Outrage after police and fire officials watch man drown himself in San Francisco Bay

[RamboLiberal]

Source: LA Times

Amid public outrage over the case, authorities have launched an investigation into why officials in one Bay Area city watched without taking action as a man intentionally drowned himself in San Francisco Bay on Memorial Day.

According to city officials and witnesses, police and firefighters in the city of Alameda did not attempt to rescue the man as he took his own life because they did not have water training. A bystander ended up wading into the water to pull the man's body out.

"We are absolutely going to do an investigation," Mayor Marie Gilmore told the San Jose Mercury News. "And we are planning to do it in as transparent a way as possible."

In the wake of the case, the city said it is changing its policy to allow water rescues. Some who witnessed the incident said they were surprised the firefighters didn't attempt to rescue the man.



Read more: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/06/outrage-after-fire-police-officials-watched-man-drown-himself-in-san-francisco-bay.html

---

A 50-year-old man waded into the San Francisco Bay, stood up to his neck and waited. A Coast Guard boat couldn't get into the shallow water, and fire crews said they couldn't rescue him because of a policy that strictly forbade such attempts.

Finally, a witness went in after him, pulling his lifeless body from the bay.

Alameda officials said Tuesday they'll change the island city's water rescue policy after the apparently suicidal man died in the 54-degree water.

-----

The previous policy was implemented after budget cuts forced the department to discontinue water rescue training and stop maintaining wetsuits and other rescue gear, D'Orazi said.

http://articles.sfgate.com/2011-05-31/news/29607311_1_water-rescue-rescue-equipment-fire-crews

[Sonoman]

1. They didn't have cold-water gear.

No way I would jump into that water unless I knew the person well.

From what I've read in the local rag, it appears that hypothermia might have killed him.

Sonoman

[juxtaposed]

11. I've jumped and grabbed people in water colder than that.

This is the same as letting your house burn B/C you did not pay your taxes,,, Enjoy your Ayn Rand,,, America

[jberryhill]

22. That were actively resisting you?

This isn't some hapless soul who just fell in.

[Xithras]

26. Not in the San Francisco Bay you haven't.

This thread is full of people who obviously haven't spent any time on that particular body of water. Zero visibility, nasty chop, strong tidal currents, and mudflats that suck you down like quicksand.

I've sailed and fished on the Bay many times, and I've fallen in twice. If I hadn't been wearing a lifejacket, I doubt I'd be typing this right now. Unless it were my own wife or kid, there is NO WAY I'd go into those waters without the proper gear. Not even to save someone's life.

The San Francisco Bay isn't some pool, lake, or river. It may be mostly surrounded by land, but it's still the ocean, and not a particularly pleasant stretch of it.

[eilen]

32. Well, it must not have been too bad where he was

because a bystander WADED in the bay and pulled the guy out.

[jberryhill]

36. Dead people don't fight back much

[here_is_to_hope]

39. Lol!

"Zero visibility, nasty chop, strong tidal currents, and mudflats that suck you down like quicksand."

Yeah, thats why he was able to stand in one spot for an hour.
Enjoy your scary Bay.

:eyes:

[Retrograde]

58. Then you're a better person than I am

Back when I was taking sailing classes on the Bay, the instructors stressed some basic safety measures: the water's in the 50s year round, so if you fall in you have about a 50% chance of dying from hypothermia in about an hour; familiarize yourself with the currents and tides before setting out so you can get back; much of the bottom is muck.

I've thought about what I would do if confronted with a similar situation, and sadly have to side with the firefighters. This wasn't a case of someone falling in and wanting to get out (been there on both sides): it was someone trying to kill himself who got himself a good distance from shore somehow and had no intention of coming back. Maybe someone with a shallow-draft boat could have made a difference, maybe it would have encouraged him to go out further. Knowing my own abilities, my going after a suicidal person in the Bay would most likely result in two deaths.

I feel sorry for all involved, including the rescue people who were in the situation of an engineer who sees someone standing on the tracks in front of him and knows that as much as he wishes he could stop in time the laws of physics just won't let him.

[deathrind]

19. Wow

...just wow.

This is the same thing as the fire fighters who stood by a watched a persons house burn down because he did not pay a $75 dollar fee last year...

These people are not fire fighters or police, real ones do not do this.

[NashVegas]

67. Not, Not Really

Firefighters are trained to rescue people in fire, not cold water.

[RamboLiberal]

47. Not criticizing the fire or police but what about the witness

who went in the water & got the body? What special equipment did he have? Everyone commenting on this story seems to have missed that.

And remember Air Florida into the icy Potomac when Lenny Skutnick & I believe one other civilian jumped in to the river to try to save passengers?

[DFab420]

56. First off it was a SHE who went to get his body.

That was after he floated 50 yards into shore. ALSO

she was a cold-water trained rescuer and a nurse.


http://www.contracostatimes.com/news/ci_18172320?source=rss&nclick_check=1

[here_is_to_hope]

62. What a reach.

Thats not how she is described. But you knew that.

"she was a nurse trained in water rescue."

Says nothing about "rescuer" nor "cold".






mfw

[DFab420]

69. Lol so she was trained in water rescue, but isn't a water rescuer???

I'll give you the cold part, I mis-represented that part and that's my mistake.

[RamboLiberal]

78. My bad - was at work and didn't have time to follow up on civilian

Good for her.

[sharesunited]

2. Isn't this like someone on a building ledge?

[jberryhill]

10. Yes

People talk blithely about "rescuing" the guy.

We're talking about an adult willfully in cold water who doesn't WANT to be pulled out of it.

Sure, you can grab the guy on the ledge too, but without proper gear to back you up, you are going with him.

[musette_sf]

13. + 1

You are correct.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[somone]

3. What if it had been a child?

[jberryhill]

8. Children are generally not inclined to do that

However, a suicidal adult in cold water could easily decide he's not going alone.

[DFab420]

54. Hopefully a child wouldn't be trying to drown themselves???

[DreamSmoker]

4. The New America

Who and when will it be next????
I was a Fire Fighter years ago.. I would have done what I had to do to save this mans life..
Even if it took breaking the Damned law..
What kind of Fire Fighters and Rescuers Are we hiring these days???? More worried about their own asses than the people they swore to protect...
This story tells it all.. Would you want these guys to show up if you or a loved one needed help???
It was just a few months ago when Fire Fighter in another state watched a Residents house burn to the ground while protecting outer exposed neighbors homes because the owner did not pay his yearly fee...

This is not the American way I was raised with at all..
God help us if this is the way of the future in America...

[somone]

5. We have become a legalistic society

where there is little justice or fairness or even common sense

[The Stranger]

79. It really isn't a question of laws at all.

It is hyper-individualism, atomism, absolute self-supremacy. If another is drowning, the thinking goes, that is his own personal responsibility.

[somone]

87. They sure sounded like a bunch of sissy assholes afraid to break their fingernails

while waiting for their fat pension

[monmouth]

6. Wish I could rec your post...n/t

[kestrel91316]

7. This is what happens when people don't want to pay the necessary taxes for public services.

[slackmaster]

20. Firefighters get paid to stand around and watch things fall apart?

I'm not following your logic. If there had been no available firefighters, it might be a valid point.

[Threedifferentones]

91. According to the article,

Water rescue training and equipment were scrapped years ago after budget cuts. So, that's a valid point.

[avaistheone1]

93. Bullshit.

Grap a rope and lifesafer.

What a bunch of heartless,lazy pussies.

[tabasco]

96. Absolutely correct.

Couldn't have said it better.

[StarsInHerHair]

23. this is what happen s when the rich dont pay their share of the taxes

[Llewlladdwr]

50. What does this have to do with taxes? NT

[calimary]

29. This is what you get when you vote republi-CON.

The bad guys get in and gain power - to set the agenda, make some really hideous changes, influence, and indeed infect the national psyche. They encourage the notion that government is bad, paying taxes to support the government services you count on (whether you think you do or not), some of them a matter of life and death. When that kind of advocacy is allowed to spread, it becomes like a cancer that's metastasized.

It is sometimes rather depressing to see how this country has devolved in its attitudes. It's all about selfishness, greed, money-grubbing, cheapskate-ism (if that's somehow a word), and thoughtlessness. Is that really the America we want? I look at what's happening in states like Ohio and Florida, where people freakin' HATE their extremist republi-CON governors. Well, why the hell did the voters in Ohio and Florida VOTE for those assholes? Where they not paying attention? Were they listening only to limbaugh and watching only Pox Noise? And now they're all in an outrage since they're starting to wake up to what these bastards are actually DOING now that they have power?

They'll probably turn their states blue, or bluer, in next year's election.

The real tragedy of this is, two years later after the Dems have taken back a whole lot of the political playing field, when the propaganda has allowed voters to think things that are not true about them and forget how horrid the GOP was when it was in charge, many of these same voters will vote republi-CONS back in again.

I so ARDENTLY hope I'm wrong. But then again, I can't for the life of me understand why ANYONE would EVER vote republi-CON, on the merits of the issues alone!

[slackmaster]

55. San Francisco is run by Republicans?

That's an interesting tidbit of information.

[here_is_to_hope]

72. No but Cali is run by

the most corrupt nanny stater fee grabbing scum you've ever met. You need a permit just to shake a stick down there.

[calimary]

80. Nope. It's the overall attitude - that then pushes Dems everywhere to start caving

and behaving as DINOs.

[slackmaster]

82. The policy that is cited as the reason for the lack of rescue sounds like one designed to protect...

...public employees. Hardly a DINO attitude.

[calimary]

90. Guess nobody's getting my point. Perhaps it's because I'm not presenting it well.

At least, not as well as Thom Hartmann does...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=385&topic_id=588829

[U4ikLefty]

95. enjoy San Diego.

[slackmaster]

98. San Diego is not the issue

:dunce:

[JoeyT]

31. Same here.

I could just about see the burning house one, since the guy was exactly the sort of person that would've sued them if they'd stepped on his property and no lives were in danger. If a life is in danger good luck winning a lawsuit against firefighters or cops that are trying to rescue them.

[juxtaposed]

9. throw then all in jail........ I've run into things I should not have over the years

This is B/S ,,, Put them in jail if they saw this man dieing put them in jail or throw them off the force.
This is sick, FUCKING SICK!

[calimary]

30. That's what you get when you vote republi-CON.

See post 29.

:banghead:

[jberryhill]

41. The mayor of Alameda is a Democrat

Marie Gilmore made local history when she was elected as the first African American woman to the Alameda City Council. Utilizing her skills honed as an attorney and known for her ability to build consensus, Marie has held leadership positions in Alameda for over 15 years.

[calimary]

81. Yes certainly. My complaint was AND is - there's been such a strong and aggressive

push, starting several decades ago, to shove America to the so-called "right" ("right" is a misnomer - it's just totally WRONG), and it's forced too many Democrats by now to behave, and vote, and legislate, as DINOS.

[here_is_to_hope]

40. +1000! n/t

[slackmaster]

12. People cowed by excessive rules and regulations

Micromanagement by government. That's what this story is about.

[tabasco]

15. Assholes.

"We gotta do it by the book."

[Codeine]

16. Without proper equipment they could have been killed.

Not worth it.

[tabasco]

17. LOL.

I don't suppose firefighters carry ropes and carabiners.

[jberryhill]

21. To do what with?

Is the part about the guy being suicidal just skipped over?

This is a forced removal of someone who didn't want to be rescued against his will.

[boppers]

24. Rescuing drowning people who *want* to be saved is incredibly dangerous.

They tend to take people with them.

Add in a suicidal person, and things look a lot worse.


edit:typo

[tabasco]

92. Tie a rope around my waist.

Hold the rope while I go save this guy.

Thank you,

A person with one ounce of courage and common sense.

[hedgehog]

51. It's not a matter of not worth it, it's a matter of an unhappy outcome.

If they'd gone into the water, the headlines would most likely read "Firefighters killed in failed attempt to rescue man".

It's one thing to risk your life when there is a chance of success; firefighters do that every day. It's quite another to risk your life when the odds are that you will end up dying without rescuing anyone.

[slackmaster]

18. By the book, and in accordance with the terms of their contract

Which I suspect says they can't be compelled to go into the water unless they've had specific training for water rescues.

[No Elephants]

25. I hope the poor guy somehow knows his death accomplished something good.

"In the wake of the case, the city said it is changing its policy to allow water rescues."


Also disappointed in the Coast Guard. The water was too shallow for a boat, so they can do absolutely nothing?

Okay, this guy wanted to die, but what of someone in the same waters who didn't want to die.

[Vidar]

27. Suicide should be a legal right, then they wouldn't need to interfere.

[some guy]

28. + 1

Hey, I like your post best in this thread. Congrats on adding a whole different perspective. I completely agree, but that hadn't occurred to me until I read your words.

:applause:

[Vidar]

89. Thank you.

[Thornleylv]

33. Talk about a "Death Panel"

[hedgehog]

34. This thread is why I come to DU - I started out with one opinion, and now

have another.

The key points I learned here ( or had reiterated - I should have known them already)

1. The waters of San Franciso Bay are notoriously cold and treacherous. This wasn't a matter of stepping into a local lake and grabbing someone by the arm. To rescue this person, several people would have had to strip down to their skivvies, then head into neck deep cold water. Now, neck deep means that you can be knocked off your feet by a wave, so neck deep means you areswimming in 54 degree water.

http://www.ussartf.org/cold_water_survival.htm

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/education_safety/safety/ice/hypothermia.pdf


2. The man entered the water deliberately. The comparison to someone standing on a ledge is apt. The odds are that if anyone had entered the water - he would have gone out farther and been swept off his feet. The firefighters had ropes but no flotation devices. On television, they would have tied a rope around themselves, swum out, grabbed the man who stood there waiting quietly, knocked him out with one well placed punch, then been pulled back to shore. In real life, entering the water with a rope would
have just made it easier for their buddies to recover their bodies.
What I learned elsewhere:

The Coast Guard dispatched a rescue helicopter from the site of another rescue, but the incident was over before the helicopter arrived.

http://firegeezer.com/2011/05/31/fire-and-police-stand-by-and-watch-man-drown/


So, this isn't a story about firefighters and police letting a man die rather than breaking the rules. This is a story of rescuers who didn't have the proper equipment or training to perform a rescue. In industry, a confined space is a tank or pit that may not have enough oxygen and/or contain poisonous vapors. In confined space training, one point that gets pounded in over and over is that you do not enter a tank or pit to rescue a fallen worker without breathing equipment. All too often, the "rescuers" themselves lose consciousness, resulting in additional fatalities. You can't rescue someone if you yourself are dead.

[jberryhill]

35. ...and if he drowned trying to get away from them...

...then you know who would be held liable for his death.

[hedgehog]

37. Again, I wouldn't accuse the firefighters of thinking of possible law suits,

but rather recognizing that they couldn't save the man without the proper equipment. I think comparison to seeing a man down in a confined space is right; they couldn't help the victim and they themselves might have died.

[here_is_to_hope]

48. Yeah, how did we ever save any one

in the cold waters without all of our modern gear?
Oh wait, we did.

No excuses, none.

[DFab420]

52. Easy for you to say sitting at your computer desk.

Next time you see a man drowning himself in the middle of the SF Bay, please feel free to swim out in the the 54 degree water with heavy currents and swim him back. Even though he may just be dead weight for you to swim back with, or maybe he even swims out deeper, or pulls you under with him...
So please. You can go and risk being drowned.

Is story tragic? Yes. someone died, of course it's sad.

Is it the firemen's fault? Not at all.

[here_is_to_hope]

60. Oh yes it is the fault of the Fireman, Policeman or any other

"public servant" that witnessed this tragedy.
Weak little shits, all of them.

And "middle of the bay" means that you are reaching so go get some common sense and get back to me. All reports say he was STANDING.

Those of you justifying this shit are why we can't have nice things.

I surf Oregon, cold, fickle and sharkey so yeah, every day I risk being eaten or drowning.

Scarey.

Now excuse while I go risk my life having fun.

mfw...ohimsoscared.jpg

[Incitatus]

76. wrong

It was a suicide.

[here_is_to_hope]

83. If you say so.

Oh wait, no. It was a suicide in the making, they let it happen.
So while it could have been a rescue of an obviously disturbed man, it became suicide by utterly indifferent assholes.

I don't know you from Adam but you ain't drowning if I don't let you.

I am moving on from this shit, I don't care about Cali, it blows, their public employess blow, their government on all levels blow and their state parks are the most expensive in the Nation.
Yeah, any one else who does this, say, threatens to jump from the Golden Gate after climbing up a hundred feet, let the bastard swan dive into a double tuck somersault head first at 90 mph into the abyss of the Bay for all I care.
And I hope the firesissies and the polissies and the generally indiferrent public hold up score cards.



mfw facepalm.jpg

[Throd]

86. "Those of you justifying this shit are why we can't have nice things."

That, my friend, is California in a nutshell.

[ReadTomPaine]

64. He'd be in good company, sitting back on the sidelines & doing nothing.

He can share a burger with boys from the local FD & PD and watch. Maybe YouTube it eh? It's certainly going to be a special moment the department will remember for a long time to come. These days someone's life isn't worth suffering a reprimand or the loss of your job, anyway. Especially when you're a first responder, right? Besides, policy is policy, and we all know that trumps public health and safety whenever a conflict arises, don't we.

Oh and I didn't realize that the bay was the size of a parking lot and 5 feet deep in the middle. But hey, they hadn't been trained since '09, I'm sure they all forgot what they'd been taught before then. It's like riding a bike, you have to relearn it every time or you'll be killed. A person can drown in an inch of water, after all. He must have been crazy strong since he stood still in all those "heavy currents" "in the middle of SF Bay" for an hour before he succumbed to exposure and slipped into unconsciousness. Why, that sick man in shallow water could have slaughtered them all.

So don't expect the men and women of FD/PD to serve the way their fathers and mothers did a generation ago, when being a first responder meant a lot more than it does today. Just look at the lesson taught to the "foolish" first responders on 9/11, who broke policy left and right, risking their lives to save people. I doubt that will happen again. Policy forbids it.

[here_is_to_hope]

66. YOU ROCK.

That is all.

[DFab420]

70. Wow......really?

The Bay covers somewhere between 400 and 1,600 square miles (1,040 to 4,160 square kilometers), depending on which sub-bays (such as San Pablo Bay), estuaries, wetlands, and so on are included in the measurement.<1><2> The main part of the Bay measures 3 to 12 miles (5 to 20 km) wide east-to-west and somewhere between 48 miles (77 km)1 and 60 miles (97 km)2 north-to-south. It is the largest Pacific estuary in North or South America.

That's a big fucking parking lot...

Also at a 150 yards off shore the 6 foot 3 man stood for about an hour with 75 onlookers not including the fire and rescue. So why aren't you pissed at those 75 people? Where is your outrage that the good citizens of Alameda didn't do anything till the dead body floated closer to shore? They had an hour right???


"Zack "gradually inched out farther and farther" from the shore but occasionally glanced back over his shoulder at the beach, " http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43233984/ns/us_news-life/

"Along with police and firefighters, wind surfers and joggers paused to watch as the coldness of the bay slowly weakened the 300-pound, 6-foot-3 Alameda resident." http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_18186732?nclick_check=1

[ReadTomPaine]

74. You're the one who started talking about swimming out to "the middle of the bay", not me.

I was pointing out the absurdity of your claim. I'm glad you agree that what you said was absurd, though I doubt you meant to do so. It seems to have gone over your head.

Also at a 150 yards off shore the 6 foot 3 man stood for about an hour with 75 onlookers not including the fire and rescue. So why aren't you pissed at those 75 people? Where is your outrage that the good citizens of Alameda didn't do anything till the dead body floated closer to shore? They had an hour right???

Careful with that strawman, they are highly flammable. The citizens you scorn weren't called to the scene for a rescue. People were waiting for the PD/FD to respond, since it is their sworn duty to do so and they were on the scene in force with boats, trucks, fire, police, coast guard & EMS. Waiting in vain it seems. I wouldn't be surprised to find out the police prevented anyone on shore from assisting. They tend to be touchy about jurisdiction and citizen action, and citizens have learned well what happens when you annoy a cop in the east bay.

This was an easy call. Alameda's already backtracking. You're out in the middle of the bay, alone on this one. Better do some backtracking yourself, as you are out of your depth and no one is swimming out to save you.

[fascisthunter]

84. awesome reply

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hedgehog]

44. What do you wear while surfing?

[here_is_to_hope]

46. Our water is currently 56 degrees, I wore

a 3 mil spring suit yesterday, in the water for four hours, air was 60...
I sometimes wear a hat, sometimes sport an ipod. I am 500 miles north of where this happened. A bit colder but the same 50/50/50 rule fits. You can last an hour at these temps even if you don't know how.

I know where you want to go with this but there are no excuses.
None.

[hedgehog]

49. Here is a picture of a 3 mil spring suit:

http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/detail/shop_landing.jsp?OPTION=WETSUITS_LANDING&src=vupa0001


Here is what the firemen presumably had:

http://www.jockey.com/en-US/Catalog/DepartmentMen.aspx

[here_is_to_hope]

61. Oh just fuck.

That picture is a full suit, a spring suit is no legs, no arms but if you knew anything about 'gear', you would know that. But you don't. But thanks for playing.

Oh my, what did we ever do without wetsuits? Must have let millions drown for fear of cold.
The issue stands, these people let him die.
No excuses, none.

You and fabulous420 can strawman all you want but fuck all, gear or no, these people that let him die suck ass.



jelly.jpg

[DFab420]

53. Yea of course. you had a full body wetsuit and you say the water is fine.

lol you are SOOOOOO hardcore man...

[hedgehog]

59. Someone who surfs the area regularly would have skills that most

people, including firemen, would not have. None of the civilians on the scene entered the water until the man was dead.

[here_is_to_hope]

65. No.

There is no surf there, it's a bay that gets some windchop at best.
But if it were so, lets hire surfers rather than these useless bastards.

[hedgehog]

71. Yep, next time there's a fire, let's call some surfers instead of these useless bastards.

:eyes:

[here_is_to_hope]

73. See? We have reached consensus.

Two years ago, three tourists were swept into the sea about a 1/4 mile from where we were surfing. One guy called the Coast Guard, a local came and yelled to us out in the water that people were in the water. Guess who got there first?
It was still too late for the boy, his uncle and a dog.
But we went in and got the bodies of the boy and the dog, never found the Uncle.

http://kezi.com/news/local/58264

6 years ago, three tourists were swept from their little boat (sheer stupidity) when they crossed a sandbar and ended up drowning, watched the whole thing. Nothing we could do in that case. You pick'em.

Could I have saved this guy? Maybe, I could have at least paddled out to him and said hi, watcha doing? And at no risk to myself thank you.
I would do the same for you or any one (but jberryhill, that sucka is going to die!)


(thats sarcasm for my good friend berryhill, who right at this moment is pulling his hair out and wondering what to post next)

[jberryhill]

75. My hair is fine

Actually, I feel sorry for you.

You seem to have some sort of feelings of personal inadequacy which require you to put down others in order to feel good about yourself.

That never ends well. I've seen that movie before.

[here_is_to_hope]

63. And you are not.

So you either rise up or fail.


Lol.
That was too easy.
Got anything else?

[buckrogers1965]

43. He wanted to kill himself and could have killed others.

Why risk police or firefighters lives for some idiot who is killing himself? I say good riddance. If everyone had just packed up and left instead of providing this crazy with an audience, then he might have come back into shore.

[here_is_to_hope]

45. Just fucking wow at your comment. eom

[Nossida]

57. We know who to thank.

This is a result of no Taxes on the Rich.
But then, they couldn't care less what
happens to anyone. Thanks to republicans
our Nation is quickly becoming a Hell
Hole.

[NashVegas]

68. How Many People In This Thread Think Jack Kevorkian Should Be In Jail?

Just curious, because I wouldn't condemn these guys anymore than I would condemn a water rescue team for failing to go into a burning building after someone, either.

[Incitatus]

77. +1

[fascisthunter]

85. sociopathy... the new cult of personality

[Ken Burch]

88. In a city that's next to several large bodies of water, they see water rescues as a FRILL?

Christ on a biscuit.

[avaistheone1]

94. I know

I am laughing my ass off at these jerks, but not at this tragedy.

[OnlinePoker]

97. What right do they have to rescue him?

If he wanted to commit suicide and didn't call for help, that's his right...it's his body to do with as he pleases.