Nader tells Democrat, `get loose'

[Judi Lynn]

March 30, 2004, 9:32PM

Nader tells Democrat, `get loose'
Associated Press
WASHINGTON -- Ralph Nader has some campaign advice for Democrat John Kerry: Loosen up.

The consumer advocate and independent presidential candidate said Tuesday that Kerry comes across as stiff and coached on the campaign trail.

"John Kerry has got to get loose," Nader said. "He cannot allow political consultants to put handcuffs on his mind and his imagination. He's got to stop talking Senate-ese and be the old John Kerry I knew 23 years ago."
(snip/...)

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2476433
(Free registration required)

[grytpype]

1. Nader, get lost!

Just fucking die already!

[NJCher]

3. not so fast

Mario Cuomo, one of the most eloquent Democrats around, was on the Sunday talk shows and said essentially the same thing.

What I wouldn't give for a candidate who can speak from the heart like Mario.


Cher

[nolabels]

10. Now there is a real set of book ends

Ralph Nader and Mario Cuomo

They would probably be in love with each other at first sight :pals:

btw I was just trying to get loose :evilgrin:

[Born Free]

15. They need to find the brown suit..

what about the alpha male...2000 all over again, when will democrats ever learn

[nolabels]

21. The myth that * is some type of brave man is comical

Really I don't like to get in the way others fantasies, but what one finds about bravery, is that it exists somewhere in a more earlier (or if will, the more primitive part) of the brain. Not that it is not necessary, its just that when people are interviewed after they have performed what others consider brave acts, there seems to be a disconnect with their thinking. They can show the reasoning, but mostly the cognitive is shut down and rote method is employed during the more horrific periods.

It would seem to me that most any body with half a brain could figure it out, especially if there was a few things cut out of the mix. These things that really are not there as issues but are real in the sense that many have been conditioned to think they really are. This is after all just a part of a Achilles heal in a Alpha male.

http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~eknuth/xpxx/malespir.html

"Male Spirituality": A Feminist Evaluation
by Elizabeth T. Knuth
May, 1993

(snip)
Background
As in the swelling literature on co-dependency (and, before that, transactional analysis), so too in the mythopoetic movement and in the rationales for male spirituality there is a considerable amount of jargon. There is talk of shadow kings, father-wounds, Zeus energy, Puer culture, and the like. Therefore some information on the underpinnings of "male spirituality" as it is described would seem to be in order.

As Patrick Arnold says, "most of the energy that drives the men's movement comes from the `secular' world of fairy tales and mythology, Jungian psychotherapy, anthropology, and New Age spirituality."<6> Of this mix, the most formative are mythology and Jungian psychology.

Carl Jung considered the unconscious to be the "source of creative power and insight."<7> Furthermore, he posited, on the basis of common motifs in dreams, that each individual has inherited a "collective unconscious" shared by the entire human race. These common motifs are images which have a powerful appeal to the imagination. They "act like spiritual beings with a life of their own" (Kelsey 76), and they are ambivalent, that is, they can be turned to good or evil. Jung calls these psychic images "archetypes." "The archetype must be honored for what it is, an image outside of the self that calls us to growth, change and awareness. In its negative form it can equally call us to evil and destruction."<8>

The way in which the collective unconscious and archetypes would tie in with mythology is apparent. The "mega-myth" or "super-archetype" (for males, at least) is that of the Hero. Arnold (40-41) goes so far as to say, "The activation of the Hero archetype is the single most important factor in the creation of a man's masculine identity." The three phases of the hero's quest are separation, ordeal, and return.

Several masculine archetypes are proposed on the basis of myth, fairy tale, and anthropology. Arnold discusses an even dozen, including the Hero and "the Christ archetype" (181). A few of these are predominant in the literature of the men's movement, however, namely King, Warrior, and Shaman. It should be noted that the Warrior is not a soldier under orders, but a sole combatant, or a leader who calls all the shots. The one archetype most often held up as a model for men in these books is that of the Wild Man. "Totally liberated from the trappings of modern civilization, he still possesses almost magical powers over the forces of nature and his animal brethren" (Arnold 35). The Wild Man is depicted as big, hairy, and naked. The story used by the mythopoetic movement to evoke the archetypal Wild Man is "Iron John" (Eisenhans) from Grimm's Fairy Tales.
(snip)

[keithyboy]

20. I have been screaming the same thing right here!!!

If we can't accept truth here where else can we accept it.

[Wonk]

5. Have to stay focused... have to take him down!

Poor Bush :eyes:

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nolabels]

33. Or AM radio,

It's okay though, because the FCC run by baby Colin isn't outraged.
Remember they are not talking about sex :argh:

[yorgatron]

2. democrat tells nader

"get &^%$#@#$^&*!"

[bluestateguy]

4. I hate Nader, but this time he is right

Al Gore did not "loosen up" until it was too late. One thing about Clark, Edwards and Dean was that they didn't let themselves get too scripted by consultants, though some scripting is necessary.

[Voltaire99]

9. Kerry should listen to Nader

The problem with Kerry isn't style. Style isn't going to beat Bush. Americans aren't saying, "Give us a looser, more-at-ease Democratic candidate, and we'll stop supporting this stupid war and the idiot president who's bungled everything since Day One. If the candidate's stiff and scripted, however, we'll just stay here and go down with the ship."

Nope. Kerry's problem is deeper: he isn't very compelling on the issues, and that's why Bush is taking him in the latest polls. People just aren't responding to the more-troops-for-Iraq and lower-taxes-for-corporations pitch. Those aren't really rallying cries, as Kerry by now will have noticed.

As Dean was able to do, Kerry needs to tell a convincing narrative that sets him apart from Bush. And if Kerry is incapable, he swiftly needs to find a running mate who can do so. It's shameful to be playing seesaw in the polls with this failure of a president. Get a move on, Kerry.

[Emillereid]

46. Amen!

Kerry should just let it rip -- get in touch with the younger man he used to be, who was passionate and sincere. Now he seems wooden and rehearsed -- too often he seems to just to string unrelated platitudes together (usually ones that have been applause lines) without any overarching meaning. He's got to get in touch with what he really believes and project that. It's not just about him, if you ABB folks are right, it's the pivotal moment in US history and a poor campaign will mean a horrible loss for us and the world. Get real Kerry!

[worldgonekrazy]

34. Nader is usually right

More often than the Democrats I would say, especially since his main point (that Democrats are owned by the same corporate masters as the Republicans) is so crucial to understanding politics today. You don't have to like the man's personal style (I personally think he is egotistical to the max), but he has a lot of VERY good points that Dems would do well to listen to.

[leftistagitator]

6. Hmm

Maybe there's a chance of patching this rift between Nader and the Party. He seems to be getting friendlier in the past few days.

[shockingelk]

8. He wanted Dean's VP spot

I can't imagine he'd want Kerry's. I'm an optimist, but I'm thinking Nader will pull out and give a half hearted endorsement to Kerry.

[Stephanie]

7. Actually, he's right

I would love to coach Kerry.

Dear Kerry Campaign! Allow me to coach your candidate in how to give a speech without orating. I can teach him to speak like a regular person in just a few easy lessons.

It wouldn't take much. He's a good speaker, he just has a stale style.

[shockingelk]

11. Are you young?

I said something similar to an associate - that he always sounds like he's promulgating instead of communicating ... I said it in the context of saying I liked Edward's demeanor more than Kerry's. My accountant said it was because Kerry is "old school" and older folks like their politicians to speak like that.

[Stephanie]

13. "Are you young" - what a question! Learn some manners!

Kerry thinks that speaking=orating.

Orating is old school.

Someone needs to break him of this habit.

I volunteer. I could coach him.

The problem is similar to Gore.

Clinton didn't have this problem.

[Just Me]

41. CSPAN aired his testimony against the Vietnam war,...

,...God, he was so passionate and focused and articulate. Nader IS right. Kerry needs to revive that focused passion. Hell, the people need to see that level of passion because it is inspiring and generates hope, both of which are on very short supply in this fractured country and world.

[countmyvote4real]

12. You're right. Get on it.

That has always been my biggest problem with Kerry. He drones and drones till you can't pay attention to what he's saying. On the other hand, I watched Clinton on C-span at the "unity" event and was mesmerized.

Go get him. If there is such a thing as practice time, it's going away quick.

[0007]

49. Even a little smile once in a while would do wonders.

[David__77]

14. As someone else posted, he's "old school."

That sums it up. I don't think it's bad necessarily, but it's not my thing. I have a friend (who's 25 and right-leaning) who will vote for Kerry and likes his "steady" demeanor and somewhat plodding style. She considers him highly intelligent.

I think he does need to connect on a more cultural level though. It's terribly important to connect on a seemingly superficial level. Otherwise the message might not get through. I'm not too worried though.

But I think "loosen up" is not bad advice. I think Nader is more concerned with defeating Bush than obstructing the Democrats. I understand anger with Nader, but I think at this point a united front is the best strategy. Nader can be the attack dog in ways a Democrat could never get away with.

[VolcanoJen]

16. I Hang on Every Word Ralph Says

::: not :::

Groovy, Ralph. Let's talk about the 9/11 Commission, when you find time to clear your schedule....

[Skidmore]

17. Since when is Nader such an expert

on winning a political office? What office has he won?

[asthmaticeog]

22. You could ask that question

about all of us armchair analysts here at D.U.

[skooooo]

18. How exactly is Kerry supposed to "loosen up"??

We've seen him ride a motorcycle on the "Tonight Show". Seen him ski, play hockey, play guitar....I don't get it.

[WitchWay]

40. Hmmm...

I don't think that Nader is advising Kerry to "loosen up" in these superficial ways which have absolutely nothing of political substance or value in them, and are only about "appearance". In fact, the superficial, unsubstantial Advertisment Marketing PR type of crap you describe -- only make Kerry seem like he is avoiding real issues with real substance and meaning in peoples lives -- and instead is truly running a "vanity" campaign. I, for one, am not impressed if a candidate poses as if the presidency were a fashion catalogue -- I want politicians to be more concerned with REAL matters of political significance.

I think Nader is advising Kerry to "cut loose" in a political sense, and to have self confidence based on principles that Kerry may have held when he was younger (before too many advisors and interests placed him into a compromised state). It's a suggestion that Kerry finding inspiration within himself, instead of looking outward. Kerry shouldn't have to worry, for instance, that his advisors may have questionable motives or agendas of their own.

Also, if Kerry starts to act more like a leader -- in which he will take somewhat unpopular viewpoints (war opposition, support of equal rights for gays)...and explains them with strong principles and follow through, he would be much more appealing than if he seems to be giving into polls/public opinion/his advisors. If Kerry stops appealing to everyone, and acting like a stronger leader -- he will stop being accused of flip-flopping, waffling, being vague on where he stands, and other nasty traits that politicians tend to have (which make so many distrustful of them).

Nader is right, and his words offer Kerry an excellent opening and oppurtunity. Nader is in this race, and Kerry can use this to his advantage or disadvantage.

[KG]

19. dang, did i miss the 'two minute hate'?

:eyes:

[dolstein]

23. Yeah, and I understand Jeffrey Dahmer told his victims to "lighten up"

NT

[nolabels]

25. That's a guy that really "did" make my skin crawl the.................\.

worst,well at least until the time before the selection of *

One really has to think how badly somebody must have been treated to have things go on like this. Then just to think it could get worse.

Jubilant Iraqis Drag Burned Body Through Streets
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=454550&mesg_id=454550

Maybe Hell is a place one saddles up with

[callous taoboy]

24. I agree

and just sent the DNC an e-mail saying not another dime will I contribute until I see Kerry come out swinging and passionate. In the words of Molly Ivins: "He ain't got Elvis." It seems to me that with the attention Clarke is getting, with bushy flip-flopping all over the place about the 9-11 commission and Condi testifying we have plenty of blood in the water.

[WitchWay]

42. Yep...

The thing is is for politicians to really come out swinging and passionate -- they are doing so from real principles and ideals that they deeply care about. A politician HAS to disentangle them from compromises to fight like that. Nader is suggesting, in coded language, that Kerry disnetangle himself from that which compromises him, which is the key to winning.

[Snivi Yllom]

26. that should do it...snicker

you can't make this stuff up

[yellowcanine]

27. Like a broken watch, Ralphie is right twice a day.

Congratulations Ralphie. Now shut up and drop out of the race, already.

[Snellius]

28. Thanks for the advice, Ralph. Now go away.

But Ralph's right.

[JPace]

29. Nadar may be a pig with lipstick on but....

sometimes even pigs can tell the truth.
Kerry needs to take off a little of his
pristine polish and get more "real".

We always have to wait for repugs to self
destruct because our politicians are soooo
scared of attacking even when they have
good cause.

[callous taoboy]

43. Yes

I mean, even Carter was loose at the unity meeting with the line, "Ralph, go back to looking at the back ends of cars."

[cleofus1]

30. i got an idea

somebody should run him over with a covair!

[messiah]

32. Are you talking about assassination? I hope your not........

[nolabels]

38. It's satire for us who like to read

My guess the poster was looking for a HUMORous relief

Delving into a old clip on Ralph, one could find plenty, but what's the point?

Here try it on, couldn't be any worse the some other things floating around

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:5iFFH4lZjPwJ:www.sptimes.com/News/100100/Worldandnation/What_to_make_of_Ralph.shtml+corvair+%2B+seat+belt+%2B+nader+%2B+fame&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
(snip)
A tort museum!

While his high school classmates were going out on dates, Nader was home reading the Congressional Record. He discovered a stack of them in the school library and convinced his senator, Prescott Bush, to get him a free subscription.

"It was wonderful," Nader says of the daily journal of the House and Senate. "It had so many excerpts from articles -- and the debates were fascinating."
At the family dinner table, his parents led a nightly discussion of current events. His father, Nathra Nader, quizzed young Ralph and his three siblings about issues near and far -- from the war in Europe to the infrastructure needs in their hometown of Winsted, Conn.

Nathra, a Lebanese immigrant who owned a bakery and restaurant, would tell his kids:

"Never look down at anybody, and never look up at anybody."

Ralph Nader earned his bookish reputation at Princeton University. In a 1972 biography, Nader: the People's Lawyer, a college roommate described him as "the kind of guy who would go to the bathroom and come back telling you all about the new book he finished reading while on the john."

Unsafe at Any Speed, Nader's muckraking account of the dangers of the Chevrolet Corvair, started a revolution in auto safety. Before it was published, the federal government did little to regulate the industry. The book led to a host of new laws that forced automakers to make safer cars.
(snip)

Btw I think Ralph is an amoral person, but thats just me

[aquart]

35. Tell Nader to get bent.

It's wrong to fantasize using his brass balls as cat toys.

[David Zephyr]

36. I Agree With Nader.

Get a life, folks. Everything that Ralph Nader says is not bad.

I see this as a compliment to Kerry, the man.

And, if truth be told, Nader's right: "He's got to stop talking Senate-ese and be the old John Kerry I knew 23 years ago."

I hope Kerry's people listen to this.

Assertions from the Kerry campaign like 'world leaders want him to be elected' have gotten John Kerry off to a weak start already...and the polls reflect this.

I hope to hell that Teresa gets involved to loosen Kerry up, too.

So, just get over Nader already, folks.

There is a collective neurosis here at the DU about this.

[Ganja Ninja]

37. Nader is right.

Like it or not he's right on the mark. And it goes for all the Democrats. Loosen up and fight back. Don't be afraid to offend Bush supporters. Laugh off his attack adds and ridicule his record. I mean take the add calling Kerry's economic record "troubling." He's leaving an opening for Kerry big enough to drive an oil tanker through. Kerry needs to be a little bit outrageous when answering Bush's attacks so he draws attention to himself and gets news coverage. If his response sticks in the mind of people watching Bush's add, then every time Bush runs the add people will associate it with Kerry's response.

[Catherine Vincent]

39. Kerry should "Get loose" and throw another pie in Nader's face!

[WitchWay]

47. run out of arguments...

Huh -- it's funny that people's attacks on Nader are so often things like he should die or be physically assaulted in some way. It shows that the democratic party isn't working. This sort of flailing shows that the Democratic party is in a position where it relies more and more on bullying its members (with fear and hatred) into emotionalism, instead of encouraging common sense, rational thought and political discourse that concerns REAL issues and policies.

The fact that instead of discussing how Kerry could adopt some of Naders platforms, or changes the dem party could make to be more appealing (like having stronger principles and ideals), or strategies that would work considering Nader IS in the race -- show's Nader IS right when he says that the reason the dems attack him in such absurd ways IS because they have run out of arguments.

[Catherine Vincent]

48. Don't lump me in with the poster that said he should die.

Thank you.

[tom_paine]

44. You know, this may be the first time in 5 years I agree with St. Ralph

n/t

[Algorem]

45. On the last segment on 'Whoopi' on nbc last night,her Republican brother

wanted to leave some Bush campaign signs in the lobby of her hotel,she tells him "Oh hell no..." and ends up telling him he can roll them up real tight and shove them up Ralph Nader's butt.