More US troops may be needed in Iraq - key senator

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N04331833.htm

WASHINGTON, April 4 (Reuters) - The United States may need to bolster its troop presence in Iraq and extend the deadline for transfer to Iraqi rule, amid an insurgency that could lead to civil war, a leading Republican lawmaker said on Sunday.

"It may be that we do need more troops ... because I think we have to have security (in Iraq)," U.S. Sen. Richard Lugar, an Indiana Republican and head of the Senate foreign relations committee, said on ABC television's "This Week."

Last week, four U.S. contractors were murdered and mutilated in Falluja, with cheering Iraqis parading the charred bodies through the streets and stringing up two of them for public view.

On Sunday, Spanish-led troops and Iraqi police fought a 3-hour gun battle with Shi'ite militiamen near Najaf that left almost two dozen Iraqis and four Salvadoran soldiers dead.

more

[Mattforclark]

1. Go figger

Well, Lugar is one of the more sane Republicans in the US Govt.

[saigon68]

43. More Mercenaries not troops

They are more mature, less apt to flinch when shooting civilians.

They also don't ask questions later.

And best of all, THEY ARE ONLY RESPONSIBLE TO THOSE WHO HIRED THEM



HERE THEY ARE !!!!!!

[IndianaGreen]

46. And... mercenaries are not protected by international law

so they can be shot, bludgeoned, castrated, drawn and quartered, and tortured for as long as one wishes. They can also be executed without a trial!

This does not mean that I advocate any of those things. I am merely saying that that's the way the people in countries in which mercenaries operate (mostly in Africa) do react when they capture them.

[saigon68]

48. That's why they are paid BIG BUCKS

That's why they are loathed and despised by professional soldiers everywhere. Mercenaries have no loyalty or honor---

Have Gun will Travel.

They have no ROE and no UCMJ, they are outcasts--

I am having trouble with the metality here that wants them revered and decorated with medals for "heroism" or some similar nonsense

[IndianaGreen]

49. We didn't have mercenaries when I served on active duty

I can't imagine what our GIs are thinking about these guys getting paid 5-6 figure salaries, and getting good food and air conditioned quarters, while they barely get by with their MREs.

[saigon68]

55. What troubles me is that the Corporations are going to use these

people for security etc.

Get used to seeing corporate execs like Lay, Skilling et al surrounded by guys like this.

They will use these people as strike breakers and the Feds will allow it.

No in all the years I spent in service sworn to uphold the Constitution and obey my superiors I never saw anything remotely like this

Disgusting.

[saigon68]

67. The Resistence comes out

An Iraqi man armed with a Kalashnikov rifle takes cover after clashes broke out with U.S. forces in the impoverished Baghdad suburb of Al Sadr City April 4, 2004. REUTERS/Ceerwan Aziz



Al-Sadr's self-styled militiamen from the al-Mahdi Army, speed away from clashes with coalition forces to take a wounded man to the hospital in Kufa, Iraq (news - web sites), Sunday April 4, 2004. (AP Photo/Khalid Mohammed)
Add News Photos to My Yahoo!

[Frederic Bastiat]

2. These folks have completely lost it n/t

[htuttle]

3. Why not? Escalation worked in Vietnam, didn't it?

No. No it didn't.

[Mattforclark]

5. The situation is not identical to Vietnam

It could, however, become more like Vietnam if Bush continues to handle it so poorly.

[NNN0LHI]

Its worse than Vietnam

We never had to worry about the Vietnam war coming to our shores? The Iraq war will.

Don

[Mattforclark]

8. Nah

"Its worse than Vietnam"

Vietnam was a full scale civil war with us in the middle. Iraq isn't. Yet. If Sadr's Jihad thing gets rolling, things could get ugly

"We never had to worry about the Vietnam war coming to our shores? The Iraq war will."

You mean the Al Qaeda war?

[leesa]

64. No the people responding to our illegal invasion. AlQaeda is a

propaganda tool to suck people like yourself in.

[tedzbear]

30. Yes it is.

Once the Shiite majority stops being politely submissive this thing will escalate big time. The Shiite clergy has allowed the USA one year of occupation without protest, but now they are starting to get impatient. Starting this month, you will begin to see greater Shiite insurgency that will dwarf what the Sunnis have been giving us. Yes, the Shiites are grateful to be rid of Saddam, but they also expect the USA to hand over the keys to the kingdon ASAP.

This thing is not a powder keg. It is a nuclear bomb counting down to ignition.

:nuke:

[Mattforclark]

32. Yes, but that hasn't happened yet

If a major Shi'a 'insurgency' starts, THEN it will be much more comparable to Vietnam.

[tedzbear]

60. Looks like it started today.

10 American soldiers and 1 El Salvadorian were killed in action during coordinated Shiite uprisings in multiple cities. Go read the headlines.
:nuke:

[paulk]

81. Sadr doesn't represent the majority of Shiites

His aim here may be to start civil war - but there's no guarantee the rest of the Shiites will follow. In fact, this may be just as much of a challenge on Sadr's part to other Shia factions (like Sistani) than it is to the coalition.

If Sistani (and the moderates) decide to join the insurgency, then it will get really bad - but most Iraqi's would rather avoid all out civil war.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Yuo mean like the GREAT ARAB REVOLT of 1920?

You surely jest... right? Why would they do that?

We came and liberated them, right? <sarcasm>

What is amazing is that those of us who bethered reading the history have been predicting every one of these moves well before they happen... PNAC ran a video game and their computer simms showed smilign Iraqis throwing flowers and candy... because those Idiots forgot to worst case this.

[leesa]

63. Why not? Already more dead than in Vietnam. Why do you say it is not

different? Phony trigger event...Gulf of Tonkin vs 9-11; many deaths with no way out, illegal invasion of a country that did nothing to us...what's the diff?

[rfkrocks]

4. one friggin year too late dude

we had a short period of time to stop the complete disaster but that time is gone and Iraq is a powder keg ready to blow-get the heck out now!

[Mattforclark]

6. Yeah

We should have invaded with more troops (but then, we shouldn't have invaded in the first place).

[rfkrocks]

11. yeah I am with you

the invasion was an almost complete disaster but we had a short term opportunity to avoid making Iraq worse off but we blew it-you get to a point where there are no foreign policy moves left-it is amazing how they screwed this up-my point is that at every corner this admin. blew it-you can hear Iraq now ..tick..tick

[leesa]

65. Oh, that's just brilliant...DUDE! WE illegally invade a country that is

in compliance with UN resolutions. We illegally bomb them and we should add more troops to prevent a powderkeg??? What kind of foolish Neanderthal thinking is this??

We need to get the hell out DUDE. We have no credibility anywhere in the world, much less in Iraq. Satisfy your bloodlust elsewhere.

[rfkrocks]

80. I am not sure if I should alert you but you have no clue to what I said

and you obviuosly haven't read any of my posts and I guess the dude should have (sarcasm) around it

[happyending]

7. battle weary soldiers... back to Iraq

"It used to be accepted practice in the US military not
to return a soldier to active duty unless he was fully fit -
not just out of consideration for his own needs, but also to
protect other members of his unit. In Iraq, however, growing
anecdotal evidence suggests that a new policy is emerging - to
patch up the wounded as quickly as possible and ship them
straight back, threatening them with disciplinary action or
even court martial if they show the slightest
reluctance."

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=507855

[Joanne98]

9. Evicting the Mercenaries would help

The troops are having to protect their Satanic asses on top of everything else. OUR military should not have anything to do with protecting mafia hit men. Cut off their money, tell them to go to Hell.

[JohnnyFianna1]

12. No, it wouldn't , mercenaries are proving to be very effective at

handling certain situations which the U.S. would like to disavow all responsibility for.

[IndianaGreen]

33. Privatizing our death squads will not win us any friends

I am utterly disgusted by the cowardice of our political leaders, none of which (except for Dennis Kucinich) has the guts to say that we need to bring the troops home NOW!

All you will accomplish by staying in Iraq is to add more names to a future Iraq War Memorial.

[saigon68]

44. The mercenaries are also effective at Dying

[peterh]

15. But then, that would cut off a supply of kickbacks…

Err..Campaign donations….where the common GI isn’t noted or has the extra cash to contribute, this private army does along with their employers….quid pro quos abound with these contracts…

But, you’re right, these critters are operating outside of anyone’s jurisdiction

[JohnnyFianna1]

10. WWGWD? What would general Westmoreland do?

[wtmusic]

13. Time to pour some gasoline on that fire

:crazy:

[salinen]

14. Maybe all the factions in Iraq

finally have something to unite them.

[Mari333]

16. someone tell Lugar to piss off for me

that idiot..the only thing left is the goddamned boy scouts.
fucking moron, they are sending kids back over there who have been burned and have PTSD
Lugar lives in a goddamned dream world.
send his kid!
http://www.bringthemhomenow.com

[m-jean03]

38. "the only thing left is the goddamned boy scouts." "

Don't give them any IDEAS, Mari.../sarcasm

Eagle scouts will be draft age soon enough, anyway!

[cliss]

17. It's becoming obvious that this war is spinning out of

control. I'm sure they're discussing this very fact right now in Washington. So what are the options? They feel they need more troops. Do we have enough to spare? Are they already on assignment somewhere else, so they need to leave that post and come watch as Iraq gets incinerated. This leaves the problem of leaving key areas unattended, which could increase international risks.

Also, how many troops do they need? 10,000? 50,000? 100,000? It's very costly to stage a war, and the costs may escalate beyond the $4.2 billion per month we're paying now.

Will they be using more mercenaries? The cost of hiring these guys is astronomical. These guys make up to $30,000 per month. Not cheap.

Either way, this situation is spinning out of control. Bad timing, George.

[MetaTrope]

18. Nearly half of our "troops" already in Iraq are weekend warriors

Significant less pay and benefits than the actual military, losing their jobs here in the U.S., only the most superficial combat training. Not to mention a shaky legal ground to having been deployed overseas in the first place. Yes, Bush has got his dictatorship alright.

[Nashyra]

19. All I know is that these repukes have no honor

and if it looks like they can save their own skin by turning on the asshole they will. My guess is this thing gets more out of control, Powell talks more about the lousy intelligence and they all start to claim that some one in the administration lied. Begrudgingly the I word starts to leak out and the repukes tell * to get off the ticket, If he refuse and the poll numbers are falling some repuke will claim it breaks his heart and they have to investigat the * for the good of the American people. McCain becomes the party nominee with Delay as the Veep.

[rockymountaindem]

20. I agree with Lugar...

Don't flame, hear me out...

This is a crucial time in Iraq. Dissent is mounting. I don't care who you are or where you're from, it's not cool to have foreigners dominating your country. Regardless of our attempts to help the Iraqi population, our efforts are outweighed by the fact that we instilled so much fear and outrage during the war itself, and due to the clash-of-cultures issue.

If the Provisional Authority wants to keep Iraq from going up in flames, they are going to have to take decisive action and crush dissent immediately. However, this doesn't exactly make us look like "liberators". The effects of every action will then spiral out of control. Basically the only way we can rule Iraq now is through brute force and fear, thereby defeating the very legitimacy by which we claim to rule. The only way to rule with an iron fist is by increasing the numbers of troops in Iraq, just as general Eric Shinseki predicted before the war. Of course Shinseki was conveniently ignored because his claims made the war look like a seriously expensive undertaking.

The whole thing is really bad and this is yet more justification for why this war was a mistake in the first place. Who among us looked objectively at the situation in Iraq prior to the war and didn't see this coming? Hmmm... let's see... the desire for vengeance against perceived oppressors, cultural sectarianism and religious radicalism, combined with everyone's greed for oil... nope no foreseeable problems there!

I think any one of us could have done a better job than the fools currently running the show.

[Mattforclark]

22. If Sadr's 'Jihad' gets really rolling

'brute force and fear' is the only way to stop it. That sort of takes away from the whole 'liberating' aspect, but hmmm...

I agree about the criticality of the current situation. This is probably the most important moment since the immediate aftermath of the fall of Saddam.

We need some changes. Quickly. It would be really good if we had a coherent and sensible policy. Oh well.

[leesa]

71. Sick Puppies Unite!

Let's kill everybody we don't like or who is not like us...wait a minute, that wouldn't be bigotry, would it?

[Mari333]

26. bring the troops home now.

period.

[ninkasi]

34. I agree, Mari

We should bring our troops back home. We should stop killing people in a country we pretended to liberate. We have allowed the neocons to destroy our country's credibility and standing in the world community.

I know we have to pay to rebuild Iraq; we are the ones who destroyed it. After our troops are back, we need to try Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, and all the rest of the liars and send them to prison. Most important of all, I believe, we must never again allow our country to be under the control of criminals like them.

[NNN0LHI]

45. They should all have adjoining cells with Slobodan Milosevic at The Hague nt

[NNN0LHI]

27. Umm..just how many names do you want there to be on the Iraq War memorial?

Sorry but I heard the exact same reasons to stay in Vietnam in the 60's. Those who were suggesting escalation was the way to go back then were just as wrong as you are now. I did not buy the BS back then, and I am not about to fall for it this time either. No flames here. Just the truth. We fucked up, and the sooner you and others realize this the better we off we will all be. We need to leave Iraq right goddamn now.

Don

[rockymountaindem]

29. Believe me

I want this conflict to end as much as anyone else. However, I don't think withdrawl is going to happen. Bush* sure as hell won't back down, and certainly the majority of the Congress wants us to at least ensure that a theocracy doesn't develop in Iraq. I'm not trying to act like a war monger, and I sympathize with the suffering of people like Mari (who I admire very much for her continued efforts to oppose the war).

All I'm trying to say is that from a strategic and tactical point of view, more troops are probably necessary. If we really want an Iraq that won't harbor fundamentalists and will embrace democracy we have to crush dissent in it's embryonic stages (yeah, I know that sounds oxymoronic, but nobody said the war was a good idea...)

Lastly, I want to reiterate that I thought this war was needless from the get-go and I point to this escalating tension as more justification of my pre-war stance.

[NNN0LHI]

39. Whoa dude. This part of your post caught my eye

"embrace democracy we have to crush dissent in it's embryonic stages"

Do you think that statement is pretty Orwellian? Don't you understand that you don't have a democracy when you crush dissent? The form of democracy that you are suggesting is not a democracy at all. Its not even close.

Don

[rockymountaindem]

59. That's exactly what I was trying to say

That's why I made that parenthetical remark about how it's an oxymoron since we have to crush some people in order to ensure democracy. I'm not an idiot. I know we aren't being the most democratic people over there. The whole situation is a catch-22.

[leesa]

69. I don't believe this thug understands anything but brute force, Dude!

[rockymountaindem]

75. Are you talking about me?

Because if you are that's not the case. There are several things we can try to do in Iraq. First, we can try to make ammends with the guerillas. However, since most of them are either die-hard fundamentalists or relatives of people we've killed who are out for vengance, I doubt that reconciliation is going to happen.

We can undermine support for the guerillas by really striving to better the lives of common Iraqis. That would take a very long time and require a way larger investment than just fighting the insurgents.

We could aquiesce to the demands of many for immediate direct elections. If that were to happen there is a large chance that a Shia theocracy could be installed. That would defeat the purpose of our supposed efforts to bring them democracy, and make Iraq a more dangerous country than it was under Saddam. Or, the country could devolve into Shia/Sunni/Kurd civil war. We don't want that to happen, so we can't allow elections right now.

Since we can't make anyone happy over there except by leaving (which isn't going to happen), if we want stability we are going to have to defeat the guerillas in battle. This involves all the ugliness of combat, but it is unavoidable.

The whole thing is any unfortunate catch-22. If we want to eventually have a democracy there we have to crush our opponents now, which is an undemocratic thing to do. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is. I don't mean to sound like a Nazi or a dictator, but unless we want a whirlwind over there we're going to have to "nip it in the bud" so to speak. That's the only option. That's why George Bush* is a fool for thinking that he could just impose a democracy on Iraq. That's why he's an idiot, because this is the only choice he's left us with.

[bemildred]

76. You just proved her point. nt

[bemildred]

47. You are confused.

We can leave or we can be kicked out. We are not in control of
the situation at this point, and it is delusional to keep thinking
that way.

Being kicked out - a bit later in time - will be much more expensive
in every way and will not improve the outcome at all, rather the
opposite. You may be right that politically it may not be in the
cards yet to withdraw, the governing class in Washington is amazingly
stupid and resistant to becoming aware of that fact, but the time is
coming soon.

[termo]

57. behind the 8 ball

it is a narrow vision to just look at the US casualties, it is too late to come back. in this bad and forseen situation, leaving Iraq to a civil war will create even more problems.

FUBAR, I don't see any happy end in this conflict, but "crushing" doesn't seem to be a good start.

[tedzbear]

62. Why don't you grab a gun and go over there, Mr. Tactician?

IMHO, armchair generals of your ilk should be immediately drafted and sent over to Iraq to back up our young men where it counts, on the streets.

Thank goodness I have better sense than to sit on my fat a-- in my easy chair and expound on the need for military escalation to protect our phony democracy building. I lived through Viet-nam and I can still remember the insanity and horror of it. Contrary to what the Fortune 500 propaganda machine tells me, the USA does NOT have to be the world's policeman.

:nuke:

[mbperrin]

36. Yes, exactly, right goddamn

NOW!

[leesa]

68. Well, certainly YOU couldn't have! It's not cool to have foreigners

dominating your country therefore YOUR solution is to bring in MORE foreigners to dominate your country and murder your citizenry. BRILLIANT!!!!

[Skittles]

21. Let's send some republicans over there

they support this shit, let them fight.

[alcuno]

23. Ya think? What was your first clue, senator?

It should have been done a year ago. I remember watching Nightline when the Americans went into Baghdad. One young Army man turned to the camera and said, "We need more men."

[Mattforclark]

24. Take your medicine alcuno

quieten up and listen to Daddy Rumsfeld. Everything is fine. Those generals have it all wrong, we don't actually need troops. What do generals know about wars and occupation, anyway? That's right, trust in the wisdom of Rummy.

[alcuno]

40. They ARE going to have to medicate me.

I will try and refrain from one of my rants about middle-aged men and the overwhelming need many of them have to be right in spite of clear and convincing evidence to the contrary.

[0007]

25. How many more? IMHO, 500,000 couldn't be enough...

The only safe way out now, is to admit our wrong and leave, and work on peace between Israel and Palestine. That would probably help more than bringing more troops in the country.

Brute force will not work!

[Karenina]

28. In the words of the sainted Nancy Reagan

JUST.SAY.NO.

[IndianaGreen]

31. Turn the clocks back to 1965 and Vietnam

The choice facing this country was to escalate our Vietnam commitment, or to disengage quickly. The Johnson Administration chose to escalate thinking that it could win a victory in Vietnam, and keep a pro-American government in Saigon.

You know the rest... 58,000 Americans killed, over a million dead Vietnamese, and countless wounded and maimed on both sides.

Republicans and Democrats are now lobbying for an escalation in Iraq. The same tired old plot, the same empty promises, but a different cast of characters.

Don't fall for the lies of "we broke it, we fixed it," or "peace with honor," or "we must honor the fallen." They are all excuses for keeping the troops in Iraq and bringing more misery to the Iraqis.

[Moondog]

35. For those of us who remember the run-up to the Viet Nam escalations . . .

this sounds all too familiar.

A couple of days ago on TV I heard some apologist for Bush talking about Iraqis and their points of view, and the bozo ACTUALLY used the expression "winning their hearts and minds." My blood ran cold.

[mbperrin]

37. Well, gee, Senator, grab your gun and get your ass

over there!

yea, right

[NNN0LHI]

41. Better yet send his kids or grandchildren over there to die like dogs n/t

[brokensymmetry]

50. Draft?

Yeah, I think so...

[m-jean03]

51. Yup, I'm putting my sweater on right now

Would someone please close that window? -- 'Cause I'm getting chills, guys.:-(

[Mari333]

56. www.bushdraft.com if Bush gets in =Draft

www.bushdraft.com

[Barkley]

52. More troops in IRAQ ! Any volunteers?

According to a poll done by Stars 'n Stripes 49% of the people in Iraq say they won't re-enlist even with a $10,000 bonus.

Last week's grusome pictures and today's body count are not helping
recruiting.

So where are these additional troops going to come from?

Lugar should be honest and come out with it about the draft.

We all know its coming.

[IndianaGreen]

53. Don't forget to tell the draft board that you are gay

That will keep you out of the war.

I never thought that being a second-class citizen would come in handy someday.

[tedzbear]

66. Wow. This could be an unexpected win for gay rights.

Bush will be forced to allow gays in the military! Otherwise he'll have nobody left in it.

:bounce:

[yardwork]

74. I'm not gay, but I'm willing to learn!

Would they send me someplace special?

apologies to the writers of Stripes.

[IndianaGreen]

79. I will tell you a true story about being gay during the Vietnam draft

Or actually, about pretending to be gay in order to get out of the Vietnam draft.

There were some stories being circulated that some straight young men that had received their draft notices had declared that they were gay when they reported for induction. The military took their word for it and promptly classified them as 4-F, meaning that they couldn't be drafted.

General Louis B. Hershey (remember than name?), who was the head of Selective Service, said that being gay was so baaaaad, that a straight person that would claim to be gay to get out of the draft was "unfit" for military life. Hershey said that it was perverted to claim to be gay, even if one wasn't one.

[saigon68]

77. You Mean this Picture?

I sent it to my entire E-Mail List

War is Hell (Some general said that)

[NeoConsSuck]

54. Are we going forwards or backwards here?

By now (early spring), the Iraqi's should have planted their next crop of flowers to shower the liberators with. Isn't that war criminal Rumsfield promised us?

[yardwork]

58. None of this is remotely surprising.

Everything that has happened in Iraq since our invasion was highly predictable. We haven't even had any bad surprises yet!

[teryang]

61. Lugar has his head up his ass

We can't win over there, not without incinerating whole neighborhoods, towns and villages, like Attila the Hun. Is that the level we want to sink to?

One of the great defense economists once said, "Sunk costs are no costs." 157 billion down the drain and over 4000 casualties. Cut the losses leave now.

The only alternative is an American reign of terror which will bring WMD to our shores.

[bemildred]

A good point, the WMD.

That probably would be one result, the WMD to our shores.
And the USA provides a much richer target field for WMD
than Iraq.

[teryang]

73. When you are losing, be afraid

...of losing even more, rather than hoping that the trend of your fortunes will be reversed.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

70. Um, didn't the powers that be in the military want more troops going

into this thing LAST March?

Remember how they asked for more, said it was crazy to go in with that few on the ground, hell in Desert Storm there were something like 400,000 troops mobilized and that was just to get him out of Kuwait?

Shoulda coulda woulda. Doesn't do a bit of good now.

It's a mess. How does a normal everyday schlub like me know it's gonna be a mess a year ago and I don't even have any security clearance and all these guys who supposedly know everything about it are acting all shocked and surprised and trying to say "oh but but but we opened a school today!!! It's got no books or desks or running water, but we opened a school! And poured concrete slabs for tennis courts in neighborhoods where they don't have safe drinking water!"

Gag.

[leesa]

72. I guess this is what Americans want. If not we would withdraw our

troops and apoligize to Iraq and the world for our rogue behavior. AND pay massive reparations for the damage we did invading a country that did nothing to us.

[w4rma]

78. Our reparations will be paid in trying to fix this mess. (nt)