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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-11 07:40 AM
Original message
Germany calls up last conscripts as army is reformed
Source: BBC

Germany's final batch of conscripts are beginning their military service ahead of a radical overhaul of the country's armed forces.

Some 12,000 recruits have been called up - the last before conscription ends altogether on 1 July. The German government is seeking to make the armed forces smaller and more focussed, with professional soldiers.

Correspondents say the changes are the biggest since the German military was reformed after World War II.

Last year Germany announced it would suspend conscription and transform the military, or Bundeswehr, into a fully professional army. That process would see the size of the standing army reduced from 240,000 to around 185,000 soldiers.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12106856
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JustABozoOnThisBus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-11 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. These 12000 were so close to escaping service
To be drafted in the last batch... a bunch of people cursing their bad luck.

Yikes.

:hi:
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howard112211 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-11 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
2. Everybody in Germany is applauding this, from right to left, but...
Edited on Mon Jan-03-11 08:49 AM by howard112211
...I think the bottom line is, this will make waging war much easier. The reform comes as a byproduct of the Afghan war, when one realised that the conscripts were essentially a waste of money, since they cannot be deployed anywhere. They would rather spend the money on a military that can be used, and they will likely be using it more freely once the transition is through.

The conscription is a remnant of the cold war times, where one was expecting to need a million man infantry as cannon fodder when the Russians attack. Today, we would rather have internationally operating hit squads. Different times, different needs.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-11 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. As a whole, Conscripts, if properly motivated, are better then Volunteers
Notice, the catch phase, if properly motivated. The chief problems with Draftees is they are best motivated by how the military action benefits how the people back home live, NOT how the rulers what to live. The best example of this is Ancient Rome. Rome used a "draftee" army to defeat Hannibal and then to defeat Macedonia to become the major power in Greece (and by defeating both Hannibal and Macedonia became the sole super power of its time).

After the above victories, the Roman Elites wanted more, but found that the Roman Citizen saw no benefit for them in those wars of aggression. The Slaves the wars produced reduced the wages of the poor Roman Citizens (and the money permitted the rich to take over the land of the poor and then work those lands with Slaves). Thus in the Third Punic War, where Rome do to the urging of Cato the elder, destroyed Carthage so the Roman elite could take over the African Trade (which provided no benefit to the Roman Poor) the poor basically went through the motions of serving (It took three years to do what their grandfathers would have done in three months, but that is the difference between an motivated Army and an unmotivated Army).

As the Second Century BC Continued, the situation of the Draftee Roman Army went down hill even further (and Fear of the Draftee Army spread among the Roman Elite for the draftees support of the Reforms of the Grachaii). Marius turned the Roman Army into a Mercenary Army so to recruit and motivate the men who served under him. Sulla then took that Mercenary Army and established the First Roman life time Dictatorship (In which Marius, who was of the "people" ended up being executed by Sulla).

The Key to Marius Reforms was that recruited "Volunteers" not draftees who would do as they were paid to do. Sulla just paid his men to march on Rome and make him the Dictator of Rome. This Mercenary Army became the Army of the Late Republic as various Roman Senators raised their own Armies and looted the Mediterranean World while keeping the peasants down in Italy itself. This lead to increased tension in Rome, a class struggle where the poor were stripped of their ability to organize into any form of Resistance (Arms were NOT a concern, those could be produced as needed, what was feared was people willing to be organized to fight, such an organize poor would over throw the Roman Elite so every effort was made to make sure the poor stayed divided).

Caesar stepped into this mess as the High Priest of Rome (Which included controlled of the Bridges in Rome AND control of what we would call "News sources", thus the reason for his "Commentaries" which were designed to be read to the Common People of Rome by Roman Priests and other readers to show how he was supporting Rome and them). Caesar took his Mercenary Army, after looting Gaul of all of its Gold, and made himself Dictator of Rome. He has support of the poor so had a stronger hold on the country then Sulla had 30 years before, thus when he died, the poor made sure his successor, Octavian, took over (While Mark Anthony's first wife was making sure Caesar's troops received their pay, including any pension the troops were entitled to, an act Octavian support her in doing).

Anyway, notice how the Army became more and more important as to who ruled the Roman Empire, as its ability to fight declined. The Army of Caesar could not have defeated Hannibal for Caesar would have run out of Money to pay them while before he engaged Hannibal (Hannibal's Army were all Mercenaries, and were driven out of Italy by Roman Draftees by the Draftees determination to drive him out, no matter how many time they lost, a concept Hannibal had trouble accepting, it took him 16 years when he finally realized he could NOT conquer Italy and thus left Italy to defend Carthage from Scipio's Draftee army, which smashed Hannibal's Mercenary Army at the Battle of Zama).

The key to getting a Draftee army motivated is to get the poor and working class at home to support whatever the draftee Army is doing. If the poor and working class oppose the war (Is both do today not only in the US but in Germany) then the army will do a very poor job. If, on the other hand the Draftee Army is doing what the poor and working class wants done, then it will do the job quite well. The US Army did quite well in Vietnam, till the majority of Americans came to oppose the war in 1968, then the US Draftee army went into a rapid decline (The US had to pull out of Vietnam by 1972 do to how bad the US army had become by that date). People tend to forget that the Majority of Americans supported the war in Vietnam till the middle of 1968, it is only in the middle of 1968 that you had the majority of Americans against the War (and the worse Anti-War protests were under Nixon, elected in 1968, not LBJ who was president 1963-1969, through under LBJ you did have some Anti-War protests).

I am concentrating on Draftee (Universals Military Service) vs Volunteer (Mercenary) armies and only mention the opposition to a war to explain why a Draftee Army was viewed as "failing" while a Mercenary Army was viewed as succeeding. Germany has had a problem since the end of the Soviet Union, Germany does not see itself going to war with any of its near neighbors, thus an army designed to fight on the plains of Central Europe is an army no longer needed by Germany. On the other hand, an army designed to go to Afghanistan has no support among the German people, thus a draftee army to be sent "overseas" has no support and will do poorly when sent "overseas" (i.e. outside of Central Europe). Thus the switch to a all volunteer army, an army that can be motivated by pay and thus sent anywhere in the world even if the Germany people oppose the move.

Side-Note. Every army has had mercenaries, The Romans hired Spanish Horsemen during the wars with Hannibal. The US Pilots of Vietnam were all Volunteers (as where the Special forces of the time period). Some of these volunteers volunteer AFTER being Drafted (if they had to serve, better to serve in a branch of the services they wanted to serve in rather then be assigned into a branch). Thus Mercenaries have their place even in all volunteer armies, but they can NOT be what you depend on when its comes to strength vs Strength, Mercenaries are notorious for disappearing before such fights (Generally do to a lack of pay) if there is nothing else to take the blow. Thus the above comments is NOT to use any mercenaries, but that the main part of your troops can NOT be mercenaries UNLESS you make sure they are NEVER place in a position where the choice is to between they personnel well being AND the Country they are protecting (in such a choice the Mercenaries will support whoever is able to pay them). Thus as colonial troops, mercenaries have excellent reputations, for they are never sent in if the other side has a decent chance of winning (either the mercenaries never agree to go in, or go in go through the motions of fighting and then retreat and demand they pay). Thus Europe in its expansion into Africa in the 1800s used almost only Mercenary troops (The fame of the French Foreign Legion is from this time period and it is the Classic Mercenary unit), while keeping the troops intended for use in Europe as draftees (England was an exception to this rule, but it is an island and as long as it had the largest fleet an invasion by foreign troops was unlikely).

Just a comment on why Germany is doing this switch, it reflects that the German elite wants an army it can send anywhere in the world and be effective even if the German people oppose sending the troops. You can do that with volunteers-mercenaries but not draftee troops and thus the real reason for the switch. This has the risk of making it easier for Germany to intervene in wars that its former dependence on a Draftee army made impossible, something we should regret more then praise.

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howard112211 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-11 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Why, thanks for the history lesson.
That was essentially what I was saying: Germany wants an army of merceneries, rather than an army of draftees, so the rulers can send it wherever they want whenever they want.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-11 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Uummm, volunteers are mercenaries?
Does that apply here in the U.S. as well?
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-11 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. True Volunteers join no matter the pay
Except for times of crisis (Revolution, the Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam) is was rare for people to volunteer for service thus the US has always paid for such "Volunteers" especially in peace time. During the Indian wars the US did some imaginative accounting to keep the number of foreign born enlistees under 50% (This included including African Americans in the count of native born citizens, even if not allowed to enlist in most units, including the officers so to bring the native born numbers up AND if someone said he was "native born" he was marked "native born" even if his accent clearly showed he was not if that was required to keep the percentage below 50%). Foreign observers kept pointing out that at least 2/3rds if not 3/4 of all enlistees of that time period was foreign born.

After 1900, the percentage of US born soldiers increased do to the hard times of the time period and the increase pay of the Army do to its expanded role after the Spanish-American War (and to compete with the Navy that had switched from an over whelming post Civil War navy of mostly African American enlistees to one of white citizens starting in the 1880s).

During times of crisis US Citizens has always volunteer for service, but if no crisis exists (or it is a crisis that the American people do NOT believe is best resolved by Military means) such volunteers do NOT enlist.

Now, when the US went from a draftee army to an "all volunteer army" in the 1970s, the Army had a problem getting people to enlist. Thus bonuses were offered and pay was increased. Thus people enlisted in the Army NOT to serve but for the money and the training (which is a form of pay). Thus by the definition of a mercenary as someone who enlist for money, US Military Volunteers meant that definition. I know people do NOT like that definition when it comes to the US Army, but the US Army, except for 1942-1972 had been a mercenary army except during actual wartime (WWI, the Civil War, and even the Revolution had draftees serve in the US Army). People do not like hearing that but that is what the US Army has been more often then not (and in actual real wars, such mercenaries were found wanting and draftees were draftees to file in the ranks during actual full scale wars).
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-11 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I think the professionalism of the current military...
may arguably disprove your assertion. YMMV.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-11 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. No one ever called Mercenaries non-professionals
But that they are doing their jobs in the military for pay and if pay was cut to zero they would quit. That is the classic situations with mercenaries, most have been professionals, in fact even draftee armies need so many professionals within their structure to work. These professionals were and are paid for their professional services and as such serve for pay which makes them Mercenaries.

You just do not like the idea that the US Army has been a "Professional" "Volunteer" and "Mercenary" army since 1972. The US Army was the same from 1919-1941, from 1865-1917, and from 1784-1863. At the time of the Revolution the Army should be viewed as "mixed" for it was supplemented by Militia at time of severe crisis but during winter and other non-combat time periods reduced to its Professional/Mercenary corp (or providing a corp of Professional troops the Militia could rally around in times of battle).

No one is calling the present US Army unprofessional (Such a claim has has been made against the Mercenaries hired under private Contract in Iraq, but those mercenaries are NOT under the command of the US Military).

People today do NOT join the US Army to have a good time, they join it for the pay (Which can include training). I am just pointing out, that well the US Army is more native born then it was in the late 1800s, no one is calling the US Army dangerous to the Republic at the present time. It is professional, it is during what it was hired to do in Iraq and Afghanistan. A Draftee army could NOT do what the present US Army has done in both places, but then if the US had a Draftee Army the rejection of both wars by the majority of Americans would have forced a withdraw of the Draftee army from both countries (either through an election or a rapid decline in the Draftee Army as seen in Vietnam 1968-1972).

As I said above, no one is calling today's army unprofessional, through the quality of the troops enlisting had declined in the last ten years. Most African Americans stopped enlisting in 2002 and have not resumed enlistments, forcing the US Army to rely more and more on Rural Whites. Suburbanites did not enlist even in 1972 any where near the numbers of Inner City African Americans and Rural Whites and thus Rural Whites are the chief target of must US Army recruiters today. Do to the drop in African American Enlistments the overall quality of US troops has declined. This reduction in quality has affected the US Army, but not to the degree opposition to the War in Vietnam destroyed the Draftee Army of 1968.

This started as a thread on Germany switching from a Draftee Army to a "Volunteer" army, an army whose recruits will be obtain with promises of pay. Such offers of pay is the main key to recruiting for the US Army today. Troops agreeing to serve in exchange for pay is the definition of being a Mercenary. Just because we do NOT want to use that term does not mean it does not fit. Furthermore a Mercenary Army can be effective and professional (in many ways more then a Draftee Army can be) the key difference is does the people identify with the Army? And does the Army identify with the people? With a Universal Service Draftee Army that is almost always the case for by the use of the Draft the People and the Army are one and the same. With a non-universal Military volunteer for pay army (see I can avoid using the term Mercenary when I want to) there is a difference between the two, they are kept apart and separate and often from different classes of people. The Army and the People stop seeing each other as being one and the same and come to look at each other as enemies. This is what happen in the Late Roman Republic and stayed that way through the Roman Empire.

Side note: The separation of peasants and soldiers did not end in Europe till the Eastern Roman Empire reformed its Army around 610 AD do to the need to raise more troops to defeat the Persian invasion of that time period. The Roman reforms included requiring everyone who owned land to serve in the Army, restoring the idea that the people and the Army are one and the same. The key to the reform was to assign army units to farming district and then assigning the men to individual farms. The family could retain the farm if the son succeeded his father into the Army. The people and the Army became one and the same again after almost 700 years of being two different classes within the Roman Empire. This stayed a tradition within the Byzantine Empire till its fall in 1453 AND was adopted by the Turks as their replaced the Byzantine Empire after the Seizure of Constantinople in 1204 by the Fourth Crusade.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-11 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Well, except for the fact....
that there are many reasons to serve along side and besides (in spite of...) the pay.

If it was only about money, there are jobs that pay better with the same or less element of risk (i.e. getting shot at).

Mercenaries will generally quit if the risk/reward ratio gets too out-of-balance. Professional militaries do not have/will not take that option. (Note: Surrender is vastly different than quitting because you aren't getting paid enough to risk having your ass shot.) If you do not see the moral/ethical/social differences, I am sorry for you.



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