Obama: 'Money without reform' won't fix U.S. education system

[ProSense]

Source: CNN

Washington (CNN) -- Recent world rankings showing U.S. students failing to make the grade in math and science are "a sign of long-term decline," that will require reform of the country's education system to fix, President Barack Obama told NBC's "Today" show on Monday.

And he said that the United States' eminence on the world stage may hang in the balance.

"Historically, when we first set up the public school systems across the country, we were leaps and bounds ahead of the vast majority of countries around the world," Obama said. "That just is not true anymore. They have caught up and in some cases, they're surpassing us, especially in math and science. It happened over decades. There are a lot of contributing factors. But part of the challenge, I think, for the entire country is to understand that how well we do economically, whether jobs are created here, high-end jobs to support families and support the future of the American people is going to depend on whether or not we can do something about these schools."

Obama said the United States now ranks 21st in science and 25th in math.



Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/09/27/obama.education/index.html?section=cnn_latest

[notesdev]

1. Oh boy

If it's anything like "health care reform" and "financial industry reform", BOHICA.

[zipplewrath]

2. What's the point?

If we accel in math and science, how will it benefit us if there aren't math and science jobs here for them to get? The keep outsourcing the math and science jobs over seas.

[activa8tr]

3. Would be a miracle also if we "excelled" in using the spell check thingy, too!

[boppers]

172. American education?

:shrug:

[speppin]

4. I think it is already approaching that.

[Roland99]

5. How about we toss every charter school out on its ass, repeal NCLB

and stop teaching to a damned test.

[YOY]

6. +1,000,000

And Oprah and the goddamn Bill and Mellissa Gates foundation can help the fuckers find new jobs if they're so concerned with the way things are.

Goddamn parasites.

[earthside]

7. Blind Obama.

We've been doing the kind of reform President Obama is advocating for for about twenty years now: 'No Child Left Behind' has been the law for almost ten years and 'standards-based reform' was being implemented at the state level at least since 1990.

The Bush-Spellings-Obama-Duncan policy is a failure by Obama's own words! Yet he wants to 'double-down' on this failure.

It's really about creating corporatized schools and a generation of workers reduced to indentured servitude from college student loan debt.

[EFerrari]

8. By his own admission, cost is up and results are down.

What a farce.

[saigon68]

163. Union Busting

[boppers]

173. So what if the American car companies crashed, and their cars were horrible?

At least they had strong Unions.

....Until people decided that Unions were part of the problem.

[harun]

9. Reform = Profit, Privatization and Institutionalizing the Corporations.

At least that is what we got with Health Insurance Reform, Mortgage Reform, Credit Card Reform, Financial Reform and Wall St. Reform.

[flyarm]

148. x 1 million! eom

[EFerrari]

154. You bet. Deform is more like it. n/t

[NJmaverick]

10. Obama: Money alone can't solve school predicament

Source: Associated Press

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama started the school week Monday with a call for a longer school year, and said the worst-performing teachers have "got to go" if they don't improve quickly.
Bemoaning America's decreasing global educational competitiveness, Obama sought in a nationally broadcast interview to reinvigorate his education agenda. At the same time, the president acknowledged that many poor schools don't have the money they need and he defended federal aid for them. But Obama also said that money alone won't fix the problems in public schools, saying higher standards must be set and achieved by students and teachers alike.
Asked in an interview if he supported a year-round school year, Obama said: "The idea of a longer school year, I think, makes sense." He did not specify how long that school year should be but said U.S. students attend classes, on average, about a month less than children in most other advanced countries.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_obama;_ylt=Ao2bEgFLMDmL0kfUk5mmIqOs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTM4OHNxb3RxBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwOTI3L3VzX29iYW1hBGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDMQRwb3MDMgRwdANob21lX2Nva2UEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yeQRzbGsDb2JhbWFtb25leWFs

[bluestateguy]

11. I could not agree more

I just wish the same logic was applied to other government agencies, like the Defense Department.

[SoxFan]

25. The DOD is a bad analogy

Every officer and NCO undergoes an annual evaluation and review process. The system has flaws, to be sure, but it is actually more thorough than the non-military public realizes.

[bluestateguy]

38. I was referring to budgets

I would always get a stone faced response from hawkish conservatives when I said that "you can't protect this country's security by just throwing money at the Pentagon". :)

[SoxFan]

132. Ah. Gotcha.

I thought you were referring to the evaluation/standards angle. My bad.

[midnight armadillo]

169. ha!

The amount of waste and fraud in the DoD is staggering...and that's by the government's own estimates. Perhaps not amongst the individual officers etc. as you state, but in the intersection between the DoD and the defense contractors. From a few years ago:
http://articles.sfgate.com/2003-05-18/news/17491492_1_pentagon-gao-financial-accounting
The Department of Defense, already infamous for spending $640 for a toilet seat, once again finds itself under intense scrutiny, only this time because it couldn't account for more than a trillion dollars in financial transactions, not to mention dozens of tanks, missiles and planes.

The typical Congressional response to this sort of thing is to make a bunch of noise, then increase the money allocated to the DoD.

[Fumesucker]

12. Clearly Obama has a great deal of experience with the public school system..

As another poster pointed out on another educational thread, a great many of the teachers who have given up fighting the system in order to educate their students instead put their energies into sucking up to the school administration.

[NJmaverick]

13. Teachers seem to forget that every single adult American has plenty of first

hand experience with the US educational system. So trying to convince the nation that only teachers are capable of knowing what's best for teachers is not going to go over well with the vast majority of the American public. Nor is the idea of protecting poor performing teachers (either by not allowing accountability or claiming that all teachers are good) at the expense of the quality of education our children receive is going to be accepted by most Americans.

[Fumesucker]

14. Yes, and Americans all have plenty of first hand experience with the health care system..

That's why we are all competent to know what's best for doctors.

[U4ikLefty]

16. Zing!!!

[NJmaverick]

20. Why?

[U4ikLefty]

147. because

[Hardrada]

161. He gotcha!

I think those new D avatars are great CORPORATIST LOGOS! I loathe seeing them.

[NJmaverick]

19. That would be incorrect, while the vast majority of Ameircans

have had at least 12 years in the educational system, very few have suffered a trauma and had cancer and had heart problems and had a stroke etc. Nor are many Americans awake in the OR. Still even though most Americans don't have the experience with Health Care as they do education, we don't see the healthcare players suggesting Americans are too stupid to know what's going on.

[Fumesucker]

28. I've suffered a trauma, several in fact..

I can't think of any adult I know who hasn't had some trauma that required medical care, quite a few of them were severe.. Everything from broken limbs to ectopic pregnancies to kidney stones to second degree burns.

[NJmaverick]

35. Trauma is not the same as an injury requiring an Emergency room visit

Trauma requires special trauma care and will be sent to a specialize trauma center (as rapidly as possible) if one is available. (although there are some conditions which will dictate nearest medical facility).

[Fumesucker]

41. If something would have killed or crippled you without medical care..

It's serious..

You can play semantic games all you wish, that doesn't change the underlying facts of the matter.

As I said, I can't think of any adult I know that would have been alive and not crippled today without medical care..

[NJmaverick]

43. It's not semantics it's using medical terms correctly

You can't have a proper discussion if you don't understand the language

[Fumesucker]

46. You were the one who first used the term "trauma"..

I'm not responsible for your use of terms in order to deliberately limit the scope of discussion.

Something does not have to be a "trauma" by the strict definition you used to be life changing or threatening.

[NJmaverick]

56. Yes I used the term "trauma" and used it correctly

It's not my fault you didn't understand the word. Although it does prove the point that your claims of people being as familiar with healthcare as education false.

[Fumesucker]

60. Right, and if I were to use the term "propaedeutic enchiridion"

I'm sure that most Americans would know exactly what I'm referring to..

Since they almost all spent twelve years in primary and secondary schools..

And "trauma" has a more general definition other than the strict medical one you used.

trau·ma (trôm, trou-)
n. pl. trau·mas or trau·ma·ta (-m-t)
1. A serious injury or shock to the body, as from violence or an accident.

[NJmaverick]

62. a handbook or manual conveying preliminary instruction is not really an important term

in the national debate on our educational system. However understanding what that Trauma in the healthcare profession means something different that what lay people use it for is (as was demonstrated by your understandable mistake).

[Fumesucker]

64. The average lay American knows as much about medicine as they do education..

Which was my point..

[NJmaverick]

65. It was a point your mistake readily disproved

[Fumesucker]

67. That is your opinion..

Being a student no more makes you an expert on pedagogy than being a patient teaches makes you an expert on medicine.

[NJmaverick]

69. Your claim that people are incapable of judging good doctors from bad doctors

is simply incorrect. We have already shown that your analogy is a weak one. Still even if we go with that analogy people are still capable of comprehending a bad uncaring or incompetent doctor from a good one.

[Fumesucker]

72. I would agree that many people can tell an uncaring doctor..

Incompetent versus competent though is much more difficult to judge, particularly for the layman.

[Gormy Cuss]

167. The vast majority of Americans have a lifetime of experience with the health care system

Trying to compare a person's twelve years as a child in one public system only with major illness events is ridiculous. Each visit to a doctor or nurse is experience with the health care system. I would also argue that the insurers make an art of treating Americans like they're too stupid to know what's going on.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

74. That's not a priority

Doctors should be rewarded for good work, shown the door for bad work.

But the priority should be "what's best for patients". And we all have plenty of first-hand experience as patients.

:hi:

[boppers]

174. I have plenty of experience with both.

Hence, I get to spend lots of time telling my doctors what to do, because all the paper degrees in the world can't buy intelligence.

Hopefully, you can figure out the analogy from here. If you can't, blame a teacher.

[The Philosopher]

22. True, but...

While it's true that education isn't a religion in which one group of people have all the answers, have the divine right to interpret the system and to regulate it, I would find it hard to argue against the idea that teachers aren't the ones who have the most experience and interaction with the education system. To totally push out teachers from discussions about reform, to ridicule them when they object, undermines the entire effort to improve schools.

[NJmaverick]

29. You are arguing a straw man. This is about Teachers trying to tell the public

that teachers and only teachers know what's best for teachers (and the children they educate). It's a message heard rime and time again.

[The Philosopher]

33. Um...

Nope?

[Fumesucker]

42. But the opposing message is that everyone other than teachers knows what's best for education..

Which is far more difficult to credit than the reverse..

I'll trust teachers long before I'll trust politicians.

[NJmaverick]

44. Results are extremely important and neither group has got a lot to brag about

[Fumesucker]

48. Here is why education in America is doomed to failure..

And nobody wants to talk about it.

http://www.csun.edu/science/health/docs/tv&health.html

Number of minutes per week that parents spend in meaningful conversation with their children: 3.5
Number of minutes per week that the average child watches television: 1,680
Hours per year the average American youth spends in school: 900 hours
Hours per year the average American youth watches television: 1500

[NJmaverick]

59. This post proves the axiom that it's easier to make excuses than solve problems

Making excuses is just a cheap way to avoid having to produce results.

[Fumesucker]

61. When your kids spend over half again as much time in front of the glass teat..

As they do in the classroom there's not much the teacher can do about that.

The problem is really parents, while my daughter was in school I did not allow cable TV in the house and, unlike all her friends, she didn't have a TV in her room.

It's a discussion that no one wants to have because the vast majority of us are guilty.

[unapatriciated]

162. Same here, when my children's grades started dropping

in their early teens, the first thing to go was MTV. Surprise Surprise their C's and D's soon became A's and B's.

[madinmaryland]

159. That a really odd argument, Mav...

Of course, teachers are going to know what is best for teachers, just as electricians will know what is best for electricians.

Being around educators for my entire life, I have a bit of knowledge about what their thoughts are..

You are correct that there are good and bad teachers, just as there are with any profession. And there are a small portion of bad teachers that are protected just as any other profession. I am just concerned that you think this is an overwhelming situation that is happening. It is not.

Can I ask where your children are going to school, what your opinion of their school is, and how much do you volunteer in your children's school?

[yurbud]

51. yep. Most administrators are people who didn't like teaching, so they promoted themselves out of

the classroom with a few night classes.

[NJmaverick]

66. That's another inaccurate statement

[yurbud]

127. have you worked in education or known many teachers or administrators?

[U4ikLefty]

146. No, but they went to school once & now they are experts.

[U4ikLefty]

15. More attacks on teachers.

Oh wait, I know...only the "bad" teachers.

Is this FR?

[EFerrari]

17. Come on, we need that money to throw at Wall Street!

We can't be throwing it at schools. Are you crazy? :)

[NJmaverick]

21. That is a Bullshit Meme. Trying to improve the failing education system

is in no way shape or form "attacks" on teachers. By your line of reasoning teachers are attacking children.

[JackDragna]

27. Except there's no desire to improve things..

..by the kind of people the president touts as reformers. Their answer is the same tired refrain we've seen on how to improve everything: privatize, privatize, privatize.

[NJmaverick]

40. How is that exactly? What do you offer up to support your claim

that they don't want to help our children and see the nation's education system improve?

[flyarm]

150. oh come now..you have read all the threads about the Broad folks of Pentagon and military

people being trained to run administratively the New Charter schools..

do you honestly want anyone here to believe you don't know why they are doing this??????????

I sure hope you and your kids or family to come are, in the most elite group, so you can shield your children from this travesty!

The bullshit gets thicker by the day, with some people around here...and the excuses more than pathetic! They are dispicable!

I feel anymore that i turned my computer on and landed smack in the middle of freeperville!

[JackDragna]

164. Well, let's see..

..first off, they want to privatize the school system, which, of course, allows them to cherry-pick who's actually enrolled. Secondly, data shows charter schools aren't any more effective than public schools.

[defendandprotect]

137. Exactly .... this is about PRIVATIZING public education ... much as health care

was about continuing PRIVATIZATION of health care --

Teachers and education are a side issue here --

PRIVATIZATION and knocking out the largest union -- teacher's union -- are the issues!!

[SoxFan]

34. Amen

This notion that any divergence from the NEA and AFT orthodoxy is "attacking teachers" is cheap political gamesmanship.

[NJmaverick]

37. yes

[Greyhound]

63. Hey now! If you take away their diversions and lies, what have they got left?

I notice that every one of these "Great Reformers:eyes:" went to the schools that are never mentioned when discussing how to improve the education of our nation's children.

There is no mystery the answer is and has been right in front of us since before this nation was founded and nearly all the schools they attended were founded in the 19th century.

But no, it's the underpaid, overworked, deprived teachers that are at fault...
Re:puke:

[NJmaverick]

68. incorrect

[flyarm]

149. you would think so for all the bullcrap being flung here at teachers!

how about we keep Pentagon players out of our educational administrative system Mr President?????????

It must be the new recruiting tool for the cannon fodder you will need for your perpetual wars for the very richest among us ..right Mr President??????????

[Al Claybon]

18. Continuing the agenda of NCLB is NOT the way to save public education - but maybe that is not the

goal of this administration either.

On this issue, the direction of the "reform" is wrong. When georgie and the rethugs did it it was wrong. When Ds do it, it is maybe even more wrong because we/they should know better.

[hayu_lol]

23. So long as Arnie Duncan is at the helm...

our educational system will fail.

During my son's adventure through public education(K-12), he only had two really poor teachers. Both were coaches teaching academics(without knowing any).

The rest of his teachers(including his AP group)were competent to outstanding. They were professionals.

[NJmaverick]

45. Our education system has already failed and it's a claim with out fact

that someone how someone wanting to change a failed system is destined to fail. In fact considering the sorry state of our education system, I would contend that Arnie has no where to go but up.

[yurbud]

116. if money isn't the solution, let's stop giving it to for profit testing companies, charter schools,

and real estate developers for overpriced facilities for charter schools.

[Recursion]

118. There's no such thing as a "for-profit charter school"

Well, maybe in some states, certainly not in any one I've lived in.

[flyarm]

153. oh yeah? how did he do in Chicago???????that pathetic pig is so tied to the corporate whores..

and Arnie has the $$$$$$$$$$$ big money boys up his ass so far and the MIC..our kids have no where to go ..but wars... as cannon fodder, and failure..while Arnie's rich boys get richer off our tax dollars that used to go to education and now will be in the Coffers of only the richest!

[SoxFan]

36. Ted Kennedy and George Miller hated children

They wanted high standards and accountability so that they could sell off public schools to Chinese widget manufacturers who would use kids as slave labor.

[defendandprotect]

135. Right -- testing is NOT teaching -- !!

[boppers]

175. "Cultural growth experiences" and "Personal Expression" is not learning.

Macaroni art is not teaching, it's baby-sitting.

The whole point of testing is to figure out what children actually know, and what thinking skills have been developed, in order to find out which teachers have filled the year with activities that have more entertainment impact than educational impact.

[Bigmack]

24. Just one fucking time....

can we try just THROWING money at education and see if it works?

I mean just THROWING money at it as if it were some vital, national-security issue instead of an annoying step-child at the table.

Pay kids to get good grades... there's an experiment I'd like to see. Kinda like paying the MIC to do R&D on all the shiny toys the military "needs".

Let's try paying teachers like the CEOs they are.... some outlandish figure commensurate with the fact that they hold our country's future in their hands.

Let's put the highest tech we can find into the schools, along with people to teach it, so that our kids can compete with kids in countries whose standard of living is lower than ours, but whose commitment to education is greater.

When I hear people complaining about how much education costs per pupil, I like to remind them that keeping a soldier/Marine in Afghanistan costs at least $1 million a year. Keeping a prisoner in Federal prison costs run around $30K per year.

[SoxFan]

31. What it got Manchester

An underground parking garage at a high school.

Three new administration buildings in less than a decade.

Two separate public access cable television studios.

Meanwhile, the kids still don't have adequate textbooks and there's no intensive tutoring program for at-risk students.

[Bigmack]

50. Not enough spending....

The military spends on shit like that all the time... bucks that never get to the line trooper. Golf courses and Lear jets for the generals, for example. So the military just asks for more, so that eventually there's so much that the troops get a little trickled down their way.

Same with your situation. The administrators will get new offices and the non-essentials will soak up some millions/billions, sure, but there are more millions/billions where that came from.

You aren't thinking big enough. When I say throw money at Education, I mean THROW like they were the military.

[NJmaverick]

32. Where is all that money you want to throw going to come from?

[Bigmack]

47. Hmmmm.....

How about the "Defense" budget?

or

How about a bailout that doesn't involve the banksters or brokesters.

or

Raise taxes.

Either Education is vital for our country's future or it is not. If it's not, just keep going the way we are. If it is vital, spend like it is.

[NJmaverick]

55. schools are mostly financed at the local level

[Bigmack]

125. That's why some schools suck! ...

East Bumfuck, Mississippi spends a lot less than Upper Snob, Connecticut. And it shows.

Maybe we need to change the whole funding base.

[tomg]

156. Couldn't agree more. nt

[defendandprotect]

143. Where does the money we "throw" at Congress come from?

The money for automatic pay increases every year -- and their benefits?

And for all the perks they enjoy?

A return to progressive taxation --

and appropriate taxation on elites and corporations --

[flyarm]

145. hmmm bullets , guns , helicopters for the military that can't fly ..

let see..wars based on lies, billions that dissapear in war zones...in fact millions that were played foot ball with in Iraq!!....building ..what is it now?? 16 bases in Iraq..one bigger than the Vatican..Burger King in Afgahnistan and Iraq being transported with our military transport planes..! So the Iraqi's and Afghani's can " HAVE IT YOUR WAY "tm

[Recursion]

120. DCPS spends 150% per pupil of what Arlington VA spends

DC is "throwing" a whole lot of money at education, and has been for a long time, backed by Federal coffers, which is why corrupt local politicians felt like the school system was a great place to put their cronies, whom Michelle Rhee tried to fire.

[The Philosopher]

26. Quickly?

The one thing I find suspicious about the education reform efforts is the idea of firing underperforming teachers. Not because it’s a bad idea. There are “bad” teachers, teachers who aren’t getting it done, and that needs to be addressed. But the answer is always the same: fire them. That, to me, is suspicious. Especially what happens after the firing. I keep reading about schools firing teachers for being “bad,” then turning around and hiring teachers with no experience, with little training. I’ve never read an article that talks about what happens before the firing. If that teacher gets any help to improve their teaching effectiveness or if it’s just a sink-or-swim sort of thing. One has to wonder if these firings, this call to "quickly" out bad teachers, is a political move or maybe even a financial one (or both).

[NJmaverick]

30. Reread what President Obama said

he said try to improve them, but if the teachers fail to improve THEN fire them.

[The Philosopher]

39. Well

I'm not sure how to respond to that. I never said he didn't say that. I didn't even imply it.

[yurbud]

52. the reformers seem to use firing ''bad'' teachers and ''all'' teachers interchangeably

[yurbud]

53. yes, the way to save money and get a better product is listen to Wall St. billionaires

and real estate moguls.

They have done such a good job with our industrial base, pensions, and mortgages, what could possibly go wrong with following their advice on education?

[NJmaverick]

58. Agreeing with your own statement is tacky

[NJmaverick]

57. That's an incorrect statement

[yurbud]

117. what do you call the firing of entire teaching staffs at schools?

[boppers]

176. A Union.

You asked.

[nyc 4 Biden]

49. unrec

blaming teachers is not the answer.

yes there are some bad teachers. thats a straw man to avoid the real problem with our education system ie lack of funding, standardization, teaching to the test, unqualified bureaucrats and politicians taking teaching out of the teachers hands.

fail.

[NJmaverick]

54. Holding teachers accountable is not "blaming teachers"

I unrec your claims

[defendandprotect]

136. How about ... Holding politicians accountable is not "blaming politicians" ... ???

[flyarm]

155. when do we hold Bush and Cheney and Rummy accountable for murdering and killing our soldiers in an

illegal war of aggression?

Or our congress people who allowed it?

nd when do we hold anyone today in our government for the same wars and the same cover ups??????????

Lets deal with the murderers forst..ya think??????
You know the ones who killled innocent children in Iraq and Afghanistan???????

Then deal with the MIlitary Industrial Complex getting into the business of our charter schools!

Can we deal with murderes first???????????

ahhhh shucks noooooooooo...not when Obama said he admired the murderers last week!

We have to go after teachers..it's ok to look back at teachers..just not murderers!

[zenj8]

70. Money may not solve the problem, but it can help it.

The problem will not be solved until a solution to the lack of parent involvement and support is found. Obama just wants to bust the teacher's unions, test kids to death thereby decreasing the time to teach critical thinking skills (because kids who can think critically might grow up to be critical of our politicians and politics), and provide a longer school day to help parents with childcare. The longer day won't help anyone.

[Recursion]

119. Obama's talking about DC. DCPS is swimming in money

DCPS spends 150% as much per student as Arlington, VA (richest county in the country).

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fumesucker]

73. +1.. Well said.. n/t

[NJmaverick]

77. See my reply below

[NJmaverick]

76. Your response shows you don't understand how to teach or get your message across

your opening line pretty much made your intended audience less than receptive. "your full of shit" comment shows you are more interested in stroking your own ego that actually engaging in thoughtful debate or even offering up a reasonable message. So you can learn from your mistake, just know I stopped reading (as will many others) after your first sentence.

[Bigmack]

123. Trying to get your attention....

that's really hard to do, too. Too busy telling us what you think you know.

You weren't my intended audience. I know you don't have "readiness of the receptor"... you're not ready to learn.

"You don't understand how to teach or get your message across" ...? HA! That's just what I mean about knowing nothing about teaching.. or learning, for that matter. Certainly not at the kid level. Got to get their attention! Got to keep their attention!

Good teachers do anything to keep them "on task". Anything!

Example: Little Billy is deep in the throes of puberty. He's mentally undressing Little Suzie. What can you do to get him on task? It better be damn good, and you better be able to coax his blood back out of his Johnson and back into his brain, if he's going to learn anything.

Edit: and you didn't answer even one of my points.

[The Philosopher]

124. Wow, you're right.

An eye-catching, exciting opening statement really put me off to reading the rest of the text. I applaud your strict adherence to logic and excellence in writing. Well done.

[tomhayes]

75. He's wrong (for the most part)

Money is ABSOLUTELY the answer.

Why do private schools have (largely) better outcomes? Money.
Why do rich schools (consistently) do better than poor schools? Money.

Now if your school was well funded and then grossly mismanaged that could affect the outcomes - but that's a problem we don't have right now.

After there's enough resources then teachers and educational professionals can focus on the best way to instruct kids.

School funding should be equal across all districts in all areas in all states - with small variances based on cost of maintaining the schools . Teacher salaries should be based on a single standard and then cost of living for certain areas.

And we should IMMEDIATELY switch to eBooks so texas doesn't control the content of books in other states.

[Recursion]

130. DCPS has much better funding than any public school in Virginia

Even the rich systems like Arlington and Price William.

Why aren't DC public schools kicking Arlington's ass?

[Recursion]

78. President Obama: Fire failing teachers

Source: Politico

President Barack Obama took aim at the nation’s failing schools Monday, saying bad teachers should be fired if they’re not cutting it and that students should stay in school longer each year.

Obama also leveled a critique of the Washington, D.C., public schools, saying his daughters wouldn’t get as good an education there as at their private school. "I'll be blunt with you,” Obama answered. “The answer is 'no' right now.”

"You can't defend a status quo in which a third of our kids are dropping out," the president said during a live interview on NBC's "Today Show." "You can't defend a status quo when you've got 2,000 schools across the country that are drop-out factories."

The comments seem likely to further exacerbate Obama’s already-strained relations with the nation’s teachers’ unions, which have objected to Obama’s “Race to the Top” reforms and said Obama and his education chief Arne Duncan are scapegoating teachers when the problems are more systemic.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0910/42758.html#ixzz10kTuMPqM

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0910/42758.html

---

Oh boy...

[Roland99]

79. Let's start with firing failing politicians in Congress and the White House, shall we?

Oh, and by the White House, I don't mean Obama, specifically. Rather, those ineffective weasels with whom he's managed to surround himself.

[golddigger]

80. Damn freakin straight.

:thumbsup:

[sabbat hunter]

81. just as in any other job

if someone is incompetent or cannot do the job they should be removed. Of course this needs to be documented with performance reviews, chances to improve, support given to help improve, etc.

[freebrew]

88. As in any other job???

Most places I've worked, failure is more than likely going to get you promoted.

Competency gets you fired, it makes others look bad.

[sabbat hunter]

158. I don't know what companies you have worked at

but the ones I have rewarded competency and got rid of failure.

[Ter]

110. +1 million

n/t

[defendandprotect]

139. Exactly -- and let's stop "throwing money" at our politicians in Congress ...

let's stop those automatic pay raises -- or hook them to a living wage --

and safety net benefits!!

[boppers]

177. We can vote out teachers?

There's an idea, teachers would have to campaign to prove they're actually doing their jobs.

Probably a bad idea in fundie school district areas though, so we need some national standards to prevent the freaks from taking over, some regional governing boards which *could* be elected to insulate the teachers...

...and we're back at square one.

[onehandle]

82. Yeah, that'll get you some support. nt

[City Lights]

83. Fire failing politicians!

:argh:

[Recursion]

85. That's what elections are

I suffered through quite a few horrible, horrible teachers with political connections. What's the solution there? (And, no, I don't think firing the bottom 10% or whatever based on student test scores is the solution.)

[City Lights]

94. Start with defining a "failing" teacher.

I believe a teacher can lead a child to school, but cannot make them learn. I wonder how many kids in public schools in DC would be thriving at Sidwell. I'm guessing some, but not all. The problem is so much deeper than good/bad teacher. It's rooted in society. Learning is uncool. It's better to be a class clown, make fun of the teacher, do as little as possible, or be a star athlete. Learning is nerdy. Just look at how society views intellectuals. Until society starts valuing intelligence, not much will change, IMHO.

[Recursion]

99. I tutored in DC public schools

Mostly kids just had no attention span or motivation. And were hungry most of the time. Basic low-level Maslow stuff that isn't being addressed that makes it hard for them to learn. There were some very good teachers and some really, really awful teachers, which is why I have stayed more or less in the pro-Rhee camp.

[flyarm]

111. please do not lump all school athletes in this..

My son was a School athlete..he graduated with a 4.0 out of high school...he won the national Marines academic award..of which one is given a year and the first to be won in our state. As well as several other academic awards. He went onto a wonderful University on an athletic scholarship..and was on the top deans list his entire 4 years of univ..he was pursued to be a Rhodes Scholar by the Univ. administrators, he declined..as he wanted to play pro sports..and at his University he was the first Scholarship athlete to graduate in 4 years ..in 14 years at the Univ., as it is difficult for athletes to graduate because of their schedules in 4 years.

My son is now in the 3rd hardest MBA program in the nation.

He went to all public schools.

No two kids are the same..it is a damn shame we think these pathetic tests will prove who will succeed and who will not.

To characterize any two children and put them in a box is absurd on every level.

History in this country should have taught us all this. Many of our richest people failed at schools.

No one should be put in a box and type casted.

The problems are not the teachers....nor the children.

The problems are the greedy assed sob's who want to steal the money out of our public schools, and our politicians who pander to these bastards for campaign funding, who gladly allow the wealthiest to pilfer from our children in every way! And parents who do not understand what the hell is going on!

It is imperative that we reach out and educate as many as possible, as fast as possible, how these bastards are raping our kids education...and setting them up with Pentagon administered and run Charter schools that do not have their childrens best interests in mind!

[City Lights]

131. You're right, of course. Sorry to have painted with my broad brush. nt

[flyarm]

138. AOK.. it can be easyto do, albiet not fair and we all fall into it at times.

I do it myself. And have to catch myself, many times, when I do it unintentionally..in fact I am gulity of it too many times, I am sorry to say.



:toast: :hi:

[flyarm]

102. we can all fire them in NOV! All of them! after all..they are our employees as well! eom

[no_hypocrisy]

84. When I taught preschool in Harlem, I could have been just as easily classified as a "failing"

teacher" due to:

Little or no support from the parents of the students

Little or no support or direction from the administration

No money for supplies

No books

No music (records, tapes, instruments)

All the children were on different levels so not all of them could read or recognize all letters in the alphabet by June.

I always was a hard critic on myself, but I didn't "fail" the kids.

[Recursion]

86. See, you leave us with an interesting dilemma

Either a different teacher could have helped them, or not. I think "bad" and "good" are the wrong way to talk about it.

If you've got a school system like DC with a 33% dropout rate, it seems there are two possibilities:

1) Other teachers could produce better outcomes
2) No teacher could produce better outcomes

If 1) is true, hire those teachers.
If 2) is true, it doesn't really matter who is a teacher, then, does it? Just hire whoever's cheapest.

[freebrew]

100. Or maybe the teachers aren't the problem?

So, how do you find out what the problem is for real?
Interview the administration? In the school system my better half works for, the administration IS the problem. And I'd say that is more than likely true for most districts.

Also, in this state, Missouri, the schools are funded through property taxes. Sometimes up, sometimes down, If you don't own proerty, either real or personal, you don't fund the system.

[Recursion]

105. Funding in DC is bizarre

There's a property assessment and a large Federal subsidy because DC isn't in a state. DC spends buckets more per student than any of the neighboring systems in MD and VA.

Interview the administration? In the school system my better half works for, the administration IS the problem. And I'd say that is more than likely true for most districts.

*shrug* good point; I'd love to see some data on that.

[DrDan]

87. fail on Wall Street - that's ok - here's some money to bail you out

fail in a bank - we'll take care of you
fail by firing an employee without checking facts? - no problem

but a teacher - outta here

what a load a crap

[Chulanowa]

89. Well, fuck him

My kingdom for a politician that understands education!

[flyarm]

90. well President Obama when do we hold those who took our kids to war based on lies accountable?

You know them..in fact you said you admire one such man approx one week ago..his name was GW BUSH.

How do you Mr President admire someone who killed 1 million people ..from a nation that was populated by over 50% children under the age of 15 when he started his war of lies, and yet you sit in my White House telling me teachers should be fired?

Where is the accountability for using our children, many 18 yrs of age, as cannon fodder for a war based on lies?

You sir have alot of nerve!

I do not recall any teacher sending kids off to die for a lie!

I do know that these charter schools that you are pushing down our throats by your administration and their elite billionaire friends are being administered by Pentagon people now..you know people who cheered our kids onto their young deaths?? The same people who cheered on the murder of children in Iraq, because obviously sir, of the 1 million people killed by your predecessor, some certainly were from the over 50% under the age of 15.

Where is the accountability for those in our congress and senate who sanctioned this war of lies?

If we are to hold anyone accountable to our children..lets start first with the murderers!

Not those who buy school supplies out of their own pockets and take money out of their pockets to make sure chidlren have food in their stomachs..lets start holding some parents accountable..altough unlike yuou many of those parents work over time hours and work their fingers to the bone to mearly survive, and their children's schooling can not supercede the survival.

[jaxx]

92. I don't see what that has to do with the subject.

:shrug:

[flyarm]

95. not surprised... you wouldn't! Not at all! eom

[jaxx]

113. Nope, I don't.

War and teachers...I don't see the equation.

[defendandprotect]

142. Thank you -- +1000% --- K&R your post---!!

:applause:



Obama has done nothing but turn away from holding anyone "accountable" re lie of these wars!!

Or even bothering to reverse any of the effects of the lies -- like Patriot Act/Homeland Security!

What we have is rampant corruption of government and Obama looking the other way --

in fact, what Obama/Duncan are doing to schools is simply a furtherance of that corruption

indestroying public education by privatizing it!!

[gaspee]

91. THe problem isn't teachers.

It's parents - either their special little snowflake can do no wrong, or they don't give a shit.

Parental involvement, aside from income, is the predictor of how a child will do in school.

And isn't it funny how all the "bad" teachers are concentrated in areas low on resources. Funny how that works, eh?

[Recursion]

93. So teachers can't make a difference? That's depressing.

Either teachers can make a difference for kids with bad families or not.

If that's possible, hire those teachers and get rid of the rest.

If no teacher can salvage that kid's education, then why do we care who is a teacher in the first place?

[atreides1]

107. What about parents

Or don't they have any responsibilities?

[Recursion]

108. So are kids with bad parents uneducable?

If so, stick them in a concrete box and hire a TFA kid at minimum wage to watch over them.

If not, hire whoever it is that can overcome their shitty family life.

[flyarm]

97. you have that 100% correct! eom

[guyton]

96. pay teachers more!

If the public school teachers were being paid as much as the ones in his daughter's private schools,
if the student-teacher ratio was the same, if the parent involvement was the same, I suspect the
public school systems would hold up rather well.

[Recursion]

101. Sidwell Friends pays teachers slightly less than DCPS

Or at least they did 6 years ago.

[HuckleB]

98. So kids drop out simply because of "bad teachers?"

:shrug:

[Recursion]

103. If teachers can't solve this problem...

...then why does it matter who is teaching?

[HuckleB]

109. So teachers are responsible for what happens when the kids are not at school?

:shrug:

Are teachers responsible for the ridiculous move to eliminating recess for the early grades? For pushing homework down to kindergarten? For any of the other baseless things we're doing that kill the one thing we have going for us in the country, ie creativity? I could go on and on, and try to offer some perspective on those questions, but I have to go.

[Recursion]

112. Who said "responsible". I'm asking if they can solve it or not.

Rarely are the people who solve problems the ones responsible for them.

Either a teacher can educate these kids, or not. If so, hire whoever it is and get rid of everybody else. If not, then who cares who is teaching?

I'm agreeing with you that the system is broken and it's not the teachers' faults. However, the fact remains that either teachers can fix it or they can't. If they can't, it doesn't really matter who's teaching. If they can, we need to hire those people.

[HuckleB]

115. I don't think teachers can solve a problem that goes beyond the schools.

This is not an issue that can be compartmentalized, if we truly want to "solve it."

[felix_numinous]

104. Well lets just fire the nurses and doctors too

because the healthcare system is not working well, too many deaths and incurable diseases.

Let's fire the lawyers because the justice system is not working.

Let's fire the food servers at places where food is not good.

Fire the soldier because the war is unjust.

Sounds like a plan. :sarcasm: for the boneheads

[Recursion]

106. If a hospital killed 33% of its patients

Don't you think people would be calling for heads to roll?

The alternative is saying these kids are not educable.

[felix_numinous]

121. I do not deny the problem, just the one sided solution.

You cannot get good healthcare if the privately owned hospital cuts hours and benefits, and understaffs the hospital in the first place. The problems we are facing require people to be experts at their own level to bring the quality of work up in place, not for some entity from without the system with no professional knowledge dictate what has to happen. This is why systems are failing now, because corporate CEO privatization models have been misapplied to service professions. They simply do not belong there.

[defendandprotect]

144. Hospitals are killing patients ... and we have doctors self-selecting as mercenaries.....

100,000 patients a year dying in our hospitals having nothing to do with reason

they entered the hospital --

And huge numbers injured!!

[HuckleB]

171. You win most clueless post of the year award.

WOW!

:wow:

[HuckleB]

114. I hate to agree with Obama on this one.

But very few countries with a similar per person standard of living spend more on education than the US, at least according to this:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_edu_spe-education-spending-of-gdp

[Recursion]

122. Exactly. And DC spends more per student than Arlington VA

Arlington county is the richest county in the country. And DC is spending more. There are systems where money is the problem, but they aren't the big urban systems.

[Bigmack]

126. Bigger problems in the urban areas....

Very few crack "hos" in Arlington... employment and household income and parent education level is just a touch higher in Arlington, too.

Apples and Oranges.

[Recursion]

141. Plenty of "crack hos" (did you have to go there?) in Arlington

And an immigrant and ELL rate comparable to DC's.

[JackDragna]

165. The stratification of spending..

..is enormous. Kids in wealthier areas get much more cash spent on their schools than poorer kids. Never had to have a bake sale to buy books for kids when I taught in the wealthier schools. :P

[HuckleB]

168. It's not that way in all states.

And you may be right, but that means we need to even the playing field, and figure out what we're spending money on...

[dflprincess]

128. Did he have any suggestions on how higher standards can be met

when the schools can't afford textbooks & equimpment and class sizes are growing?

No, money won't solve all the problems - like uninvolved parents - but it would help with a lot of them.

[Recursion]

140. Again, he's talking about DC public schools, which are very highly funded

They spend half again as much per student as neighboring Fairfax county.

[bherrera]

129. President Obama is a good man

I am supporting this statement. I do not support what he does in Afghanistan, iraq, or the way he is allowing Israel to abuse the Palestinians.

[Dappleganger]

133. Has the government even TRIED giving money alone yet?

I must've missed that memo.

[defendandprotect]

134. We have starved school budgets ...and Fed budget has contained CIA $$ ....

at times as much as 50% of the school budget!!

[alp227]

151. WaPo angle: "Obama: D.C. schools don't measure up to his daughters' private school"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/contnt/article/2010/09/27/AR2010092701766.html

President Obama said Monday that his daughters could not get the same level of education from D.C. public schools that they receive at the elite private school they attend.

Obama, following a path chosen by some of his predecessors in the White House, chose to enroll his daughters Malia and Sasha in the Sidwell Friends School soon after he won the 2008 presidential election.

In an appearance Monday morning on NBC's "Today" show, Obama was asked by a woman in a television audience whether a public school in his home city could measure up to the standards of his children's private school.

"I'll be blunt with you: The answer is no right now," the president replied. The D.C. public schools, he said "are struggling."

--snip--

Some of Obama's critics say it is hypocritical of him to spend that kind of money on private school while allowing a federal voucher program in the District to lapse. The D.C. voucher experiment provides funding for some low-income D.C. families to enroll their children in private school. The Democratic-led Congress and the Obama administration have rejected requests from voucher supporters to reauthorize the program.

--my take on this--

Well, didn't Pres. Carter's daughter get a lot of distractions when she went to a DC public school (at least according to some Saturday Night Live skits?) And the problem with the children of prominent officials attending the public schools is that they'd draw a whole lotta attention on campus, while at a private school there's more privacy (hence the term?) Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Bush's daughters attended a public high school when G-Dub, who later signed No Child Left Behind as president, was governor of Texas.

While Obama's right in his assessment of the DC schools vs. Sidwell, I think that the Obama admin's reform is just as misguided as that of his predecessor. And I honestly wouldn't want the Obama children hanging out with the "wrong crowd" in inner-city DC.

[Unvanguard]

152. Well, sure.

The question, however, is HOW to reform them.

Firing teachers while ignoring background conditions isn't going to cut it.

[kjackson227]

157. +1

[Frank Booth]

160. I still don't understand why it's not ok to admit there are bad teachers, and

if they've proven they're not good at teaching, then it's ok to fire them.

Some people don't seem to understand that in almost any profession, if you don't perform adequately you're going to get fired. Firing bad teachers obviously isn't the entire answer to improving America's education system, but giving it a try can't make things any worse.

[JackDragna]

166. Bad teachers DO get fired.

What people object to is the gutting of the public school system and replacing it with an unaccountable, profit-based private model.

[HuckleB]

170. Actually, many bad teachers don't get fired.

Knowing that, I still object to the gutting of the public school system, and replacing it with an unaccountable, profit-based private model.