Pakistan played 'pivotal role' in operation to kill al-Qaeda leader

[Turborama]

Source: Telegraph (UK)

7:29AM BST May 04 2011

Salman Bashir told the BBC that US statements suggesting they were not trusted with details of raid was 'disquietening.'

CIA chief Leon Panetta has said no intelligence was shared with Pakistan for fear the raid would be jeopardised.

"He is entitled to his views but I know for sure that we have extended every cooperation to the US including the CIA, and to other countries as far as the campaign against terror is concerned, said Mr Bashir.

"All the significant al-Qaeda people who have been picked up, it was done by the ISI (Pakistan's Intelligence Service), from Pakistan towns and cities. Therefore this whole context that seems to have surfaced about the lack of trust is, in my view, sort of misplaced."

Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8491561/Osama-bin-Laden-dead-Pakistan-played-pivotal-role-in-operation-to-kill-al-Qaeda-leader.html

---

Pakistan tipped off US about bin Laden compound, minister claims
Latest update : Wednesday May 04 2011

By Radio France International

Pakistan's Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani called for the world's help in fighting "terrorism and extremism", during a visit to Paris which followed the killing of Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden. Pakistani Foreign Minister Salman Bashir has claimed that his country’s secret services, the ISI, told the US in 2009 that bin Laden’s compound was suspicious.

The ISI had tipped off the Americans but the resources of the US’s CIA were needed to determine wether the villa in Abottabad was an Al-Qaeda hideout, said Bashir. He angrily rejected claims by CIA chief Leon Panetta working with Islamabad “could have jeopardised the mission”.

=snip=

France may withdraw its troops from Afghanistan before 2014, Foreign Minister Alain Juppé told RFI’s sister TV station, France 24, after meeting Gilani on Tuesday. He also insisted that there must be cooperation with Pakistan, adding that Gilani had admitted that the operation showed a failure on the part of Pakistani security services.

The rest of the world shares the blame for the intelligence failure, Gilani said Wednesday.

Full article: http://www.english.rfi.fr/americas/20110504-pakistan-tipped-us-about-bin-laden-compound-minister-claims

[aquart]

1. Uh huh.

[Atman]

2. Yes. A pivotal roll...they remained clueless.

That helped immensely.

[sabrina 1]

7. Do you know how many Pakistani soldiers have died

fighting OUR war on terror? We really are an ungrateful country. No wonder the world has come to totally distrust this country. But Pakistan and every other country we 'befriend' should have known better. We are not known for being loyal to or even truthful, about our allies and will drop them in a heartbeat to fend for themselves, after getting them into untenable situations in their own countries, if it suits our purposes.

[OhioChick]

8. Very Well Stated, Sabrina. n/t

[MellowDem]

18. Wow, talk about false pretenses...

somehow I don't see it as OUR war on terror when these guys are killing tons of innocent Pakistanis and are an enemy of the Pakistani government. No, they are fighting in their own interests, and not very well, and certainly not for us, and there is no need to feel any sort of gratefulness for Pakistan, which is just another psycho authoritarian backwater that doesn't care for its own people, much less fighting some war on terror. Pakistan is not a true ally, just a country where our interests happen to somewhat cross, like the Soviets and the Allies in WW2.

[sabrina 1]

19. No one is a true ally to the US. Nor is the US a true ally

to anyone else. Every sovereign nation prioritizes its own national interests first and foremost. Why would you think other 'backwater' as you call them (ever been to Pakistan btw?) nations exist solely for the purpose of servicing the US??? Where on earth do Americans get these ideas from? This arrogant attitude of the US towards other sovereign nations will eventually, and is in fact beginning to happen, cause fewer and fewer nations to align themselves with the US.

The barely hidden racism of US policies towards nations that are primarily non-European is reminiscent of the other now fallen Empire, Great Britain currently latching on to the coat-tails of the newest Colonial Empire, the US. Bad habits die hard.

But unfortunately for the old Colonialists, there is a major shift taking place in the world. It began in Latin America when that region of the world threw off the chains of its old US backed dictators and replaced them with democratic government, and it is spreading across the Arab World now, with the potential of seeing the US without too many allies left once all of its dictator friends have been deposed, AND prosecuted as is happening in South America and N. Africa.

Like it or not, the US will have to begin to respect other nations and recognize that THEIR needs are not a priority, nor should they be, for other nations. It's too bad as we could have been a strong and powerful, and JUST nation had we followed a different course. At the moment though, US power is waning and it has no one to blame but itself.

[MellowDem]

20. You are arguing strawmen...

Pakistan is a backwater relatively, in a lot of ways. I don't think, and neither does US leadership, that non-European nations must serve our interests. The US has always primarily treated other nations, regardless of their racial makeup, through the lens of political interests, as does every nation on Earth.

The US isn't basing its policies on racism, it's far too practical to do something as stupid as that. Whatever the color of the people, if it is in the US's interests, they will try to do it, and there are countless examples of that throughout history until today.

America isn't fighting against the democratic movements in the Arab world, if anything it is encouraging them, if not somewhat selectively based on its interests, for which it has been criticized. Pakistan's leadership wants us there, and they want our money, but for their own reasons, and they will use every opportunity to gain political advantage at the expense of the US.

So ironically enough, the US is doing what you are asking, they are recognizing the needs of Pakistan and meeting them to get what they want. It's just the needs of the Pakistani leadership though. If the people of Pakistan want a voice, they'll have to take action themselves. For now, the US just deals with the sovereign government of Pakistan, which you have deemed to be completely legitimate, so I don't really see what you are complaining about.

[sabrina 1]

21. Would the US ever conduct

military military operations in a European country against the express wishes of that country's government, no matter what the reasons?

And you don't think the words used by our military generals 'treat the Iraqis like dogs' eg (Gen. Miller) or the propaganda used to get the support of the American people for their invasions, 'ragheads' 'camel jockeys' etc. are racist words, many times used by the US military and its troops against the people of Iraq and Afghanistan?

Would top US officials, (Michael Ledeen et al) speak about turning Europe into an inferno ("faster please") and restructuring it to comply with US interests? Exactly what right did these top officials have to even think they had the right to do these things, and without any kind of repercussions, from the US media, from their superiors etc.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'backwater', but the Pakistanis I have known during my lifetime have often been far more intelligent, thoughtful, educated and rational than some of our own elected officials.

Pakistan like so many other nations around the globe was a victim of Colonialism. Racism was a hallmark of the British Empire, with Churchill being among the worst. A man revered in the West who proposed using chemical weapons to wipe out those troublesome Arabs who weren't cooperating as far as recognizing the British Empire's god given right to their resources.

It's not a secret that in order to gin up support for our own Colonial adventures we have used some pretty nasty racist epithets against Muslims, the latest 'enemies' of the state. Our torture methods were directly related to the Muslim culture eg, and came from some of this country's now most respected members of society.

The truth is that many Americans believe themselves to be superior to those 'backwater' nations. I find the whole thing to be thoroughly despicable. Us foreign policy is no different than any other of the old Colonial Empires' policies towards people from Africa or the ME or S.America. And it's way past time to start changing it before the rest of the world does the job for us, as is now happening in the Arab world and in Latin America.

[MellowDem]

49. We've done lots of military missions...

in Europe against the express wishes of their leaders, Serbia being the latest one, but Europe, thankfully, is by and large wealthy and stable lately, and US interests there don't require military missions. The racist names you list have been used against all enemies of the US by soldiers since forever, white or otherwise, and certainly isn't part of the official propaganda anymore, though it used to be with the Germans and the Japanese.

What Pakistanis you personally know or their intelligence is pretty irrelevant in describing societies that are still stuck in the past in a lot of ways.

Churchill and British colonialism is irrelevant, we are talking about the US. Colonialism was all about resource and profit. Who is this "we" that is ginning up support for our wars and how have they been doing so? Certainly not the majority of the US or even US government.

I do think that American culture is superior to Pakistani culture overall, no doubt about it. Then again, I think that Swedish culture is superior to American culture in many ways. Pakistan is stuck in the stone age in many areas, and the worst aspects of American society happen to have a lot in common with what is commonplace in Pakistan.

I don't think this makes Pakistanis worst people or deserving of death. I understand that the US operates based on its interests, which are for the most part wholly materialistic and resource based, not based on ideas of freedom or racism even.

[Turborama]

28. Yes, I do. 3,117 security forces members killed, including 2,351 soldiers. Here are the statistics..

War in North-West Pakistan

Date March 16, 2004 – ongoing
(7 years, 50 days)

Location Federally Administered Tribal Areas and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (formerly known as NWFP) in Pakistan

Casualties and losses

Pakistan:
3,117 security forces members killed (2,351 soldiers)
6,512 soldiers wounded
857+ soldiers and policemen captured (558 released)

Tribes: 235+ killed,

United States:
15 soldiers killed

17,742 militants killed or captured as of February 2010

Source (with all the references): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_North-West_Pakistan

[OhioChick]

40. Thanks for the factual post!

:)

[trud]

3. Can we leave now? Why the heck are we wasting lives and money on that mess of a country? n/t

[Fool Count]

4. Obviously. They hosted the event.

[Javaman]

5. aka pakistan coughed up the info via a huge bribe/threat. nt

[cosmicone]

6. Pakistan is spinning this like crazy ....

they don't like the choice between A) Bumbling Bozos or B) Complicit Crooks.

Having known the history of Pakistan, it is the latter. All the terrorism allows them to make money by use of the nuclear blackmail.

i.e. "You better give us money so that the nukes don't fall into the wrong hands." For this strategy, they NEED wrong hands around.

Since Pakistan is not willing to get rid of the Kashmiri terrorist, Al Q'aeda terrorists and Taliban terrorists, perhaps we should have more raids on their territory and put the nukes in "right hands", ours.

[sabrina 1]

9. Well, your dream is not going to come true.

The US has stated it will continue to work with Pakistan. Maybe if the US would stop killing Pakistani citizens with its drones, causing immense problems for the government there, there might be a better chance of dealing with the issues that are really important.

The Pakistan peace movement has asked yet again, that the US stop sending those cowardly and deadly weapons into their country.

But, so far there has been no sign that the US has any intention of halting those murderous missions. If the US is serious about working towards a peaceful solution to the problem of extremism, it might consider changing its own extremist policies first.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sabrina 1]

13. Don't thank me, if there is something 'Pollyanish'

about the US and Pakistan maintaining their close ties, talk to the US government about it.

[cosmicone]

14. Yes, such close ties that Pakistan keeps funding and

sheltering America's enemies and causing mayhem and terror around the world.

The drone attacks wouldn't have occurred and wouldn't occur if Pakistan had a) allowed US military to conduct operations in Waziristan or b) stopped funding the Taliban.

Wacky weaselly wascally Pakistan always wants it both ways. A tiny country armed to the teeth with military supported terrorists roaming everywhere. Whatever woes Pakistan may have are all self-inflicted. If Pakistan truly wants peace, it would give up its designs on Kashmir and other Indian territories, reduce the size of its military, make peace with India and focus on economic development.

Blaming drone attacks for Pakistan's behavior is utter BS.

[sabrina 1]

16. That's funny, the US military has praised Pakistan for its

cooperation with them in going after extremists. You must be thinking of somewhere else.

And in return for that cooperation the US has continued to kill innocent Pakistani civilians.

The US has angered an awful lot of people around the globe with its brutal policies and arrogant attitude towards other sovereign nations. Sooner or later the US will be forced to change its ways as more and more countries refuse to cooperate with them. And that will be a good thing.

Pakistan, like the US, has the right, believe it or not, to look out for its own interests. On the day when the US realizes that it is not the only sovereign nation in the world, the world will be a better place.

[cosmicone]

23. Yes, that praise was quite evident ...

The CIA Director stated that we wouldn't even give Pakistan any notification of the raid to kill Osama because we don't trust the Pakistanis.

[sabrina 1]

24. Yes, well what they say in public and what actually happens,

are often two different things. I see where Hillary Clinton has praised the Pakistanis also. Don't worry, the US has stated categorically that they need to continue their relationship with Pakistan, so don't expect anything to change any time soon. We have 'interests' as they say, in that part of the world.

[Turborama]

25. China, Pakistan's next door neighbor, would willingly take Pak. under their wing if we dropped them

Something India should be much more worried about.

[sabrina 1]

27. Yes, and I"m sure the US is aware of that also and will not allow

that to happen if they can help it.

But check out these links provided by Sufragette in another thread. If I am reading them correctly it seems that the US knew Bin Laden's whereabouts as far back as January of this year and that this guy, the accused murdered/CIA/Blackwater agent might have been part of the plan to get him. It seems they are saying that the plans to get Bin Laden were postponed until this guy was safely out of Pakistan. But if the plans were already in place in January, they must have known even earlier than that where Bin Laden was, and I find it very believable that the Pakistanis DID give them information on his compound.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1031564&mesg_id=1036845

I have to reread that section of the thread and the links she provided again to try to put the pieces together. I just read through them once, but we've been given the impression that this all happened fairly quickly. These links seem to say otherwise.

[Vehl]

29. China has already taken Pakistan under its wing

Its no secret. Why do you think India is stocking up for two front war in the event conflict happens in the future?
Btw the remains from the helicopter are probably already in Chinese hands.

[Turborama]

30. Let me spell it out for you more clearly, China would *openly fully* take Pakistan under its wing

The only thing that's stopping them doing that now is Pakistan's much more open diplomatic, military and financial relationship with America.

[Vehl]

31. It's "open" already for all that matters

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."



Pakistan is already in bed with China for all that matters. The reason they have a "relationship" going still with America is that they do not want to let go of a cash cow when the cow is more than willing to give them money. I mean...why would they? its free money! Not to mention the added benefit of passing along to China every single piece of American tech they receive.


btw check this out
Pakistan asks Afghanistan to distance itself from United States, Afghan officials say

KABUL — When Pakistan’s prime minister visited Kabul this month, he spoke grandly to the public of an enduring friendship between neighbors and his country’s commitment to help Afghans in the grinding war with the Taliban.

But in private meetings, Yousaf Raza Gillani and the leaders of Pakistan’s military and intelligence service offered a startling proposal for cooperation: The Afghan government should distance itself from the United States and seek new allies, particularly China, according to current and former Afghan officials with knowledge of the meeting.

more here
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/pakistan-asks-afghanistan-to-distance-itself-from-united-states-afghan-officials-say/2011/04/25/AFHHUmyE_story.html



on a related note
Did you read the recent post about the OBL raid on the Chinese state Media?

ISLAMABAD, May 2 (Xinhua) -- Pakistani Urdu TV channel Geo News quoted Pakistani intelligence officials as saying that the world's most wanted terrorist Osama Bin Laden was killed in a search operation launched by the Pakistani forces after a Pakistani army helicopter was shot down in the wee hours of Monday in Abbotabad, a mountainous town located some 60 kilometers north of Pakistan's capital city of Islamabad.

At about 1:20 a.m. local time a Pakistani helicopter was shot down by unknown people in the Sikandarabad area of Abbotabad. The Pakistani forces launched a search operation in the nearby area and encountered with a group of unknown armed people. A fire exchange followed between the two sides. :eyes:

When the fire exchange ended, the Pakistani forces arrested some Arab women and kids as well some other armed people who later confessed to the Pakistani forces they were with Osama Bin laden when the fire was exchanged and Bin Laden was killed in the firing.

Local media reported that after the dead body of Bin Laden was recovered, two U.S. helicopter flew to the site and carried away the dead body of Bin Laden. :eyes:

more here
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-05/02/c_13854920.htm

You have to give it to them...for coming up with such an awesome version of events in support of their Allies.

[Turborama]

32. No, it isn't. China is not a *fully open* ally with Pakistan. Yet.

And they can't be while America is so heavily involved with them, regardless of what sort of news reports Xinhua comes out with.

[Vehl]

33. I dont understand the obsession with "open" (fully or otherwise)

Does it have Any significance? Would it not be better if its NOT open?
pls extrapolate on why being "open" is actually worse than a 'hidden" Alliance (which imho is worse!)

PS: added more info to my previous post

[Turborama]

34. I can't communicate with you

You keep massively editing posts after I've replied, therefore completely changing what we already discussed. Also, I hate endless arguments because they are just way too time consuming. Therefore, you're going back on ignore - which I only took you off of out of curiosity to see who would disagree with the common sense post I made above.

If you think China isn't going to treat Pakistan as a protectorate (look it up) - which they certainly are not while Pakistan is our client state - if America cuts off all it's military, diplomatic and financial ties and that this isn't going to make India much more vulnerable then that's your prerogative.

Go on, have the last word. I won't know what it is, but have at it.



(Edited to change "they are" to "Pakistan is" for clarity here (there were two different "they"s at the time) : "which they certainly are not while Pakistan is our client state")

[Vehl]

35. one can take the horse to the water but cant make it drink

the only "edit" i made to my previous post was to add yet another news article (the one about Pakistan advising Afghanistan to drop America and side with China) it merely reinforced the point I was making already and in no way "changed" the subject, as you imply in your post.

If you keep on insisting that China is not in cahoots with Pakistan...and somehow Pakistan not "openly" declaring its alliance with China is good.(why would they!!!) then you are more than welcome to believe it. The only reason I posted here is to present facts and not to pander theories.

Pakistan did not "fully openly" declare itself to be an Ally of China(whatever that means!)
Happy ?

pls keep me in your ignore bin, I regret the time I wasted penning sensible replies to your post.

adios!

protectorate (look it up)

Gee, thank you kind sir, we colonials do not know English(or history) at all! thank heavens I had my pocket dictionary in my pocket :)

[OhioChick]

39. "You keep massively editing posts ..."

Holy shit, I thought it was only I that noticed! :rofl:

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vehl]

50. lol

The only "editing" I did was to add more evidence (in the form of cited sources) to the post.
My posts have factual statements backed up with cited sources. I fail to see a similar trend in the ones that try to doubt mine.

making a blanket statement like "you keep massively editing posts" conveniently failing to mention that the edits were to only "add" more information relevant to the discussion is disingenuous.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[closeupready]

43. +1. What you have just posted is an unquestionable fact.

nt

[closeupready]

42. Yes, he's thinking of the Pakistan depicted in the lying Bollywood propaganda films

that come out with great regularity. I find it hard to take his bizarre theories seriously anymore. I once had him on ignore, now I read his posts and laugh.

[Turborama]

44. With regards to your last sentence...

Likewise.

Also, I have never had you on ignore and when I read your posts I laugh, but the difference is I'm laughing with you, not at you.

We need a good :rofl: around here sometimes.

[closeupready]

46. Word, word, word.

:hi: :D

[Kingofalldems]

10. I love that story!----Pee Wee Herman

[Phx_Dem]

11. LOL. They played a pivotal role alright . . . in helping him hide for years.

[Bragi]

15. Wrong place

sorry.

[sofa king]

17. Yeah. Pivoting like a wind vane.

[Turborama]

22. Pakistan 'Told US About Osama Home In 2009'

10:28pm UK, Wednesday May 04, 2011
Alex Crawford, special correspondent, in Abbottabad

Pakistan government and intelligence services have insisted they shared key information about Osama bin Laden's compound up to two years ago with their American counterparts.

Although the intelligence agency ISI transferred information about the residence, it denies knowledge of bin Laden being there.

A senior ISI source told me they got information that the terror leader's wife and sons were living at the compound in Abbottabad in the north-west of Pakistan, six months ago.

He insisted they shared this information with the CIA.

"It is as a result of the information we shared that they got Osama bin Laden," he told me.

Full article and video report: http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Pakistan-We-Told-American-CIA-Of-Osama-Bin-Laden-Compound-In-Abbottabad-Two-Years-Ago/Article/201105115985105?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_2&lid=ARTICLE_15985105_Pakistan:_We_Told_American_CIA_Of_Osama_Bin_Laden_Compound_In_Abbottabad_Two_Years_Ago

[sabrina 1]

26. That corresponds with other information regarding the CIA

agent who was accused of murder in January of this year. Apparently according to some reports provided by DUer, Suffragette, the US was frantic to get that situation under control and delayed going after Bin Laden while he was in custody, fearful that it might jeapordize his safety. That seems to say that at least in January they already knew about the compound. And it's not inconceivable that the Pakistanis did inform the US about it. I tend to believe them now, having read a few of those articles regarding the accused murderer who was not only a CIA agent, which was kept secret until after his release, but who also worked for Blackwater and apparently was involved with the Special Forces unit that eventually got Osama Bin Laden. It's hard to believe that the Pakistanis would have known about the compound, and NOT informed the US about it.

[cosmicone]

37. Yes yes ... It is the CIA's fault that

they stuffed the envelope marked "URGENT -- OSAMA'S ADDRESS" in the top drawer and forgot about it.

[sabrina 1]

45. I think you didn't read the article thoroughly. They had suspicions

about the compound, they had heard that OBL's family might be living there, and they passed the info on to the US. Sounds very plausible to me. They did not say they knew OBL himself was there.

What we now know though, is that the CIA and Blackwater along with the Special Forces unit that supposedly carried out the Bin Laden killing, had been in Pakistan working on 'surveillance of militants'. Something they would not have admitted, had not one of their undercover guys managed to get himself arrested for murder.

His arrest led to the confirmation of the CIA/Blackwater/JSOC presence and possible alliance in Pakistan and that they were 'surveilling militants'. Other reports now say that they US held off this raid on the compound until their agent was safely out of the country. He was arrested in January.

I believe the Pakistanis did most likely report the compound to the US, that the presence of these orgs in the country was for the purpose of surveillance while they pieced together the other info they had, such as the courrier and that it may very well have taken more than a year to prepare for the 'mission'.

And, knowing how things go here, sooner or later someone will confirm that Pakistan DID provide the initial clues to the US and they will be publicly thanked for it.

Btw, the US has confirmed that their alliance with Pakistan will continue. That means, in order to get Congress (Repubs mostly) to continue the funding, Pakistan's role in getting Bin Laden WILL eventually be recognized.

So I wouldn't get too excited about the possibility of a US/Pakistan split. It's not going to happen.

[OhioChick]

41. Interestingly Enough....

I haven't heard anyone from within the White House threatening to take aid away from Pakistan.

Pakistan Can Still Count On U.S. Aid

http://www.businessinsider.com/pakistan-can-still-count-on-aid-from-the-us-2011-5

Furthermore, the White House briefings have been quite interesting. Some quotes:

WH's Carney on US-Pakistan relations: 'It's a complicated but important relationship. Pakistan is a key partner in fight against terrorism'

More from White House on Pakistan: 'You have to be careful about tarring everyone in the government'

I would assume the White House knows far more than we do, or ever will. The weeks ahead are sure to be interesting as more information comes out.

[frickaline]

38. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!!! *I* am the great and powerful Pakistan!