Powell: Iraq Government May Have Limited Sovereignty

[Eye and Monkey]

Filed at 10:40 p.m. ET

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/news/news-iraq-usa-powell.html

By REUTERS
Published: April 8, 2004
Filed at 10:40 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Secretary of State Colin Powell said on Thursday the new interim Iraqi government may have to accept some limits on its sovereignty after the United States hands over authority on July 1.

Powell said Washington intended to work out agreements for U.S. troops now fighting against Shi'ite and Sunni rebels to remain in the country after the handover and for Iraq's armed forces to remain under U.S. command.

Who will take over sovereignty is unclear, but Powell said the leading option was to expand the U.S.-picked 25-member Iraqi Governing Council.

He also predicted the new authority will continue to face the kind of attacks now bedeviling the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority that has ruled Iraq since the U.S.-led invasion toppled Saddam Hussein a year ago.

[saigon68]

1. Its an old form of Government--A Puppet Government

It has a puppet president, similar to the Clueless, Dimwitted, Sock-Puppet President inhabiting 1600 Penn Ave.

[The_Casual_Observer]

2. At the rate things are happening, it will be very limited

Since all the cities will be controlled by Sadr

[alittlelark]

12. Well said....

..and we would all do well to contemplate it.
We have 2 choices - 1) become the governing authority (thru puppets) and accept high casualties, acceptable to Oil Interests. 2) Cut and run, turning to the UN and allowing a Iranian-style theocracy to take hold (and it will in REAL elections)- and take a complete loss on the $$$$$ and lives we have wasted to ensure revenue on the oil fields.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

23. Iran

If we leave now the governing council will collapse, there will be civil war, and Iran will step in to help the Shiites. Iran will likely be the de facto rulers of portions of Iraq, probably including oil fields. (Guess how ready we are to let that happen.)

We can't "turn it over to the UN" because there's nothing to turn over, so there is no option 2. The UN won't accept the responsibility for this.

[daleo]

29. How long should the U.S. military stay, then?

5 years? 10 years? A generation? A century? How much blood, treasure, and international goodwill should be squandered on this project? Viet Nam was an open ended commitment, too, and eventually it was all for naught - millions dead and maimed, hundreds of billions of dollars wasted, all for nothing. The world didn't end when the U.S. left Viet Nam, nor did all of Asia fall under communist influence. The same will be true when the U.S. leaves Iraq - the world will adjust.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

31. not the same

First of all, I'm not advocating staying in Iraq. I'm not advocating anything. I'm just saying that I think we aren't going to be leaving any time soon.

As for comparisons to Vietnam, no, it isn't the same at all. In Vietnam, there wasn't a force of international terrorists waiting to use it as safe harbor to launch attacks on US civilians. And, quite frankly, Vietnam was in a hell of a lot better shape when we left than Iraq is now. Furthermore, it's a bit ridiculous to suggest that because southeast asia didn't fall to the communists, that means instability in Iraq won't spread to other parts of the middle east, and that everything will just be a-ok when we leave.

It's comparing apples and oranges. You could make the same comparison with the Soviet pull-out in Afghanistan, where things certainly didn't work out too well for anybody, did they? The world "adjusted" then, too. Afghanistan was taken over by warlords, finally reined in by religious fundamentalists, and used as the base of operations from which to attack the United States. You seem to be saying Iraq = Vietnam in just about every respect, but you aren't backing it up with any facts or analysis. They are not the same culture. The social/economic/political situation in the middle east is vastly different than that of southeast asia in the 1970s. Vietnam was not sitting on top of the world's 2nd largest petroleum reserve. It's neighbors were not actively engaged in terrorism against the US. There was no radical religious hatred of the United States. It isn't the same thing at all.

So let me get back to your original question - how long should we stay there? In my opinion, this is fundamentally the wrong question to be asking. The real question that should concern us is not how long we're there, but what we do while we're there. Unfortunately, at this point it's more a question of what we *should* have done, because I believe that we've squandered our opportunity to do any kind of good in Iraq.

There is no good solution. If we stay, terrible things will happen. If we leave, terrible things will happen. It's not a choice that any politician will be prepared to make, and this will drag on and on. Saying that we should just leave, and everything will be ok is, in my opinion, a cop-out, because it very conveniently assumes that there will be no negative reprecussions if we pull out. The truth of the matter is that we're damned if we do, damned if we don't. So if it makes you feel better to get up on your high horse, then by all means go right ahead. But please just try to think this thing through a bit.

[daleo]

32. If the opportunity to do good has been squandered, why stay?

There is no good solution, Bush ensured that. But when faced with two bad alternatives, do the one that does the least harm and costs the least money. As for terrorism, I think that staying in Iraq is much more likely to result in terrorist attacks against the U.S. homeland than leaving. I don't say everything will be OK if the U.S. pulls out, it will just be less bad.

Remember during the Viet Nam era the argument was that the world wide communist conspiracy, which was armed with thousands of nuclear weapons, was going to take over the world, overthrow western civilization, stamp out Christianity, and commit other evils that make Bin Laden look like a bush leaguer. Yet, for the most part, things turned out OK, certainly better than if the war would have dragged on another decade or two, which looked possible in those days.

I don't think I am on a high horse, just being practical. I have thought this through, I just haven't came to the same conclusions that you have. The Iraq invasion was a mistake, as was Viet Nam, and it will end the same way. The will to spend the money and lives will just not last. At any rate, history will be the judge.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

33. .

If the opportunity to do good has been squandered, why stay?

Because of the very real possibility that Iran will intervene and we will end up attacing Iran to prevent them from occupying eastern Iraq, which would be a horrible disaster.

As for terrorism, I think that staying in Iraq is much more likely to result in terrorist attacks against the U.S. homeland than leaving.
Probably. However, the possibility of terrorist attacks against Kuwait and Saudi Arabia would drastically increase, as Al Qaeda would have a good base in close physical proximity to both of those places. Keep in mind that if the Saudi government gets overrun, it will cause unprecedented economic chaos. Even the suggestion that such a thing might be possible is enough to send the oil markets into a tizzy. It could be very, very bad.

Remember during the Viet Nam era the argument was that the world wide communist conspiracy, which was armed with thousands of nuclear weapons, was going to take over the world, overthrow western civilization, stamp out Christianity, and commit other evils that make Bin Laden look like a bush leaguer.

Yes, except that Al Qaeda, unlike the international communist conspiracy, actually exists. It *has* attacked us. It will do so again. It will continue to do so until we eliminate its safe harbors, and remove the impetus for people to join them in the first place. Given that we've basically made the second part of that equation impossible, I'm willing to settle for denying them bases of operations until we get someone in the WH who isn't a lunatic warmonger.


I don't think I am on a high horse, just being practical.
Apologies. I've just been in a cranky mood over this whole thing lately. I still don't agree with you that this will end the same way as Vietnam. There are tribal and religious tensions here that you still haven't addressed at all. There are economic issues. This is not southeast asia.

[0007]

34. Vietnam wasn't about communism - it was about another

natural resource, called tungsten, that the U.S. wanted cheaply and paid dearly. Communism was just to fire up the folks.

A famous French General warned Eisenhower what would happen if American went into Vietnam. He listened. Another President didn't.

[thebigidea]

3. "The best part of freedom is knowing when to stop."

thanks, Colon!

[bpilgrim]

4. pfft.. you can say that again...

from what i seen of the plan they only get to actually have sole authority over the ministry of HEALTH.

shoot... we don't even count their bodies why would we be concerned about their health.

makes perfect sense.

and so it goes...


peace

[The Magistrate]

14. It Will Be An Exercise In Puppetry Un-Paralleled Since Manchukuo, Sir

Every ministry will have U.S. "advisors," who all will know will wield the controlling authority.

It will exist for the sole purposes of "inviting" U.S. military forces to remain in occupation, and "awarding" contracts and national properties to U.S. corporations.

There will not be six nations on the earth who will recognize it as a legitimate authority.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[bpilgrim]

15. so it's not just 'all in our heads'

everyone is talking bout vietnam but this is shapping up to be our nanking or WORSE STALINGRAD...

they decided not to make the 'mistake' germany made in not taking out moscow but they ignored the lessons of stalingrad which i hope we aren't faced with next.

these men running the show are GUILTY imo of TREASON :argh:

good to see you, sir :hi:

peace

[The Magistrate]

18. No, My Friend

Large portions of the radical critique in this matter are spot on. There is no need to recite the areas where we differ, but the important overlaps, that this is an exercise in looting, and that it is intended, at least by the current administation, to use this place as a base for further imperial adventuring in the region, under the title of "bringing freedom and democracy to the Near East," are worth stating explicitly. That latter element, by the way, does strike me as one of the important differences in this matter between Sen. Kerry and the current criminal regime: it is my conviction that if elected, Sen. Kerry will at least, in Mr. Lincoln's phrase, put the thing "clearly on the path to extinction," even if this might proceed more slowly than many of us would wish, while there is no doubt whatever in my mind that the criminals of the '00 Coup, if maintained in office, will continue ever further down the path they have already staked out, whatever the cost in blood and treasure to our prople, and the Iraqi people, and the other peoples of the region.

What is facing U.S. forces is a spreading campaign of partisan suppression in urban environment. The fighting in Fallujah illustrates the difficulties that can be expected, and this is going to have to be repeated in half a dozen places in the country, as things stand now. The forces available are inadequate to the task without a lavish expenditure of firepower, which will certainly involve a disproportionate number of civilan casualties, which will complete the work of rallying the Shia populace en masse against the occupation begun by Mr. Sadr and his cohorts. The occupation authorities have left themselves no choice but to embark on this course, by their stating their intention to kill or capture Mr. Sadr, and to break the militia rallied to him, yet even success in this course cannot produce quiesence in the country under current circumstances.

"Desperate men do desperate things, and stupid men do stupid things. We are in for a desperately stupid summer."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[bpilgrim]

19. i hope the tide has turned today with the Aug, 6th Memo

this will wake up most reasonable people who may still have been undecided about this admin.

it is clear now that they have been LIEING since for a long, long time and continue to do so to this very day.

(on edit: did you just call me a 'radical', you know radicals ain't allowed on DU :evilgrin: )

peace

[The Magistrate]

24. No Insult Intended, My Friend

Some of my favorite persons are radical sorts, after all, and there certainly do seem to be a lot of them here....

That memo will have a good deal of impact on the popular mind, Sir. The title alone is devastating.

"Justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[bpilgrim]

26. ah,ome on

you know i'm just josh'n.

we are friends, that's what friends do ;-)

anyways, you are certainly one of the most level headed folks i have known on this board and certainly a great contributer over the years and help keep things in perspective specially in the 'dungeon' and i not only admire it i learn and will never forget it.

thank you friend :toast:

i am very glad we see 'eye-to-eye' on this one, sometimes yall in the middle make us 'radicals' PARANOID :evilgrin:

:hi:

peace

[The Magistrate]

27. Yes, Sir

That was clear to me, but rough-house is not one my skills, and sometimes my attempts at reply in kind clank awkwardly.

A toast to you too, my friend! You are too kind in your compliments, and it is always a pleasure to be in agreement with you...it keeps me on my toes!

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[The Magistrate]

28. The Machine Hiccoughed

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[rocktivity]

5. Aside from not controlling their own economy and military, you mean?

:headbang:
rocknation

[PsN2Wind]

6. The Vichy Iraqi government

that has the freedom to do anything we say they can.

[Jacobin]

7. Oh, ya Think?????

Hold the PResses!!!!!!!

Call all your neighbors!!!!!!!!!

The puppet government will be a puppet government!!!!!!!!!

Tell everyone you know!!!!!!

[skooooo]

11. Can't turn things over to the "freedom haters", ya know! n/t

[truthisfreedom]

8. freedom's just another word for "nothing left to lose."

powell has been lying for the administration for soooooo long that he's become a parody of himself.

[tedzbear]

9. Sovereign, yet at the same time NOT sovereign.

"They will be sovereign, but I think as a result of agreements, as a result of hopefully resolutions that are passed, there will be some constraints on the power of this sovereignty," Powell said of any new Iraqi government."

Some liberation. Iraq's hand picked leaders have to let us base our armed forces there, AND keep their armed forces under our command. Not to mention privatizing their entire economy.

We all saw this coming a year ago, and I'm sure Sistani did too. I can't wait to hear his response to this BS. Think he might ally himself with al-Sadr now???

Of course we have to keep our army and air force there. How else will we convince our oil companies that it's safe to rip off the natives?

:mad:

edit for sp.

[Zhade]

20. "Think he might ally himself with al-Sadr now???"

In my opinion, without a doubt.

[theHandpuppet]

30. I'm not so sure...

Is Sistani Iraq's version Petain?

I honestly don't know what Sistani must be thinking. Did he really believe that acquiesence to the US would grant his people anything more than a puppet govt hand-picked and tightly controlled by the US? At some point he will come off to his people as a collaborator who sold out a nation for some promised or expected slice of the pie.

Or perhaps he's playing a waiting game to see which way the cards fall -- letting Sadr and his followers, along with the Sunnis, knock themselves out in this battle for self-determination whilst he remains neutral, thereby leaving himself (and his followers) an out should either side win or lose?

Or will he wait until the crucial moment and play ther part of "cavalry to the rescue", positioning himself to be THE national hero and securing the governing council for the more "moderate" Shiite majority?

Is he a doddering old fool or a wily fox? I haven't a clue. But if he really thought the US was going to allow Iraq to govern itself, I'd say the former.

[amber dog democrat]

10. So long as we have control of their oil

any old puppet government will be just fine.

[gulliver]

13. Just sovereign enough to say the word "sovereign" in ads.

Like all things Bush, this fraudulent sovereignty is spin. The Bushies will just say that the powerless Iraqi leaders are sovereign and brazen out the fact that they are sovereign only as an election year ploy.

[IndianaGreen]

16. The US will keep the oil, the lucrative contracts

The Iraqi people will find themselves paying for things that used to be free, such as their health care being replaced by an American HMO.

No self-respecting Iraqi will agree to become a slave of the Americans. It is better to fight for independence now, and do to the US the same thing the Algerians did to the French.

[Zhade]

21. Sadly, you are right.

I don't want U.S. troops to be killed any more than I want Iraqis to be killed - but both will happen as long as we stupidly remain in Iraq.

This is the new Viet Nam that we and millions of others predicted long before Shock & Awe. We were right. How I wish to God we'd been wrong.

We need to get the hell out, before we get driven out at huge losses. We will lose in Iraq. It is inevitable.

Kerry better watch himself, or he'll wind up our new LBJ.

[progressivebydesign]

17. Just cermonial, photo-op BULLSHIT!

They are doing that handover for one reason and one reason only!! The elections! Makes me so ill to see how they play with other people's lives!! Okay.. the other reason to do it, is so that Bush the Slacker can vacation in August without hassles. Assholes!

[wtmusic]

22. The handoff is a fake

being stage-managed for *'s reelection campaign.

[mike_c]

25. Bush will wear his flght suit and strut around a hanger in...

...Baghdad, surrounded by handpicked soldiers promised an early ticket home for showing some enthusiasm. Then it's back to murder and mayhem as usual....