GIs lose status as super-warriors in Iraq (Daily Times - Pakistan)

[WillyT]

<snip>

BAGHDAD: A joke circulating in Baghdad says: “If you want to frighten an American soldier, shout ‘Fallujah’.”

The town where US troops have been blocked for seven days by insurgents fighting from street corners, rooftops and minarets — often using less than sophisticated weapons — has become a symbol of the changed attitude to the US-led occupation forces.

In one year, American GIs have fallen from the status of super-warriors to ordinary men in the eyes of Iraqis who have seen them fall victim to old rocket-launchers and home-made bombs.

A year ago, after the rapid collapse of Saddam Hussein’s regime and rout of his forces, the American army with its high-tech weaponry seemed invincible to many in the Iraqi capital.

<snip>

Link: http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_12-4-2004_pg7_55

Oh man... This is REALLY not good.

Things are spiraling out of control.

:scared:

[0007]

1. Wow!

:hurts:

[Eye and Monkey]

2. ``Our troops are taking care of business...It was a tough week last week."

``Our troops are taking care of business. Their job is to make Iraq more secure, so that a peaceful Iraq can emerge,'' Bush told reporters after the service. ``It was a tough week last week.''

Perhaps with 87 billion dollars and counting, BushCo could buy a clue.

Bring 'em home. Give it back. Impeach.

[BostonTeaParty04]

9. 87 billion PLUS 79 billion... people are forgetting....

Bush got 79 billion at the beginning... six months later he got another 87 billion............ 160 Billion plus......

[Jacobin]

3. Pride Goeth Before the Fall

[DS1]

4. If they didn't have selective fire rules in place

believe me, the Iraqis would be singing an entirely different tune.

It's easy to go against an enemy when they're all wearing the same uniforms.

[Eye and Monkey]

5. Perhaps the mercs in plainclothes are less easy to spot?

I think not.

[Gman]

6. I'm sure the British in their red coats said the same thing

in 1776.

[Tinoire]

7. !

:wow:

[daleo]

8. Indiscriminate targeting and superior firepower makes war easy

But it makes peace hard.

[bemildred]

10. That sort of thing has its drawbacks Sir,

when you are short of ammunition, with long supply lines,
huge logistics needs, bankrupt, and you are outnumbered 100
to one. The enemy may respond in kind if he gets the chance.
It is true we could do a Dresden on the place, but that isn't
the image we want to project now, is it? It is also worth
pointing out that it has been tried many times, I mention
Manchuria, Chechnya, the USSR in Afghanistan, and it
generally fails to suppress resistance. It is the wrong
tool for the job.

[nonbelief]

12. Yes, yes

You you sound like John Rambo in "First Blood, Part 2"

"Do we get to win this time?"

It's just too bad the rest of the world's watching too closely, despite U.S attempts to kill off non-American media.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

17. What?

Are you saying that if the US were allowed to commit war crimes, then the Iraqis would be "singing a different tune"? NOT having "selective fire rules" would constitute a war crime.

I'm so sorry your vaunted US army can't change military reality, but people like me have been saying this since before the war - fighting in an urban environment is very bloody, and NOTHING can change that.

No amount of tanks or bombers can make it easy to invade a city, and the attacking side will ALWAYS suffer high losses. That is just the nature of the beast.

[DS1]

20. I'm merely responding to the claim

that if you want to scare and American GI yell Fallujah. The only thing keeping Fallujah above a state of rubble is the civilians. In a city with no fire discipline the myth of the US supersoldat would be firmly realized.

That's all, I'm not condoning that approach, just answered some little shit-talker that got in the paper.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tkmorris]

18. Yeah and your point is........?

The facts are that they aren't all wearing the same uniform. No reason to expect them to be; they aren't members of an army. Not a terribly official one anyway.

Believe it or not this isn't some kind of football game to see who has the better team when the field is neutral. This is war, and it isn't being played by our rules. This is unfortunate but was eminently predictable.

[DS1]

30. What? No illegal players on the field? This isn't football?

Sheesh, now they tell me.

All I did was respond to this joke about scaring Americans with the word Falluja, it's only the U.S.'s intent to try kill as few innocents as possible that's keeping that little joke alive. When these people run into crowds of their countrymen to avoid being shot the blood of the women and children is on their hands too.

[Zynx]

23. However, when's the last time the US fought a real modern army?

The Gulf War doesn't count because Iraq's army was not up to date entirely and was not well led at all. While some of its equipment was modern, much was not and they rarely knew how to use it well.

I'm talking about us fighting a country that has everything from airplanes to tanks that can roughly match ours like Russia, China, Germany, or even France and also knows how to use them.

[0007]

25. huh? Can't believe I'm hearing this from you!

[Fovea]

11. So much for shock and awe.

Invasion and occupation are two entirely different matters, but the PNAC gallery was only prepared to do one of them. Guess which one.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

13. "old rocket-launchers"?!? What BS. They are armed well

with the latest in RPG's. And any booby trap is deadly no matter how crudely fashioned.
and they would go after us regardless because we have overstayed the welcome.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

14. Hmm. The movie 'The Alamo' is about to be released. Reviews...hmm. n/t

[Eye and Monkey]

16. 'Alamo' Forgettable (Reuters review in NYT)

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/news/news-leisure-boxoffice.html

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - In the Easter holiday box office battle of gritty epics, Mel Gibson's biblical blockbuster ``The Passion of the Christ'' routed Walt Disney Co.'s costly retelling of ``The Alamo.''

According to studio estimates issued on Sunday, ``Passion'' sold $17.1 million worth of tickets across North America in the three days beginning on Friday. Now in its seventh weekend of release, the film jumped four places.

Last weekend's champion, the comic-book adaptation ``Hellboy,'' slipped to No. 2 with $11.1 million, while ``The Alamo'' vied for the No. 3 spot with fellow rookie ``Johnson Family Vacation,'' both reporting $9.2 million.

``The Alamo,'' revolving around the ill-fated defense of the Texas fort, had been viewed as a contender for the top spot. Budgeted at about $100 million, its failure comes at a bad time for Disney, whose travails include an unsolicited offer by Comcast Corp., criticism of its CEO, Michael Eisner, and executive upheaval at its struggling ABC network.

At least it did not have the bad news to itself

[Devils Advocate NZ]

15. Is now the appropriate time to say "I told you so?

I remember having arguments before the war with people here on DU about the dangers of urban warfare. Although there were others agreeing, there were many who were saying the US' overwhelming firepower would make things different for the US.

Well, I and many others told them, and they refused to listen. Now it is happening. All the firepower in the world is all but useless against determined men armed with light weapons in an urban environment.

The only thing that wins urban battles is the blood of its combatants - 59 US soldiers in the last week alone, not to mantion many hundreds of Iraqis.

Can you image what the war would have been like if the Iraqi Army hadn't been bribed into abandoning their positions in and around Baghdad?

[Voltaire99]

21. Yes, it is!

The centrist-liberal wing of the war party is looking even sillier now.

Not only did they echo the claptrap of the right (war over in a week, US to be conquering heroes, etc) while ignoring the morality of invasion.

They've left the Democratic Party in a position where it can't effectively lead on Iraq: it can hardly back withdrawal while it's trying so hard to outflank Bush on defense.

Stuck with a failed foreign policy backed by both parties, the nation can only hope that better leaders emerge.

[teryang]

22. They were bribed to do what they intended

...to do anyway. They evaporated into the population. They are still present as a looming threat.

The key to the American failure:

<“American soldiers have shown themselves incapable of ending insecurity here and have lost the respect of part of the population,” added Shamsi al-Zahawi, aged 70.>

This is the key to control of Iraq. Always has been.

[0007]

26. Please do!

[schultzee]

19. Bush misused our military and this is the result. Wars should be for

a good reason.

[yelladawg]

27. The troops are good

It's the leaders that suck

[PATRICK]

29. Disaster as predicted

They are definitely maximizing one of the worst effects of invading Iraq in the first place. Letting people make mincemeat out of heretofore shockingly invincible troups. THAT was supposed to be the factor to dismay and cave all the Middle east into turning a new leaf and by the madness of contradiction they have absurdly exposed the entire West in a war of liberation on their home ground on their terms.

Not Vietnam? The idiocy of the planners is the constant. The terminology is. "Iraqification"- what a joke- as if we would ever trust the Iraqi police like we did the South Vietnamese army or the montagnards(subsequently abandoned). As if anyone had a violent solution for the Middle East that ever worked. As if fighting a war against constant insurrection would breed democracy. As if our army was limitless in power, numbers, resolve(in a false mission),despite the worst or rudderless leadership which has exposed them to inevitable attrition.

A "test of will" indeed. So long as Bush is personally safe he will stay the course. What a tough guy. What a visionary. What an idealist.

Or we had plans all right. Plans not to be opposed. Plans to hand over the dirty work to submissive allies and mercenaries. Plans to jump our troops to the the next glory conquest(where there is oil there is the new American Empire awaiting). Plans to blame everyone else when anything goes wrong(that somehow manages to be reported).
Plans to enrich the political and economic fortunes of the BFEE(if no one else).

What was certain in the real world though was that we would teach young Arabs how to kill our soldiers while fighting for their freedom.

[fedsron2us]

31. Yep. The "blowback" from this fiasco will last for years.

Once the Arab world realises the West is far from invincible they will come looking for some serious revenge.

[DoYouEverWonder]

28. You know Iraq is really not like Vietnam

it is actually closer to the Russian War with Afghanistan.

Vietnam did not bring down an Empire, Iraq will.