Kerry opposes slavery reparations

[Freddie Stubbs]

John Kerry yesterday told students at Howard University that he doesn't support financial reparations for blacks, saying it would only divide the nation and "not heal the wounds."

"I personally do not believe that America is going to advance if we go backwards and look to reparations in the way that some people are defining them," Mr. Kerry told Aaron Nelson, 20, a junior political science major, who questioned the Democratic presidential hopeful on his stance.

The senator from Massachusetts said he understood the deep-rooted "scars" blacks still feel in America after slavery, Jim Crow legislation and segregation, but said reparations would divide the nation, not heal wounds.

"When you mention the word slave ... in 2004, it's almost a shocking, unbelievable notion that in this country we wrote slavery into our Constitution before we wrote it out," Mr. Kerry said.

more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040415-114946-9257r.htm

Because this was in the Washington times, I did an Internet search to determine if Kerry actually was against reperations. He is:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/16/politics/campaign/16KERR.html

[Muddleoftheroad]

1. He's right

"would divide the nation, not heal wounds"

[noiretextatique]

130. you can't "divide" a country that's already divided

it's doublespeak...not matter who says it.

[niceypoo]

159. Make the south pay them

The war never ended in their minds

[BlackVelvetElvis]

162. Not all southerners are members of this mindset

only the loud, obnoxious ones.

[Cicero]

181. How would you determine who pays?

Born in the South? Lived in the South for X years?

What about descendants of blacks who owned slaves, would they have to pay?

If your mother is black and your father is white, would you only get half a payment? And what if your mother moved here from South Africa only 30 years ago, would you still get a payment? Would she get a payment too?

Later,

[qanda]

2. Remind me again of the difference between Kerry and Bush*

eom

[skooooo]

11. oh please!

you've got to be kidding.

[qanda]

43. I only wish I were kidding

As a Black voter, I am very concerned about how the issues that concern Black voters are taken so lightly by both parties. I need to be reminded of the difference between Bush and Kerry. To outrightly dismiss reparations and not call for a further debate shows a lack of understanding of just how deeply some in the Black community feel about this issue. Kerry should be careful-- he's making ABB extremely hard.

[skooooo]

44. I sympathise with your concerns..

...but reparations are not going to happen no matter who is in office. If Kerry came out pro-reperations, he WOULD LOSE the election, and I'm sure you'd rather have him in than Bush. Kerry will do more to bring economic justice to the masses, which of course includes Black voters. I think Kerry has to take some stands that will make certain people unhappy just to get the current fucker-in-chief out of the White House. So, please, keep this in mind.....

[qanda]

47. But why not further the debate

The easy way out is to alienate the few to please the many, but I thought the man had more guts than that. He seems to take the popular road on just about every issue and that is not appealing to me.

[skooooo]

50. vote for Bush then??

I mean...yes. Right now I want Kerry to please the many. Sorry if that is shocking or "wrong" in your book.

[qanda]

103. If that's the only argument you can come up with

Then I fear for Kerry's chances in November.

[tinanator]

182. you and me both

It becomes increasingly more likely that this election is gonna be thrown rather than stolen.

[Just Me]

61. The fact that I personally feel torn by the issue is an indication that,..

,...the reparations approach is divisive.

I guess that, since I have seen the effects of a broader stroke of discrimination,...against women, African Americans, Native Americans, and so forth and on and on,...that, I tend to believe a broader plan towards economic and social justice is the best path to a better future. Moreover, I just do not see how all past injustices, and there are SO SO many,...can ALL be corrected/compensated/repaired without an economic/social justice objective which covers all people.

<on edit - I would like to point out that the greatest injustices over thousands of years have been against women: imagine attempting to repair all that!!!!>

[struggle4progress]

138. Those of us whose ancestors bled on the Union side ...

aren't necessarily in favor of government-paid reparations based on our tax dollars, but some of us might support private civil actions allowing recovery (from funds that can be traced) to lineages (that can be traced). In a larger sense, it will be to everyone's advantage to work towards a truly colorblind society ASAP.

[Trinity]

51. I want reparations too!!!!

The Norse took my Celtic ancestors into slavery hundreds of years ago....those damn Norseman *grrr*

I know this is gonna piss some people off, but Reparations is NOT the way to mend things.


and what of the native Americans who had their whole country stolen from them?





Peace? :hippie: :smoke: :freak:

[qanda]

55. I didn't say have reparations

I said have a debate about reparations and stop dismissing it out of hand with these stupid Horowitz talking points.

[Demonaut]

59. sure, have discussions about who should pay but not have them pay??

seriously, what would you discuss?

[Trinity]

66. OK I'm cool with a dialog about it ......

maybe I jumped to a conclusion... :shrug:




Peace? :hippie: :smoke: :freak:

[nolabels]

69. As a Pink skinned voter, I am also troubled

I not buying the one size fits all campaign. One of the basic tenet for utilizing the act of criticism is making things less prevalent or outdated by making people aware of the failures (anybody and most anybody knows that, but don't want to think about it).

I see an occasional black voice here and there, yet it is not a far stretch to figure out one of the biggest reason for silencing any black voices on mass media that go against the Pravda Party of corporate media is self exploration and reflection. Identifying the entirety of the audience that in reality everybody is a slave to the corporate task masters.

I would seem no surprise to me that back in the sixties and early seventies people in new age movements and ethnic minorities were natural allies, blending like butter on toast. Multi-national corporations have plans for mostly enslaving the entire population into some type of of economic slavery. What better example for us ignorant Pink people then to just look down the street at how this failed idea of un-reciprocated service serves no one. Any type of slavery is like a murder by a million cuts




One of the gains of the civil rights movement was to make displays of blatant racism unacceptable. Although still a problem, overt discrimination is generally deemed inappropriate in mainstream society. Unfortunately, this progress in race relations has corresponded with a move towards a “colorblind” ideology; the notion that race is no longer an issue in contemporary America. For example, the authors of the recent book, Whitewashing Race, draw attention to the work of conservative intellectuals, which calls for an elimination of the concepts of “race” and “racism” from mainstream discourse. If this colorblind philosophy takes hold in the US, it could be argued that the denial of racial discrimination will become further entrenched, and consequently, hidden or subtle racism will become unchallengeable.

A case could be made that the UK is an example of a country where a colorblind ideology is already deep-seated, and consequently, confronting hidden racism is near impossible. Thus, it is worth considering the Black British experience in terms of what a colorblind future could mean for the US.

In the UK, there is an ideology of assimilation, where there is the utmost pressure to blend into the white mainstream; there is an emphasis on not noticing difference, a “we’re all the same” ethos. It could also be argued that as far as the majority of British whites are concerned, racism is a thing that happened in “the olden days.” For the most part, the British media portray the UK as a place where blacks and whites live and work, side by side in harmony; in British soap operas, blacks integrate with whites in predominantly white settings with remarkably little reference to race.

It is certainly the case that by and large, Britain appears to be well integrated when compared with other countries in the world, and has anti-discrimination laws (unlike most of its European counterparts). However, statistics concerning the reality of the black experience in Britain tell a different story. With reference to just a few examples, in schools, black children are six times more likely to be “excluded” (that is expelled from schools) than their white counterparts; black people are eight times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than white people; and blacks make up 17% of the UK prison population despite constituting less than 2% of the general population. Indeed, in a 2002 Observer special report, Osmanand and Harris estimated that “if ‘black Britain’ were to be a separate country it would have the highest imprisonment rate in the world.” At the same time, most British policy reports and newspapers simply identify “institutional racism” as the culprit for these discrimination statistics, whilst overlooking the reality that behind the shadowy concept of institutional racism are individual acts of hidden racism.
(snip)
http://www.blackcommentator.com/86/86_guest_black_brit.html

[Just Me]

84. Oh, yes,...I have definitely witnessed the undertones of discrimination.

When I travelled to England via a college course, my roommate was African American and we became wonderful friends, along with a Japanese fellow (and I still look back on our unity with great affection). Although I couldn't completely identify with my roommate's "initial" hostility towards me (being a petite white female), I definitely understood where she was coming from after our time together in England. When I witnessed all those little jabs and inferior pokings aimed at her,...I took a stand for her against those spiteful people. I completely identified with her anger because, although I am white,...I am still a female who has had to tolerate such inferior pokings, too. I told her that, in a way, it made me feel ashamed of my own light skin color. But, we both agreed that neither color of skin or religious orientation or political affiliation or cultural background defines who we are, as individuals. None of that "stuff" defines whether or not we embrace one another as HUMAN BEINGS,...only we have the power to do that.

[RummyTheDummy]

148. There's been plenty of debate over the years

You clearly haven't been paying attention.

[wellst0nev0ter]

75. Then Go Ask The Norsemen For Reparations

Nobody is stopping you :eyes:

[Rez]

71. Democrats Marginalize African-American Voters

So far this is the most salient statement made on this thread -

"As a Black voter, I am very concerned about how the issues that concern Black voters are taken so lightly by both parties. I need to be reminded of the difference between Bush and Kerry. To outrightly dismiss reparations and not call for a further debate shows a lack of understanding of just how deeply some in the Black community feel about this issue. Kerry should be careful-- he's making ABB extremely hard."

Let me first say this...reperations is not universally called for by the African-American community...this is particularly true, being that we are not a homogenous people group...

As a whole we vote Democratic not because we believe they have our interest at the forefront of their agenda...but because they at least make an attempt to address some of the concerns germane to the African-American populace...

The problem has become the increased marginalization of blacks and issues relevent to blacks...such as Affirmative Action, Reperations, and Welfare issues, profiling...these have become token items to be addressed only when a candidate is addressing a "black" crowd...but not part of the true agenda of the democratic party...they take the black vote for granted...that is very obvious...

Onto reperations...

1. The intent of reperations is not to "heal wounds" of America...it is to heal the wounds of the African-American whose descendants were treated to years of the barbarity of slavery...and the corresponding after affects of the barbarity of slavery...it is not to heal the wounds of the white masses...so by what criteria are you who oppose reperations evaluating healing? And don't you consider it weird that you are defining "healing" for us, particularly without even a serious discussion on the issue?

2. Kerry says it will "divide the nation"...the nation is divided...it is stratisfied in many areas...conservative...liberal...abortion...pro-life...etc. Isn't it a bit disenguous to say "I oppose reperations" because of it's potential to divide the nation...then concurrently take a position on Iraq...or abortion...that is a very devisive position? According to this logic the north should have never been anti-slavery because of it's devisiveness along the Mason Dixie line...and to oppose reperations without even a legitimate discussion on the issue I also find odd...

But Kerry does flip flop...so if enough individuals support reperations I am sure he will change his tune...

Over all...to summarize it in a plainer way...damn dude...at least through a brother a bone by saying..."maybe we should discuss it" as opposed to saying..."I oppose it"...

[noiretextatique]

133. kerry is talking to another audience while talking at black students

and that audience is very similar to most of the good folks on DU.
they only give a damn about black people when they need our votes. they whine about why the NAACP didn't do more to challenge florida voter disenfranchisment, and turn right around and wonder why any black people would vote republican...or green. meanwhile, the democratic candidate who was robbed of those votes was too cowardly to mention a word about the florida vote scam.
this is "our" party :eyes:

[qanda]

134. The irony is that as soon as there is a Republican they can point to

As racist, they are first ones to do so. I almost choke when I see it-- "they are so forward thinking" :eyes:

[noiretextatique]

135. indeed...

i understand the game kerry's playing...this is his "sistah souljah" moment. the only difference with republicans...they don't even pretend to give a shit. they just go directly to bob jones' university :puke:

[okieinpain]

184. by the way what is our agenda. I haven't seen it posted anywhere

[termo]

78. start to sue the vatican

the issue is more how to reach the egality for all the citizens (for job, justice, etc...) in the futur.

from a justice point of view... you can hardly sue somebody for his ancestors mistakes. and if you want to sue nations, sue them all since slavery was widespread.

[HamdenRice]

89. The Wrong Reparations Debate

I am also very concerned about how the Democrats basically takes it for granted that Black voters have no alternative but to vote for the party. I am probably going to vote for the Green Party or Nader for that reason -- and more importantly, because if we are not Green today, we cannot be Black, White, Brown, Yellow or Red in the future, because we simply won't have a viable planet to exist upon. The environment existentially trumps all other issues, and we can't really begin to address the environment until we change our politics and what is politically achievable. I don't want Bush re-selected, but unlike most people on this board, I understand Nader's bigger point -- that we may have to sacrifice winning for a long time until the politics change.

Of course, I live in a state that is ultra safe for Kerry. I wonder whether I would vote Green this November if I lived in Florida. Unlike most people here, it would not be a foregone conclusion for me to vote Democratic even in a tight state.

As for the reparations debate, I think the biggest mistake the pro-reparations people make is to focus on slavery, which is very distant in time and it is difficult to justify the inheritance over many generations of claims for restitution.

A better approach would be to focus on reparations for what happened through the 1950s (not the 1850s), because there are many people alive who can prove their lives were devasted by segregation. I remember the segregation era well, and there is cause for reparations for that period.

[okieinpain]

161. as a black voter, let me say if you can't tell the difference between bush

and kerry. then what you need to do is sit out the next election or just go ahead and vote for bush. because if bush gets re-selected for another term, you won't need anybody to remind you of the difference.

geez!!!

[Tomee450]

167. You expect too much

African Americans have been loyal to the Democratic Party but now many are asking what do we get for our vote. There was not much outrage from our party over the disenfranchisement of the black voters of Florida. The silence from most democrats was deafening. Most of the protests came from members of the Congressional Black Caucus, not from the leadership of the Democratic party. I have a vivid recollection of the interaction between Al Gore and members of the caucus on the floor of the House. Not one white democrat would vote with the caucus. During the Lott fiasco, Tom Daschle initially sought to excuse Lott's remark and Pelosi was absolutely silent about the matter. It was only when conservatives started to criticize one of their own did the leadership of the Democratic party offer its criticism. Also, during his eight years of office Clinton did nothing about the death penalty or the war on drugs which disproportionately affects black people. There are serious problems in the black community which neither party is addressing. I don't think blacks will vote for Bush but their disgust with both parties may lead them to stay home.

[okieinpain]

171. hey stay home, no problem. stay home. don't vote. put your

fingers in your ears, close your eyes, fall on the ground and kick your kicks and scream as loud as you can "it's not fair, it's not fair". BUSH will be real proud of us black folks for not putting up with kerry's bullsh*t.

[Tomee450]

178. Oh please!!

Telling blacks we'd better vote for Bush while at the same time the party that we've supported all this time ignores us is just plain silly. People should not be expected to put into office people who then ignore them. If the Democratic party ignores the interest of black people, how is it any different from the Republican party. Instead of posting sarcastic comments in response to serious comments, perhaps you might want to contact members of the Democratic leadership to alert them to the great disenchantment with the party found among African American voters. The last thing I wish is to have a second Republican administration. Still, though I cannot vote for Bush, I have only lukewarm support for Kerry. I know a lot of blacks who feel exactly as I do.

[okieinpain]

183. I wasn't joking don't vote, stay home. tell the dems unless they

support slave reparations, and any other ideas that you can come up with. by the way I'm black and I think that the whole idea of slave reparations is silly.

I'm not a oprah black, or a clarence thomas black. I'm just a brother trying to get by. to me asking for slave reparations is like arguing with a cop about a traffic ticket, you're going to lose.

[Tomee450]

187. If Martin Luther King and others

had adopted your attitude, African Americans would still be riding at the back of the bus. Your's is the same kind of attitude exhibited by white southern ministers which forced MLK to respond in his letter from a jail cell in Birmingham. And by the way, saying one is black on an internet site does not mean it's true. While there may be some blacks who feel reparations will never become a reality, it is doubtful that they would say asking to be recompensed for injustice is being silly. If one does not ask, many time one never gets. The civil rights that blacks enjoy today were gained because people refused to believe, as you apparently do, that to demand such rights, demand justice, would be silly.

[private_ryan]

13. none

write Al Sharpton on the ticket when you vote. Happy?

[Vladimir]

16. Sharpton for VP!

you think I'm kidding. I'm not.

:P

V

[Muddleoftheroad]

19. LOL

Some of us would actually like to win.

[Vladimir]

20. LOL

I think for once we agree on something Muddle, although I suspect for entirely different reasons

V

[Renew Deal]

14. That's Bullshit and you know it.

But if you disagree, vote for Bush (or Nader) again.

[IndianaGreen]

22. Vote for a real liberal: Dennis Kucinich

I will be voting for Dennis in next month's primary, and it will be a proud vote!

Kerry now says he is not a liberal:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/16/politics/campaign/16KERR.html

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. DK already lost

[IndianaGreen]

28. Not in my book! Dennis is still running.

And Kerry may self-destruct, or an act of Gawd may take place, or some delegates may decide that Kerry is too much like Lieberman and change their votes.

It's the war, stupid!

[Muddleoftheroad]

30. Alas, the book is closed

Unless you are reading a fantasy novel.

[IndianaGreen]

36. The book is not closed in Indiana

Hoosiers don't take their order from the party hacks in the Beltway. We prefer to make up our own minds, and not behave like DNC or RNC robots.

Bush was in the same situation in 2000 as Kerry is today. In the 2000 GOP primary 40% of Republicans voted against Bush by casting their votes for McCain who had already dropped out.

[Muddleoftheroad]

38. Tell you what

Get back to me after your primary and let me know how well DK does.

[Renew Deal]

35. If Kerry self destructs or dies

the convention will pick someone else (Edwards probably, maybe Clark). They will never pick Kucinich.

[AP]

137. Dennis is second last in the delegate count, by the way.

Need to Nominate
2,162.0

Kerry, John F.
1,961.0

(available)
1,606.0

Edwards, John
519.0

Dean, Howard
121.5

Clark, Wesley K.
68.0

Kucinich, Dennis J.
26.5

Sharpton, Alfred C. "Al"
20.0

Uncommitted
0.0

Total
4,322.

[Renew Deal]

33. My primary passed and I already did

I voted for his delegates here. The primary is over as far as I'm concerned. Bush needs to go and Kerry is a great choice.

[IndianaGreen]

40. Indiana primary is on May 4th

Here are the candidates on the Democratic ballot:

Clark, Wesley K.
Dean, Howard
Edwards, John
Kerry, John F.
Kucinich, Dennis J.
LaRouche, Lyndon H., Jr.

[qanda]

45. Surely you jest

I have never voted for Nader and I don't plan on starting. I'm looking for a difference in the candidates and I'm having a difficult time finding any.

[Renew Deal]

48. You have a different time finding a difference between Kerry and Bush?

Pick your issue. We will find a difference quickly. You should get past the hyperbole and pay attention.

[eridani]

140. Start out in the present and work back

Two recent situations that require reparations of some sort are compensations paid to the POWs of the War on Some Drugs, and compensation for screwing black people out of the New Deal benefits that everyone else got.

White people have gotten a huge leg up from Social Security helping to support their parents, unemployment compensation, and large government investments promoting home ownership. The former two used to exclude household and farm help, precisely because of the color of most of the people doing those things in southern states. The last benefit they have been redlined out of.

Reparations for these things have two advantages. One, you can more easily get the information needed to pay the benefits fairly. Two, the application can be completely color-blind, though minorities will benefit disproportionally as intended. White POWs of the Drug War and those whose parents didn't get Social Security or unemployment benefits due to the kind of work they did would also be eligible.

[Freddie Stubbs]

31. Abortion

The President gets to appoint Supreme Court Justices.

[Zynx]

42. I will never base my vote on that issue.

I don't personally support it. I support Roe v. Wade, but I find abortion to be disgusting and if I had a wife and she got an abortion if her life wasn't in danger, I'd divorce her in a heartbeat.

I am voting for Kerry because I want a progressive economic agenda and I fear Supreme Court justices that will create a worse criminal justice system that Bush might appoint. I would never make abortion a tie-breaking vote. I simply don't like it.

[Freddie Stubbs]

52. But may do base their vote on that issue

And that is certainly an area where they differ.

[Redleg]

53. Are you kidding me?

EOM

[Freddie Stubbs]

57. Taxes

Kerry Offers Middle-Class Three Times As Much Tax Relief As George Bush
Tax Day Brings More Evidence That George Bush Doesn’t Understand Middle-Class Misery

April 15, 2004

For Immediate Release
Washington, DC


Play Now
As middle-class families across the country file their taxes today, the John Kerry for President Campaign released a comparison of the middle-class tax relief proposals offered by John Kerry and George Bush.

The side-by-side comparison shows that Kerry has proposed three times as much tax relief for middle-class families – a result that will come as no surprise to middle-class families that have been increasingly squeezed by a President who is out-of-touch with their needs.
“George Bush’s failed economic policies have put the middle-class in a world of hurt,” said Kerry spokesperson Chad Clanton. “The middle-class is struggling like never before, yet this President lavished tax cuts on wealthy Americans and stubbornly refuses to change his failed policies or propose any new solutions. John Kerry offers a new economic plan to change the direction of this country, which includes three times as much tax relief for middle-class families.”

According to a new Middle-Class Misery Index released this week, middle-class families are suffering more under George Bush than under any President on record. Yet with middle-class misery at an all-time high, President Bush has yet to unveil a plan to help. In fact, he has done just the opposite and pushed reckless proposals that have directly contributed to shocking increases in the cost of education and health care.

John Kerry recognizes the struggles of the middle-class. He offers real solutions to help families keep up with rising costs in education and health care, like $50 billion in tax cuts for college tuition and $177 billion in tax cuts to make health care affordable for all Americans.

Today’s side-by-side comparison of the Kerry and Bush middle-class tax relief proposals follows.

-30-

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0414c.html

[fujiyama]

67. If you read the entire article

you will see that Kerry addresses the concerns most important to African Americans, which, not too surprisingly, are those that are shared by others as well.

[Kadie]

145. Easy

bushie is president and he is a moron. He is taking this country down the toilet fast.

Kerry, on the other hand, is an opportunity for us to make amends with the rest of the world, get people back to work, and maybe work towards peace.

So maybe some of their ideas are similar, I don't care, I just want bushie out of there. Kerry is our only hope of that happening this next election.

So how are you going to vote? Since you don't seem to see a difference between the two, do you just plan on taking a quarter with you to the voting booth? With you just flip it once or go for 2 out of 3?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

3. How about "I'm sorry" - can the white establishment in the US just say it?

We harp about Shrub not apologizing. Why can't the nation own up to 400 years of evil?

[BiggJawn]

7. If I was "the Establishment" I would say I was sorry...

But I'm just the son of poor immigrants, so who cares what I think?

[DarkPhenyx]

10. I'd say it if...

...I had anything to be sorry about.

[cocoabeach]

12. Apologize to whom?

And would cash really make the African-American community forgive White America for slavery?

[skooooo]

17. who exactly should say what??

I would support reparations for crimes on behalf of law enforcement and the state done during Jim Crowe....but who would pay? Probably not the people who had anything to do with it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

21. They said that during the Civil War

600,000 dead, lots more casualties. A nation in ruins.

[sistersofmercy]

32. "'I'm sorry' -can the white establishment in the US just say it?"

How is the white establishment supposed to apologize for something that happened over a hundred years ago? BTW did you know the Cherokee nation owned slaves, prior to the trail of tears that is?

Having had ancestors who owned slaves bothers me but how can I apologize for something I would not have and could not have taken part in?

[Vladimir]

34. What they should really be apologising for

Is the ongoing politics of racism, sexism and discrimination. If they were even half-willing to tackle these issues I think no-one would be demanding reparations now.

V

[freetobegay]

39. I can't speak for all & I wasn't there but I'm Sorry.

Happy now?

[Tomee450]

124. You can

just save the sarcasm. I am beginning to believe Nader was right; there's not toO much difference between the parties especially where African Americans are concerned. I find many of these posts as bad as those to be found among the participants at Free Republic. There are many democrats who are also no friends of black people. I am one black person who is very tired of the democrats using blacks to gain power then becoming dismissive of our concerns. I am very disturbed by what Kerry has said about reparations, about his dismissive tone and will be calling attention to it to every black person I know. If Kerry keeps this up, he may find many blacks so disgusted that they will just stay home or go into the booth and not vote for president but for the other candidates. I was going to vote for Kerry but will have to seriously reconsider doing that. I would never consider voting for Bush but may not vote for Kerry either. Democrats constantly insult blacks because they feel we have no way to go. I am tired of that sentiment.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

158. I know how you feel

The Democrats treat us Liberals the exact same way, and I think there is a lot of overlap between the minorities rights and the Liberals. A move to the left helps us both.

There seem to be two prevailing philosophies. One is to abandon the Democrats and go Green. The expectation is that the Republicans will make things so miserable for everyone that there will be a huge backlash and a move towards the left. Of course, there will be a lot of damage to repair at that point.

The second idea is to continue to vote Democrat and try to slowly move the party towards the left from within. The advantage here is that things don't get as bad, but perhaps it takes longer to move as far towards the left.

Both are valid strategies. I personally prefer the work-from-within strategy.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

132. No - and I'm Sorry too

[struggle4progress]

150. On the "establishment" side, Clinton explicitly apologized ...

several years ago. I am sorry for that oppression but I personally think that the apology accomplishes very little. The basic point of any "race-based" analysis is to divide-and-conquer to the advantage of the ruling class. We need to cast off the blinders of "race," which is and always has been a complete fiction.

Useful steps today might include, for example, new work against modern day slavery in Florida or Nigeria, say.

[frankly_fedup2]

152. I thought Clinton Did apologize?

It was a terrible part of our history; however, I think Africa should pay some as well if the U.S. has to as well as France and the UK. They were all involved in the slave trade. Tribes would capture other tribes and sell them. The French and British helped with their transportation to America to sell for profit.

The thing about the reparations that gets me is, no one in my family history owned slaves or owned a plantation. They were poor like 90 percent of the population. So why would I have to pay because of the mistakes those rich, bastard Republicans made?

Also, if they agree to the reparations, give them what Lincoln promised, a mule and 10 acres (at the value 10 acres was back when Lincoln was Prez).

[BiggJawn]

4. Well, Hell, folks...Voe for Ralph or stay home, then...

Instead of voting for a guy Nader and the Rovian Press say is "just like Shrub", why not work to put the REAL thing back in office?

Name me ONE candidate ever who was "all things to all people"?

Can't do it, can you?

[skooooo]

9. yup...

You know, I got news for you. Kerry isn't worried about getting the vote of the Democratic base, and he shouldn't be, imo. Right or wrong, he's got to do what is going to get him in office.

I'm telling you, if we don't support Kerry and understand these things, Bush has an easier time of winning in November.

[cocoabeach]

5. He is right.

It is very divisive. The public is also against it too. And Kerrey knows it.

[IndianaGreen]

26. A majority of the public also opposes same-sex marriage

as they did desegregation back in the 1950s.

A weather vane makes a poor candidate!

[wellst0nev0ter]

27. Nope, Only When White People Are Against It

Is the issue "divisive".

[Demonaut]

62. lol, does white include hispanics?

NAACP should, if they havent already, research companies who shipped, sold and used slaves as the jews have done since the holocaust the approach those companies if they still exist.

[wellst0nev0ter]

74. Last Time I Checked, About Half Of The Hispanic Population

Identified themselves as white. And don't worry, there are those types of cases pending in court.

It still stands though, whenever whites disagree with something, it is divisive. Whenever whites agree with something, it is a consensus. If it were otherwise, there wouldn't be an Iraq war since most blacks were against it in the first place.

[DarkPhenyx]

6. Cool! Another reason to vote for him.

Way ta go John!

[IndianaGreen]

18. He also opposes gay marriage and transgender work rights in ENDA

Kerry is now saying that he is not a liberal at all, but a centrist, as the following NY Times link will show:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/16/politics/campaign/16KERR.html

[DarkPhenyx]

109. All of them are against it.

It isn't a politically tenable position to come out in favor of them.

[IndianaGreen]

114. Integration was not a "politically tenable position" for Democrats....

Integration was not a "politically tenable position" for Democrats prior to 1965, but it was the correct position.

You are asking us to remain silent about the 21st century equivalent of racial laws.

[DarkPhenyx]

115. Nope. Didn't say stay quiet.

And you can't point out where I did.

[Vladimir]

8. Well of course he does

Pragmatically it would be suicide to support them, and in practice the US couldn't afford any fair settlement financially anyway.

I support reparations intellectually but they seem to me a practical non-starter. A correct position on things like affirmative action etc. is a lot more important IMO.

V

[vi5]

15. A candidate for president supporting reparations

...would be flat out political suicide. It would make taking an anti-israel stance look like a safe position.

Even the most liberal of whites I know and most african americans I know personally either aren't in favor of reparations or realize how a politician for nationwide office would not be able to support the issue.

This is irrellevant to my personal opinion on the issue, just an aknowledgement of the realities of the political landscape.

[Zynx]

23. Give me one good reason why I should pay. John is right.

My relatives didn't have a damn thing to do with slavery and I'm not going to feel sorry for something I am not responsible for.

[Tomee450]

168. African Americans

had nothing to do with the internment of the Japanese yet their taxes and yours went to pay reparations to that community. Why the outrage when its blacks who may the recipients of government funds? Could it be because of their race?

[sleepystudent]

185. thank you...

It just comes down to the fact that some people don't want to see black people get *anything*. Period.

[billybob537]

25. Is anyone alive

today that caused slavery? No! Therefore No culpability can be proved. You can't hold a country liable for practices that were acceptable at an earlier date. The country has changed the law and thats all they can do. If we start reimbursing people for everything they don,t like we will go broke overnight. I agree that slavery is wrong, evil, and indefensible but I draw the line at reimbursable.

[Freddie Stubbs]

29. And there are no former slaves still around either

Therefore there is no one to compensate.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

37. I like the consensus here. John is right.

let's move on to other issues relavant to 2004.

[nightperson]

64. John is also polite.

This isn't even an issue to most of us, regardless of race. It is ammo for Limbaugh et al, however. Flame away, folks, but I won't even respond. Neither will America. Please move the ^*%^&#@ on.

[sleepystudent]

186. issues of race are always relevant...

No matter what the year. This is the U.S.A. after all. It's great how if the subject makes someone uncomfortable(which usually happens with any issue involving blacks) people begin to say "this issue isn't relevant, you're trying to distract us, etc..."

[orwell]

41. Reparation

The greatest "reparation" our society could pay would be to fully fund inner city and poor rural schools to the same levels as the well-to-do districts. This would be an investment in the future of all of the citizens denied equal opportunity from the day they are born in a system that structurally rewards privilege and punishes poverty.

The new slavery is ignorance.

O

[noonwitch]

46. Agreed-

Also, some further investment in businesses, such as the empowerment zone moneys that Clinton targeted toward communities with high numbers of minorities.
If black people were truly given an equal opportunity from birth to death in this country, I don't think we'd be hearing a call for reparations. There is no realistic way to pay back every descendant of slavery for their ancestors' suffering.

[fujiyama]

60. Well said

That's pretty much what I was thinking.

Jobs, education, health care -- This is what needs to be done for inner cities. This is an agenda for all Americans.

[Champ]

87. Jobs, Education, health care

should be done everywhere, rural america, suburban america, urban america, whereever. When it comes to important stuff like this, it can never be good enough. You have to keep rising the bar not lowering it, we should expect the best.

[David__77]

49. A better reparations idea.

I think that perhaps reparations should be made to those living US citizens who were denied the right to vote in the south as recently as the 1960's. This is quite concrete and there is a financial cost that was borne by those who were disenfranchised. Maybe white America can understand this a little better.

[Zynx]

54. However, not all whites should have to pay that.

Hell, not even all southern whites. If you use federal tax dollars for that, you are using everyone's money, so be careful with this.

[David__77]

65. Why not, we paid detained Japanese, didn't we?

I don't understand the logic. Governments pay reparations all the time. We paid reparations to World War II Japanese detainees, right? My parents didn't detain anyone, so according to your logic, this was wrong also, right?

[frankly_fedup2]

155. Didn't "Regan" do that? (nt)

nt

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

160. A better way to spend that reparation money

would be to help fight poverty, improve education, decrease racism. That would benefit society as a whole. These are the sorts of things that Kerry is in favor of, not giving money to people as an apology for things long in the past.

[Tomee450]

169. What insensitivity!!

"not giving money to people as an apology for things long in the past.
Unfortunately many people share your attitude which imo, shows a lack of sensitivity to the feeling of millions of black people. We have oral histories of the suffering of our people who were slaves and their suffering may be long past to you but not to millions of African American. Even today, I am always pained when I read of young children being sold away from their parents, never to be seen by them again. There are millions of blacks who lived under awful Jim Crow laws and that experience is not "long past" to them or their progeny. African Americans are asked to forget the past while others are doing Civil War enactments, showing the confederate flags, joining the Daughters of the American Revolution, Daughters of the Confederates, Remembering the Alamo etc. Blacks are asked to forget their past while others are allowed to remember their history. There is something wrong with that picture and we all know what it is.

[frankly_fedup2]

174. But that is part of "AMERICA'S" history as well . . .

so should we ban the confederate flag, reenactments of civil war battles, etc. That is this country's history and should be remembered in all it's atrocities so we never forget it.

Like I stated before though, If the U.S. pays reparations, then Africa would have to pay, France would have to pay, Britain would have to pay; as they were all involved in the slave trade. Even the Muslims had Africans for slaves, but you never hear about that, huh? You cannot blame just the Americans for slavery. Slavery was well on its way back in Moses days as well as oppression to women and children of every color. If the Government started paying reparations, they would have to pay each and every one of us . . . now, that will never happen because, otherwise, it would not be fair at all.

[Tomee450]

180. I disagree with all you said.

My point was that you wish blacks to forget their sad history while others celebrate theirs, no matter how infamous. No one is blaming just the United States for slavery but African American ancestors were brought to America and it was Americans who enslaved them and treated them horribly. I have absolutely no opposition to seeking reparations from every country involved in the slave trade. However it is this country that enslaved millions and denied equal opportunity to their descendants. As I said in an earlier post, this oppression was sanctioned by the state and it is the state that should pay.

[Redleg]

56. Oh boy- that stirred up some shit in here!

I don't believe in reparations per se because the people who would be made to pay them took no part in the institution of slavery. I do understand that slavery and other discriminatory practices have disadvantaged minorities in this country- I just don't see reparations as a fair or practical way to help people.

I do believe we should step-up our efforts to improve the living conditions and welfare of poor people of every race and ethnicity in this country. Of course we won't be able to do that with Bush in office.

[FlaGranny]

58. I have a question re reparations?

How would this money be collected and from whom? Would it be collected from all white American citizens only. Would Asian Americans have to pay? Will we need to declare our race on our income tax forms in order to be taxed for it? What if you are a white American whose family immigrated to the US 75 years ago. Do you have to pay then? If this money is collected from all taxpayers regardless of race or length of being citizens, doesn't that make black Americans pay for a good chunk of their own reparations?

Like many other white Americans, most of my family and my husband's family immigrated 100 years ago or less. The branch of my family that has been here since the Revolution was very poor and certainly didn't keep slaves.

How in the world would this be implemented?

Edit: I agree, with some others that the best reparation would be true equality in education and opportunity right now.

Second Edit: I can see that if this were to be implemented it would be extremely difficult to make it fair, in any possible way.

[fujiyama]

63. Those are good questions

you ask. My parents came to this country about two two years ago from a nation that was colonized by the British. How are they responsible for the poor treatment of African Americans throughout the history of this nation?

I myself favor putting money where it matters. African Americans have the same concerns as everyone else -- they want affordable health care, a decent education for their children in a safe learning environment, and a job to support their children.

That's what it comes down to.

[Terran]

72. It doesn't have to be money

I have come to the same conclusion as people who oppose reparations--merely paying every descendent of slaves a cash sum is a worthless solution, unworkable and divisive. I've been arguing this idea for years at DU, so I will just say briefly that there there are *plenty* of other ways that African-Americans might receive some recompense that would actually do some good:

1) An apology from the President of the United States for the violence and oppression inflicted upon African-Americans in this country, from slavery onward. That'll probably need to entail an apology to Native Americans as well, but that's another issue.

2) Exempt African-Americans under a certain income level (say, under $50,000 household) from federal income tax for ten years.

3) Exempt every African-American-owned business from federal income tax for the next ten years.

4) Free college/vo-tech/whatever tuition for every African-American who wants it for the next 20 years.

And of course, as has been stated, the the govt. needs to engage in a Marshall Plan for public schools in inner cities and poor rural areas.

One thing to keep in mind about slavery: every person in the US, whether or not their ancestors owned slaves, has benefited from, and continues to benefit from the free labor provided by those slaves. Therefore, we are all responsible for paying this bill, equally. Black, white, Asian, Latino, it does not matter. This is a national issue, and everyone should pay their share (which by the way would be miniscule on a per capita basis).

Dirk

[Undemcided]

165. Everyone should pay their share?

Does this include black people?

[Chico Man]

68. Let them build casinos (nt)

[JCMach1]

70. What about reparations for Holocaust survivors...?

Wouldn't that be 'looking back'

Time to move on, I guess... :(

[Rez]

73. Marginalized...

So far this is the most salient statement made on this thread -

"As a Black voter, I am very concerned about how the issues that concern Black voters are taken so lightly by both parties. I need to be reminded of the difference between Bush and Kerry. To outrightly dismiss reparations and not call for a further debate shows a lack of understanding of just how deeply some in the Black community feel about this issue. Kerry should be careful-- he's making ABB extremely hard."

Let me first say this...reperations is not universally called for by the African-American community...this is particularly true, being that we are not a homogenous people group...

As a whole we vote Democratic not because we believe they have our interest at the forefront of their agenda...but because they at least make an attempt to address some of the concerns germane to the African-American populace...

The problem has become the increased marginalization of blacks and issues relevent to blacks...such as Affirmative Action, Reperations, and Welfare issues, profiling...these have become token items to be addressed only when a candidate is addressing a "black" crowd...but not part of the true agenda of the democratic party...they take the black vote for granted...that is very obvious...

Onto reperations...

1. The intent of reperations is not to "heal wounds" of America...it is to heal the wounds of the African-American whose descendants were treated to years of the barbarity of slavery...and the corresponding after affects of the barbarity of slavery...it is not to heal the wounds of the white masses...so by what criteria are you who oppose reperations evaluating healing? And don't you consider it weird that you are defining "healing" for us, particularly without even a serious discussion on the issue?

2. Kerry says it will "divide the nation"...the nation is divided...it is stratisfied in many areas...conservative...liberal...abortion...pro-life...etc. Isn't it a bit disenguous to say "I oppose reperations" because of it's potential to divide the nation...then concurrently take a position on Iraq...or abortion...that is a very devisive position? According to this logic the north should have never been anti-slavery because of it's devisiveness along the Mason Dixie line...and to oppose reperations without even a legitimate discussion on the issue I also find odd...

But Kerry does flip flop...so if enough individuals support reperations I am sure he will change his tune...

Over all...to summarize it in a plainer way...damn dude...at least through a brother a bone by saying..."maybe we should discuss it" as opposed to saying..."I oppose it"...

[mobuto]

85. Very different

There are Holocaust survivors. There are not any slavery survivors, at least not survivors of American slavery.

I'm not saying that the United States isn't morally guilty for 87 years of slavery, but there doesn't exist the specific and remediable injury that you'd find with regards to Holocaust survivors.

[wellst0nev0ter]

76. Why Are So Many People

Just so fundamentally dishonest on this issue?

============================================
I recently wrote a piece saying America should apologize for slavery. This resulted in an expected deluge of e-mails castigating me for dredging up events that most white Americans today deny any tie to.

<snip>

So imagine my feigned surprise that even as many white readers continue to vent their anger at me, Congress is openly entertaining reparations for white people in the plains, the prairies, the swamps, and the mountains. Senator Byron Dorgan of North Dakota and 16 other Democratic and Republican senators representing South Dakota, Montana, Minnesota, Illinois, Nebraska, Arkansas, Kansas, Iowa, Georgia, Louisiana, and West Virginia have introduced the New Homestead Act.

<snip>

In the heartland, 70 percent of rural counties have lost an average of 30 percent of their population in the last 20 years. The states that have lost the most people since 1980 have been the Dakotas, Kansas, Nebraska, Montana, and Iowa. ''The heartland of our country is being relentlessly depopulated, and we need to do something about it,'' Dorgan has said.

When factories and mills left the black community in the Northern Rust Belt or the Southern mills, America said tough luck, that's how the global economy crumbles. No one did anything about the redlining that froze home values in black communities while prices soared in the suburbs. Decimated black farmers say it is still hard to get loans from the US Department of Agriculture despite a 1999 settlement (there were black farmers who took advantage of the Homestead Act, but their communities withered away a long time ago). For years the Urban League called for a Marshall Plan to rescue inner cities.
================================

And rememeber, when surviving blacks wanted reparations for the Tulsa massacre, they were similarly denied, so I just don't buy the conventional reasoning behind the general opposition towards reparations.

[Zynx]

86. I don't support bailing out rural communities either.

That is a weak argument. I repeat, give me one good reason why I should pay slavery reperations.

[Champ]

88. Your tax dollars are being used to blow up shit in Iraq

Here is what I think. I think all the money being used to fight "the war on terrorism" would be much better spent improving health care, education, jobs, etc in this country. I don't consider that a reperation I consider that a necessary act to improve this country as a whole. Not every child here is fortunate to be born under a middle class or upper family. What do we do with those who aren't? They won't have adequate health insurance, they won't have the newest materials or latest books or whatever is necessary to improve that child's ability to learn. Also you must have lots of jobs but good ones, when your struggling to survive some use other means to financially to take care of himself/herself or whatever family they have whether that is selling drugs, stealing, prostitution, etc or you just live homeless. You may disagree and I respect that, I just think it is vitally important that we improve living conditions for the kids and everybody, if you do that you will only get positive results. Also Boys and Girls Clubs are a great place for kids to go when they are not in school. A place like that really does keep kids out of trouble because it is something to do.

[mobuto]

90. Why don't you?

I don't support slavery reparations either, but I do support Affirmative Action efforts to help remedy 400 years of discrimination.

And why don't you support bailing out rural communities? You think its healthy for a society to be built around islands of prosperity in a great sea of despair?

[Zynx]

91. I hate to sound like a right-winger, but it's a lost cause.

I support the idea of helping people who are poverty stricken, but I don't think we should be in the business of bailing out every little rural community that can't sustain itself. It's simply not economically wise.

[mobuto]

93. I don't either

I don't think we should "bail out" rural communities, but I think we can do a tremendous amount to help them become prosperous and self-sustaining. Italy has managed to do this brilliantly. By combining targeted tax breaks, strict zoning laws and excellent infrastructure, Italy has been able to persuade companies to build factories and offices in small towns and cities all over the country. The result is that young people don't have to leave the place that they grew up in to get a job, and small communities are thriving all over the place. Nobody's on the Italian government's dole, instead everybody prospers. The United States is obviously less able to do this, because of our already decentralized federalist system, but the Feds can still do a lot by establishing tax credits, building a national rail network, or any of a million other intelligent measuers. Its a bad thing if your choice is between living in a megalopolis or destitution.

[Zynx]

95. If we can do it relatively cheaply, fine.

[mobuto]

98. It would save us money

Because it would relieve the cost of housing in and around our largest cities and also the taxing of their infrastructure. Many cities are currently overwhelmed by the rapid growth of their metro areas.

Just ask Atlanta, which is wrestling with constructing a whole new multi-billion dollar sewer system; the present one has been simply overwhelmed by the city's exponential growth in recent years - at the expense of small cities throughout the South.

[ZR2]

101. I thought the US had a national rail network.

The main problem is private transportation is so cheap in this country, there are no incentives for people to use it.

[Zynx]

116. Not a real national rail network.

Not even close.

[mobuto]

118. Wrong

Amtrak is a joke that receives less federal funding than some highway bridges. Except between Boston and Washington, it doesn't own its own tracks, which means it has to rent them from freight lines - so the passenger trains have to go as slowly as the freight trains on them. As a result, while in Europe you often see intercity rail traveling at speeds up upwards of 200mph, in this country the norm is more like 60mph, and often less than 40mph - speeds Europe surpassed in the 19th century. Rail can out-compete air travel on many routes if its done right. But the way its done in this country today, it doesn't make sense at all. If you can take a train at 200mph, you're very likely to take the train instead of fly (unless you're taking an exceptionally long trip). But at 40mph? You must be joking.

Private transportaion isn't cheap at all either, when you factor in the enormous subsidies we offer motor and air transport. If we offered anything like the same subsidies to rail, there would be plenty of incentives for people to use it.

[FlaGranny]

96. I totally agree there should have been

reparation for surviving Tulsa massacre victims. Also, there was a black town in Florida in the early 20th century that was burned to the ground and residents massacred for which I agree there should have been reparations.

I'm not AGAINST reparations in concept. My questions relate to the feasibility of assessing for them. For instance, a black American family which immigrated to the US 5 years ago, and a white family which immigrated to the US, also 5 years ago - should they participate? How about 25 years ago. Does one draw a line, and, if so, where should that line be drawn? When we are talking about more than 50 years, or so, we are no longer dealing with pure immigrants, we are dealing with descendants of recent immigrants and of previous slaves in an increasingly confusing mixture.

The simplest solution to the problem (taxing everyone) actually is THE most divisive solution. The argument goes like this: "If my third cousin broke into your house and stole your TV, it's not my responsibility to buy you a new one." I know that's a simple argument, but that's the kind that is made and causes the most division.

I still see the solution as implementing real and total equality. It would be difficult, but the only real solution.

Has anyone ever done a study to decide how much each person should receive? $1,000, $50,000, $1 million? $1,000 would be an insult. $50,000 would only be a temporary salve. $1 million would be considered outrageous.

I'm trying a little devil's advocacy here. :-)

[Rez]

100. Decent Post

But let me point out a few things I mentioned on another post...

You said, "I'm not AGAINST reparations in concept."

If you are not philosophically opposed to reparations as it relates to modern African Americans...then the question becomes how to you move this dialog to a public debate and discourse...if you are for reparations that means you agree to certain assumptions...primarily these:

1. America as a Nation State is culpable for crimes comitted during slavery. This is the reason not even Bill Clinton would apologize...because apology implies cupability...think about that...

2. That because the Nation State is culpable...that a redress against the wrongs should occur...

3. That the political climate as it was pre-civil rights would not have allowed for reparations to freed slaves...or the immediate descendants of the slaves...therefore redress in a more "civilly right" climate should provide redress to the descendants of slaves...

You also stated, "My questions relate to the feasibility of assessing for them. For instance, a black American family which immigrated to the US 5 years ago, and a white family which immigrated to the US, also 5 years ago - should they participate? How about 25 years ago. Does one draw a line, and, if so, where should that line be drawn? When we are talking about more than 50 years, or so, we are no longer dealing with pure immigrants, we are dealing with descendants of recent immigrants and of previous slaves in an increasingly confusing mixture"

This is irrelevant to the philosophy of reparations to slave descendents being the correct and appropriate thing to do, which you conceded...

As I said before...you can not argue against the validity of a philosophical concept (Reparations) by arguing against the pracitcal problems of implementing the philosophical concept in the real world...

[wellst0nev0ter]

110. Immigrants

Sorry, but if immigrants who come to this country benefit from the prosperity that was created in part through slavery, then they should also be party to the costs.

[wellst0nev0ter]

108. No Individual Handouts

Because this would cheapen the issue if it's only about money. What we need is a targeted, concentrated effort to reverse the effects that slavery and other forms of subjugation has had on blacks. If Congress is willing to consider some sort of Marshall Plan for rural, mostly white areas, why should black communities be out of bounds?

Not to say your arguments don't have merit, far from it. I'm just saying the reparations issue would be (slightly) more palatable to more Americans if it is framed as a collective cause than a mass handout.

[Rez]

120. ...

Nice Signature...what is that guys name on the Simpsons?

Anyway...

I agree...it is the perception that is a problem...and a misguided understanding of social versus individual enhancement...

For example...although many individuals complain (as I do) about the high taxation rate...they fundamentally recognize the necessity of taxes to improve the infastructure of a city...IE fix roads and pot holes...pay for the police etc.

They don't see taxation as - They are taking money from me...and giving it to someone else...

The see taxation as - They are taking money from me...and maintaining or improving the society...

Right...

But the opponents of reperations paint it as a direct transaction...that is why you hear so many times...why should "I" give "you" money...as if they would be writing a check for $500 dollars and putting it in my pocket...and this Americans as a rule HATE...they hate being forced into direct transactional forced giving...but they don't mind taxation to benefit society (in general)...so what you have is a polarized perspective on reparations...

On oneside you have the individuals who believe it is a transactional process and that they are paying for something that they didn't do...

On the otherside you have individuals who approach it from a societal perspective and say hey, there is culpability, the affects are still occurring, redress is what must be done to improve American society in general the African America sub society in particular...

I once made a solid argument for the economic advantage of reparations...if I can find it I will repost...

BUT

That being said...many of the pro-reparations ideology are moving more towards a non-taxation platform...instead of a direct cash settlement...they would prefer to have this current generation have to pay no income taxes for life...

Do you feel that would soften perception?

[Tinoire]

175. Bless you, you intellectually consistent and honest person.

That was great.

The Tulsa massacre...

But they were Black... sub-human. Doesn't count </sarcasm>

Thanks

[Stuckinthebush]

77. I'm not sure he's not right on this

It would divide the nation.

[bif]

79. So do I. One more reason to vote for him

n/t

[funkybutt]

80. who does?

I can't imagine anyone of sound mind thinking that reparations are a good idea! If any candidate i supported was in favor of reparations, i would immediately loose respect for him. If you don't see that a politician advocating reparations = a candidate attempting to buy black votes. It's an offensive idea.

[Nile]

81. Slavery was here before the United States even existed.

I believe that it was the Danish that had the first slaves about 100 years before the U.S. even existed.

[mobuto]

83. So?

Anti-Semitism existed thousands of years before Adolf Hitler was even a gleam in his mother's eye. And yet nobody is trying to forgive the Holocaust just because St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople, issued eight homilies against the Jews in the year 398 AD.

I believe slavery reparations are a bad public policy idea, but that doesn't mean the United States isn't morally culpable for what is tantamount to a crime against humanity.

[Nile]

92. So why totally blame the U.S. when...

it was people of Europe that originally brought the slaves to America 100 years before the revolution.

[mobuto]

94. Who's totally blaming the US?

I'm not.

[tafui]

106. "So why totally blame the U.S. when...

it was people of Europe that originally brought the slaves to America 100 years before the revolution."
Because the United States didn't outlaw the slave trade until 1808...and kept slavery legal until the passage of the 13th amendment in 1865...and allowed southern states to enact grandfather clauses that did everything to prevent newly freed slaves from voting...as well as allowed Jim Crow to exist which perpetuated social and economic improprieties based on race...and didn't pass operable civil and voting rights legislation until the 1960's...and need I go on?

[DarkPhenyx]

111. Africa is also culpable.

Most of the slaves which weren't born here were sold into slavery by their own people or other tribes.

[mobuto]

119. So what?

I'm not excusing other countries or peoples for the crimes committed in their names; the fact that Turkey commited genocide first, for example, doesn't excuse Germany or Rwanda from doing the same.

The United States is responsible for a series of heinous crimes over 87 years, which victimized many millions of people. That's a fact, and an ugly one, but it isn't mitigated by the knowledge that other peoples committed similar atrocities. Again, I don't support reparations, but I do think the United States is guilty for what it did.

[DarkPhenyx]

122. Guilty of what?

You must first have a law against something before you can have guilt.

[mobuto]

123. Not at all

There are fundamental laws of human behavior that trump national laws.

The Nazis hanged at Nuremberg for their crimes didn't violate German law either.

Moreover, that concept of universal law is written into the very Declaration of Independence on which this country was founded. It is criminal for any government to deny one of its subjects life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness unless that person has been convicted of a crime.

[DarkPhenyx]

125. And at the time America began using slave labor...

...it was a generally accept practice. Even when it was finally outlawed it was a practice still being used in most of the world.

[mobuto]

127. Generally accepted practice?

By whom? I think you have your history wrong. At the time of the revolution, slavery was a huge issue. The great English writer and lexicographer, Samuel Johnson, for example, wrote a wildly influential missive in 1775 that denounced the advocates of American revolution for their hypocrisy. "How is it," he wrote, "that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of Negroes?" The 1770s marked a period of vociferous debate over slavery, and that only intensified in the years before the Napoleonic Wars.

[DarkPhenyx]

128. Yes, yes, yes...

it was an issue for some, however it wasn't for all, and was practiced in one for or another throughout the world. Not everywhere, and not in the same form everywhere, however it was practiced. It was also not illegal.

[mobuto]

166. An issue for some?

No it was an issue for everybody. Not everyone was opposed to it, but not everybody's opposed to it today either (just ask the Mauritanians). Nevertheless it was one of the leading issues of the day, and was hotly debated in every city in the United States.

To say that it was generally accepted is simply not correct. It was accepted by many and opposed by many. It was debated repeatedly and at length by successive Continental Congresses, and it was only after a prolonged fight that slavery supporters were able to remove a section from the Declaration of Independence that condemned the practice.

[dolstein]

It's good to see that Kerry isn't a total idiot

NT

[Tinoire]

176. Debatable

IWR vote - A-ok.
Welfare Reform - A-ok.
NAFTA - A-ok.
Occupation of Palestine - A-ok.
Reparations for the Holocaust, even to non-survivors - A-ok.
Reaparations for the most brural Holocaust in documented modern history - :thumbsdown:


By the way, is the war in Iraq still going ok for you Dolstein? Think they'll find those WMDs anytime soon?

[shanti]

82. so who in a position of power doesn't?

(besides al sharpton)

[Rez]

97. I Find It Interesting

For those who come to a pre-dominantly liberal board...I find the arrogance strange...


1. Nobody addressed my statement concerning divisiveness in politics...and divisiveness is not a counter-argument opposing reperations...it is is simply an unproven statement characterizing the potential effects of reperations...

2. To counter the argument of those who say, "Why Should I Pay"...when the government is held culpable for an action...it is the government that "pays"...this is obviously reflected to ALL citizenry through taxation in a democratic society...this means that EVERYONE who pays taxes would in part be "reperating"...

Example...here in Nebraska we had an incident at a nuclear facility...those injured sued the state...the state had to pay a few million bucks...therefore all the citizens in the state through taxation had to pay incremental portions of the settlement...

3. Agree or Disagree with reperations...there is a significant and growing population that has logical and articulate arguments for the idea...there is a growing number of people who aren't articulate but agree with the principle...this is not a new argument...and in ways it is an extension of the larger debate on issues of race, particularly the black and white dynamics of this nation...and to simply characterize one who supports it as: "idiot" "hand out seeker" "racial polarizer" particularly for those who hold a liberal ideology...is hypocrisy...there is no harm in simply saying...let us have a formal dialog on this issue...

4. Many who argue against reparations put the cart before the horse...in other words...they attempt to attack the argumentations for reparations in the fallacious way of criticizing or questioning the execution of reparations if it was to ever occur...you have heard the arguments..."who gets it" "how much"...etc. You can not counter a philosophical argument by arguing against methodology...


Finally...we want strong leaders but we want them to be antiseptic...people you can't have it both ways...

[qanda]

99. It is strange

But they don't take the Black vote for granted :eyes:

[FlaGranny]

107. Practicalities are an important part of the discussion.

I'm not against the idea of reparations, not at all. But it has to be reasonably fair to everyone. I have questions. Are you suggesting that every Black American citizen get a share and that everyone pay for it, including Black Americans? It is a very practical consideration to want to know how much each one gets and, most importantly, what the long-term effect will be. If each got $50,000 what good will follow? Will receiving that compensation erase discrimination and improve things for the next generation?

My idea of reparations is to improve communities by giving them excellent educational institutions, access to health care, and equal opportunities. I would also use some of the money in a campaign to wipe out discrimination by making it very socially unacceptable.

I just feel it is better to put resources into future prosperity and equality for everyone, than to provide a one-time monetary awards to individuals, which will soon be gone and forgotten, and which will provide no long-term benefit.

[qanda]

121. I know you're addressing this to someone else

But I would like to respond also. I don't think there are many who are calling for reparations that include a cash payout. Even I don't feel it would be productive or wise. There are so many options that would help to bridge the gap that has been created by the unfair policies and practices perpetrated on black citizens throughout many years in this country

Making lump sum payments would not be feasible, but making it easier for blacks to buy homes, get quality educations and live the "American Dream" are not very lofty goals. I believe there are some policies that could help right away, like putting an end to predatory lending (which disproportionately affects black citizens living in poor neighborhoods) and perhaps providing a stipend for first generation college attenders and home owners. Why not make investments into black business owners and black neighborhoods? The entire country would benefit from a better black community.

Anyway, that's my two cents worth. I don't have all the answers, but that's why it is important to continue a debate. Because when the debate is shut down then it means that the answer has been found and it's very obvious to me that the quick answer of "no to reparations" is not an acceptable end to this debate.

[FlaGranny]

126. Then we agree.

I haven't really followed this issue closely, so I wasn't certain what asked for, but I know, in my heart, that cash payouts to individuals are not the answer.

[goclark]

149. A message to DU

I am disappointed in DU.
For a liberal Board, the lack of the ability to see it through the eyes of an African American is odd. If you do not embrace the concept of Reparations,please find it in your liberal hearts to carefully read and respond to an African American poster that asks for positive feed back.

The pain is real for us! It is still real after all these years.

Perhaps you have not realized how your negative words sting. I have faith that you will review your individual post and pretend for just a moment that for all your life you heard oral histories in your family about the pains of slavery.

I would invite you to visit afrigeneas.com to see how African Americans are still searching for their ancestors. The pain is still real. It still hurts as if it was yesterday.
Sadly some of your posts have added to my pain.

[qanda]

151. It's added to my pain too

And also to my ignore list.

All I have to say is that the struggle continues. We can say we've come a long way all we want, but after reading this thread I realize that we have a loooonnngggg way to go.

[Tomee450]

172. Amen

This thread is very disheartening. It should be a real eye opener for those who think attitudes towards blacks have improved substantially. Our concerns, our feelings, just are not important even to those who consider themselves progressives. The attitude of many of the posters is no different from those prevalent during the 1850s.

[Chicago Democrat]

102. Slavery reparations after Puritan reparations and Indian

reparations and French reparations and Palestinian reparations and Vietnamese reparations and Cuban reparations and Phillipine reparation and Haitian reparations and Iraqi reparations and Afghani reparations and my reparations from that guy who took my stuff makes me so so so so so so mad every time I think about it. Fuck you, you jerk gimmee my stuff back!

[Chicago Democrat]

104. Vandal reparations and Neanderthal reparation and Amoeba

reparations and Big Bang reparations

[Rez]

105. Chicago Democrat

What is your point with that post...it added nothing to the conversation...

[Chicago Democrat]

129. Slavery reparations piss me off! What a complete distraction

from the -right now-, LIFE and DEATH, survival of the Republic issues!



Duuh...I will spell it out. History is repleat with injustices. Rome was sacked, the Crusades, the Wars of the Reformation and on and on and on. You wanna re-fight all of history and make things "even" for everyone? We have to move forward. If you feel like slavery hurt you, prove it in a court of law or else shut up! I am sick of hearing, reading and writing about this ridiculous topic that was decided over a hundred years ago at the cost of half a million dead. Any reparations for the crime of the white man was paid for in their blood and the sin that comes with an inheritance like a plantation or a residence in Alabama.

I'm a yankee and have nothing to do with it, and my ancestors were in Europe at the time! Go bother someone else!

Instead of ragging on liberal Democrats that don't wanna hear about your chip on your shoulder and are actually the best ally Americans of Color ever had, why not scream at some Klansman or Colon Powell or Condoleeza Rice for such sellouts to Black America?

[qanda]

136. Why are you so angry and callous about it?

If you read the entire thread and especially the few posts from black people then you will understand the issue is a lot deeper than "white men's talking points"-- which, by the way, are so old and tired it isn't even funny. You seem to be the one with a chip on your shoulder telling black people they have no truer friend than liberal Democrats-- well, with friends like these we most certainly don't need enemies! Give me a break...

[Chicago Democrat]

139. Because we are at war and fascist run our government.

And anyone who raises this issue does nothing but divide Democrats and is working for Karl Rove.

Plus it will never ever, ever happen. If we discussed what angels wear it would have more relevance to the here and now. There are so many atrocities happening right now! Jeez

[qanda]

141. Your tone is disturbing

Are we supposed to talk all war all the time? There are other issues outside of what you may feel are most important. Kerry is running for President and he needs to let us know where he stands on all issues so that we can make an informed decision about how we should cast our vote.

And what do you mean by: "Anyone who raises this issue does nothing but divide Democrats and is working for Karl Rove."? It seems that the only issues that are off limits are the issues that black people raise. So sad...

[Chicago Democrat]

144. Reparations is a race baiting issue... Your tactics are passive

aggressive.

A wedge. A distraction. A non starter.

Obama for President.

[goclark]

164. We are not the enemy,Bush is!

Calm down and chill out and get off of the backs of African American posters and citizens.

African Americans by and large want the same ends that you do for this election. We fought and voted in massive numbers for Gore and to the best of my knowledge we will fight like hell to get Kerry elected.

We do have the right to question a candidate or Party or DU poster.
We are no longer slaves but because of that history we are more than a bit sensitive to someone telling us how we should think or react on an issue that is real to us.

I am not asking you to feel our pain. It is clear that you don't care to go in that direction.

I must tell you that it is not as much what you are saying but the way that you are saying it!

Remember,we are not the enemy, Bush is.
If you keep flaming this issue YOU will just add fuel to the fire.

Let's keep our eyes on the Prize...Victory in November which should translate into more compassionate leadership for all of us.

[Zynx]

117. I see your point.

[Chicago Democrat]

157. Democrats are my freinds and I hate arguing with my friends

Im pro-affimative action, I support the progressive Black caucus and all progressive issues... I'll even free Mumia. This reparations thing is a great big waste of time and energy.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

112. How many of those who seek reparations

shop at WalMart?

[Rez]

113. HAHAHAHA

"How many of those who ssupport reparations shop at WalMart?"

I don't know why...but this question just made me laugh!:)

[noiretextatique]

131. well...i'm not suprised: white people don't like reparations

is essentially kerry's...and just about everyone else's argument against reparations. same argument explains why reparations were never paid, btw.

[Uzybone]

142. He is right

Reparations are an idiotic idea, one thats mostly bandied about by the "perpetual victim" crowd. I was raised in a middle class family, far more well off than some trailer dweller in West Va. Why in the hell should I receive and govt handout before he does. Why in the hell should Clarence Thomas be eligible for govt largess just because he is a black man.

[Tomee450]

143. Utter nonsense!!

Such vitriol. You are spouting right wing talking points. Whenever blacks seeks justice there are always those who are eager to dismiss their claims and accuse them of being part of the "victim crowd." This attitude is only directed at black people and no one else. Just shows how deeply engrained is racial hostility towards African Americans on whose ancestors backs this country was built. This thread is truly sickening. I wish most African Americans had access to a computer so they could read it. All of this hostility coming from people who are supposedly moderate or progressive.

[Q]

170. I agree...this thread IS sickening...

...and I don't recognize the Democratic party anymore. The party has clearly been infiltrated by conservatives and their ONLY ambition is to win by adopting a RWing agenda. You could go to any RWing board on the internet and see similiar comments about the concerns of Blacks.

- And then these NeoDems whine when African Americans complain that they're no longer represented in the Dem party. If I were Black...I'd be voting third party...especially after the way Dems abandoned them in the 2000 election.

[Tomee450]

188. It is so

utterly discouraging to see such attitudes among democrats.

[goclark]

146. He needs to say more

I am ABB, but

I think that Kerry's remarks will need much more clarification.
When this is discussed in the African American community,my community, it will be said this way,"Kerry doesn't want us to have reparations."

That will not be well received with that one sentence!

Kerry's remarks indicated that he was not in favor of "Reparations for Slavery." Many African American scholars/lawyers have expressed other ways to give back to African Americans instead of "For Slavery."

My suggestion would be, in case he has not done so already, for Kerry to have a meeting with Johnnie Cochran, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Dr. Cornel West, Tavis Smiley, Tom Joyner (to name a few) and get their thoughts.

I want to believe that he has spoken to some or all of these people about such a sensitive issue. But, if he has not, it should be a MUST meeting for tomorrow morning BEFORE 8 AM.

I have already received two emails about this from friends. They had problems with the words in the article.

I have not checked with blackcommentator.com . I am sure this will be a hot topic there.

[RummyTheDummy]

147. American Indians deserve them far more than Blacks

After all, they were here before EVERYONE.

[Tomee450]

153. Native Americans do receive certain forms of reparations.

But so what if they were here first. Does that fact preclude blacks
from being entitled to reparations for hundreds of years of slavery and Jim Crow? Slaves were not paid a dime for their labour and had nothing to pass down to their descendants. After slavery, blacks were denied equal opportunity for over a hundred years under Jim Crow. Both groups are entitled to reparations.

[goclark]

156. Thank you for your kindness n/t

[preciousdove]

154. Greed divides every time.

Republicans lie when they say they are for it. I think the election of 2000 proves what they believe as far as non WASPS. The reparations movement was encouraged to divide the AA community. Somethin for nothin.

[TexasMexican]

163. I'm not going to pay reparations for Slavery.

Anyone care to try to make me change my mind?

[Tomee450]

173. What are you talking about?

Every day your tax dollars are going towards the support of citizens of other countries. Billions of dollars are supporting the people of Egypt, Israel, Russia, India and many other countries and you have absolutely nothing to say about it. CNN showed Israeli settlements. Millions of blacks wished they could live as well. Everyday your taxes are being used to subsidize billion dollar corporations. Ever hear of corporate welfare? Why the upset when the tax dollars may go to benefit citizens of this country, citizens whose children have fought and died for this nation, citizens whose ancestors' labour helped build this country, citizens who paid taxes but received less benefit from their taxes than other people. Why the outrage when its blacks who may benefit from the tax dollar. Could it be a matter of race?

[Shopaholic]

177. Neither party is ever going to agree to it

The idea of reparations is never going to be a reality. First of all, the country can't afford it, and secondly, how in the heck would you ever create the "rules" for such compensation? Would immigrant Americans be exempt? Would we just make the southerners whose families owned slaves pay? What do you do, as in my case, where half the family were slave owners and the other were fairly recent immigrant arrivals (Early 1900's Irish)? Do we just have to pay half? And how much compensation is fair? And while we're at it, can my family sue the British who stole our lands in Ireland and forced us to come to America? Would we make the African nations who sold their own people into slavery pay a share? Instead of worrying about what happened 150 or 250 years ago, we should be more concerned about what Bush & Co. are doing to this country today. This line of argument takes our eyes off the real issue and that is defeating George Bush. I can promise you that as long as he's in office, the middle class and the minorities of this country are going to be taxed to death while the upper classes are rewarded with a myriad of tax "reforms". Decent paying jobs will continue to flow to other countries and in addition to fighting a war that's costing American lives and billions of dollars, all of us will require reparation's in some form because we're all going to end up disenfranchised!

[Tomee450]

179. It was said that this country could not afford so many social programs

so many were cut. However went we went to war in Iraq, we suddenly found billions of dollars to fund that war. This country can afford reparations but lacks the will to do so since the recipients would be black. This discussion is not about what the African nations did. I am not against seeking reparations against them also. However since those nations have been raped by the colonizers, I don't know where they'd get the money to pay. Some African leaders, unlike those of the US, have apologized for their part in slavery. Many opponents of reparation mention that their families were oppressed by other countries. I say seek reparations from those countries and the fact that others were oppressed or enslaved does not negate the African American claim against this country. What happened years ago is of great concern for blacks because had we been treated fairly, our conditions would not be as they are today. When slavery ended, our people were left with nothing. During Jim Crow, a lesser form of slavery, blacks were paid the lowest of wages, were unable to get a decent education and suffered other inequalities. All of that oppression was state sanctioned and it is the state that should pay. It was the state that paid reparations to the Japanese and are continuing to pay reparations to Native Americans. Why does this country remain unwilling to address the legitimate grievances of millions of its people? It is a matter of race,period.

[Al Newer]

189. Kerry opposes "repairs"...

John Kerry yesterday told students at Howard University that he doesn't support financial reparations for blacks, saying it would only divide the nation and "not heal the wounds."


John Kerry does not know anything about healing wounds, especially in America. Talk about finance...Has he been to the doctor lately?


I personally do not believe that America is going to advance if we go backwards and look to reparations in the way that some people are defining them," Mr. Kerry told Aaron Nelson, 20, a junior political science major, who questioned the Democratic presidential hopeful on his stance.


If Mr. Kerry worked for me for any extended period of time without receiving pay, he would not only want severance pay, but he'd want retro pay, especially had he not been paid for his services. If he says that he would voluntarily work for free, then he is not the man to sit in the seat of president. We already have had too many liars in office.



The senator from Massachusetts said he understood the deep-rooted "scars" blacks still feel in America after slavery, Jim Crow legislation and segregation, but said reparations would divide the nation, not heal wounds.


Reparations would not heal wounds? What is "reparation"?


rep·a·ra·tion n.

1. The act or process of repairing or the condition of being repaired.
2. The act or process of making amends; expiation.
3. Something done or paid to compensate or make amends.
4. reparations Compensation or remuneration required from a defeated nation as indemnity for damage or injury during a war.


restoration, from Latin repartus, past participle of reparre, to repair. See repair1.]


Now, let's re-write the above section of the article and replace "reparation" with "repair".


The senator from Massachusetts said he understood the deep-rooted "scars" blacks still feel in America after slavery, Jim Crow legislation and segregation, but said REPAIRS would divide the nation, not heal wounds.


"Repairs" would divide the nation, not heal the wounds? Damn, I thought Bush was bad with his "strategery". Can we get an intelligent person in office?



"When you mention the word slave ... in 2004, it's almost a shocking, unbelievable notion that in this country we wrote slavery into our Constitution before we wrote it out," Mr. Kerry said.


Mr. Kerry, it is not unbelievable. Mere inscriptions on paper are no more shocking than the script of a horror movie. Re-writing the script does not address the act after it has been played out. More must be done. Repair must be done. Reparation must be done.


Al Newer

[serryjw]

190. I would give reparations to a few

There are still a few citizens whom were slaves that are still living. I would make the balance of their lives very confortable. NO ONE else. Heck, most blacks under 40 don't even believe there was civil rights movement.They have grown up with a good opportunity and the prejudice that may still exist in parts of the country will not be solved with money. Besides, where is this money going to come from.....America is bleeding red!