Kentucky Senate Votes to End Public Employee Pensions

[maxrandb]

Source: Business Insider

The Kentucky state Senate passed a bill Friday that would end guaranteed pensions for new state and local government employees. The Lexington Herald-Leader reports that the bill was designed to address the public pension funds' growing liability. The paper reports:

Kentucky needs to stay ahead of the multibillion-dollar pension liability problem that is forcing tax hikes and painful spending reductions in other states, said Republican senators backing the bill. "It is just not affordable to go forward with our current plan, for state government or for local governments," Sen. Damon Thayer, R-Georgetown, told his colleagues.



Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/kentuck-senate-votes-to-end-guaranteed-pensions-2011-2#ixzz1Dy1fPQVy

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/kentuck-senate-votes-to-end-guaranteed-pensions-2011-2

---

Looks more and more like all out war on pensions. Just curious for some of the wingnuts who support this kind of stuff. If this is allowed to happen, what is going to stop your business or company you've worked for 30 or 40 years at, do the same to you.

Years and years of defering compensation to workers in the form of promised pensions.

Years and years of financing tax-cuts for the wealthy on the back of that "defered compensation".

and now...balancing the books on the backs of public employees.

Years and years of slandering unions.

[Mojorabbit]

1. This all out attack is frightening. nt

[Rosa Luxemburg]

93. Republicans will bleed you dry!

[tomp]

120. democrats will too, rosa.

and your screen name is as bad as "radical activist" if you can seriously make a such a statement under that nom de plume.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

137. but not so much

[tomp]

144. oh, sure! you only show you really don't understand how things work....

....and i once again assert you do not deserve your screen name.

the repubs and democrats have worked hand-in-hand on an agreed upon program of class maintenance since...well, pretty much a century, anyway. the theft of wealth is agreed upon a priori and the two parties use different methods to achieve the same goal. the only reason there are two parties is for the show, for appearances. it is a very effective method, pretty much good cop/bad cop. in the end the people lose either. bones and crumbs is all the people ever get.

you should know that.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

147. I know that

besides I hadn't even mentioned Democrats

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

156. Rude

[Enthusiast]

109. They're fascists. nt

[Vinnie From Indy]

2. Will that include members of the Kentucky legislature as well?

Any bets on that question?

[RKP5637]

5. I would think so, but then again that would mean they consider themselves

public servants, but we know they consider themselves the ruling class and probably exempt.

[FreakinDJ]

7. Not a FUCKING Chance

[SomeGuyInEagan]

26. If it does, only those not currently serving.

It is only for new employees, as it is.

This will only hurt the state, in multiple ways.

First, unless they match salaries/benefits to private sector equivalents where they are currently short, they will quickly become second choice for prospective employees when the economy improves. I can't speak for Kentucky, but in areas I am familiar with that would be the case for most I.T. functions, for example.

Second, this will create an us v. them attitude among current and new employees.

Third, this will eventually lead to outsourcing ... which is what I believe it is all about anyway. Republicans are all about a "smaller", "learner", "less-expensive" government except for military and/or where they can make a buck doing the same task as a greatly inflated price as a private contractor.

And eventually indentured servitude and debtor's prisons, the next big corporations in 'Merica.

[james0tucson]

32. There won't be any

>It is only for new employees, as it is.

Well, there will be new ones, but as in all state government jobs, only those with limited options will be attracted to them, at least not at the level of "professional staff" jobs.

It's nice to get state jobs when you are starting your career, since you can often get higher authority than you would get otherwise. But another huge attractor is the simplicity and the value of the retirement plan. Take that off the table, and nobody who has a choice is going to go out of his way to work for the state. What kind of employee do you end up with when you have the last pick?

[raccoon]

128. In SC at least, I can tell you there are already many of those with limited options.

"as in all state government jobs, only those with limited options will be attracted to them, at least not at the level of "professional staff" jobs. "


Many state jobs here are part-time, no benefits.

[eilen]

74. I believe this is already occurring among the autoworkers.

"Second, this will create an us v. them attitude among current and new employees."

[Hannah Bell]

84. yes: a two-tier system does that; drives a wedge through the house of labor.

[grahamhgreen]

66. That's our talking point - beat it over their heads.

[plumbob]

83. no, it won't. Theirs are separate and rich.

http://kentuckyrollcall.blogspot.com/2010/03/rollback-of-legislators-uber-rich.html

In the 2005 session of the Kentucky General Assembly, legislators made a bold raid on the public treasury. In a planned maneuver during the chaos caused by the logjam of bills in the closing days of the session, they sneaked through a bill (HB 299) without a public hearing. It enriched their own pensions so much, it made the infamous 1982 “greed bill” look like chicken feed.

As a result of the 2005 bill, for example, Rep. Harry Moberly is guaranteed a legislative pension of at least $168,686 a year, former Rep. J.R. Gray, is drawing an equivalent of around $400,000 a year as secretary of the Labor Cabinet, and House Speaker Greg Stumbo is locked in to a legislative pension of $98,824 a year* — all for working part-time as a member of the state Legislature. These are a few of the richest examples. Other enrichments, and potential enrichments, courtesy of the public treasury, exist in abundance. A detailed explanation of how the legislator’s retirement plan works is posted at www.kentuckyrollcall.com, archive, September 2009.

more at link

[sinkingfeeling]

3. Did they have the gall to exempt state representatives and senators from that?

[ieoeja]

16. I very seriously doubt that elected officials were ever in the same pension plan as civil servants.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

27. How about those who work for the legislators?

Are the secretaries, legislative assistants, housekeeping staff, etc., employed by the civil service system? I bet it's going to be interesting having the older workers who are vested in the current pension system working along side of new employees who are going to get jack shit.

Over and over again the Repukes show themselves for what they are -- evil, mean, petty and selfish. They are the elitists they accuse the Dems to be. And people still vote them into office.

I can't believe anyone would vote for these m-f.s I guess Goebbels was right -- any lie repeated enough times is accepted as being true.

[nonpareil]

29. Some might be members, depending on Kentucky law

I don't know about Kentucky, but in Oregon elected officials can join PERS and receive the same benefits as anyone else. Many are already PERS members when they're elected because they worked for the state or a city or county previously. Off the top of my head I think we have some former law enforcement, judges and professors in the legislature right now who would probably have been PERS members already before they were elected. Some of the folks who are so anti-PERS do opt out.

[CreekDog]

51. they are exempted because they already are employed by the state

so by voting to end them, it appears they will keep their own.

[RKP5637]

4. Great combination. No pensions for older people, lower wages before retired, no

jobs for older people and high unemployment. Is this model working well or what. I wonder when Americans will wake up to our future.

[maxrandb]

6. Even worse

Because what the bill would do is ensure that the "current" employees and retirees are supported by the "new" employees.

End pensions for "new" employees, and they won't notice it for 30-40 years until they are ready to retire. Then they can say..."gee, I guess a pension would be nice, how the hell did this happen...oh right...I VOTED FOR TEABAGGERS!"

[RKP5637]

12. If there is anyone left to write the history of the US years from now, this will

go down in history IMO as the "Era of Willful Stupidity." I have just never seen so many vote in the worst interest for their future and the future of the country.

The propaganda runs sooooo deep in the US I think it's getting as bad as during the cold war in totalitarian countries. In fact, it might be worse here because it is administered with anesthesia.

And we have the supreme court siding in favor of funding manipulative behavior with the person hood of corporations, while much of the country is on track for peasanthood.

[jmowreader]

46. They'll go to a 401(k) plan

With, of course, NO employer match.

[Peggy Day]

105. With all those high wages they're earning! nt

[abq e streeter]

31. I agree with every word of your post except I'd add "present" to " and future".

[RKP5637]

Excellent point! Thanks! n/t

[musiclawyer]

55. They cant undo exisiting contributions and obligations

But what will happen is the good civil servants will get out-- retire or go to the private sector where wages are higher. And the jobs that open up will be filled by young employees who will receive lousy government wages but now without pensions--which besides civil service protection is the other incentive to working for local government at all despite the lower wages.This is the Walmarting of Civil Service. And you think local governmetn is non-responsive as it is? Wait another 5 years. There are ALWAYS unintended consequences. This will never happen in CA or NY or any semi blue state.

[gristy]

70. I agree. The state won't be able to keep its positions filled with competent people

There will be no more "career civil servents". And the people of Kentucky will begin to realize that "career civil servents" knew what they are doing because it was their career. And they will soon find what it's like to be offered fries with that driver's license.

[Enthusiast]

110. What kind of people want to

live in such a heartless country?

[Peregrine Took]

8. What kills me - number of moronic public employees who vote for rethugs.

How stupid can they be?

I'm pretty sure they are still hung up on cultural issues from the '60's such as the Civil Rights, busing, integration, hippies, women's lib, gays, anti war demonstrations in the '60's and the like.

They are a lost cause but the nasty thing is they pass their warped views onto their kids so now they are mouthing crazy stuff they learned at home.

[Enthusiast]

111. "How stupid can they be? "

The great single issue voter. Well, not single issue. There is abortion and gun control.

This is what we get when media fairness is gifted to the corporations. The fairness doctrine prevented these abuses.

[Lindsay]

9. More right-wing insanity.

Day after day after day....

[naaman fletcher]

10. It isn't clear..

are they just changing it into a defined contribution plan?

[fasttense]

11. Maybe you people who live in Kentucky need to show your

legislature how you feel about it?

Maybe you need to show them how real people stand up to bullies.

If this law does NOT apply to all your Judges, your executives - Governors, legislators, police, firefighters and every last state employee, then you need to show them what you think.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cdcfbw1]

81. Maybe you people.....

Can you say EGYPT!!! Someone needs to take to the streets!!

[rhett o rick]

92. Did you intend this post to be condescending toward "you people" of Kentucky? nm

[fasttense]

117. No,

My spouse of 27 years is from Kentucky and he's upset too. Since I don't live in Kentucky, I can't say we or us.

Ok, so on further reflection I can see how someone could misinterpret my comment. Sorry about that.

It's a family joke really. When someone says "you people" we all chime in with "you people" to point out it really involves the whole family and not some anonymous group.

I live in TN and many people just lump us together - TN and Kentucky. I've heard it said a thousand times. I was trying to make a distinction that seems to have been lost in translation.

My apologies. My intent was to support a protest against those who seem determined to make life hell for those of us not blessed with silver spoons in our mouths.

Sorry.

[rhett o rick]

136. Cool. I read it both ways. Thanks for the clarification. nm

[L. Coyote]

13. Discover the Network Out to Crush Our Public Workers

http://www.truth-out.org/discover-network-out-crush-our-public-workers67663

[NeoConsSuck]

62. Thank you Coyote

I'm sending that link to my NY State govt. co-workers. They feel safe being in a Democratic state, they refuse to be believe Cuomo is friends with big business, and not a friend of labor.

[annabanana]

138. +1. .(shared & retweeted). . . n/t

[aggiesal]

14. When looking at the voting results, ...

in 2008: McCain won by 17% (58%-41%)
McConnell won the Senate seat by 6% (53%-47%)
Republicans won 4 of 6 congressional seats.
in 2010: Paul won the Senate seat by 12% (56%-44%)
Republicans won 4 of 6 congressional seats. (1 Dem. won by only 600 votes!)

They vote almost at a 60% to 40% republican. So their local races
will no doubt show the same margin.

I feel sorry for the public workers, but if statistic hold true,
then they voted at a 60/40 rate as well.

What did they expect they were getting?

Unfortunately, their bringing down the other 40% that voted wisely.

[Freddie Stubbs]

155. You are mistaken

The Governor of Kentucky is a Democrat, and Democrats hold a majority in the State House.

[bluestateguy]

15. It looks like the Democratic House and Governor Beshear (D) would not support it

nt

[era veteran]

33. I was looking for this comment, the first one that pointed

this, the most important thing, out. Thanks

[Sherman A1]

17. There is a description for this action, however

it is not for polite conversation.

[lunatica]

18. The Shock Doctrine comes home to roost

[stockholmer]

19. "Senate Bill 2 to the Democratic-led House, where its future appears grim."

[CrossChris]

21. I'd like to be able to laugh this off, but

in a couple of weeks, there will be protests in the street from Kentucky public workers, demanding an end to their pensions.

[54anickel]

22. Does this go back to the financial meltdown and underfunded pensions? Guess since the idea of

stealing social security to bouy the markets didn't get off the ground, they're gonna to write off the pensions obligations that were lost in the meltdown instead. Then there's Walker in WI taking it a step further and using it to bust the unions.
Unions and pensions----relegated to the pages of history books as the underlying cause for the financial crisis. :eyes:

[Enthusiast]

112. And Kasich is doing the same.

Their behavior looks suspiciously like the arrogance Bush displayed after 9/11. Tough talk and cowboy around.

[newspeak]

154. yes, remember the public pension plan

in Florida losing money because of investments in Enron? Then, in Ohio Ney allegedly invested in "coins" (at least that's where they said the money went). I think they were investigating to see if they were flowing pension money into Repug coffers. I'd say they've been bamboozling the American public for quite some time. As we keep shoveling our money into pensions and social security that's supposed to allow us some comfort in our so-called golden years, they've been shoveling out just as fast.

The S&L debacle (one of the greatest heists), Enron, Madoff, lucrative war profiteering, billions unaccounted for in Iraq, bank bailouts--it appears they've been spending like a drunken sailor, and now WE the people are told we must sacrifice. Haven't WE sacrificed enough--go ask those greedy MF'ers who have sent our jobs offshore to exploit slave labor or Wall Street greedheads who have GAMBLED to make a buck on our misery--go ASK THEM TO SACRIFICE!!!!

[newtothegame]

23. This isn't "balancing the books on the backs of public employees."

It's removing pensions as an option for new employees. Pensions disappeared years ago in the private sector. Even those of us in nonprofits have 401(k)'s now.

[quaker bill]

42. And isn't that sad.

[lunasun]

75. yes it is and certainly nothing to banner about

[DainBramaged]

24. One more reson not to work as a public employee.......

[dotymed]

129. It's just like the

"all volunteer military", there are no jobs anywhere else. This forces (as they had planned) to fight for these low wage, no pension jobs to survive. Just like our young people HAVE to join the military to survive and/or go to college. Obama just helped this along with his financial aid cuts. The wealthy and comfortable 5%. WE MUST TAKE TO THE STREETS before it is too late for all of us.

[hollowdweller]

142. We lost the class war this time

We are experiencing what would have happened after the Great Depression if the republicans had managed to convince the public it was the democrats caused it.

We are sort of in the post depression but with Hoover still at the helm.

[dotymed]

153. IMO, we have lost the battle, not the war.

We NEED a Peaceful Revolution that changes our paradigm to one that is more consistent with FDR than Reagan's handlers.

[Delphinus]

25. This is scary.

It also seems to be wrong. But, if they weren't in a Union, they don't have any recourse, do they?

[Atypical Liberal]

28. It's already done.

Looks more and more like all out war on pensions. Just curious for some of the wingnuts who support this kind of stuff. If this is allowed to happen, what is going to stop your business or company you've worked for 30 or 40 years at, do the same to you.

I haven't worked for a company that provided a pension in 20 years. The very first company I worked for had a pension plan, and I think by the time I left there it might have been worth $100 a month during retirement or something.

Frankly, I wouldn't want to work someplace that had a "pension" as part of the retirement plan. Who can say that any company will be in business by the time I get to retirement? Now I personally think that before they can raid the pension plan companies that go under should have to sell everything down to the pencils first, and that pension plans should remain funded to the end and not be siezable by share holders or other debt claims other than employees.

But it never works that way. Those pensions plans always get siphoned off leaving the retirees with jack.

So I would not want my retirement compensation stuck in a pension.

I'm not excited about having it in a 401K, either, because now I'm at the whim of the market when I decide it's time to retire.

But anyway, pensions are a thing of the past. You better save for yourself, because there won't be anything else.

[Yupster]

40. Same here

I've only worked for one company in my life that provided a pension and that was my nine years as a public school teacher.

From then on the last 20 years it's been 401 (k)'s.

[Bluebear]

30. Don't worry about the "wingnuts" supporting this. Our own party is complicit.

We used to be the party that stood behind labor, behind unions, behind public servants. Now we are 'pragmatic'...we have to watch our "tone". It's an all-out attack on the worker and our Party is not fighting it.

[Fuddnik]

34. We need a General Strike in this country.

They've declared war on us. We can surrender and be serfs, or we can fight back.

I ain't no fucking serf!

[Flatulo]

36. It won't matter. Your job will be shipped to China in 15 minutes.

[Flatulo]

35. I've worked as an engineer in the private sector for 35 years, and

I've never gotten near a pension plan. They are offered at only about 17% of private employers.

What we got instead was highly unstable 401K plans that can and do disappear from time to time. Three times in my working career my savings have been wiped out. In the last decade alone, I ended with the same amount I started the decade with, despite putting hundreds of thousands of dollars in there. An entire decade of potential growth - gone - poof.

Pension plans have the same problem - on order to make the kinds of returns needed to guarantee their payouts, the money needs to be invested in securities, which are highly volatile. Once or twice per decade the rich just sweep all that money off the table and force a do-over. And the pension plan goes broke.

[RKP5637]

37. Similar to the experiences I've had too. n/t

[TxVietVet]

43. I've worked for a union wage for over 35 years.

The conservanazi leadership under cut-and-run ronnie raygun tightened up the rules auditing those "crooked unions". Twice a year. The auditor stayed a total of 6 months at my union hall. (Betcha that kept them away from the "free market crooks".) Both unions I've belong to had their pension boards that were conservative in investments. I know for a fact that as they accumalate money, they had to pay out more benefits. I was treasurer for one. I got nothing extra than the $25 salary a month that came with the position. Not much money for job especially if someone would try something fancy.
I'm retired now. My pension has been safe as far as I know. The checks are regular. The union, the actuaries and the beneficiaries watch the activities of the investments like a hawk. I want them to. It keeps them honest. I feel sorry for those who got screwed. It's also a new game now and they are cutting out pensions under GATT which is another gimmick I haven't fully investigated yet. It's affected my brother. He took his money and ran before it all fell apart. Just like ENRON.

[Enthusiast]

113. We have witnessed the Enronization

of American business. Enron is a model for them.

[Yavin4]

38. You Get What You Vote For

You have destroyed your public education system. Congrats. Good luck competing with developing nations.

[Tripod]

39. I see it happening every where.

Are people really that disposable? :(

[TxVietVet]

41. I pity those that might choose to work for Kentucky in the future.

Now, it's for future employees. Setting up a two-tier system. Those that have it and those that don't. So, someone is getting under paid. That leads to friction. Now, if they can hold onto the job just doing the minimum, that will occur also. So, the first half-assed good job that offers anything rather than working for the state, POOF, they are gone.
Now, this also sets up a deal for the bribers of the conservanazis. Say the state can't fill the jobs, then the state will have one of it's well connected (to the conservanazis) contractors to fill the jobs. Now, I'm willing to be a dollar to a donut hole that those jobs will cost 150 to 200% more than what they are paying now. It's all about how they can screw the workers and how one of their bribers gets to loot the state treasury.

Now, if you work for the state and voted for those conservanazis, you should give up your pension right now to be a good party toadie. Sorry bastards. :puke:

[joeglow3]

44. In answer to your question, almost all companies had done it already

The problem is that it can be difficult for a municipality to shoulder 100% of the investment risk. Even more challenging is fire and police pensions. Here, you can retire with fill benefits after 20 years. Thus, someone can work until they are 45 and then draw 70-80% of salary for life. Thus, it is entirely possible for someone to live to 95, get 70 years of pay for 20 years of work.

Honestly, I don't see how that generous of a package is sustainable. However, like most things, the pendulum doesn't swing to where it needs to be. Instead it swings waaaaay the other way. In this, they are being done away with altogether.

Instead, I would like to see a combination defined benefit plan/defined contribution plan.

[TxVietVet]

45. If the employee contributed at least half the fund, I say let them have it.

But, they haven't the taxpayer is stuck with it now. First of all, those jobs probably didn't pay a great deal way back then when it all started. Over the years, negotiations made those jobs more lucrative. Now, you have to be trained before you can even be considered as a candidate for those jobs. But, once they get those jobs, they are set for life. Just like the military. WE don't hear the conservanazis whining about the military YET. :-0

[joeglow3]

50. There are definite abuses

A family friend was a fire captain here in Omaha. He retired at 47 and is now drawing a pension close to $90,000 for life (a LOT in Nebraska). He then took a fire captain in neighboring Bellevue, NE for close to 6 figures.

This is one example of abuse. My father is a retired drywaller. He retired at age 55 and began drawing his pension. However, one requirement is that he CANNOT collect his pension and work in a job that is the same as his prior job (i.e. he cannot become a non-union drywaller). I would think something similar should apply here.

We also lost our Police Chief. He retired with a six figure salary and left to be a police Chief in Texas.

http://www.omaha.com/article/20100323/NEWS01/703239872

[TxVietVet]

85. I'm a retired union electrician. I can't work in any electrical industry trades or

I'll lose my pension. That's the way it is with most unions. You make way for the younger generation. I don't have a problem with that.
I remember when I got out of the Army, there was some complaining about the military pension. Out at 20 years and go get another job. Some wanted to make it 30 years or 55 years old which ever came first. A lot of retired military end up double-dipping. Getting GS rated jobs and drawing more.
I guess the point should be is that either we should honor our basic commitments to a contract or just say that new conservanazi republiklan mantra: YOYO, You're Own Your On.

If this recession gets worse, it will be like the Great Depression and things will have to drastically change or the have nots outnumbe the haves and they can be armed and dangerous. Things will change.

[Go2Peace]

96. Those early age retirements are already changed. Most can't retire that early anymore

I get a little tired of generalizations that do not represent the majority of situations. Pensions in government have already been adjusting for years. Few governments allow retirements before age 55 and only then with at least 30-35 years of service for newer employees. And not as many employees make it to 30 years as people might think, and anyone with less cannot access it until 58-60, and then at a severe discount in payments.

There is indeed a problem, MANAGEMENT pay has gotten out of hand, and with it their pensions. And we *all* are to blame for that, because we bought into the idea that managers should be paid super salaries in the 80s and 90s.

We need to be careful about repeating propaganda points. The facts are that the problems are not near as wholesale. Our entire culture is reacting to warts by cutting off arms and legs. We are going to kill a lot of people this way!

[sulphurdunn]

52. So what if they do?

Exactly what does unsustainable mean? I think it means that less than 1% of Americans can continue to skim 35% of the national income and own 80% of the financial wealth. It means that someone who's put his or her butt on the line for 20 years in a hazardous public service job might live long enough after retirement to enjoy it. What is not sustainable are hedge fund managers making $3 billion a year and paying lower effective tax rates than I do, banks that require trillions of dollars in public debt guarantees, states that won't raise taxes for any reason but subsidize corporations that don't create jobs, half the federal budget going to military spending when no credible threat to our armed hegemony exists, corporations that are rewarded with tax breaks to outsource the manufacturing and service base of the country, and on and on... Unsustainable public pensions my ass!

[Lars39]

56. And an underpaid public service job, at that!

State workers generally make crap wages.

[joeglow3]

61. NONE of those have anything to do with local governments

Pensions ARE unsustainable for many local governments.

[sulphurdunn]

73. Oh yes they do.

Pensions are no more unsustainable for local governments than is the funding of public schools. If local governments cannot generate enough revenue to meet their social obligations after the exercise of due diligence then it is the responsibility of the state and federal governments to make up the balance. If they won't do that then the problem becomes political and not financial. What I am trying to say is that communities of people have a right to live decently. That's why we created this goddamn country. If the people we elect to attend to that matter have decided to sacrifice us for the sake of a moneyed aristocracy the we're right back to where we were in 1776, and the solution to the problem is the same now as it was then.

[proud2BlibKansan]

79. +1

:thumbsup:

[TxVietVet]

86. K&R

[joeglow3]

89. What do you consider living decently?

Is collecting almost 3 million dollars in pension payments in your life "decent" living? How about while you retire and work the EXACT same job in a neighboring city for an additional $80,000 a year?

How about the police chief drawing over $100,000 a year for life (indexed for inflation) who also takes the same job in Texas making over $100,000 a year?

NO ONE said people should not be able to live decently. However, I question if some of these are excessive (i.e. work for 20 years and get 70 years of pay for it). I think there needs to be a middle ground. I agree people need to be able to live decently, but do not think the jobs should be lotteries.

[TxVietVet]

91. It's abuse. For sure.

[Go2Peace]

100. enough of the right wing propaganda please. Maybe you can talk about Bell California next?

If you are really so well up on this issue you would know that those abuses are not characteristic of the majority of retirements.

How about having an HONEST discussion instead of spreading misinformation.

Nobody is against FIXING the abuses.

[joeglow3]

119. Read up a bit on Omaha's issues first

Drop the "RW Propahanda" cop out whenever you cannot discuss something intelligently.

[sulphurdunn]

139. Aren't there enough

Cadillac driving welfare queens, plutocrat public service pensioners and overpaid laboring parasites out there to make an investment banker fume with righteous indignation?

[proud2BlibKansan]

78. They are only unsustainable if they CHOOSE for them to be unsustainable

It's not that the money isn't there, it's that they are spending it on other things.

Republicans love to say that budget cuts are necessary, that we have no choice. But we do have a choice. We can choose to spend our resources taking care of people and educating our kids. Or we can choose tax cuts, making the wealthy wealthier and taxing the middle class.

[joeglow3]

99. I don't know about your city, but Omaha is going to be hurting.

With a $2B+ unfunded mandate for sewer separations and almost $1B in pension shortfalls, they are not spending much money elsewhere.

[Go2Peace]

98. You get it! We are in a period of worldwide prosperity. We are being lied to and propagandized

massively.

Certainly there always need to be adjustments and improvements. But this whole idea that were are living in an age of austerity is a LIE! Productivity increases are producing incredible prosperity LIKE NEVER BEFORE IN HISTORY.

Yet they have our ignorant people believing that we don't have enough money to do what is right and they want us all to fight over scraps while they enrich themselves beyond measure.

It's a freaking form of social DARWINISM that is being played on us.

[Sinistrous]

150. Excellent post !

[Bandit]

47. Hey it is all OK though because the wealthy won't have to pay more in taxes..

Their free ride will continue as long as they keep feathering the nest of those Republican politicians..

[lsewpershad]

48. Tell me again why I need Govt?

[intheflow]

49. I was doing some union organizing at a church once.

This retired teacher stood up all anti-union saying that the unions were bleeding the school systems dry. I asked her if she hadn't been in a teachers union and she admitted she had been - but that was before the unions "went bad." :eyes: I'd like to add this was a solidly middle-class supposedly liberal church (back when there was still a middle class, a decade ago) in a conservative town (Colorado Springs). So in other words, she was saying, "I got mine, fuck you, current and future teachers." :puke:

[TxVietVet]

87. She's one of those rabid conservanazi converts that believe what you say

"fuck you, I got mine". That's the new conservanazi christian greed creed. "It's all about ME!"

We had them in my union. Same type of bu$hit. They listened to the conservanazi bu$hit all day.

[BlueJac]

53. There you go folks......

you wanted it, now you got it. The Republicon wet dream has arrived!

[TxVietVet]

88. I say let them f*ck it all up. That's what they want to do.

Their ideas suck. They've never worked and they never will. conservanazis are full of hot air and bu$hit from druggie limpballs.

[sofa king]

54. I'm surprised, since they like to steal pension funds so much.

[lovuian]

57. Republicans ALWAYS screw the worker and kiss

the corporations Butt every time

[harun]

58. Everything in our society not directly contributing to Corporate Profits is "on the table".

[yurbud]

59. when are unions going to get it and push back HARD?

I'm in a teachers union, and if you even say the word STRIKE, the leadership, both local and statewide, acts like you just said FUCK in church.

We have few tools at our disposal, but strikes and refusing to implement laws that cut our own throats are a couple of them.

[Doctor_J]

65. As soon as the media is brought back into alignment with reality

And that's going to take a great deal of ugliness

[yurbud]

67. the ugliness has to be a strike so big, and a pushback against it so violent that they can't do a

news blackout for fear of being scooped by their competitors.

[No Passaran]

60. Hey, look who you voted for

suckers

[andym]

63. The Right's war on the Center to take us back to the 19th century. NT.

[Doctor_J]

64. We are very desperately in need

of a civil war.

[westerebus]

68. And they haven't burned the State House down, yet?

What a bunch of slackers.

I can hear the Band in the back ground singing,

The night they drove old Dixie down,

The people were singing....

[get the red out]

69. Slander indeed

All you hear in Kentucky is how horrible public employees are and such. My Sister and Brother-in-Law both work for the state and every year my Brother-in-Law, a forester, is out busting his ass fighting dangerous fires that these idiots without two brain cells to rub together start (whether intentional or by accident), and my Sister hasn't had a job at the state where she didn't work her ass off either. Their health insurance has already gone downhill so far that co-pays on surgeries can be outrageous. But slandering public employees is the way to go these days.

Disgusting. Attacking common people trying to provide for their families. This state has gone completely to hell, bunch of teabagging fools sucking up to their rich masters.

[eringer]

71. Public Workers Will Find Other Ways to Save For Retirement

Just like they did before getting a pension, public workers will again resort to taking bribes and stealing inventory. Heavy tippers will get their garbage picked up by these "new" federal workers several times a week while everyone else will be on a once every two week schedule. The money Kentucky saves will be eaten up in hiring more IG auditors who, because they lack a pension plan, will also be on the take. There will be a flight from this state by the state retirees to states where they are welcome and treated as human beings and not human waste.

[Go2Peace]

101. You summarized the future of the US if we keep going in this direction

[lonestarnot]

72. Hey Kentucky Senate! You are total assholes who supportt/represent no one but the rich, thefeore

you suck ass!

[RoccoR5955]

76. War on Civil Servants is in full force

They are doing what Norquist said he wanted to do in the 80s (I think it was the 80s). They want to get government down to a size smaller than a bathtub, and then drown it.

I hope that these civil servants in Kentucky are union, and their union gives a good fight. They gave up a lot of bargaining power to get pensions. I hope that they are compensated in some way.

This seems to me as a run for the pension money by the financial speculators. They see all this money out there, and they want more of it.

It's high time that WE THE PEOPLE waged an all out war on the ultra rich, and their lackeys.

[Historic NY]

77. Wow, work 20yrs and then get shit when the 401k tanks.........

I'm sure thousands of people will want these jobs.

[quakerboy]

80. Just a thought here

Why did we ever get into company/budget based pensioning?

Why are pensions not a totally independent pre-funded thing, already paid into by the corps/govts, sitting off the balance sheets and out of the control of anyone except the people who earned them?


I guess I would ask the same of social security. Why isn't that a completely independent organization, completely delineated from the general budget?

[TxVietVet]

90. I'm sure I'm not going to have all the answers but

Lots of American companies carried pensions for personnel. Then about the time cut-and-run raygun became president, things started changing. It became an asset of some companies and then during the process of mergers and acquisitions, those assets were confiscated or those obligations fell by the wayside, some with the excuse "we can't pay for that. It was a promise someone in the past made. It's not our (the new owner) obligation." If you can find a history of the PBGB (Pension Benefit Guarantee Board?), most corporations were let off the hook on paying that insurance for pension insurance. It's a story that needs to be told. Now, today, under the GATT rules/treaty/bu$hit, pensions in corporations have changed and are now backed by corporate bonds which will probably end up being shit.
I may be wrong but I'm willing to be someone in this forum can clear a lot of this up about how our pensions changed over the last 30 years.

[AtheistCrusader]

95. SS is delineated from the federal budget.

Paths only cross when the Federal Government borrows against social security. It's called an 'Intragovernmental Holding'. It's taking a loan out against Social Security, instead of by bonds to another country.

It's how the total national debt can go up, even when the budget deficit was as low as 17bn for one year under Clinton.

[quakerboy]

107. Its not as far as CNN is concerned, as per some infographic they put up this afternoon.

I get what you are saying, and I suppose you are technically correct, but it is obviously not all that separate when the president can get a reduction in the tax for it relatively easily, Particularly when he can say it will be made up out of the general budget.

[Enthusiast]

114. It is not just CNN.

Nearly every word from the media says the same thing -that social security is responsible for the deficit. This is a coordinated propaganda effort. That this is being done on such a scale should be alarming.

[quakerboy]

140. Yup. Even on "progressive talk" Radio

Their news bit about the Obama's news conference today mentioned that he had proposed a budget with cuts, Boner had proposed a budget with more cuts, but that neither of them had done anything to deal with the largest portion of the budget spending "medicare and social security"

The fight is on. And we are not winning, best I can tell.

[Hannah Bell]

82. fuck the locusts.

[alp227]

94. Yikes. More extreme than what Meg Whitman proposed in CA.

Let's see, Kentucky can afford to subsidize a creationist theme park but not help the working class/middle class live? Hell I bet that the richest state residents (e.g. Rand Paul) get big tax breaks too.

[trud]

97. I worked in the private sector.

Do I have a pension? No. Do I have crushing property taxes to support the school/town/state employees who get 80% of their salary pensions if they retire in their 40s? Yes.

Do teachers in general do a good job today? No. Look at the results - uninformed idiots with high school diplomas.

Time to stop ripping taxpayers off.

[Go2Peace]

102. Nice distortions friend. Avg teacher retirement is 58-60. Try google for some truth instead of fox

http://www.google.com/search?q=average+teacher+retirement+age

[trud]

118. not in RI, taxpayer ripoff capital of the country.

Just had a new plumber at my house a few weeks ago. Obviously fit guy who just retired with a full pension in his forties, now racking in the pension and a salary as a plumber, he told me.

By the way, I don't have a television, so I've never seen Fox. Nor do I listen to talk radio. I get my "paper news" from various local newspapers and the New York Times.

[JustAmused]

149. I think you spelled that wrong

Unless I am wrong, our wise friend trud transposed the two middle letters of their screen name.

[olegramps]

122. You are blowing pure bullshit.

[we can do it]

145. Eat Shit and Die

[we can do it]

146. You spelled turd wrong

[Chipster]

103. Trifecta?

KY, OH, WI -

[blackspade]

104. No mention of the wall street theft that has left pension plans

in the lurch.
How about these senate assholes forgo their pensions and health insurance?
unreal.

[mackerel]

106. People today must think that worker rights in this country

came about because employers wanted to be fair and just to their
workers. LOL

[Enthusiast]

115. Corporations are benevolent.

They will treat us better once the yoke of unions is removed from their neck.

[blackspade]

125. Yes, the hob-nailed boot is much more comfortable

[democracy1st]

108. K & R

[Solly Mack]

116. K&R

[SHRED]

121. What about Social Security?

Did they forgo that?
Many public retirement plans (mine) do not participate in Social Security.
They have to have one or the other legally.

How do current pensioners get the kitty replenished considering it is an insurance pool that is losing input?

The article is vague at best.


--

[MasonJar]

123. Needless to say the Kentucky Senate is Republican. Hopefully the

Democratic House will not pass such legislation.

[raccoon]

124. I. can't .believe. it. K&R. nt

[EnviroBat]

126. Further evidence that what I have been fearing is coming to fruition.

Regardless of the party. There is a plan in motion to gouge away at the citizens of this country. The end game, reducing ALL of our wages to that of the third-world populations of the countries that these rich, greedy bastards are seeking to do business with. Welcome to the "Global Economy" boys and girls. It means that you and I become fodder for the machine which doesn't give a shit about you standard of living, and in fact, seeks to lower it in any way it can. Equal playing field and all that bullshit.

It's time boys and girls, to take to the streets just as the people of Egypt have done. To strike, to have a day when we all just stay home. To stop paying bills, (collectively). To cause a financial panic. To get their attention and let them know that we've had enough of this shit. The time is now. These assholes think they are just going to blow this one right over our heads and we'll just sit back and take it.

I'm ready... How about you?

Envirobat, (State of Ohio Employee with a retirement pension. At least for now.)

[Blue_Tires]

127. If Kentucky thinks the cops and firemen will just lie back and take this

then they really are on another planet...

[tavalon]

130. And the hits keep coming

I sure am glad this isn't a Republican administration.

[TomClash]

131. To answer your question to the wingnuts

There are few private sector pensions. Most people have 401(K)s, SEP-IRAs or similar accounts that they pay into and the employers match to a limited degree or not at all. That's why the Republicans will probably be able to get away with this.

[Lance_Boyle]

132. Says pretty clearly this is for new hires only.

So anyone who's been banking on their pension for 30+ years (or even 1 day) of employment is not impacted by the proposed change.

Not saying I agree with the idea, but the OP is a bit alarmist and more than a bit disingenuous to claim that it will harm currently-employed state and local workers.

[RedCloud]

133. Government bashing means more corrupt business pactices go unnoticed.

[perdita9]

134. Chickens Voting for Colonel Sanders

That's what Americans are every time they vote for Republicans.

[mainer]

135. We are in a race to the bottom.

First private industry slashes pensions. And now government says, "hey, they're doing it, so should we!"

Employers are looking to each other to see who can cut a little more away from the safety net, so they can match it.

[sarcasmo]

141. The Republicans are trying to destroy the unions and are doing a number on them.

[StarsInHerHair]

143. so they want to cut Kentucky back to the stone age

nt

[defendandprotect]

148. We need to stop thinking that we have a corrupted FEW in government -- !!!

Entire government has been corrupted!!

[Evasporque]

152. but they won't touch lawmaker pensions or benefits.....nt