Soon To-Be Ex-Congressman John Hall Warns Against Creeping Fascism ("The country was bought")

[kpete]

Source: New York Observer

Soon To-Be Ex-Congressman John Hall Warns Against Creeping Fascism

By David Freedlander
December 28, 2010 | 5:03 p.m

In a wide-ranging interview before he prepares to leave the House of Representatives, Hudson Valley Congressman John Hall warned that the nation could quickly descend into Fascism if more is not done to curb the influence of corporate money in politics.

Speaking about the Citizen's United decision, which allowed unregulated flow of cash into campaign coffers, Hall said, "I learned when I was in social studies class in school that corporate ownership or corporate control of government is called Fascism. So that's really the question— is that the destination if this court decision goes unchecked?"

Hall said that the flow of corporate dollars is why he and the Democrats lost control of Congress.

"The country was bought," he said. "The extremist, most recent two appointees to the Supreme Court, who claimed in their confirmation hearings before the Senate that they would not be activist judges, made a very activist decision in that it overturned more than a century of precedent. And as a result there were millions of extra dollars thrown into this race."

Read more: http://www.observer.com/2010/politics/soon-be-ex-congressman-john-hall-warns-against-creeping-fascism

[xchrom]

1. Recommend

[breadandwine]

66. Meanwhile, no one has done Jack Spit about the electronic election rigging.

Obama's state vote totals were far below the exit polls in 2008. He should have won by more. The same with Kerry in 2004. He got far more votes than the servers indicated.

But our DLC president was busy putting mention of touch screen voting right into his speech as he won, as if it was all fine. He is surrounded by DLCers and Beltway idiots who have no idea what is going on.

It seems that we will enter fascism with a whimper, not a bang and no one will complain. There are riots in Europe. In America there is Prozac.

Obama is embracing ideas that a few years ago every Democrat would say are lunacy. Anything to look "relevant." He will do anything the media tells him to, ignoring the fact that the media is as much the enemy as the GOP and you can't win them over. You have to fight. He won't. Our whole party won't fight. They got rid of Howard Dean and are just whistling in the graveyard.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

73. And what about the 2010 elections?

eg, I just cannot believe the results of the Senate race in Wisconsin...especially certain precincts and counties.

[sce56]

106. The only place the Dems did not lose was Calif! SOS Debra Bowen kept the machines clean!

That was the big difference in the last election!

[No Elephants]

148. Dems did not lose in Mass. either.

[Enthusiast]

153. +1 I believe it!

Srsly.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

162. Exactly - and how likely is that?

EVERYWHERE else, the stinking pubs "won" despite what they have done over the past decade? Praise Debra Bowen. It is freaking criminal that the other SOS's do not do the same thing. I'm thorougly disgusted by the general public's complacence and compliance, too...

[crazyjoe]

91. The corporate media is ignoring probably because the republicans

played it well. They lost control of the congress in 2006, and then got their asses handed to them in 2008, they are very very sneaky the way they control the machine results and make it look like they don't have control by LOSING all the time.
Evil geniuses.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

108. IF WE HAD A REAL JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.. REPUBS WOULD BE JAILED

SOME OF THE FOULEST PEOPLE EVER BORN.

:argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh:

[Enthusiast]

154. Plus one.

Evil sum bitches!

[A wise Man]

147. Great truth there....

but the most amazing fact is this. From 2000 to 2006 under bush and the rethugs most of the laws were to disable the poor and middle class...the most corrupt government administration in the history of this country, yet they put them back in office in 2010. THIS COUNTRY HAS LOST THEIR MINDS...DIGGING A HOLE NOW READY TO JUMP IN IT.

[wordpix]

174. Hall might head the NY "Dept. of Environmental Conversation." Hopefully it's not all talk, no action

"Hall declined to comment on his future plans. Rumors have been floating around that he is up for a job in the Obama administration or with soon-to-be Governor Andrew Cuomo, possibly as head of the Department of Environmental Conversation. "

[me b zola]

2. K&R

[Ruperto31]

60. Let's be clear. We do not have "creeping fascism."

We are headed toward a right-wing authoritarian state. But not all right-wing authoritarian states are fascist. When the generals took over in Argentina and Brazil, these countries had right-wing authoritarian regimes, but not fascism. Fascism requires a mass movement, usually based in the middle class. Chile under Pinochet was a fascist state. So was Spain under Franco, Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini.

We do not have a fascist movement in the US. The Teabaggers are idiots, but they are are not fascists. So the correct thing to say is that there is creeping right-wing authoritarianism in the US, not "creeping fascism."

This is an important distinction, and not just a verbal quibble.

[fasttense]

63. It is my understanding that to be named fascism, the corporations or business entities must

control the government. It is the corporate money and corporate influence that is the problem. The teabaggers are not fascistic. The creeping militaristic state is not fascism. Fascism is the merging of business and state interests to the practical exclusion of the interests of labor.

I don't believe that a "mass" or people's movement is required. It merely requires a handful of excessively wealthy owners of businesses and corporations to connive (there are only about 300 of them) with political leaders to take over and destroy democracy.

[Ruperto31]

71. The fascist mass movement is always funded by big business.

Yes, fascism is "capitalism gone nude," where big business controls the country through a dictator. But there is always a mass movement supporting it.
The mass base is always in the middle class, with some help from the lumpenproletariat. If you want to call all right-wing, capitalist controlled authoritarian governments "fascism," you can. But that's not what fascism is. Fascism is a special animal and needs special treatment.

[liberation]

72. I am sorry, but how exactly is that "mass movement" defined?

What were the "mass movements" in Germany, Italy, Spain, or Chile? Remember that Hitler technically did not win the election, and the brown shirts were as politically adept as modern day teabaggers are.

[Ruperto31]

75. Read some history.

Sorry, I can't be responsible for your entire political education on this subject. I don't get paid for this.

[liberation]

77. So basically, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Thanks.

[Ruperto31]

80. That's false and offensive. Just look up "fascism" and you'll see I'm right.

There's no need to be abusive. We are only having a discussion.

[Uncle Joe]

89. Just look up the word "creeping," or better I'll post it here for your reading convenience.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/creeping

"creeping"

2. to approach slowly, imperceptibly, or stealthily (often fol. by up ): We crept up and peeked over the wall.

3. to move or advance slowly or gradually: The automobile crept up the hill. Time just seems to creep along on these hot summer days.

4. to sneak up behind someone or without someone's knowledge (usually fol. by up on ): The prisoners crept up on the guard and knocked him out.

5. to enter or become evident inconspicuously, gradually, or insidiously (often fol. by in or into: ) The writer's personal bias occasionally creeps into the account.

8. to advance or develop gradually so as to infringe on or supplant something else: creeping inflation; creeping socialism.

You spoke in an earlier post about fascism requiring a mass movement, well this recent decision by the SC will make mobilizing a corporate centric mass movement all the easier as they can saturate the mass media with false or misleading propaganda even more than they already do.

[Ruperto31]

94. "Creeping fascism" is wrong. "Creeping corporate control" is better.

Still, you're right that allowing corporations to anonymously give as much as they want to candidates' campaigns may helpt to set the stage for a fascist movement.

[Uncle Joe]

98. "Fascism"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Fascism (pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology.<1><2><3><4> Fascists seek to organize a nation according to corporatist perspectives, values, and systems, including the political system and the economy.<5><6> Fascism was originally founded by Italian national syndicalists in World War I who combined extreme Sorelian syndicalist political views along with nationalism.<7><8><9> Though normally described as being on the far right, there is a scholarly consensus that fascism was influenced by both the left and the right.<10><11><12><7><13>

Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong.<14> They claim that culture is created by the collective national society and its state, that cultural ideas are what give individuals identity, and thus they reject individualism.<14> Viewing the nation as an integrated collective community, they see pluralism as a dysfunctional aspect of society, and justify a totalitarian state as a means to represent the nation in its entirety.<15><16>

They advocate the creation of a single-party state.<17> Fascist governments forbid and suppress opposition to the fascist state and the fascist movement.<18> They identify violence and war as actions that create national regeneration, spirit and vitality.<19>

There are different sub-definitions of fascism but the difference between "creeping corporate control" and "creeping fascism" is as splitting hairs on a Gnat's ass.

[JDPriestly]

123. Uncle Joe, by your definition, we are already a fascist nation.

We pretend to have two parties, but we really don't.

[Uncle Joe]

163. The keyword is "creeping" and I do believe the current dynamic is taking us in that direction,

far more so than in the direction of socialism.

Citizens United virtually assures corporate supremacy over the government, the limitless inflow of money will increasingly stack the deck in favor of corporate supremacists. As for the two parties, mega-corporations own the Republican Party and they dominate the Democratic Party.

We're not hard core dictator fascist yet, but laws passed over the past decade and some political philosophies ie: Unitary Executive, the promotion of torture and execution without any judicial oversight have certainly taken us in that direction.

The continuous diminishing of individual privacy while everything under the sun is classified for "We the people's" government make accountability and true representative democracy all the more difficult. How can the people make intelligent choices when critical issues or embarrassing information is either "classified" or compromised by a conflict of interest laden corporate media?

People are saying if the President or even Vice-President does it, it's ok, such is the case with defenders of Cheney/Bush in outing a covert CIA Agent and by extension her company; whose job it supposedly was to monitor nuclear proliferation, putting their lives at risk.

In spite of the previous Administration's violations of the Geneva Conventions, promotion of torture, and war crimes, we're just "looking forward" kicking the can down the road, as if that will have no consequences. The same holds true for not impeaching Roberts and Alito for their perjury to Congress during their confirmation hearings, re: their so called respect for precedent.

[Ruperto31]

185. Creeping authoritarianism, yes. Creeping fascism, not yet.

No mass movement--unless you count the teabaggers, who are wusses.

[Uncle Joe]

198. Six in one or half a dozen in the other.

The mass movement follows the propaganda, and brainwashing, not the other way around.

The teabaggers would be nothing without continuous corporate media promotion, meanwhile movements and protests of much larger scale were treated as a tree falling in the forest with no one there to hear it.

[liberation]

102. Look up "projection"

or if psychology is too advanced of a subject, just check the meaning of "hypocrite" in your nearest dictionary.

BTW, you're too obvious now.

[awoke_in_2003]

86. "business entities must control the government"...

they do and have for some time. The scene on the Hill is just bread and circus- a facade to make up believe we are still a republic.

[Salander]

170. You are exactly right! Both Roosevelt & Mussolini defined fascism this way.

A mass movement comes, perhaps, later. A thin middle class of bureaucrats, NSA workers, police and military defend the super-rich. They become "the house niggers," as Malcolm said. The rest of us are "the field niggers."

[Ruperto31]

194. A middle class mass movement is an essential part of fascism

It doesn't "come later." It's how Hitler got into power. Mussolini, too. And Franco.

God, with ignorance like this, the fascists will have a field day. You won't even recognize it when you see it.

[liberation]

65. I disagree

The quote by Mussolini regarding the definition of fascism as corporatism seems to be overused, but it is apropos in this case. Fascism proponents shaw the duty of the government as the protection of corporate interests even if when they interfere or diminish the interests of the individual. Granted their definition of "corporation" was slightly different from what we understand as modern corporate culture in the US today.

Here are the main tenets of fascism: Nationalism, Authoritarianism, Single party state, Dictatorship, Social Darwinism, Social/Economic interventionism, Indoctrination/Propaganda, Anti-intellectualism, Class/Racial Eugenics, Heroism, Militarism, Anti-communism.

American society presents plenty of those characteristics to worry anyone taking an actual intellectual honest stock of where we're at. And it is not a new thing in the least BTW. Fascism got a bad rap after WWII, and dully so, but most people miss the two big fasces in the chamber of congress ;-)

[Ruperto31]

74. Fascists lie. So quoting them doesn't help to define fascism.

For example, the Nazis called themselves "national socialists" to try to get some support from the working class. But as I suppose you know, they were not socialists at all.

Fascism needs to be defined by historical experience. And if you look at history, you will see a big difference between the right wing pro capitalist countries without a mass movement and those that had a mass movement. The distinction is important so that people can understand how to fight fascism.

The fasces are just an old Roman symbol of authority, used by many governments. The axe and the rods are symbols of punishment. The US dime used to have one on it, but no more.

[liberation]

76. How convenient...

BTW, those characteristics of "fascism" were not defined by fascists but historians. Ironic since you are now referring to "historical experience." You are using terms like "mass movement" over and over as if that was the defining characteristic of fascism, which it is not. If you have a personal definition, so be it. But I think we will then go on circles then.

I think you missed the point I was trying to make with the fascia, and why it is important. Remember that words mean things, and FASCIsm and FASCIa share the same root.

Cheers.

[Ruperto31]

81. Convenient.? No, true. Look up "fascism."

It's really sad to see how many people in this forum don't know what it is.

[liberation]

103. Indeed.

you, for example, don't seem to have much of a clue. BTW, shouldn't you take your own advice first? I am willing to bet that if you look up "fascism" you're going to be very surprised. Let me help you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism


Of course, the whole internet is lying... so I am sure it is all a ploy to make you look bad.

Cheers.

[JDPriestly]

124. I think that the extreme right was hoping to start a mass movement

when they began to organize the Tea-Baggers.

[No Elephants]

150. Tea Party conceived and funded by Koch brothers.

[Ruperto31]

184. Yep. So why do I think the tea party is not a fascist movement?

It has a lot of the earmarks, including, as you pointed out, funding from billionaires. I guess it just seems too gentle for me. I'd call the teabaggers "proto-fascists." If they ever got together with the militias, that would be a full-fledged fascist movement.

I'm just astonished at the political ignorance in this thread. I don't mean you. But there are actually people who didn't know that Hitler and Franco had mass movements supporting them!

With this level of political understanding, the fascists will find it easy to defeat the left.

[awoke_in_2003]

87. "Single party state"...

well, we just about have that one right now.

[Ruperto31]

188. Of course corporatism is a part of fascism. But that's not all.

But you can also have corporatism (i.e., corporate control of the government) without fascism. Countries like Brazil and Argentina have had this form of authoritarian dictatorship. Singapore is also like this. But this, by itself, does not constitute fascism. There must also be a mass movement. It's a very simple point. Authoritarian capitalist controlled dictatorships are the big circle. Fascism is the little circle inside it.

The point is not just a semantic one. It has everything to do with how to fight fascism. The struggle against a coup by right wing tools of the capitalist class (Argentina, Brazil) must take a different form from the struggle against an authoritarian regime with mass support.

[sulphurdunn]

68. I dunno.

When the same revolving door goes round and round for powerful people who make careers advancing their interests alternately in business and politics, that's fascism. Authoritarianism is, I believe, much to broad a term to apply to what's happened here in the last thirty years.

[freshwest]

115. How about galloping corporatism? Does that describe the move to privatization?

[Ruperto31]

195. Yes.

[Enthusiast]

155. We have creeping fascism

and we have it now.

[Ruperto31]

186. You don't know what fascism is. The ignorance in this thread is stunning.

If this reflects the level of political understanding on what passes for the left in this country, the fascists will have an easy victory when they appear on the scene.

[JustAmused]

196. Why do you have no profile?

When people are purposely insulting, and then tell others not to get personal, I usually look at their profiles....before I put them on ignore. Where is yours?

[silver10]

169. The great majority of the idiots who are teabaggers are middle class

ironically. And with the large wins the repukes experienced for Congress in 2010, mostly helped by the low- and middleclass teabaggers (with the corporate PR machine behind them), and the Supreme Court Justices (protecting corporate interests, their base) I definitely call this fascism.

But we are splitting hairs - right-wing fascists - they all suck.

[wordpix]

172. recall that fascism under Hitler had a propaganda machine 2nd to none

Faux News/Glenn Blech, anyone?

[The Backlash Cometh]

3. Blame every Democratic congressperson who voted for Alito and Roberts.

[xchrom]

4. i can't disagree with that.

those two lied during their hearings - and it was one of those oddly obvious moments that leaves one wondering.

[The Backlash Cometh]

6. There were no penalties for lying.

If Supreme Court Justices can do it, so can everybody else.

[MissDeeds]

23. There is no accountability in this country

Apparently it's okay to commit war crimes, wage war on a country that did not attack us, steal elections, lie during Supreme Court confirmation hearings - the list goes on and on. It's all just standard operating procedure. We have to 'look forward'.

:mad:

[Wednesdays]

28. SURE there is accountability in this country

Just walk down the street in Waco with a joint in your hand. Betcha within 15 minutes you'll see accountability served.

[femrap]

33. If anyone had a spine in DC,

Johnny Bob Taliban and I-Lie-Too would be enduring Impeachment. But since they're all reptiles........

[AlbertCat]

127. If Supreme Court Justices can do it, so can everybody else.

Bush in the SOTU.... that got us into (another) war

Scooter.... and got convicted and endangered national security.



And of course the WORST lie of all.... Clinton's consensual sex with an adult of the opposite sex. The WORST I tell you!

[davidwparker]

15. and since the remedy would be impeachment and they

were not, it keeps one wondering.

I've heard one congressman talking about doing so, but so far ....

[xchrom]

21. here we go

http://www.progressive.org/wx091710.html

Feingold Slams Supreme Court over "Citizens United," Implies Roberts and Alito Lied Under Oath

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/cspanjunkie/senator-leahy-follows-presidents-lead

(Nicole:) Emboldened by Obama's criticism of the Citizens United v. FEC ruling during the SOTU address, the Senate head of the Judiciary Committee, Patrick Leahy (D-VT) lashed out at the Supreme Court, calling the 5 member conservative wing of the court "activists" and "extreme". He particularly calls Samuel "Not True Bobblehead" Alito out for doing exactly what he said a Supreme Court justice should not do during his confirmation hearing.

http://openleft.com/diary/21241/arlen-specters-last-little-bit-of-senatorial-crazy

CNN reports on Specter's last little contribution of Senatorial craziness--"Specter issues parting blow to Roberts, Alito". In it he blasts Roberts and Alito for their judicial activism, which is fair enough. But he acts surprised by it, which is downright nuts. Worse still, Specter bears a good deal of responsibility for perpetuating both rightwing judicial activism and the pretence that this somehow comes as some sort of surprise. Indeed, Specter has been one of the lont-time enablers of this process, though, of course, you'd never know that from CNN. Here's some of what they do report:


that's three senators all of whom agree that something other than the truth went on in the confirmation hearings.
and i believe plenty on the left were pointing out how these guys were pro corporate puppets and pointed to the existing evidence.

[Uncle Joe]

32. And since they weren't impeached and RomneyCare is forced down the people's throat by a

Democratic dominated government are what leads too many people to believe the keyword is collusion, not "bipartisanship."

[femrap]

34. That's it....

Compromissssssse = Collusion.

Now I understand. Thx.

[Uncle Joe]

35. Not necessarily, but it can be.

"Compromissssssse = Collusion."

[No Elephants]

157. Witth whom did Democrats have to "Compromissssssse" when they passed hcr by majority vote?

[Uncle Joe]

165. With the same forces that own the Republican Party, the mega-corporations, in this case

the for profit "health" insurance corporations.

The Democrats also knew the conflict of interest laden corporate media would make sure that their commercial buying for profit "health" insurance industry's best interests were protected with ample propaganda.

[femrap]

179. Certainly not with those they

repressssssssssent.

[fasttense]

64. I like the word connive. n/t

[Uncle Joe]

79. That's a good word too, but I chose collusion because it seems to fit the

general narrative.

From Webster's Dictionary.

collusion; "Specifically, in law, a secret understanding between two parties, who plead, testify, or proceed fraudulently against each other in order to defraud a third person."

I believe it all comes down to agency and who; is truly representing who's best interest?

The corporate media "mindlessly" parroted the critical importance of "bi-partisanship" when the Democrats held the upper hand and the media's commercial buying clients' fortunes were at stake. The actual merits, pro and cons of the arguments whether it was Universal Health Coverage for all the American People or the corrupting influence of money from the Supreme Court's precedent trashing, corporate supremacist promoting, decision are scarcely mentioned.

It seems to me and I believe a growing number of people, between the actions of the two Parties and the corporate media, the American People are increasingly viewed as the "third person" in that definition.

[Jefferson23]

85. +1000. n/t

[vanbean]

45. I believe you, but can you tell me exactly what they lied about?

[The Backlash Cometh]

51. The law, when practiced by ethical professionals, is based on the concept of

stare decisis. That means that you practice law based on decisions which have already been made. Those laws include past court decisions. When the two posers on the bench went through the review process, they were asked if they would respect stare decisis. Those were code words. If they had come up with a response like Borke did years back, saying that he would interpret the law in the way that the founding fathers had intended it, they would have known that they would not respect stare decisis, since stare decisis insures that the law is flexible enough to adjust to the times, but not easily usurped. The two posers lied because they did not respect precedent. That's it in a nutshell.

[vanbean]

84. Thank you very much. I appreciate your answer.

[NashVegas]

181. Bush Lied About Yellowcake and Everyone Knew It

But the lie gave people cover. Just like it did in this case.

[AndyTiedye]

44. Nuclear Option

The Repigs were going to change the rules if the Democrats filibustered any of Bush**'s nominees,
so we couldn't really have stopped them anyway.

[lark]

59. Not as bad as what really happened, is it?

What did the Dems filibuster afterwards that was meaningful? Anything? What could have been 1/2 as bad as the effects of Citizens United? Dems should have filibustered, then filibuster would have been ended, Bush left, and we'd maybe have single payer, not have tax breaks for millionaires, not have our trojan horse president extolling the non-existent stimulative effects (for China?) of throwing dollars at millionaires? All in all, this was one of the worst Dem decisions, approving Alito and Roberts.

[AndyTiedye]

83. I Seem to Recall Something about a "Gang of 14"

To call it a "Democratic decision" is bogus.
The Democrats in the "Gang of 14" were all "blue dogs".

Whether they voted to let Bush**'s justices through because they are DINOs
or because we couldn't stop them anyway I don't really know.

We do know that the Repiggies would have packed the Supreme Court no matter what we did.
The nuclear option was ready and waiting, and they already had a friendly Court to back
them up (something the Democrats do NOT have).

Their "nuclear option" was only to apply to judicial appointments btw,
so it would not have magically allowed us to pass all that other stuff when we took over.

[awoke_in_2003]

88. they should have made them do it...

let's get it all out in the open. Make the pigs look like the fascists they really are. Oh, but we cannot- gotta keep the powder dry and all.

[No Elephants]

158. 2/3 vote needed to change Senate rules, except (arguably) on first day of new session.

[AndyTiedye]

175. "Arguably" Means Supreme Court, and You Know What That Means

"Arguably" is the key word here, even though it is in parentheses.
It means that it goes to the Supreme Court, which always rules for the Republicans.
They would have made it a non-precedent-setting ruling like Bush v. Gore,
so they could rule the opposite way if the Democrats tried it later.

(That is why the "nuclear option" was a real threat to us,
but is no threat to the Republicans).

[grahamhgreen]

54. +1, but not just them.

[lark]

58. Absolutely

They are the reason I refuse to donate to the DSCC, traitors to our nation.

[rhett o rick]

82. Butttt they promised that they wouldnt be activists. Who could have for seen this?

Who knew Georgie Bush would lie about Iraq? If you cant trust a Republican who can you trust?

:sarcasm:

[No Elephants]

151. Every Democratic Senator

[Salander]

171. not to mention the Dem majority that endorsed Clarence Thomas

[Bette Noir]

5. Small correction: the most recent two appointees

are Sotomayor and Kagan, who had nothing to do with Citizens United.

But I fully agree, about Roberts, Alito, and fascism. This is not the country it was 50 years ago.

[Gormy Cuss]

27. No, that's a very large correction.

Failure to name the two justices in question is sloppy journalism since the less careful reader would assume he meant Sotomayor and Kagan.

[felix_numinous]

7. K&R

[ShadowLiberal]

8. He forgot one thing, the corporate media is also to blame

It's hard to have a functioning democracy when you have a media that doesn't do it's job at reporting the truth, and instead listens to crazy liars and nutjobs, no matter how far fetched their views are. It's that way on a lot of stuff, like the stimulus, healthcare, instead of experts we heard the opinions of wacko rightwing nutjobs who knew nothing about history.

For the stimulus we heard from nutjobs who claim Roosevelt caused the great depression, or made it worse with all his government programs.

For healthcare doctors and real people screwed over the American healthcare system were ignored, instead we heard the lies from the healthcare companies about crap like 'death panels', with the media barely making a feeble effort to debunk the lies.

A dictatorship and a fascist government requires propaganda news, and our news media is doing just that for fascist right wing nutjobs.

[Enthusiast]

12. Plus one!

They are also reviving the "death panel" shit.

[femrap]

37. I've been thinking about

the framing of these 'Death Panels.' If the Repugnants are going to cut the deficits on the backs of the poor, elderly and ILL....then maybe these ill people will demand 'Assisted Suicide?'

I've been thinking personally about terminal illness and what our current system does to those w/ such illnesses....they take all their money, charge Medicare all they can, then call in Hospice (which I guess is 'free') and just let the person die....hopefully while getting enough morphine to die w/o pain.

My aunt is going through this. It has been so sad to watch. Now it seems that her immediate family are resenting taking care of her. I wanted to go over and visit her and bring some food for her husband, my uncle, who is suffering from Parkinson....I was told that I would be in the way. Mean little fuckers. I just wanted to drop off the food and say 'hi' to my aunt who absolutely HATES GREED.

Then I hear her immediate family (bible-thumping repugnants...and she was not) have packed up everything in her living room...it's just bare now. My aunt had such quirky stuff that provided amusement and beauty and color.

I've been through many deaths as I lived in San Fran when AIDS first developed. Evil people come out of the woodwork wanting material goods and money.

Sorry for the ramble....but if I get some terminal illness, I want a Medical Order beyond DNR....I want a KMN...Kill Me Now. Let me have the dignity of a pet that has a terminal disease. Fuck this 'health' system that takes your last fucking dime....I'd rather my last dime go to care for abandoned animals.

Rant over.

Anyway, maybe we can 'reframe' the 'death panel' shit to make the greedy repugnants look just as they are....greedy corporate c*cksuckers.

edit for spelling.

[Enthusiast]

140. I agree completely.

The for-profit health care system and leach-like insurance and pharmaceutical companies are dragging this nation DOWN. What a way to go. My mother recently passed so I got to see this close up.

[femrap]

177. Sorry for your lose....

it all seems so barbaric to me. I've never understood open caskets at funerals. And the high cost. I want no part of it.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

141. You could be on to something

I'll start pushing your reframing over here on the east coast. KMN
Alan Grayson certainly spoke the truth.
Have a Focused New Year! Peace IN Peace ON

[femrap]

176. Yes, I need to focus

in 2011. Peace to you as well.

[gtar100]

149. +1 You speak the truth. Truly horrific.

I'm watching it happen to my dad. The American healthcare system is designed to bleed people dry through prescriptions, "care" facilities, procedures and as many traps as they can come up with. And the last insult is at the mortuary where they charge unbelievable amounts of money for everything, pump our loved ones full of chemicals making them look terrible and then putting on a pagent that practically breaks the families. The American ritual for getting old and dying just sucks.

The real death panels already exist. They manage the claims process for the insurance companies.

[femrap]

178. I hope your dad doens't suffer...

my aunt had a bad day today.

Yes, we have death panels now....it's barbaric.

[freshwest]

187. Agree with you. Have seen the same. Expecting the same.

[molly77]

13. ShadowLiberal

Let's adjust our perspective over a tiny bit. If we already were overtly fascist since the 2000 SC decision to override the voters in Fl...wouldn't corporate media be better described as state media?

[Wednesdays]

29. Depends on which party is in power

If repugs are in power, it's state media. If dems are in power, it's ANTI-state media.

[ShadowLiberal]

62. Free market owned media can do the job for dictatorships, look at Russia

Yes you would usually have state owned media in a fascist government or dictatorship, but not always. Look at Russia as an example of this.

Russia used to have state controlled media, they don't anymore, yet the media still operates in much the same way as it did when it was state owned. The only difference is now the news media decides for itself in Russia what the government would want the people to hear and not hear, rather then a government person telling them what to say and not say.

The story in the news about that Russian oil billionaire who got charged with crimes (some of the charges don't even make much sense, like stealing from his own company) after breaking with Putin politically is just an example of how Russia still acts like a dictatorship.

[Jackpine Radical]

120. The media are owned by, and serve the propaganda needs,

of the corporations. They are "State media" only insofar as the State is a tool of the corporations.

[drmeow]

48. "instead listens to crazy liars and nutjobs"

More than that - gives an unfettered and uncritical voice to crazy liars and nutjobs.

[dana_b]

53. and because of that decision, the media isn't going to

get any better at doing their "jobs".

Hall is right and I'm glad that at least some of them see it and care - although we're losing him and some other good ones.

[arikara]

57. But the media is doing their job very well

they are owned by the same corporate interests.

[awoke_in_2003]

95. all depends on one's perspective...

doesn't it?

[Little Star]

100. Ain't that the truth! n/t

[highplainsdem]

9. K&R

[Enthusiast]

10. K&R

While the Tea Party is consumed with anger and concern about 'Obama the usurper', Muslin and America hating socialists, they are completely oblivious to the actual threat to the country. They don't even suspect they are being manipulated. Just wonderful. But, it's a grass roots movement, lol.

[femrap]

39. The stupid tea baggers have yet

to read the memo that they now live in Dumfukistan, the former US of A, and they are in fact Dumfukistanis....the real cause of this transformation.

They couldn't think their way out of a paper bag....too bad it isn't a plastic bag. :evilgrin:

[defendandprotect]

11. Better said now, than never ... but ..??? The country was bought long before this decision....

-- I'd also add that the right wing on the court constitutes a fascist majority at

the moment --

--- and scanned the article quickly, but don't see that he is offering any suggestions

on fighting back -- ??

[No Elephants]

159. +1

[davidwparker]

14. K&R

[peace frog]

16. Nice of you to warn us now, Mr. Hall

and perhaps your message will open a few pairs of eyes, however it's a case of too little, too late at this point.
K n R

[Fire1]

25. The handwriting has been on the wall for quite some time.

Unfortunately, 60% of the population has either been asleep or in denial.

[No Elephants]

160. More than 60%, IMO. Maybe 85%. And 1% are manipulating everything and everyone else.

[mascarax]

17. Agree w/John Hall...what can we do?

I looked for his race after the election and was disappointed to see he lost too. He's absolutely right, and we need to get campaign financing changed. I'd like to see him, Feingold, and others lead on this. I'm willing to do whatever it takes (donate, volunteer). It's not just Congress either -- it's the State elections who have been overtaken by Repubs, a lot of Governors, and we're in for a redistricting nightmare. We couldn't believe the Citizens United funded ads for state races. Unbelievable (think one House Rep had 200 TV ads - yes, she was narrowly defeated). Next time they'll do local.

[pacalo]

93. What can we do, is right.

[wilt the stilt]

18. Alito Roberts- weirdo's

These guys grew up during my time. If you look at their bios they were completely disconnected to what was happening culturally. To be that out of touch let's you know that they were really weird kids. The kids who were closet nutcases and couldn't relate to anyone but themselves. These two guys should never have become supreme court justices.

[Can of Whoop-ass]

24. Alito & Roberts- weirdo sociopaths.

Much less George Bush, Drunk Presidunce!

[AsahinaKimi]

19. Unfortunately

There are some Tea baggers and Republicans who probably feel comfortable with a dictator in office. One that is influenced by the Corporations. If that ever comes about, Fox News would be the only network left, as the powers that be, would shut everything else down.


I hope I don't live to see that day.

[DailyGrind51]

20. This country is a solely owned subsidiary of the Fortune 500!

[ewagner]

22. Citizens United was a "sleeper"

I think very few people understood the true impact the case could have before the SCOTUS reached out and grabbed it for their consideration..

Now we are living the nightmare. And yes, I do understand the true meaning of the word "fascism"...and it is an encroaching reality.

on edit: the evolution of this was clear:

Santa Clara County v Southern Pacific RR = corporations are persons

Buckley v Vejelo = money = free speech

Citizens United = corps can spend unlimited money/speech.

[Red1]

26. Of Course!

Want to fix the problem?

Everyone cash in their stocks..mutual funds..equities..whatever

The the corps can't argue their ends justify their means...

[Wednesdays]

31. Okay, everyone here who owns stock, mutual funds, or equities...raise your hands!

I sure as heck don't own any of those things. :shrug:

[femrap]

40. The bottom 40%

of our population has NOTHING. Nearly 1/2 of our population. In fact, many have a negative net worth. We're a 3rd World nation now.

[RKP5637]

143. +1000 +++ n/t

[lark]

61. A lot of us did that during the recent crash

Didn't matter to wall st. They care about the corporate accounts, the 401k's and 401Bs etc. That's their bread and butter.

[lunatica]

30. The word 'corrupt' applies to our government now

It has for a while, only now it's blatantly obvious.

[colsohlibgal]

36. K&R!

Bingo - the corporate state/oligarchy has their Goebbels network (Fox), they have fixed elections and will fix more and now the perjurer Roberts court has thrown even more big money into DC. Up is down, down is up and they have millions of zombie enabling citizens believing such nonsense.

The hour is late to stem this tide, to forestall game, set, match. Meanwhile the rich ger filthier rich daily as tons of people daily move from the middle class to the new poor. One party is a wholly owned subsidiary of the oligarchy, the other side has too many members also bought and paid for to change much.

All praise to Orwell, Huxley and good old Dwight Eisenhower, they all saw it coming from way back.

[sasquuatch55]

70. Let's not forget Milton Friedman

nt

[Enthusiast]

156. I can't disagree. nt

[closeupready]

38. K&R

Glad people are finally waking up to this.

[RoccoR5955]

41. John is a friend...

He wouldn't say this if he didn't know this.
He lost his seat in a swing district to a wealthy doctor who outspent him by a long shot.
As it is, his district, Dutchess and Putnam Counties are strongholds of the RepubliCON party. This is less so these days, as people have been moving north from Westchester and NYC. I work in Dutchess County, and I can tell you that, for a fact, even though FDR was from Hyde Park, in the middle of the county, he NEVER, in his four terms as president, won his own county! They have been RepubliCONs here all along. They are becoming weaker, however the Democratic Party has to get their act together, as we have in neighboring Ulster County, and get the CONs out!

[tomg]

90. Couldn't agree more. nt.

[AlphaCentauri]

42. +101

[purrFect]

43. Fascism won't sell here, maybe we need a new word like, kakistocracy?

but that is too unfamiliar. hmmm...

[Capitalocracy]

78. ahem...

^

[fascisthunter]

114. according to the rec count, there is nothing to "sell"

people know much more than the fascists want to admit, which is a very good thing for "We the People"

[purrFect]

116. i didn't mean the choir, i meant the 90 percenters

:hi:

[fascisthunter]

117. 90 percent of what, the GOP?

[purrFect]

118. the U.S. population

[fascisthunter]

119. lol... ok

[No Elephants]

161. Plutonomy.

[vanbean]

46. And Obama will let them cut social security! We're fucked.

[osteenq]

47. Somebody...

...needs to inform Mr. Hall that we're already there.

[craigmatic]

49. Again it's too late. We're already there. Just look back at the teabagger rallies and then look at

the rallies for mussolini and you'll see the simularity.

[briteleaf]

50. Corporatism + Fascism = Plutocracy. WE'RE ALREADY THERE!

Most Americans just don't know it yet. Our political system has been invaded by huge armies of lobbyists. There are hundreds of lobbyists for every senator and house representative. Lobbyists provide our representatives with campaign funds to be re-elected. AT&T has more than one lobbyist for each congressperson. Lobbyists were first set up to represent interest groups. Now, most of them represent the interests of corporations and even of other countries. Each of these lobbyists is capable of channeling millions of dollars into secret groups that run campaign ads and they don't have to disclose who they are to make these donations. The media, while happy to rake in the billions of dollars for secret campaign ads are being controlled themselves by corporate interests (the interests of the wealthy).
Corporations are not the culprits, it's the wealthy who own controlling interests who are pulling the strings. In America, we have been taken over by the Golden Rule. It's not the "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". It has become the "Who has the gold, rules". Many of the wealthy, finance republicans and democrats. Whoever wins the election will be beholding to them. How else can tax cuts for the wealthy be given during one of america's most difficult financial periods?
Good luck educating Americans to take back our country with election reform. The media will not help you. They're owned by the wealthy. It will only be when Americans become so outraged by the control of the wealthy that they will vote election reform and lobby reform or revolt and change our government by force of our numbers. Good luck with a coup. Guess who controls the military and the police?

[Amonester]

69. It will only be when enough Americans will be jobless for years...

and years, homeless, hungry for the next meal that never comes, sick to their stomach and being sent home from every ER with bills they'll never be able to pay back, so they'll get on an 'exclusion' list or something similar. That is, IF they'll survive and they're still able to vote somewhere (and IF the paperless voting machines are made ILLEGAL, but by WHO?).

The Plutocracy Just Wants Them To Die Quickly.

Already There.

[awoke_in_2003]

96. and when that happens....

remember the well-paid mercenaries of Xe (formerly Blackwater). Want to bet we bring THEM back home?

[existentialist]

52. only the Senate votes on confirmation of justices, but

with regard to the Senate I do think that if that didn't know what Alito and Roberts would do (in general terms) they weren't paying attention.


This is kind of beside the point with regard to the pickle that we are now in.

[democracy1st]

55. K & R

[DeSwiss]

56. And bought cheaply, with fiat money at that.

Not even real money. They're just pixels, really. Electrons lined up in just the right way, flowing through various computer servers in New York, London, and Switzerland, etc., which claim that they're worth something -- because someone says they are worth something -- and that certain people "own" these electrons because their grandfather did and because they deserve to have more of these "special electrons" than anyone else, because, because, well just because.

And we go along with it.

- Money made in ImaginationLand.......

K&R

Sumthin' fer nuthin'

"The main feature of capitalism is the seductive assertion that you can get something for nothing in this world. That you can manufacture wealth through money manipulation, and that it is OK to steal and hold captive the people's medium of exchange, then charge them out the ass for access. That you can do so with a clear conscience. Which you can, if you are the kind of sleazy prick who has inherited or stolen enough wealth to get into the game. Even so, to keep a rigged game going, you must keep the suckers believing they can, and eventually will, benefit from the game." ~ http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2010/07/waltzing.html">Joe Bageant, "Waltzing at the Doomsday Ball"

[liberation]

67. It is worse than that...

... those electrons are "worth" something because we allow our labor and our word to provide the valuation needed for those electrons to mean something. I.e. a dollar is worth something because the American people promise to work and provide enough assets to make up for the debt a dollar implies.

It is not just control via placebo, but the people being controlled are the ones making the placebo.


I am not a religious person in the least, but I always found it fascinating that the bankers were the only people who made Jesus, the prince of peace, lose his cool enough to go ape shit.

[awoke_in_2003]

97. +1. nt

[DeSwiss]

105. Me too!

[lonestarnot]

126. Pharasees Banksters then?

[MrMickeysMom]

135. Damn, that's the best Jesus poster I've seen yet...

I'll have to steal it with permission :P

[Manifestor_of_Light]

182. Love that Ass Kickin' Jesus!

Most pics of Jesus leave me cold. That's a good one!! :D

[valerief]

92. Getting to be a fascist state? I think we're there.

He rebuffed the idea that Democrats over-reached, noting that his Republican colleagues were frequent lunch guests of the White House, but he and his Democratic counterparts seldom were.

[abelenkpe]

99. Complaining about Citizens United?

Really? Now? You know there were almost two years when congress could have done something to counter that but no. One more reason I am disappointed in the so called progress of the past two years.

And don't tell me how fucking fantastic HCR and find financial reform were when there are more people without health care today and wall street is making out like pigs while the rest continue to suffer. They were both feeble attempts to solve Huge problems and so those problems still persist. Too bad Democrats lost the house becaues we need to strengthen those two things. Instead we'll fight to keep them. Joy.

[truedelphi]

101. I still cannot believe that the Powers that Be are so upset with Assange

Matt Taibbi has exposed those bastards inside the Beltway just as much as Assange has.

I love his tale of how Harry Reid avoided the Democrats in the Senate that wanted to strengthen the Financial Reform Act, while he actively sought out the Republicans who wanted the bill watered down.

[No Elephants]

164. Congress cannot, in effect, "overrule" a Constitutional decision of the SCOTUS.

We'd need a Constitutional amendment and that just ain't gonna happen.

[WillyT]

104. HUGE K & R !!!

:kick:

[Scruffy1]

107. I,ve known we live in a corrupt fascist state since 1968

It's the money ,the power, and the glory. Everything we learned in school was pretty much a lie. Money and power always trumps the people.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

109. BINGO

[Shining Jack]

110. K&R

And I think to myself, what a wonderful world... :(

[Rex]

111. Corporate money in politics? Is there any other kind of politics?

That is how all govt run entities are exploited and abused on a daily bases, shit I thought that was just business as usual. You mean The People might be more important then The Corporate Bodies?

[BrklynLiberal]

112. It is already here....Fascism Anyone??

are any of these not already happening??????
The Fascists have been waiting since the days of FDR to take over. They plan to do it with, or without an Adolph Hitler to lead them.


http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm

<snip>

Analysis of these seven regimes reveals fourteen common threads that link them in recognizable patterns of national behavior and abuse of power. These basic characteristics are more prevalent and intense in some regimes than in others, but they all share at least some level of similarity.

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people’s attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite “spontaneous” acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and “terrorists.” Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.

5. Rampant sexism. Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.

6. A controlled mass media. Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes’ excesses.

7. Obsession with national security. Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting “national security,” and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elite’s behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the “godless.” A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.

9. Power of corporations protected. Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of “have-not” citizens.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.

12. Obsession with crime and punishment. Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. “Normal” and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or “traitors” was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.

14. Fraudulent elections. Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.

Does any of this ring alarm bells? Of course not. After all, this is America, officially a democracy with the rule of law, a constitution, a free press, honest elections, and a well-informed public constantly being put on guard against evils. Historical comparisons like these are just exercises in verbal gymnastics. Maybe, maybe not.

{/div]

[Ruperto31]

193. No, it's not.

Your quote describes right-wing nationalism. And it puts the cart before the horse by saying that "the ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control."

The "ruling elite" IS the corporate structure, which makes government its servant.

Your quote also leaves out the mass-based middle class fascist movement, financed by the corporate class, which is essential to any form of fascism.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

113. John Hall is my Congressman. ...I spoke to one of his reps and asked him why Hall did nothing....

...to hold the Bush administration accountable. I was told that the Congressman's constituency wanted to "move ahead".

If our dems held EVERYONE accountable we wouldn't be where we are today.

[peacebird]

121. exactly! Frankly if Ford had not pardoned Nixon we might have been able to avoid this too.

Think about it - where did Cheney cut his teeth? Rove? and so many of gwb's people?

http://campaigningforhistory.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/05/01/in-nixons-tricks-roves-roots-and-a-blueprint-for-bush/

[A-4300SX]

122. Just picked up this thread...

Didn't know that Mr. John Hall lost...

Even though I live in Minnesota, I've always admired the life of John Hall - a man who went out there and did things, got a lot accomplished.
He seems to certainly have alerted us all to the evils corporate fascism.
My apologies if this has been posted earlier, but John Hall has influenced me greatly over thirty years ago while I was living in Los Angeles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7muHNKd4YLM=related


I listened to it again, and it sounds as great as ever; yeah, that's John on lead guitar!

[lonestarnot]

125. Those two fuckers should be impeached for lying under oath when being sworn into the Court.

[Stinky The Clown]

128. I hope those who wish to try to argue the opposite would wake the hell up.

This country is so close to out and out fascism it isn't even debatable anymore.

[skepticscott]

129. No, that's not what Citizens United allowed

but why start telling the truth about that decision now?

[fascisthunter]

130. then what did it allow exactly... what has been the result?

forget about labels.... do corporations have more influence on our government than the majority voters combined. Answer honestly.

[skepticscott]

131. Here is the quote

"Speaking about the Citizen's United decision, which allowed unregulated flow of cash into campaign coffers..."

Citizens United did NOT allow unlimited corporate contributions to political candidates. Period. The same restrictions on that are still in place, or didn't you know that? The decision struck down restrictions on political advertisements by third parties.

And even if corporations have more influence on our government than the majority voters combined (and no corporation that I know of has ever cast a ballot), are you seriously claiming that it wasn't that way BEFORE Citizens United? Please.

[fascisthunter]

132. What Did It Allow Then?

[skepticscott]

133. I told you what it allowed

Is reading comprehension a problem for you?

[fascisthunter]

134. ok... I'll Just Say It Then... Corporations have more influence on our Democracy

that's what it does and it's a problem.

[skepticscott]

144. None of which anything to do

with the SPECIFIC point I made above, which was that the characterization of what the decision did was wrong. I did not deny a general statement that corporations have a lot of influence on our government, or that the CU decision gave them more influence, so please stop trying to imply that I did.

[Life Long Southerner]

136. It Can't Happen Here

"It Can't Happen Here" by Sinclair Lewis, 1935
What has been going on in this country is too close to what is outlined in the book.

[MellowDem]

137. It's not fascism, it's a corporatocracy...

the teabaggers and the American right are not fascists.

[Ruperto31]

189. Right. n/t

[GoddessOfGuinness]

138. "So? What's so bad about Fascism?"

How much longer will it be before corporatist pigs spout this as their new motto? They'll say Fascism wasn't the problem in Nazi Germany; the problem was that Hitler was mentally ill. They'll say Fascism was a good thing, which helped revitalize Germany's flailing economy. They have no qualms about rewriting America's history...Why not rewrite the rest of the world's while they're at it?

[Ruperto31]

190. They will avoid the word "fascism."

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis.

[burning rain]

139. Good for Congressman Hall.

The Disclose Act would be a small step in the right direction, but still thin gruel, as it would merely mean that we'd be allowed to know who was buying our elections. What we really need is complete public financing, no private ads or contributions, certainly no spending your own money to get elected, even if it means amending the Constitution. Admittedly, that would take a hell of a lot of work, but the work itself could be used to create an electoral machine for Democrats, liberals, and good-government types generally.

[Ruperto31]

192. Yes, public finanicing would help. But....

Politicians would still take bribes. They do this now. For example, they go on the corporate lecture circuit after they leave office and get paid $100k per speech. This is really payback for the favors they have done the corporations while in office. I believe Bill Clinton did this.

There is also the good old "cash in an envelope" method.

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mdmc]

145. Hall + supporting the drug war = newburgh's downward spiral

Hall lost due to negative TV ads, failing to stand for a public option, and supporting wall street bailouts.

[mdmc]

146. last time around

I donated several hours and hundreds of dollars to Hall.
This election - 0 hours, 0 dollars..
All my time is spent working, trying to pay for medical care.

Negative TV ads are just one reason Hall lost..

[spicegal]

152. Corporate state, fascist state, communist state.....

Really, what's the difference? In every case, the bottom line is that there's a concentration of wealth and power in the hands of a few. There's been a hollowing out of the middle class in this country over the past 30 years, while Wall Street and corporate America become increasingly powerful.

[No Elephants]

166. In a truly communist socioeconomic unit, wealth is not concentrated in the hands of a few.

(USSR was not a truly communist state.)

[Ruperto31]

191. Exactly. n/t

[fascisthunter]

183. .

[No Elephants]

167. I love how some folks tell the truth only AFTER they become lame ducks or decide not to run again.

[wordpix]

173. no, Hall has always been a truth teller----don't go negative on him

This guy is one of the good ones.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

180. He had a pretty good band in the 70s

Orleans - Dance With Me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-IXJLgRnvs


Still the One
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbH_sDyWZqo&feature=related

[defendandprotect]

168. k/r

[disillusioned73]

197. k&r

:dem: