Families of Men Slain by Mob Focus on Their Lives, Not How They Died

[m-jean03]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/03/national/03VICT.html

From the article:

Though Mr. Helvenston was involved in covert operations as a Seal, his brother said, he considered none of them risky enough to feel proud of. This was, after all, a man who broke both legs in a parachute jump yet tried to walk from the crash sight unassisted, Jason Helvenston said.

"He sometimes felt he never served his country because he didn't encounter enough danger," Jason Helvenston said "That's why he went to Iraq."

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[Catch22Dem]

3. Blanket statements like that...

Irritate the shit out of me. This guy had two kids and you say "rot in hell?" He was dismembered and dragged through the streets! So the guy was a SEAL? Big deal, I know a few of those guys from my military days, and most of them are just average guys. So he worked for Blackwater? Big deal, he may have been one of those guys who was always after some great thrill or adventure. But not all of these guys are, ya know, in the skin trade, and killin everyone they see and shit. It's moronic to assume so.

Don't make blanket statements that some guy you've never met was a mercenary, because you simply don't have the facts necessary to make such a claim. Furthermore, I was in the military, what does that make me? I'm a DU regular, I've never voted for anything but Dems, I have a 9 yr. old daughter, I'm college educated, and very well read. So, what am I?

[m-jean03]

6. I'm glad that post was deleted.

While I do agree that these guys knew what they were getting into, and I find it difficult to muster much sympathy for them given their profession, and given how many innocent people I really do grieve for, her statement was downright cruel and repulsive.

[Catch22Dem]

7. It just gets under my skin

We make fun of people who make blanket statements about democrats and liberals in general, and here we have somebody making blanket statements about someone's father who was just killed this week. Just asenine.

We just don't know anything about this guy. For all we know, he never killed a single "enemy" in his entire career. Hell, he could have been a medic (which he wasn't but he could have been.) I just hate generalizations.

[Malva Zebrina]

2. Maybe we should stop teaching our children that war is not a video game

Maybe we should stop glorifying a military "career" because it should be obvious to any thinking parent that the US cannot be involved in any militayr endeavor that will not be an endeavor toward conquest and empire.

Parents should NOT encourage their children to be enamored of the military life--it will come to no good eventually.

Those who are now in harm's way--did they think they would be dying for empire? For the greed of a man and his buddies and his daddy's rich buddies to take over the world with their corporations?

Did they buy it that they were "defending the freedoms" of the citizens of the US" Do not teach your children that. It is wrong to let them believe that. It is NOT what is the truth

Anything the military undertakes is NOT to defend out freedoms here, for NO ONE can invade this country, but is to conquore other small and defenseless countries that have something we want. And our children are being used to die for that empire building that only benefits the elite--like Bush and his daddy and his mommy and his brothers and his fat assed Laura and his two spoiled brats.

Do not let your children sign up for this . Teach them what is peace.

[m-jean03]

4. Well said, Marianne

What astounded me in that article was the fact that these guys appear to have had near- pathological addictions to danger.

A friend of mine also likes to taunt death, I guess, in a sense -- But he is a mountain climber, he battles the natural elements. We find the Go-Army ads so disturbing -- we have decided someone should make a "Go-Alpine" ad to counter it, to redirect kids to a healthy but still adventuresome & exciting hobby.

[progressivebydesign]

10. These men were not military men when they were killed..

..they were being paid handsomely for their paramilitary services. I think what happened to them was appalling. I also think that the hired guns like these are very dangerous in places like Iraq. They are not policed, and often are no more than gunslingers in an already explosive environment. I'm certain that publications like Soldier of Fortune are full of ads recruiting these guys. The war was about money.. on all levels. Sad that so many people had to die because of it.

I often think, that while the way these poor men were killed and humiliated is shocking, I have to remember that thousands of Iraqi civilians were killed and mutilated by our bombs... we just didn't get it on videotape, so the shock value isn't there for most people. Are their deaths less shocking and outrageous because it was so impersonal? Dead is dead, either way you look at it. I hate seeing people dealing in acceptable levels of dead.

[saigon68]

13. Here they are

Foreign Civilians in Iraq Are Armoring Up and Keeping Under Guard

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/03/international/middleeast/03CIVI.html?8bl


BAGHDAD, Iraq, April 2 — Albert E. Haines has no ordinary commute to Baghdad's city hall. When he dresses to go to train Iraqis in democracy, he adds a camouflage-colored bulletproof vest.

And when Mr. Haines walks from a barricaded hotel to his car, a muscular Brazilian bodyguard walks with him, a 9-millimeter handgun on his belt, watchful eyes behind dark glasses scanning the garden, the parking lot and the street. The killing this week of four American civilians in Falluja was the latest in a series of attacks on foreigners in Iraq that have changed the way they live here.

"When I got here, it was focused on the military," Mr. Haines, who works for a North Carolina company, RTI International, said of the violence.

[leesa]

5. Sound like winners.

[diamond14]

8. "a man who broke both legs in a parachute jump".....another

FUBAR.....that's real hard to do...having parachuted myself, I can tell you that it's not too many people that can manage to BREAK BOTH THEIR LEGS on landing improperly...that is so easily preventable...such a FUBAR should have eliminated this guy from any 'common sense' job, like security....

"blackwater" FAILED spectacularly in their mission (whatever that mission was - where's the food truck?).....you'd have to be real stupid to hire "blackwater" again, after such a FUBAR creating an embarrassment for the USA and an international crisis....


decadence, pride, greed, and KILLING-lust would better describe the reasons these guys sold themselves to the highest bidder....there are lots of other ways to engage in DANGER than going to foreign countries to KILL FOR MONEY...

[DemoTex]

9. Focus on Their Lives, Not How They Died: It's the only way to sanity.

Philosophically, in my old age, I disagree with their mercenary choices. However, their decisions might have been driven by more than a "fun with a gun" mentality. In fact, in 1972 (after getting off active duty) I was so dog-ass broke in such a shit-sucking economy, and Jody had screwed my girlfriend while I was in the 'Nam, that I put an application in to fly for Air America (not RADIO, young 'uns!). AA was the CIA Airlines in Laos. At the same time I applied to the Alabama Air National Guard in Montgomery for a job flying their spanking-new RF-4Cs (but I've told that story before, here). Point is this: These guys might have been in the job because Bu$h has wrecked the job market in this country. I can understand that. Been there, done that (sad to say).

[saigon68]

12. Ya I can see the argument

I can see some Rambo guys wanting adventure and getting beaucoup $$$$.

I can see that their little "adventure" ended, without the bank account getting larger.

The following is not for you Mac, because you've been there and done that--- its for all the bleding hearts who want to blow the Shit out of Fallujah.

There were thousands of Iraqis killed by bombing, and no one here who feels sorry for the Bilgewater employees seems to care about the collateral damage of the kids blown to pieces.

In the long run the Fallujah 4 will be remembered as guys who couldn't guard a bread truck.

Although my suspicious mind tells me that they weren't really "guarding" a bread truck. And they realy weren't contractors, you know those guys who carry a lunch pail and fix the plumbing.

[ThatPoetGuy]

11. Does anyone know...

Does anyone know if Teague is the same Teague who ran the Aryan Nation?