19. where was "compassion" when this soldier was murdering...

...innocent Iraqi civilians? That's a WAR CRIME. Would you have advocated similar "compassion" for the war criminals at Nuremburg?

edited: to correct Massey's service designation in light of posts below.

[Just Me]

24. Maybe, you underestimate humanity's evolution,...

,...since then. Look, I don't deny that we are confronting a war-mongering and profiteering force. But, I will not deny the waves of humanity forged in advance of these dark f*cks. WE are making a difference,...even though it may seem so small when we compare the "profits" of the rat droppings in comparison to our own.

WE are impacting the shape of this world,...even though it may seem to be little given our immediate rewards,...which are NA-DA.

As an observer,...take a look at the impact humanity is finally bringing to bear,...in an incredibly historical way.

:bounce:

Humanity is showing how amazing it is,...against forces which seek to enslave us. We are doing pretty freakin' spectacular,...and have just started our quest!!!

[mike_c]

28. nice....

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MikeG]

9. I think we should consider the source. Islam-Online

Some of the things in the story don't have the ring of truth.
Like killing mostly women and children. I don't think our troops are doing that.

[mike_c]

10. see this post for more evidence....

In LBN under headline "U.S. snipers shoot at anything that moves."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x493340

[JoFerret]

15. Jimmy Massey gets a lot of press it seems

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/special/war.nsf/0/C521416C97C3443586256CFA0029028F?OpenDocument

<<The men, who did not speak English, tried to communicate with their hands.

"What, you feel like break-dancing?" joked Massey. "Know any songs by Michael Jackson?" >>

[pretzel4gore]

12. tim mcveigh killed 2 iraqis..

they were too far away to see danger...mcveigh realized it was murder and it affected mcveigh....tim held fed gov reponsible for alot of things, and egged on by rush limbo cnn etc became violently devoted to amerikkka...
the bombing at Okla city followed from that...
while in jail, mcveigh realised his error...that the hated clinton had been contantly attacked (mcveigh met and became friend of ted kasinsky(sp) and kasinsky explained a few truths....) by the same gangsters who polluted the land...
so many of bush supporters are simple, trusting souls...

[Sibanetta]

53. I can't believe my eyes!

Are you actually defending McVeigh? Are you totally out of your gourd?
Timothy McVeigh was a terrorist, just like Bin Laden is a terrorist...in fact, McVeigh is worse because he acted against his own people.one hundred eighty three Americans died in the Murrah building, including nineteen babies...you're okay with that?If you are, you have serious issues, and should seek help,...pronto!

Mc Veigh was part of a White Supremacist militia..(think John Ashcroft,) and that bullshit is not what this country is about. He probably would have been comfy with Bush and his Neocon Cabal.

Timothy McVeigh was a traitor and a murderer.He got what he deserves..no, I take that back...he got off light..I only wish there had been one hundred and eighty three ways to execute him!

Sibanetta

[JoFerret]

16. So - Here is another source for the essential story

It's an old story making the rounds out there. but telling nevertheless:

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/The_high_price_020904.htm

The High Price of War Leaves One Man Broken

When Staff Sgt. Jimmy Massey joined the Marines, he thought he had found his niche.

Trained as a sharpshooter, Massey admits he became ³the ultimate war machine all blood and guts.²

One day, that came to an abrupt halt.....

....
In war, who dies?

Massey came to believe that most of the time when he shot to kill, he was killing civilians. >>

Fact is that in modern war the majority of those dead are civilians

[Judi Lynn]

31. Thank you, JoFerret, for providing that source

I definitely would hesititate to try to question the value of the organization which published the article. No one sensible would.

People are going to feel confused if they don't start trying to get informed on these things, and that doesn't mean Fox or NewsMax!

[NNN0LHI]

34. This originally ran in The (Waynesville, NC) Enterprise Mountaineer Feb. 9

[JoFerret]

20. If you change the words to civilians

then you have to start believing it. In modern war it is the civilians who die in the greatest numbers. Children, women, men, non combatants, civilians. It may be that they are not specifically targetting children and women BUT it is the women and children who die when 2,000 pound bombs are dropped (along with the men).

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

29. I have seen many such stories on Yahoo! and elsewhere

His story has every bit the ring of truth. The killings of civilians at military check points in cars is very well documented and has been widely reported. I have seen multiple reports of these types of incidents since the war began.

[Laughing Mirror]

39. actually the source is L'Humanite, French daily newspaper

Serious and highly credible, put out by the French Communist Party.

on edit: Link to original story from April 14. Jimmy Massey's from North Carolina.
http://www.humanite.fr/journal/2004-04-13/2004-04-13-391835%20class=

[Ms. Clio]

43. well if you don't believe it

Then by golly it isn't true.

[neverforget]

11. US Marine calling himself a "soldier"? BS alert! Call a Marine a

soldier and they're likely to smack you.

[BrotherBuzz]

13. Good catch, but...

further in the article it states Massey was in the army. Peculiar.

<snip>
Massey quit on April 18, 2003 – nine days after U.S.-led occupation forces rolled into Baghdad, after a 12-year service in the army.
<snip>

[Laughing Mirror]

42. again from the original article in French it says

Massey a fait ses adieux aux armes le 18 avril 2003 et a été officiellement rendu à la vie civile en novembre 2003 après douze années de loyaux services parmi les marines.

"Massey gave up his arms for good on April 18 2003 and officially became a civilian again in November 2003 after 12 months of loyal service in the marines."

The article in Islam Online is just a sloppy translation, and nothing more. The distinction between army, soldier, marines, etc., is not a distinction non-Americans know about, and therefore error of this sort arise in translation.

[burrowowl]

44. armes is French for

weapons. Arm like a limb is bras.

[BrotherBuzz]

45. Works for me, thanks.

[Qanisqineq]

35. I agree

my husband is a soldier and has worked with marines that switched to the Army. They still refused to call themselves soldiers. Very peculiar.

[Laughing Mirror]

41. the article in French calls him a marine and a soldat "soldier"

which is what the French call all armed forces, they don't make the distinction because they don't have marines. The article here is just reproducing that error in their translation. Nothing more to it than that.

[Trajan]

23. As much as I disdain the Likudnik, J Post, AEI/PNAC mindset ...

I cannot place a whole lot of 'faith' on the veracity of "Islam-Online" ... or any such focused sources ...

Just like MEMRI, these sites have their own axes to grind ...

There are just so many grains of salt left though ...

[JoFerret]

27. Try the same story in Veterans for Peace

.

[Sibanetta]

30. War is obscene

My Dad served in WWII...he didn't talk about it mush, but on one of the few occasions that he did, he siad that allof the obscene acts that we accused our enemy of, we had done too.That's the nature of war.That's probably why men who have actually gone to war, like General Clark, John Kerry and the traitor Powell are so adamantly against it...they know how obscene it really is.

I feel for the young Marine...he will carry the burden of what he did for the rest of his life...and I chastise anyone, safe and sound here, with the ashes of their draft card, bad-mouthing some kid who was probably scared shitless. In that sort of situation, with adrenaline pumping, I'm amazed at how few are being killed.

And remember, the Marine was obeying orders...better to direct your wrath and moral indignation to the chickenhawks who started this bullshit war...and telling people that God told them to do it!

Sibanetta

[Qanisqineq]

37. I wish more people understood that

And remember, the Marine was obeying orders...better to direct your wrath and moral indignation to the chickenhawks who started this bullshit war...and telling people that God told them to do it!

My husband served in Iraq. The soldiers & marines are tired, overworked, and frightened. It is better to be angry with the administration and the generals. Not the people being shot at.

[JoFerret]

46. Powell found Vietnam so obscene

he became an apologist for My Lai. No credibility left there. The Woodward book shreds it yet again. He allowed himself to be used by BushCo. And while he sulked at Foggy Bottom in the run-ip to the war and thought going to Iraq was lunacy, he still went on prime time to the UN and lied for them.

[alarcojon]

50. Great comments!

The right wants to conflate opposition to this war with disdain for our troops. The soldiers are just the pawns in this game, and not the appropriate target. Let's keep our eye on the ball.

I feel for this young man and the many others like him, present and future. He presents to us yet another cost of war, one which those "manly" Republicans don't seem to talk a whole lot about. Needless to say, I mourn the lives of the innocent Iraqi civilians he killed, for what is more valuable than human life?

I like what someone else also said: we have to encourage those soldiers who are willing to tell us their stories, and we have to listen with compassion and understanding. And then we have to do everything we can to get the arrogant, cynical morons who put them there out of power.

[JoFerret]

51. The Heritage

"A soldier (who had just returned from the Western Front) was so disordered while he was going down the stairs into the London tube station, he became suddenly aware of the crowds of people coming up, he looked haggardly about, and evidently mistaking the hollow space below for the trenches and the ascending crowd for Germans, fixed his bayonet and charged. But for the women constable on duty at the turn of the staircase, who was quick enough to divine his trouble and hang on to him with all her strength to prevent his forward advance, he would have wounded many and caused danger and panic. "


British pioneer policewoman Mary Allen, in her autobiography.

This has all happened before - the lies, the carnage, the impact, the legacy.

Just think of the damage to soldiers as well as the damage they are being ordered to do, and must do.

That quote is from an extraordinary site:

http://www.geocities.com/~worldwar1/default.html

The Heritage of the Great War

[JoFerret]

52. It's not their stories

they are usually as accurate as any other news source, and mostly drawn from them. It is their CHOICE of story and the prominence they give certain stories over others. In that respect their are like any media source that has a point of view. Say Faux for example.

[cambie]

38. Lives are cheap

in war and feelings count for nothing. As wars drag on and soldiers learn too late what it is about, measures are needed to keep them on track. German soldiers were motivated by a very high rate of arrests and executions. If the decision is made to win then the price must be paid. I would rather loose.

http://www.stsg.de/main/torgau/geschichte/wehrmacht/index_en.php

[PfcHammer]

40. "just get over it" - brit hume. blech

[Karenina]

47. Several of such harrowing accounts ...

Make NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT, my dearest ones. This account is EXACTLY why YOUR KIDS are being recycled into the depths of hell, not even allowed to return for the R&R they were promised. The *cabal has ABSOLUTELY NO QUALMS about engineering a scenario in which a majority of them will be "left for G_d to sort out" in order to protect themselves from exposure of the true nature of their atrocities.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1429682&mesg_id=1429682

[Earth_First]

49. I watched a CNN interview with a Marine yesterday afternoon...

during his interview he specifically, without being specifically questioned about, his pride in his company's "body count"

Makes me sick...

[sspiderjohn]

54. Wow . . . n/t

nt