Venezuela: US fomenting violence in Libya

[joshcryer]

Source: Associated Press

CARACAS, Venezuela – Venezuela's top diplomat on Thursday echoed Fidel Castro's accusation that Washington is fomenting unrest in Libya to justify an invasion to seize North African nation's oil reserves.

Foreign Minister Nicolas Maduro claimed the United States is trying to create a movement inside Libya aimed at toppling Moammar Gadhafi.

Maduro did not condemn or defend the violent crackdown on Libyans participating in the popular uprising against Gadhafi's long rule.

---

In a Twitter message Thursday, Venezuela's leftist president said: "Viva Libya and its independence! Gadhafi is facing a civil war."

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110225/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_libya_latin_american_allies

[defendandprotect]

1. This is strictly the Libyan people in revolt against the dictator, Gaddafi -- -

however, I have no doubt that the US/CIA will be looking for opportunities in

their imperialistic interests -- and trust the Libyan people know that and want no

part of US intervention in their country!!

[joshcryer]

3. I agree, I do not believe Gaddafi is facing a civil war, I believe he is facing an uprising.

These are two distinct situations here.

[defendandprotect]

4. It certainly isn't a civil war -- and besides Gaddafi is trying to deny anything going on!!

[joshcryer]

5. Gaddafi is actually trying to play up the civil war line, to marginalize the United Libya.

This of course is not going to work because he's outnumbered 5 to 1 with Libyans and about 2-3 to 1 with total bodies if you include mercenaries. But mercenaries tend to tuck tail and run when the money stops flowing, and Gaddafi's assets are being frozen, and he's basically surrounded in Tripoli. It's only a matter of time. A very short matter of time.

This will be the shortest lived civil war in history.

[defendandprotect]

12. Gaddafi continues to use lies/propaganda ... but no civil war, only huge uprising by Libyans..!!

Gaddafi has behaved brutally towards his citizens --

continued fear that he might use chemical weapons --

Let's hope he steps down before he does any more damage to his citizens --

2,000 or more dead and probably 5 or 6 time that wounded.

[joshcryer]

13. I was ashamed when I saw some fellow DUers believing the propaganda.

There is video of them covering up the massacres.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

2. Oh oh

I'll get the popcorn ready for when the Chavanistas roll in.

[sasha031]

6. this story is so foolish,

Oh! and a twitter message from a leftist president! Yahoo

[snagglepuss]

7. I've been having doubts about Chavez but his supporting this detestable

a**hole has confirmed my doubts about him.

[defendandprotect]

14. Think what Chavez is saying is our CIA is not to be trusted ... !! And who would trust them??

[joshcryer]

19. You are in a violent revolt. Someone says "here are weapons."

What do you do?

That's how the CIA works.

[defendandprotect]

24. No --- if you've paid any attention to these uprisings, they are non-violent ....

only after the armies have come over to the side of the people, did those

armies protect them from attacks upon them by protecting the cities that have

already been taken.

Believe me, Egyptians, Tunisians, Libyans are much more intelligently informed

and aware of our CIA than Americans are!!

[joshcryer]

26. The Libyan uprising started as non-violent, but violence was necessitated...

...once Gaddafi started shooting on unarmed protesters.

There are videos of civilians driving tanks around, carrying weapons around, and distributing those weapons.

You cannot overthrow a tyrant without having control of army and military.

I think you are painting a very negative view of the Libyan protesters, as if it is wrong to defend yourself when a tyrant kills you, as if you must rely on an army.

You'll note that the first mercenaries were captured by the protesters, and killed. There is a very famous video of a guy with a bullet through the face and bullet holes in his chest, and they show his passport. He was killed by the protesters not the armies.

In any event I don't think that the CIA has involved itself with arms.

[defendandprotect]

28. Libyan uprising has remained non-violent --

Granted, people fought back against the mercenaries -- without arms.

Read something of the retweets on that. Towns subdued the mercenaries without arms.

When weapons were taken, they were turned over to various organized civilians to protect

certain areas --


You cannot overthrow a tyrant without having control of army and military.

Yes you can -- they have done it -- AGAIN, as the Egyptiuans did it -- by having the military

move to their side!

I think you are painting a very negative view of the Libyan protesters, as if it is wrong to defend yourself when a tyrant kills you, as if you must rely on an army.

I am certainly NOT doing any such thing --

However, I think you misunderstand the nature and spirit of non-violence -- and the power

of it!

You have a quite confused idea of it all -- I'd suggest you read the actual retweets in the

OPs Catherina runs on the Revolution in Libya!

You'll note that the first mercenaries were captured by the protesters, and killed. There is a very famous video of a guy with a bullet through the face and bullet holes in his chest, and they show his passport. He was killed by the protesters not the armies.

Agree -- of the first one or two mercenaries, they were killed. HOWEVER, since then they have

been handing them over to be held. Just as the Egyptians did.

In any event I don't think that the CIA has involved itself with arms.

Again, if the CIA were "arming" anyone, it would be the dictators!! Same as always!!

Most of our world leaders are simply Global Gun Runners!!

[joshcryer]

33. Please see post #32 to understand where I'm coming from.

[snagglepuss]

50. I don't trust the CIA but why do you accept the idea that the US wants Gadaffi

out?

[defendandprotect]

76. You're confused on my positions ... Don't trust CIA and don't necessarily think

US wants Gaddafi out -- at least not brought down this way by the people --

with people in control of their nation's natural resources -- oil.

PLUS -- US government is doing even more Global gun-running than UK and France, etal --

the for-profit MIC!

They don't want that to end --

As we see in Libya -- these weapons are a huge impediment to the freedom of the people --

something Americans should be thinking about re our own MIC!!


Also remember, that at this moment the only way to run armies -- i.e., Imperialism --

is with OIL. OIL is therefore a national security issue -- i.e, Obama/BP.

[joshcryer]

118. Venezuala: US behind violence in Libya. Violence in Libya, protestors. Protesters want Gaddafi out.

If the US is behind the violence, and the violence is because of the protesters, and the protesters want Gaddafi out, then the US wants Gaddafi out. Simple. (edit: this is what VENEZUELA is saying not me! the US was happy with Gaddafi after relations were normalized)

Venezuela thinks the US is backing the protesters. It's fucked up.

[bhikkhu]

8. The actual statement (in spanish) is ambiguous

yahoo paraphrases it in a poor translation. In the original I'm not actually sure what he's getting at.

on edit - looking at the whole article again I have to say: beware articles citing their own versions of event, which rely on translated material where you don't get to see the original. Its hard enough to get the intentions behind things said in our own language when the context is withheld; and there is a long history of our media screwing up translated material and ignoring context, for the sake of a lead-story that grabs attention.

[joshcryer]

11. The last phrase is not ambigious, it's directly translated to English even:

Kadafi enfrenta una guerra civil!

Gaddafi faces a war civil!

The phrase about independence of course is ambiguous, it can be seen either way. But in light of the "right wing influence" I think the context is clear. He's talking about "Gaddafi's Libya." But he can deny that. He can't deny that he's ignoring that Libya is undergoing an uprising and not a civil war.

[bhikkhu]

31. Fine points of definition...

does the use of "civil war" instead of "uprising" really mean that much, in an otherwise straightforward statement of fact? I'm not sure of the significance of the two words in Venezuela, or whether the linguistic choices available to Chavez had an offering with the sense of what signifies "uprising" in English, which could have then been passed over as a slight against the Libyan efforts. You see what I mean about the difficulties of translation. Were it spoken aloud, tone of voice could have told all, or bent the statement toward any number of meanings, but we don't have that luxury.

I'm more prone (in our text-ridden world) to simple literalism when looking for the meanings of writing. A statement of fact is sometimes just a statement of fact; nuances translate poorly and are as likely to be in the mind of the reader as in the mind of the writer.

[joshcryer]

35. In this case it's actually not ambiguous, there's no nuance.

Gaddafi has also been using the "civil war" meme. By mentioning "Gaddafi's civil war" Chavez is only perpetuating the meme that it is a civil war and not an uprising.

But really the entire context tells the story.

Chavez wrote on Twitter: "Canciller Nicolás: (Ven. Foreign Minister) Teach the far right yankee lovers! Long live Libya and its Independence! Gaddafi is facing a civil war!"

He wrote this after Nicolas claimed, "Libya is having difficulties which should not be handled with information from imperialist news agencies": http://www.correodelorinoco.gob.ve/debate-parlamentario/canciller-nicolas-maduro-abogamos-por-paz-y-unidad-libia

I don't know how to make it clearer than this.

[bhikkhu]

44. Thanks for the link.

I'll defer to expertise. And reading of Nicolas's statements, who Chavez directs the twitter to, he does seem to be supporting Libya. It is a shame...

[social_critic]

38. I live in Venezuela, I am a native Spanish speaker, and I say Chavez is backing Kaddafi

All the statements coming out of Castro, Ortega, and Chavez are clearly supportive of Kaddafi. They are supporting Kaddafi because they don't have a problem when the people are shot, killed, or machine gunned to sustain a dictatorship. But all three of them are known to be autocrats and/or outright tyrants. These guys pal around with each other, and they are in tight with Kaddafi.

Which reminds me, Osama bin Laden just issued a statement backing the resistance, and calling on all Muslims to fight Kaddafi AND THOSE WHO SUPPORT HIM. I'm worried we may see something happen in Caracas if al Qaida decides Chavez is their enemy.

[bitchkitty]

53. I have a suggestion -

Change your screen name to ILiveInVenezuela. Then everyone will be sure to remember.

[social_critic]

97. Hey, that's a nice idea!!

I'll do it when I start posting in a new blog. But right now I'd rather keep this one here. I'm sure by now everybody knows I live in Venezuela, and Chavez is an autocrat. :hi:

[defendandprotect]

77. At least two people now have pointed out that it is "ambiguous" --

including what has come via twitter --

certainly Chavez isn't posting on twitter -- 200 or so people may be posting

comments via his account/name -- that's all.

[11cents]

9. A year or two ago Chavez equated Gaddafi with Simon Bolivar

No doubt he was maliciously mistranslated. And all the footage and stories about the long-running close relationship between Gaddafi and Chavez were fakes and lies.

Lots of powerful people have some explaining to do about their relationship with Gaddafi. Some are conservative and live in DC or London or Rome; some are quasi-leftist clowns and live in places like Caracas and Harare.

Being involved in politics means making ethical demands on yourself as well as others; that means facing facts and not just rooting for a designated "good guy" like a sports fan.

[totodeinhere]

10. Can we get a comment from some of the Chavez defenders at DU?

I am not trying to be snarky. I am interested in what your take on this might be.

[defendandprotect]

15. imo, I'd trust Castro and Chavez before I'd trust our CIA -- !! That's for sure!!

[sasha031]

16. ditto

[joshcryer]

18. I think the CIA is probably on the ground there, and may even be helping with arms.

We do like to give arms out to any rebellious group. Even if there's evidence of that I don't think it should taint the overall actions of the Libyans. They've had to sacrifice a lot, they're the ones doing the uprising, not the CIA.

[defendandprotect]

21. And who are the CIA arming . . . mercenaries? Some suspicion of that ... !!

Also some question about the calling in of these mercenaries from African nations --

who's paying -- etal. $2,000 a day -- $12,000 to $30,000 per mercenary.

Would Blackwater pass that up?

Actually, Blackwater Xe has been sighted -- evidently they're there officially protecting

oil executives!

[joshcryer]

23. Maybe but I don't think so.

If the CIA is doing it it'd be really retarded. They like to play behind the scenes so if they do it it might be to force the uprising forward. Say things slow down in the next few days, and some mercs go and attack innocent civilians, there is an argument to be made. I think the CIA is more likely to arm the resistance like they armed the Taliban.

However, it's not really be necessary to arm them (no doubt the CIA is there but I don't think there is evidence of anyone being armed). The United Libya has 40k military men on their side. Gaddafi has 5k loyal military and as many as 30k mercenaries.

[defendandprotect]

25. CIA is "retarded" in a fascist sense --

No one is "arming" the Libyans -- they have been non-violent --

You think CIA would be trying to foster the Libyan people's revolt?

Wow -- that would be a first -- what would give you that idea? :rofl:


If the CIA is doing it it'd be really retarded. They like to play behind the scenes so if they do it it might be to force the uprising forward. Say things slow down in the next few days, and some mercs go and attack innocent civilians, there is an argument to be made. I think the CIA is more likely to arm the resistance like they armed the Taliban.

:blush: :eyes:

[joshcryer]

27. I didn't say that they were arming anyone, I said "may."

I personally do not think that the CIA is involved in any material way. But I did say that it's possible if the uprising slows down they cause a conflict by attacking the protesters. Then on the other hand they could provide arms.

The CIA plays both sides so I don't know why you are mocking me.

[defendandprotect]

29. The CIA plays one side ... the fascist side -- the Dictator side ....

"may" .... ?

Come on!

[joshcryer]

32. Please understand I am not arguing that.

Here's the "imperialist forces" meme:

CIA arms armies that are defending the protesters, they fight against "sovereign country," (Gaddafi) "sovereign country" fights back. (This is Venezuela's view, and it is legitimate, though there is no evidence this is happening.)

CIA arms dictators or psyops groups (mercs), dictators or psyops groups kill protesters, protesters fight back. (This is what you are saying is happening.)

Both are valid views, but I agree with you that the latter view is more likely. Venezuela is full of shit when they say that the US is causing the violence. Gaddafi has already stated that he was out for blood.

[defendandprotect]

54. If you are arguing in any way that CIA is ever NOT on the fascist side ....

then I totally disagree with you -- that's what I'm saying.

And certainly CIA has been involved often in trying to knock out Chavez in Venezuela.

[joshcryer]

63. Not at all.

Venezuela is saying that the protesters are the fascists!

[defendandprotect]

75. You're saying that's what Venezuela is saying ....

think I'll wait and see what is actually being said --

[social_critic]

98. if you speak Spanish just look up "Chavez Kaddafi Youtube"

And also "Maduro Kaddafi Youtube", and you'll get to see them defending Kaddafi. If you don't speak Spanish, then you do have a handicap becoming a Chavez expert. Those of us who do speak Spanish can watch them on TV, listen to them in person, talk to people in Venezuela, read the local news, and so on. When you get inside like we are, it's a whole different story. Chavez is indeed a big Kaddafi admirer.

[social_critic]

39. Nobody is talking CIA here, my friend

This is the Lybian people versus Kaddafi. And Kaddafi is being supported by Castro, Chavez, and Ortega. Case closed.

[creeksneakers2]

17. This reflects very poorly on Mr. Chavez

[social_critic]

40. Yes it does, Chavez is showing his colors to the world

I live in Venezuela, and get to see his thugish anti democratic behavior all the time. We have a lot of human rights abuses going on, and the Chavez regime is really corrupt. But many of you don't understand its true nature. This is giving you a glimpse: Chavez is a neo-fascist kleptocrat, he thrives in personality worship, and can be considered to be mentally ill.

[RedCloud]

95. Estas mamando gallo. Actually Venezuela and Libya partners for 40 yrs.

But don't let that stop you from eating arepas.

[social_critic]

99. I eat arepas,

My favorite arepas are my own private trademark. They're so special, I can't even describe them to you here, because these guys may find out who I am, and I'm about to diddy out of Venezuela real soon. And Venezuela is getting mighty repressive, they may decide to take away my conical hat I use to read their minds and write my blogs.

But Venezuela and Lybia weren't really partners for 40 years. The close relationship began when Chavez realized he and Kaddafi were soulmates. This is why Chavez went to Lybia five times, and he's defending Kaddafi now.

[dixiegrrrrl]

20. There was this reported earlier today:

Official: U.S. military options for Libya being planned

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x502665

and then this:

Former Libyan Justice Minister says Gadaffi has Chemical, Biological weapons

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4747576

[Throd]

30. Not this time. Khaddafi is just a violent, crazy dick.

In case it wasn't obvious before.

[Waiting For Everyman]

34. An empty assertion with no facts or reasons, and a stupid one at that.

I think it's insulting to the protesters who are risking their lives and being killed by his "friend" right now, to try to de-legitimize their cause. And while they're under fire is not the time to be using their struggle to push his own agenda where it's very misplaced.

Big fail - especially on behalf of a bloodthirsty fruitcake like Quaddafi.

He's only undercutting his own credibility.

[reorg]

36. I'd like to see that "assertion" in direct quotes

Trying to find articles in Spanish I came up with nothing so far. Maduro criticizes the media, but doesn't say "Washington is fomenting unrest in Libya" or is "trying to create a movement inside Libya".

Instead, he states that the first steps have been taken for the eastern region to secede from Libya (fact) so as to wrest that oil-rich part of the country away from an OPEC nation.

"“en Libia se han dado los primeros pasos de secesión y división”... advirtió que el país árabe sufre también los “primeros pasos de un proceso de guerra civil, para sacarle el oriente petrolero a una nación de la OPEP”."

http://laradiodelsur.com/?p=12464
http://informe21.com/~mgessen/muamar-al-gadafi/venezuela-aboga-paz-libia-defendiendo-muamar-al-gadafi

[joshcryer]

37. I *think* he's referring to Chavez' tweet.

[reorg]

41. Chavez probably remembers

how a civil war in Yugoslavia was turned into a cause for NATO to intervene.

[joshcryer]

42. Let's hope the Libyan people get it done before NATO decides to.

I think they will.

[defendandprotect]

78. At this time, reports of special US, UK, France "special forces" entering Libya ....

let's see if they're there to take their weapons back and relieve the Libyan

people of this huge burden of a heavily-militarized Gaddafi!!

[maddezmom]

83. I kind of doubt those reports as they are unsourced and no one else in any media

online, msm, arab....is reporting the same.

[defendandprotect]

85. We'll see -- but US, UK, France = Global Gun Runners ... and have armed Gaddafi --

that's quite clear -- !!

[maddezmom]

86. sure, but there is a big difference between what you posted and what

the Pak Tribune is saying. :)

[defendandprotect]

87. We don't know yet -- my MAIN POINT WAS US IS A GLOBAL GUN RUNNER ... !!!

AND ARMED GADDAFI -- !!

:)

[maddezmom]

88. I get that point and agree the US and many others armed him. However, I don't agree

with you that this uprising was a planned CIA or US or western plot to get the oil. Sorry, but imo it is an insult to all the protesters, many who have lost lives in their desire to get rid of Gaddafi. Just because it's happened in the past doesn't mean it's happening now.

[defendandprotect]

90. Only YOU are saying anything like that --

with you that this uprising was a planned CIA or US or western plot to get the oil. Sorry, but imo it is an insult to all the protesters, many who have lost lives in their desire to get rid of Gaddafi. Just because it's happened in the past doesn't mean it's happening now.

I HAVE SAID N O T H I N G OF THE KIND IN REGARD TO THE PROTESTERS!!!

*********************************************************************

So, kindly stop trying to distort what my posts have said.



Meanwhile, re Chavez, as many have pointed out the alleged message is "ambiguous."

And there is only SPECULATION on what he might have actually meant --



PS: Here's a recent post of mine, if you missed it --


defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Thu Feb-24-11 10:45 PM

Response to Original message

This is strictly the Libyan people in revolt against the dictator, Gaddafi -- -

however, I have no doubt that the US/CIA will be looking for opportunities in

their imperialistic interests -- and trust the Libyan people know that and want no

part of US intervention in their country!!


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4747707

[maddezmom]

92. actually, there are many comments on this thread about the CIA

none of them are mine. We'll have to agree to disagree here. :hi:

[defendandprotect]

94. They were posters SPECULATING on what Chavez might have meant ....

Bye --

:hi:

[social_critic]

100. Well, I'm not speculating. I heard it myself.

And I'm referring to Maduro's speech to the National Assembly, and the stuff they put on Telesur, and La Hojilla, and so on. The Miraflores crowd, Castro, and Ortega are all supporting Chavez, and they're trying to make the rebellion against the Lybian dictator look like it's Osama or some sort of CIA plot.

[nalnn]

43. I for one

I for one would be glad to hear the we were helping the Libyan's overthrow 'The Colonel'. So far, I haven't heard of us doing anything to help.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

45. How can we help?

Our army is stretched a little thin, right now, what with two wars and other obligations. Plus, there's no guarantee that Qaddafi's replacement will be any better. Maybe worse.

I think the best thing to do is get our citizens out.

:popcorn:

[nalnn]

48. Well...

Initially I was responding to the Chavez remarks.

So far, all I have heard from the U.S. administration (granted I haven't been glued to the TV so I may have missed something) is Secretary Clinton saying, "Get out of Libya".

What could we do? Lots of things. As far as militarily we don't have to supply the bulk of any armed force going down there. I heard earlier today Germany(!) was sending some warships. With as much surveillance that I am certain we have over and in Libya, we could drop supplies, leaflets, etc.

I don't know if there is anything like Voice of America there but that could prove very effective as well. Qaddafi may be jamming satellite/radio signals, but we've often gotten around that in the past quite easily.

I would say we could be giving more vocal support to the Libyans on the international stage than we are right now also. More than we did in Egypt that's for sure. I can't help but feel that the administration (or somebody) is afraid of upsetting some of the 'stable dictators' (to quote Chomsky) by voicing support for Qaddafi's ouster.

And yes, the next leader(s) of Libya could be just as bad, even worse, but I think the Libyans deserve a chance to find out after 40+ years of this 'Mad Dog', and IMO we should help.

[Imajika]

46. Chavez considers the worlds most detestable tyrants his "brothers"

Chavez makes common cause with many of the nastiest thugs in the world. In fact, I do believe Chavez also counts Robert Mugabe and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as his "brothers".

Where has the DU Chavez Cheerleaders been on this? Any problem with Chavez' direct support of Gadhafi? Or is it all a mistranslation?

[L. Coyote]

56. Actually, he didn't like Bush.

[naaman fletcher]

58. Even Worse,

is the guy who runs Belarus. He too is a friend of Chavez.

[FLPanhandle]

47. Chavez has long ago "jumped the shark"

Only the naive fail to see through his act now.

[msanthrope]

49. Sweating, Hugo???? n/t

[Forkboy]

57. I doubt it.

[Imagevision]

51. Oh gimme a break! - like Texaco and Chevron don't really want Kahdafi outta there - get real !

[social_critic]

69. Realistically, Chevron and Texaco merged, they are the same company

I take it you think American multinationals want Kaddafi out of power. Why would they want this? Private corporations are getting business in Lybia with Kaddafi in power. Oil companies prefer stability. A dictator who has been around for 40 years is fairly stable, so Kaddafi was OK for big oil. I assume you didn't hear about the release of the Lockerbie bomber to help BP get a big contract in Lybia? Tsk tsk.

[defendandprotect]

79. Of course they'd like to see the Libyan people controlling their own oil -- !!!

Of course -- !!


:evilgrin:

[social_critic]

101. The Lybian people do control their own oil now, the rebels took the oil fields

al Jazeera is reporting this afternoon that rebels have already taken most of the oil production fields and the main plants. So it looks like, after being controlled by the dictator Kaddafi, the Lybian people do control their oil.

Regarding the Chevron comment, it seems to me the person making it doesn't know much about how the international oil industry works, or how it was working in Lybia. I do. If you want a seminar, just say so and I shall teach you.

[Imagevision]

52. Perhaps Chevron can rehire Condi Rice and appoint her the Libya dictator

[L. Coyote]

55. What a poorly written article, not entirely reflective of the truth.

Where is the original quote that purports to have been said? Anyone?

[maddezmom]

61. here is a bit more

Separately, Nicolas Maduro, the Venezuelan foreign minister, told the National Assembly that Venezuela "repudiates the violence" in Libya, but said the conflict merits "objective" study.

"Conditions are being created to justify an invasion of Libya, and the central objective of that invasion ... is to take away Libya's oil," Maduro said.

Western governments have demanded punishment for abuses in Libya - but "why don't they ask for the same punishment for those who bomb innocent civilians every day in Iraq or Afghanistan?" he asked. "They are just as murderous."

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2011/02/20112257594678917.html

[L. Coyote]

64. Thank you. Interesting which parts the article ignored, and what they added

that wasn't really there. Somehow, I can't call lies spin!

[joshcryer]

67. Which article ignored and added?

Al Jazeera mentioned Ortega, AP did not. AP said that Maduro neither did or didn't condemn the violence, Al Jazeera just quoted Maduro. They both say that US wants to invade Libya for oil. Al Jazeera quotes him talking about how the US is "just as murderous" AP neglects it.

Otherwise they're close to one another (though they have entirely different headlines).

[defendandprotect]

80. Somewhat clearer --

[upi402]

59. I used to support Chavez

I kept trying to believe he was still victimized as in "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised".
But he has lost the plot.
He is just another tinpot dicktater.

I tend to be too loyal, for too long. I can see Obama's betrayals because I'm here. But with scant international news here, from a media I have lost faith in - I had no way to sort which internet sources on Chavez were valid or not.

Chavez didn't condemn Gadhaffi's killing publicly, and so has kissed the same devil that scented the podium Bush left for him not so long ago.

[social_critic]

70. I live in Venezuela, but I never supported Chavez

When I live in a foreign country, I try not to get too involved in local politics, to avoid hassles. But it was evident Chavez was more of a narcisistic autocrat than anything else, from the beginning.

It was very interesting to see him lie, and concentrate power until he felt secure enough to reveal his true nature. He's also a bit insane, I've heard some compare him to Emperor Caligula.

[ReggieVeggie]

119. so, you approved of the right-wing dictator Venezuela used to have?

[goforit]

60. The US truly has problems, but to hate the US so much is CRAZY

This is not US instigated.
Chavez's intense hatred and paranoia will eat him alive.

[Judi Lynn]

62. Do you imagine Hugo Chavez may have instigated this angry mob around Richard Nixon

during his visit to Caracas, in 1959? Chavez would have been around four years old.

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org.nyud.net:8090/us-relations/nixon-caracas2.jpg

http://www.corbisimages.com.nyud.net:8090/images/67/CAB86904-59DF-4482-9F7A-025B02901677/BE032271.jpg

http://www.peacebuttons.info.nyud.net:8090/IMAGES/0513.1968_Mob-Nixon-limo.jpg

"Caracas demonstrators surround Nixon's limousine

May 13, 1958

During a goodwill trip through Latin America, Vice President Richard Nixon's limousine was attacked with rocks
and bottles by an angry crowd and nearly overturned while traveling through Caracas, Venezuela. The crowd
was angered by U.S. Cold War policies and their effect on Latin America. Five days earlier in the trip, the Vice
President had been shoved, stoned, booed, and spat upon by protesters in Peru."

[L. Coyote]

74. Finally, we have identified the dude who spit on Tricky Dick

Whew, mystery solved :rofl:

[Judi Lynn]

112. Yep. If he's still alive, we may have just enough time to get him to Guantanamo!

It's what Teabagger Jesus would do!

http://lh5.ggpht.com.nyud.net:8090/_CqtZ6YfaifQ/S1jE0019NcI/AAAAAAAADV0/CuflmRg5M28/Teabagger_TownHall.jpg http://www.pensitoreview.com.nyud.net:8090/Wordpress/wp-content/themes/mimbo2.2/images/photo-tepra-bagging-for-jesus.jpg http://www.indecisionforever.com.nyud.net:8090/files/2010/04/teapartyjesus1.jpg

[social_critic]

103. No

Chavez is a fascist. He uses anti US merengue to try to distract the people. Today I heard a 10 year old Venezuelan boy discuss in such a coherent way why the electricity system in Venezuela is a mess, I realized Chavez is a goner eventually, because even the little kids realize he's a bum destroying the country's infrastructure.

[L. Coyote]

65. Chavez is a realist, and knows personally how the US acts in Latin America. Sadly,

most Americans are totally clueless about why Chavez has the posture he has towards the US.

Just a little taste, post-colonization by Europeans:

President Taft, 1912: "The day is not far distant when three Stars & Stripes at three equidistant points will mark our territory: one at the North Pole, another at the Panama Canal and the third at the South Pole. The whole hemisphere will be ours in fact as, by virtue of our superiority of race, it already is ours morally."

Some political perspective of the USA shared by Hondurans, Hugo Chavez and everyone else south of the border:

1847 **** US annexes over half of Mexico.

1855 **** William Walker, operating on behalf of bankers
Morgan & Garrison, invades Nicaragua and proclaims himself President.
During his two year rule, Walker also invaded neighbouring El Salvador
and Honduras (proclaiming himself head of state in each of these countries
also). Walker restored slavery in areas under his occupation.

1898 **** The US declares war on Spain and annexes
Guam, Puerto Rico, the Philippines and Hawaii. US forces also occupied
Cuba, another former Spanish colony, after the war.

1905 **** US President Theodore Roosevelt declares
the United States to be "the policeman" of the Caribbean;
the Dominican Republic (then part of Hispaniola) is then found to have
committed an offence and is placed under a "customs receivership".

1912 **** U.S. marines invade Nicaragua, beginning
an occupation that was to last almost continuously until 1933.

[joshcryer]

66. Better link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions

Doesn't justify Chavez siding with Gaddafi when we know the protesters were massacred in the famous video of a dozen protesters falling down dead, followed by dozens of more other reports.

edit: Go watch Saif's interview. The propaganda is strong with that one.

[social_critic]

71. Chavez' "anti imperialism" is fascist posturing - he needs an outside enemy

Chavez is more of a fascist than anything else. His main gig is Chavez, keeping Chavez in power, and making sure the Chavez family and close associates get filthy rich and live the life of Riley. The whole litany about US imperialism is mere blah blah blah. It bores me.

[L. Coyote]

73. OMG. When did nationalizing corporations become fascism. Way to throw slurs

without even thinking about the meaning of the word.

[defendandprotect]

82. +1000% --

[NuclearDem]

106. Nationalizing businesses isn't fascism, and it isn't a bad thing

Nationalizing corporations as a giant middle finger provocation to the US for the reasons of creating a perpetual Eurasia/Eastasia IS fascism.

[social_critic]

113. Chavez does a lot more than nationalizing corporations

I can see you are not fully aware of what goes on in Venezuela. There's a lot more going on than "nationalizing corporations". The Chavez regime has all the traits of a fascist government. This has been a slowly evolving process, because he has been in power for so long.

Those of you who are not in Venezuela don't perceive the changes, which have been more radical since he lost the constitutional referendum, and the municipal elections in 2008. The change towards fascism also accelerated after oil prices began to drop in 2008, because he had been thriving by throwing cash around, and the cash flow dropped suddenly. His popularity dropped, and when he saw the polls and election results, he started a move towards autocracy/dictatorship. So what we see now, in early 2011, is a well organized campaign to scuttle democratic institutions, align the military and security apparatus with his political party, PSUV, muzzle the media, control the internet, and prepare the country for a full fledged dictatorship, which I anticipate will be here by late 2012.

[FLPanhandle]

68. Chavez just uses the US as a bogeyman whenever he needs to divert attention away from something

Or when he wants more power.

[social_critic]

72. Exactly

It's fascist baloney. I do find it amusing to see so much generation x finger pointing coming from Chavez. It's the "dont blame me, blame somebody else" attitude I see in so many young people today. We need give these youngsters a bit of a spartan treatment to get them to shape up, and figure out they need to take care of their own problems without so much finger pointing.

[defendandprotect]

84. You may not have noticed, but US has become a "bogeyman" -- UN calls us "terrorist" nation -- !!

Catch up with American history --

:puke:

[FLPanhandle]

89. B.S.

and I know my American history.

[defendandprotect]

91. Do you deny United Nations has called US "a terrorist nation" ...

:rofl:

[maddezmom]

93. not going to deny it but I'm sure you can provide a link and context

:hi:

[NuclearDem]

105. Not being aware of a single United Nations does not make someone unaware of American history

Source, please.

[NuclearDem]

104. Exactly, this is just like when we look around the world...

...and use "TERRORIST" or "AL QAEDA" to explain violence that we don't fully understand.

Terrorism is our bogeyman, the US is Chavez's.

[defendandprotect]

81. Whoa ... Chavez does not hate the US ... Chavez lashes out at out CIA which has tried twice

or more to assassinate him -- topple him.

I don't trust my own country -- why would Chavez?

What Chavez seems to be saying is US wants Libya's oil -- and wouldn't be above

US/CIA to engineer an uprising so that US could come in and take over the oil.

Doubt that Chavez actually knew what was going on at the time -- just one of his fears.

Of course, this is a legitimate uprising of the people of Libya -- but we should always

be wary when US enters the picture.

Obviously, Libyans and other people in the Arab states would like to regain control

over their own natural resources -- oil. That's a threat to elites.

Further, OIL is a national security issue -- MIC uses 80% of our oil --

i.e. -- Obama/BP.

You can't run a war -- Imperialism -- without OIL at this time.

Though AF is talking about solar air planes!!

[joshcryer]

116. And he's lashing out against the protesters in Libya under the guise of CIA intervention!

C'mon!

[BOG PERSON]

96. i'm kind of disheartened by this news

i want to like chavez but... now i have to wonder why he has sympathy for an autocratic buffoon like gaddafi.

[KurtNYC]

110. no -- this is Chavez spinning any US involvement as 'imperialism'

This just Chavez spouting propaganda. I'm surprised AP ran this.

[ReggieVeggie]

120. any US involvement is imperialism

by definition

[joshcryer]

121. US corporations allowing Libyans to write on their websites, for instance.

US corporations should stop meddling.

[NuclearDem]

102. Hugo, the 'super secret US spies' bogeyman meme is getting old

[L. Coyote]

107. Not as old as paying for the damn bogeyman spies with borrowed money from China

and destroying the US economy in the process, while giving the rich tax breaks.

:rofl: Chavez could fix the USA before sunset if he actually were a dictator! :rofl:

[NuclearDem]

108. If Chavez were dictator here we wouldn't be much better off

The good thing about Bush is that we HAD to vote him out after eight years. Chavez, IIRC, has essentially suspended elections and made himself president for the foreseeable future.

But Chavez blaming his buddy Qaddafi's Libya's problems on the CIA is no better than us supporting dictators because they hate Al-Qaeda. Libya's just another opportunity for Chavez to make the US scarier than he already has to his own people.

[unkachuck]

109. anyone....

....who wants to help the good people of Libya remove a despicable tyrant should help....things can be sorted out later....

....brother Hugo, if you're backing Gadhafi, you're on the wrong side....

[killbotfactory]

111. American companies already had acces to Libyan oil, thank Bush.

And many of our allies did as well. There would be no reason for this bogus pretext to gain access to Libyan oil.

They are pissing away credibility defending an ally who is slaughtering his own people and will soon commit mass atrocities and/or shortly be stripped of power.

[social_critic]

114. They are neo-fascists posing as socialists

This is something many of you don't understand. Chavez and Castro are neo-fascists posing as socialists. Cuba is moving towards "market force socialism" as practiced in China, or disguised fascism. Chavez has always been a fascist, his focus is Chavez, how to get the Chavez family rich, and how to keep Chavez in power with adulating courtesans sucking up to him and applauding his every belch on cue. Ortega, the little dick in Nicaragua, is financed by Chavez, so he'll toe whatever line Chavez and Castro decide.

[joshcryer]

117. Yep, market-socialism is exactly where Cuba is going, the layoffs are slated to begin soon.

[Imagevision]

115. shuddup! -> we'll take care of Gadaffi!!!