US couple 'tried to pass nuclear secrets to Venezuela'

[robcon]

Source: BBC

US couple 'tried to pass nuclear secrets to Venezuela'

The US has charged a pair of former nuclear contractors with attempting to leak nuclear secrets to Venezuela.

The husband and wife team were arrested on Friday in New Mexico and accused of passing nuclear information to an FBI agent posing as a Venezuelan spy.

US citizens Pedro and Marjorie Mascheroni were contractors at Los Alamos National Laboratory, a centre of US nuclear research.

The US justice department did not accuse Venezuela of wrongdoing.

"The conduct alleged in this indictment is serious and should serve as a warning to anyone who would consider compromising our nation's nuclear secrets for profit," Assistant Attorney General David Kris said in a statement.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11351535

[defendandprotect]

1. Aaah... Juslius & Ethel Rosenberg are back ...

and coincidentally, Chavez/Venezuela is the target!!


:rofl: :rofl:




:nuke:

[Green_Lantern]

3. so you're saying this was a set-up to get a war with Venezuela?

If they were going to do that it'd be Iran not Venezuela.

If these two were in Venezuela they'd be dead already.

[L.Torsalo]

10. Really?

Last I heard from family in Venezuela, the right to trial still exists.

[boppers]

14. If you live long enough to get a trial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_and_violence_in_Latin_America

[defendandprotect]

18. Yep. .. they probably don't have Habeas Corpus -- and probably being wiretapped... whatta ya think??

Maybe you haven't noticed, but the good ole "USA" is the one with the prison

industrial complex!!

[Green_Lantern]

55. so has our President arrested judges for making rulings he

Doesn't agree with?

Secondly your argument boils down to "He did it too."

[defendandprotect]

75. Who knows .... ???

Don't we still have secret detention, secret arrests -- and a corporate-press?

[Hannah Bell]

48. nothing that our friends columbia & brazil dont have.

[Green_Lantern]

57. Venezuela isn't being accused of anything...

I doubt Chavez would be this dumb.

[Hannah Bell]

69. uh, it's being accused of being especially crime-ridden by boppers.

[Green_Lantern]

70. no one's as bad as South Africa or Detroit.

nt

[boppers]

78. Except for Columbia or Venezuela.

It's bad all over.

Pointing fingers elsewhere won't fix that.

[Green_Lantern]

85. well some on here don't care...America is worse than Nazis to

Them...:sarcasm::

[Green_Lantern]

54. saying they'd be killed by now was a bit exaggerated but

Political opponents of the state are held in detention

Three U.N. human rights experts on Wednesday accused President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela of creating a climate of fear within his country's legal profession with the arrest last week of a judge. 

The three criticized the detention of Judge Maria Lourdes Afiuni, who was seized by police Dec. 10, a day after she ordered the conditional release of banker Eligio Cedeno.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/dec/17/world/la-fg-venezuela17-2009dec17

Judge Maria Lourdes Afiuni was arrested by police on December 10, a day after she ordered the conditional release of a long-imprisoned banker accused of fraud. 

Chavez has publicly denounced Afiuni and the banker, Eligio Cedeno, as "bandits," and has called for the judge to be given a 30-year jail sentence for corruption. 

New York-based HRW said the judge was right to free Cedeno because he had been in pretrial detention for nearly three years, despite a two-year limit prescribed by Venezuelan law. 

"Throwing a judge in prison for doing her job and issuing a decision that upholds fundamental rights protected under both Venezuelan and international law is not something you'd expect in a functioning democracy," Jose Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at the global rights watchdog, said in a statement.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6375A020100408

[defendandprotect]

19. I'm saying the original pair were a set up -- and that the elite follow patterns....

Chavez and Venezuela are two obvious targets --

Not that we wouldn't attack Iran, either!

[Green_Lantern]

53. if we attacked Iran I doubt it'd be a good political move for Obama...

Won't happen. But deficit spending on war would get us out of the recession if it was spent the way FDR did it. Now it all goes to contractors.

Secondly the Rosenbergs weren't set up...they were really spies.

[defendandprotect]

73. Nixon "uncovered" BOTH the Rosenbergs and Alger Hiss ....

Nison's involvement should be your first clue that both were set up --

The explosion of an atomic bomb by Russia in 1949 led to a search for spies in the American government, and it was discovered that David Greenglass, Ethel's brother, had passed secret information to Soviet agents. Greenglass implicated the Rosenbergs in his confession, and the Rosenbergs were arrested. Their trial lasted from March 6th through March 29th, 1951, and after appeals they were executed on June 20, 1953. A young Richard Nixon made a name for himself as the congressional investigator who originally uncovered the Rosenbergs' crime.

MORE ....
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_g1epc/is_bio/ai_2419201044/


Alger Hiss and Nixon --

MORE ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alger_Hiss



As Eisenhower noted, MIC invests in bombs which don't do any society very much good -- what we

need are schools, infrastructure -- arts/music in our schools -- universal health care ...

on and on --

[rayofreason]

98. Set up?...

...or real evidence?

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2520/were-ethel-and-julius-rosenberg-soviet-spies

[Taverner]

11. My guess is this whole thing is either a fabrication on the part of prosecutors or

These were just some deluded hippy couple who thought they were doing the right thing

[Green_Lantern]

56. you must be kidding

You really think 2 people who are nuclear scientists contracted by the govt. are just clueless hippies? Really?

Also they weren't doing it for the common good. They were driven by greed:

Mr Mascheroni asked about obtaining Venezuelan citizenship and said he hoped to be paid $800,000 (£512,000) for his services, the indictment states.

[defendandprotect]

74. Since they work for the government, fairly easy to "create" a spies scandal....

[hunter]

2. I get my basic nuclear weapon plans from wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-type_fission_weapon

It's cheaper that way.

[KeepItReal]

4. Shouldn't the title be "US couple 'tried to pass nuclear secrets to FBI agent'"?

I'm just sayin...

[Regret My New Name]

81. Pretty much...

Venezuela doesn't appear to have anything to so with. Well, other than the fact that they thought Agent Mike was Agent Chavez... or something

[alp227]

5. Former Los Alamos scientist indicted on nuclear charges

Source: CNN

Washington (CNN) -- A former Los Alamos National Laboratory nuclear scientist and his wife were indicted Friday on charges of trying to provide nuclear secrets to Venezuela, but U.S. officials stressed the Venezuelan government knew nothing about the plans.

The officials said they have no information from the undercover operation that Hugo Chavez's government has any plans to try to build a nuclear weapon.

Pedro Mascheroni, 75, and Roxby Mascheroni, 67, are U.S. citizens who worked as contractors at Los Alamos in New Mexico, officials said.

In 2008, Mascheroni had a series of conversations with an undercover FBI agent posing as an official of the Caracas government, according to the indictment.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/09/17/venezuela.nuclear/index.html

[WhiteTara]

6. how do they always run into the FBI?

Does the FBI recruit them? Or are all these people stupid? Or is the informant system that stellar?

[Ian David]

7. My guess is they posted the secrets on CraigsList. n/t

[boppers]

13. The FBI (and others) are *constantly* testing and scrutinizing Q and L folks.

These two apparently failed the test.

In a way, you question is not unlike asking why the border control catches immigrants... it's what they do.

[Green_Lantern]

59. I am okay with the FBI keeping tabs on disgruntled nuclear

scientists.

[Green_Lantern]

58. Well I get the feeling the FBI initiated contact with this particular

Couple because they knew he left Los Alamos on bad terms.

I'm guessing the FBI keeps track of all nuclear scientists especially disgruntled ones.

[WhiteTara]

77. thanks.

It sounds plausible that they would keep tabs on nuclear scientists. However, wouldn't that be considered entrapment?

[Green_Lantern]

83. not really not unless the FBI agent first went up to the guy knowing..

He was disgruntled and said "sell me nuclear secrets."

It's not entrapment if the scientist put the word he had info. to sell.

[WhiteTara]

86. right

:hi: thanks

[mike3121]

16. I have a nice supply of.......

I have a nice supply of nuclear hand grenades. Uh, you have to have a good throwing arm though.

[boppers]

26. Considering the smallest design was about 50 lbs, I'd say so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W54

[14thColony]

34. Trade you for a nuclear landmine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_Atomic_Demolition_Munition

[Odin2005]

8. BS!

[Taverner]

12. Yeah - something smells snooky (to use an old term)

[devilgrrl]

9. ....

:popcorn:

[Clovis Sangrail]

15. railroad

I've read a small pile of articles about this and can't find anything about any purloined documents or anything.
The methods for building a bomb aren't exactly secret.

[Green_Lantern]

60. it says it right in the OP article...

In July 2009, Mrs Mascheroni helped her husband write and edit a document containing US nuclear secrets, which Mr Mascheroni then delivered to a "dead drop location" for collection by the purported Venezuelan agent, according to the indictment.

[Clovis Sangrail]

82. forgive me if I don't believe the claim of "state secrets"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_secrets_privilege#Origins

Supreme Court recognition in United States v. Reynolds

The privilege was first officially recognized by the Supreme Court of the United States in the 1953 decision United States v. Reynolds (345 U.S. 1). A military airplane, a B-29 Superfortress bomber, crashed. The widows of three civilian crew members sought accident reports on the crash but were told that to release such details would threaten national security by revealing the bomber's top-secret mission.<1><2><3><4><5><6><9><10> The court held that only the government can claim or waive the privilege, and it “is not to be lightly invoked”, and last there “must be a formal claim of privilege, lodged by the head of the department which has control over the matter, after actual personal consideration by that officer.”<1> The court stressed that the decision to withhold evidence is to be made by the presiding judge and not the executive.<1>

In 2000, the accident reports were declassified and released, and it was found that the assertion that they contained secret information was fraudulent. The reports did, however, contain information about the poor condition of the aircraft itself, which would have been very compromising to the Air Force's case.

[Green_Lantern]

84. well he was indicted so the grand jury obviously believed there

Was enough evidence of state secrets being leaked to prosecute them.

In the case you mention the excuse of "national security" was being used to protect someone from sued and as it says the govt. and the Dept. of Defense hadn't even made formal claims that it was top secret.

In this nuclear scientists case the info he allegedly sold is formally classified as secret by the Dept. of Energy.

[Clovis Sangrail]

87. 0o

I suggest you research that case.
It's not just *some case ... it's the case that was used to establish the ability of the govt to use the claim of "state secrets" to with hold evidence based on national security concerns.
(used in both dismissal and prosecution)

The lawyers for the government DID argue - SUCCESSFULLY -that the information contained in the crash report contained classified information about a top secret air force operation and releasing this document in court would compromise national security.
The judge never saw the evidence and took the word of the air force lawyers that there was a national security issue.
That this is the case is obvious because the document in question contains nothing that could be considered a matter of national security.

What the court was "stressing" about it being the right of judiciary to make the decision doesn't mean the judge has to look at "state secret" in question (most judges probably don't have the security clearance to see it anyway) - only that they are the ones that make the final decision.


As for grand jury indictment ... guilt and thinking there is enough evidence to bring a criminal case are two very different things.

I don't know if he Mascheroni was giving out state secrets ... but based on what we *do know it seems that there may be a case against him for treason but based on his age, prior interviews with him and the information that we know he *did give over it seems unlikely.
Couple this with the unknowns of how initial contact was made and the seemingly "questionable timing" in relation to Venezuelan politics and I think it's fair to say that there is *far* from enough known about this to presume that Mascheroni was in fact trading in state secrets.

[Green_Lantern]

88. the cases are not the same though..

One case(the Air Force case) involved the govt. invoking "state secrets" to keep judges or the public from getting records they were entitled to know.

The other case involves a nuclear scientist allegedly trying to sell info. that was marked classified. Even if the info wasn't really hardcore state secrets he intended to sell info marked classified.

I know an indictment doesn't mean he's being found guilty but it does mean a grand jury believes that the info being allegedly traded was truly "classified".

I doubt he'll be convicted of treason but definitely see him being convicted of something.

[Clovis Sangrail]

89. the cases may be different but the concept is identical

my issue is the trustworthiness of government claims of "state secrets" or "classified"

I don't want to know what the claimed secrets are - nor do I want them publicized.
I'd like to see somebody qualified in the field make that determination and a public statement that has happened.

As of now all we have is a claim of state secrets with no information that anybody (judge or grand jury) has been able to see the "state secret" in question a determine if it has indeed been leaked.
The case I noted clearly points out the folly of simply trusting the government regarding this claim.

[Green_Lantern]

90. I'm just saying I don't think it matters....the info was marked classified

And the guy leaked it. His intent was to sell classified information.

[Clovis Sangrail]

93. and I'm saying it *does* matter

What was the info that was classified and how do we know he leaked it?
(aside from the prosecuting agency *saying* he did)
Somebody needs to a)look at the claimed leaked information b)compare that to the actual classified information c)judge if the classified information *should be classified


The govt has proven to be less than trustworthy in similar cases so just taking their word for it isn't a rational response.

[rabs]

17. Connecting some of the dots

Venezuela will have parliamentary elections on Sept. 26. Chavez's PSUV party is expected to win two-thirds of the seats against the U.S. backed (and USAID/NED financed) rightwing opposition.

So, last night, Obama's White House issued a report that Venezuela is NOT cooperating in the fight against illegal drugs (which are smuggled to Venezuela from U.S. ally Colombia). Today Chavez replied that as the world's biggest consumer of illicit drugs, the United States does not have the moral authorities to judge other nations.

Then today this murky story that sublimely tries to create an image of "spies, nuclear weapons and Venezuela."

These are merely the latest clumsy attempts to smear Chavez's oft-elected socialist government.

As for Chavez and nuclear energy, in April of this year, in a meeting with Putin, Chavez said both nations would cooperated in the issue of nuclear energy.

"We are not going to make an atomic bomb, but we are going to develop nuclear energy for peaceful ends. We have to prepare for the post-petroleum era."

Last Tuesday, Chavez proposed creation of a Venezuelan high-tech center to investigate linking hydroelectric, thermoelectric, wind, solar and nuclear programs.

-----

As for the Los Alamos "spy," he stopped working at the labs in 1988 (22 YEARS AGO) and he said, "La verdad es que no les vendí nada importante. Todo lo que les pasé lo saqué de Internet."

(The truth is that I did not sell them anything important. All that I passed to them I got from the internet.")

For those who read Spanish:

http://www.telesurtv.net/noticias/secciones/nota/78491-NN/eeuu-detiene-a-cientificos-por-suministrar-informacion-nuclear-a-falso-agente-venezolano/

[Judi Lynn]

20. The TRUTH sounds so much different, doesn't it? Good grief!

So he has NO new, current information of any kind whatsoever, having quit his position 22 years ago.

This reminds me so much of the handfull of poor men, some Haitian immigrants, in Miami the FBI attempted to trap, using an "informant" who offered them clothes, camers, boots, cars, etc. which attracted them to pay more attention to him, and serve as his "terrorists" in three separate trials the US government threw at them, with the first two failing completely.

The US had to keep dragging them back, and then not allowing certain parts of earlier trials to be admitted before they got the verdict they were after.

I recall seeing articles and comments in the Miami Herald leading readers to know the entire town thought it was a farce.

Sounds absolutely no different here. A totally agreessive, crude attempt to trap someone for the benefit of political propaganda to futher gubmint interests.

Thanks SO MUCH FOR looking for more accurate information for DU members. Nothing like the truth, and it's almost impossible for ordinary people to find in the corporate media.

[rabs]

21. Judi, more of what is not being told

The FBI searched and confiscated his files and records almost ONE YEAR AGO. That was before it was revealed today that an FBI agent was posing as a representative for the Venezuelan government of Hugo Chavez.

There is a news video on the link (from Albuquerque TV station) that I highly recommend -- it is Mascheroni giving his version of the story nearly ONE YEAR AGO.

So once again, why was this story only released today, ten days before the elections in Venezuela ???

--------------------------------

Updated: Thursday, 22 Oct 2009, 10:02 AM MDT
Published : Thursday, 22 Oct 2009, 12:45 AM MDT

Jim Winchester
Bill Diven
LOS ALAMOS, N.M. (KRQE) - A former Los Alamos scientist whose home was searched by the FBI earlier this week told KRQE News 13 Wednesday he's suspected of spying for Venezuela.

The FBI raided the home of P. Leonardo Mascheroni on Monday and removed computers, several cell phones and boxes of files.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The full argument for the FBI is based on the information I gave, that these are secrets, real secrets that I was selling the United States national security by giving them to Venezuela," Mascheroni told News 13. "That's what they have to prove."

Mascheroni said all the information he gave could be found on the Internet.

"Nothing was secret," he said. "Everything there was unclassified."

---------------------
http://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/technology/technology_krqe_los_alamos_nm_ex_lab_scientist_fears_treason_charge_200910220045

[boppers]

24. "Found on Internet" vs. Classified?

Whoo boy. Looks like he might have a legal problem or two, because "I can find it on the internet" doesn't explain away a dead drop in exchange for cash... also, most of the secrets are on the internet, yes, but that doesn't mean that they're easily assembled and understood as a whole.

"Mascheroni said he was promised $800,000 by a Venezuelan government representative but added he planned to take the money to Congress to get its attention about faulty weapons designs.

In exchange for information on nuclear weapons, he said he was only paid $20,000 delivered in a sealed envelope which he never opened. He was holding the money until he could get more payments to confirm the Venezuelan government representative was legitimate, he added."

[Judi Lynn]

35. Deeply dirty. Venezuela had nothing whatsoever to do with this, didn't approach the guy,

and this STILL is being used as part of the underhanded, behind everyones' backs, slow-moving war on Hugo Chavez. If they can't succeed by turning the country against him by stealth, in order to support whatever hostilities they've got up their sleeves, they may just have to go for an "Operation Northwoods" ploy, in the end.

Right on cue, the Los Angeles Times has done the honors of launching the assault with this opinion:

Venezuela turning into global menace
Published: Saturday, Sept. 18, 2010 12:00 a.m. MDT By John R. Bolton, For the Los Angeles Times

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700066384/Venezuela-turning-into-global-menace.html

Unbelievable. It's pure crap, yet it's so vivid, it will stick in the minds of people too lazy to get off their butts and research the subject. This is the dirtiest play I've seen being conducted right in front of our eyes. It was so preposterous earler we all didn't bother to worry because we didn't think anyone would take them seriously.

Looks as if they intend to go all out with this and try to destroy the Venezuelans' elected President for real.

[ngant17]

47. I remember the attack agaist FARC at Ecuador's border

by Colombian military, which hit the camp with a US-supplied guided missile. Then a suspicious laptop with all sorts of incriminating "evidence" was found (Chavez was supposedly funding the group). Right when negotiations were almost finalized to release Betancourt, who in fact went on to denounce Colombia for the attack.

Colombia implemented trickery and deception when it wasn't necessary or even useful to solving a crisis. The so-called demobilization of paras is another case in point.

They don't want any kind of peaceful resolution to the problems, and they will lie, invent things and then fabricate a war as the primary means of justifying and maintaining control and power. If it involves Venezuela, especially true.

[Green_Lantern]

65. Venezuela isn't being accused of anything

The govt. even said there's no evidence of wrongdoing by Venezuela.

[Green_Lantern]

63. no...the entire case was just revealed because the couple

Was just recently indicted.

The FBI wasn't going to talk about the case DURING an ongoing investigation.

[Green_Lantern]

62. it's not THE TRUTH....it's an accused spy claiming innocence..

How do you know he's not lying?

[The abyss]

22. You have to love this type of nonsense!

See post # 17 by rabs for the reality check.

IIRC these people had computers confiscated in 08 or so when Los Alamos was raided of computer files by one of the homeland insecurity groups.

Very interesting timing on this arrest – makes me wonder….

Again – see post #17.

[rabs]

23. Keen memory there amigo

See post #21 to refresh ... (actually it was 11 months ago, Oct. 2009.)

So they trot out it out now. Makes one wonder ....

Don't miss the video on the link. This was before it became known only today that it was a clumsy, devious, undehanded FBI shenanigan ... (to smear Venezuela?)

A shenanigan ordered by whom ??

[The abyss]

25. I stand corrected, 2009

So many lies to keep track of. :)

One hell of a lot of slack time to make an arrest on a spy supposedly selling “nuclear secrets”.

[boppers]

27. Wasn't a threat, hence, no reason to act quickly.

Selling wikipedia articles for $20,000 isn't the work of a master sleuth.

[Green_Lantern]

66. they were building a case....they're not going to make arrests

Until the investigation is done.

[EFerrari]

64. The State Department is spending millions to run against Chavistas.

Our tax money at work.

[David__77]

28. I would love Venezuela to increase its self-defense capacity.

And the NPT is bullshit and should be scrapped at the earliest possible date. The developing countries will raise as a second superpower in the coming decades, and the nuclear monopoly will be broken.

[Pavulon]

29. guess they need to spend the trillions on r&d

or they can just steal the whole thing from the US or Russia. If they get nukes that just increases the chances they incinerate each other.

[David__77]

30. Obviously it would be smarter to steal it.

No competent intelligence agency wouldn't be working on economic and military espionage. Only one country so far has militarily used nuclear weapons: not Russia, not China, not India, not Pakistan, not North Korea... it was the United States.

[Pavulon]

31. we nuked caracas? i know better to question che jesus

but seriously why do they need a thermonuclear weapon. And if they do they can nut up like north Korea and bail on the NPT.

No competent agency here would hesitate to feed them bullshit to waste their time and money.

[David__77]

32. They'd do better to get information from Russia.

I don't think Venezuela should expend much effort on a nuclear program. I think that there are better ways to achieve self-defense without straining the economy. But inter-power rivalries should be exploited in order to gain leverage. Back in the Cold War era, certain countries were expert at this.

[Pavulon]

61. I am sure Russia will transfer missiles, re-entry vehicle, guidance, and physics

on second hand not. They would be better working on their power grid.

[Green_Lantern]

67. that's not too progressive....you want more countries to have nukes?

What are you smoking?

[pitohui]

33. wow the new rosenburgs we're afraid of wait for it...venezuela now?

hm-kay sorry mr. fbi man if these are real evildoers my bad but for fuck sake what's next telling me someone sold nuclear secrets to gran fenwick???

in my day i not only had to walk to school 3 miles uphill both ways but the RUSSIANS were smart enough to build fucking nuclear bombs!!!!! you're gonna scare me w. freaking venezuela...c'mon...even the russians couldn't bomb us to crap i'm not gonna worry about some crack seller in venezuela getting on his hind legs and AT BEST blowing up a pizza parlor

[Vidar]

36. The only thing wrong with "Dr. Strangelove" was that it underestimated

the extremes to which our spooks & military-industrial types will go.

[steven johnson]

37. Couple Accused of Passing Nuclear Arms Secrets -- to help Venezuela build an atom bomb.

Source: NY Times

A physicist and his wife, who both once worked at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, were arrested Friday and charged with a criminal conspiracy to help Venezuela build an atom bomb.

Physicist P. Leonardo Mascheroni has been indicted on federal charges of communicating classified nuclear weapons data.
The arrests of P. Leonardo Mascheroni and Marjorie Roxby Mascheroni and a 22-count indictment came after a sting operation by the Federal Bureau of Investigation from 2008 to 2009. A raid on the couple’s home in Los Alamos last October hauled away cameras, computers and hundreds of files.

“If I were a real spy,” Dr. Mascheroni told a reporter at the time, declaring his innocence, “I would have left the country a long time ago.”

After their arrests on Friday, the couple appeared in federal court in Albuquerque. They were charged with handing over secret weapons information to an F.B.I. agent posing as a Venezuelan spy. The government did not accuse the Venezuelan government, or anyone working for it, of seeking weapons secrets.


Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/18/us/18scientist.html?_r=1&hp

[Jade Fox]

38. Is how to build an atom bomb some big secret?

Pardon my ignorance, but......

[MrModerate]

39. The theory is well known . . . the engineering -- deep, dark secrets.

Very complicated and requiring manufacturing infrastructure and expertise that even developed countries find difficult to duplicate. It's easier if all you want to do is drive such a weapon to its target by truck. Put it in a bomb or a missle and you're talking very, very challenging.

Besides, most countries with the industrial capability are sufficiently plugged into international nonproliferation aggreements that they just don't start such projects.

[Jade Fox]

41. thanks for the info......nt

[TheMadMonk]

49. Yes and no. For a small compact portable device the engineering is definitely...

...very hairy. Plutonium is also difficult to work with because the atoms split almost as soon as they adsorb a neutron. Thus for a high yield device a lot of peices have to be assembled within microseconds. Uranium takes a little while to split after adsorbing a neutron, so there is much less need for finess. Mechanical assembly is feasible.

For a basic device with a yeild in the low kt range, all that is needed is a 3+ storey building with a basement, 15+ m of 3" or 4" steampipe, a lot of concrete and the fissile materials. (Very high grade enriched uranium.) Berylium or another neutron reflector is a bonus but not strictly necessary. However, if you can get the uranium, sourcing it should be a doddle.

Odds are the result will be a nuclear squib, but it will always be a very dirty one due to the explosion taking place just below ground. A great many square miles would be severely contaminated even at very low yields.


Assuming access to the uranium, nuclear terrorism is as easy as any other operation, possibly far easier due to the simplified logistics. It's also in my opinion a low probability scenario regardless of accessibility. It simply can't be used without committing ideological suicide. Allies would not just desert, they'd hand you over on a platter to the world. Almost any extremist position held by the perpetrators would become anathaema overnight.

The one risk that can't be discounted would be End Timers securing control of a large nuclear arsenal and simply blowing up the world to get things moving. Simple proliferation though is a non-starter. It gives nations a final strike option and that's about it.

[MrModerate]

50. Well, I was thinking along the lines of something more-or-less portable . . .

But your scenario seems reasonable -- as reasonable as anything that would result in the deaths of tens of thousands of people can be.

[hunter]

51. It's 1940's technology, fer goodness sake.

It's not like making a gigahertz multi-core microprocessor or terabyte hard drive or something.

The "secret" is how they fit the gadget together with scotch tape and tissue paper.

[MrModerate]

71. I challenge you to put together a working nuclear device with . . .

scotch tape and tissue paper. I'll even spot you the fissile material.

[hunter]

72. It's possible the USA can't even do it reliably anymore...

... not with all those old components deteriorating faster than cheap pot metal.

People get old, retire, and pass away taking a certain amount of technical intuition and experience with them. Secrecy only increases the losses.

I'm so cynical now I believe the nuclear test ban treaties were made to save face by all sides. The U.S. nuclear arsenal and most certainly the Soviet arsenal was never maintained in a fully reliable state, only at the level required to support a doctrine of nuclear deterrence which involved a lot of bluff and swagger.

Technically fussy, expensive, and unreliable weapons with a short and highly indeterminate shelf life do not contribute to anyone's security. The most reasonable thing to do with nuclear weapons is to dismantle them and convert the fissionable components to MOX fuel.

Here's the origin of the scotch tape and tissue paper story for you:

http://www.abqjournal.com/trinity/trinity2.pdf

[TheMadMonk]

76. Stuff the building super's mouth with tissue. Scotch tape to bind him.

Use building maintenance account to order concrete and steampipe.

[Downwinder]

40. Dup.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4544161

[Peace Patriot]

42. !@#$% the New York Slimes!!!

Couple Accused of Passing Nuclear Arms Secrets
By WILLIAM J. BROAD
Published: September 17, 2010

A physicist and his wife, who both once worked at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, were arrested Friday and charged with a criminal conspiracy to help Venezuela build an atom bomb.

Physicist P. Leonardo Mascheroni has been indicted on federal charges of communicating classified nuclear weapons data.

The arrests of P. Leonardo Mascheroni and Marjorie Roxby Mascheroni and a 22-count indictment came after a sting operation by the Federal Bureau of Investigation from 2008 to 2009. A raid on the couple’s home in Los Alamos last October hauled away cameras, computers and hundreds of files.

“If I were a real spy,” Dr. Mascheroni told a reporter at the time, declaring his innocence, “I would have left the country a long time ago.”

After their arrests on Friday, the couple appeared in federal court in Albuquerque. They were charged with handing over secret weapons information to an F.B.I. agent posing as a Venezuelan spy. The government did not accuse the Venezuelan government, or anyone working for it, of seeking weapons secrets.

(MORE)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/18/us/18scientist.html?_r=2&hp

-------------------------------------------

Look what the lede says! Then look where the disclaimer is, five paragraphs down, exonerating the Venezuelan government of ANY participation in this TRUMPED UP !@#$% psyops to drag Venezuela's name through the mud and probably to !@#$% set up another oil war!

I am so sick of this! It infuriates me to see the !@#$% lies that have been run in this slimebag war profiteer garbage can liner about Venezuela. This is not journalism. This and their Simon Romero hit pieces against the Chavez government are the cheapest, slimiest, dirtiest, low down rotten propaganda and disinformation I have ever seen! They are not alone. The entire corpo-fascist press corps has been copying & pasting CIA memos about Venezuela for at least five years now. But they are the once highly regarded, self-puffed up "paper of record" and all the news outlets take their cue from these greasy, good-for-nothing, Iraq War-promoting, lying, blood-on-their-hands, war profiteers who dare to call themselves "the Fifth Estate."

They are DISGUSTING!

:puke:

[14thColony]

43. Yes, pretty obvious wasn't it?

I'm assuming it's beneficial for someone that "Venezuela" and "nukes -- scary scary!!" are now linked to each other amongst the low-reading-comprehension-level demographic.

Look for Iran to be linked to Venezuela's fictitious quest for a bomb next.

[hunter]

52. FBI snares bitter old man in pigeon drop.

The New York Times is on it!!!

[rabs]

44. Headline in DU subject line is incorrect and misleading

The NYT headline says:

Couple Accused of Passing Nuclear Arms Secrets

(It does NOT say "to help Venezuela build an atom bomb"), that is in the text of the lede. And by the way, the charge is "criminal conspiracy," not of actually passing nuclear secrets.

[classysassy]

45. When is Jonathan Pollard

coming home? Oh I forgot we don't indict Israeli spies.

[maddezmom]

46. he's in jail

Sentencing and incarceration
Pollard was sentenced to life in prison on one count of espionage on March 4, 1987. The prosecutor complied with the plea agreement and asked for "only a substantial number of years in prison"; Judge Aubrey Robinson, Jr., not being obligated to follow the recommendation of the prosecutor, and after hearing a "damage-assessment memorandum" from the Secretary of Defense, imposed a life sentence.<31> In 1987, Pollard began his life sentence, which he is still serving. Pollard's wife, Anne, was sentenced to five years in prison but was paroled after three and a half years because of health problems. Following the end of Anne's parole, she emigrated to Israel. Jonathan divorced Anne, citing that he believed he was going to be jailed for the remainder of his life and did not want Anne to be bound to him.<21>

At the time of Pollard's sentencing there was a rule that mandated parole at thirty years for prisoners like him if they had maintained a clean record in prison. That parole date would be November 21, 2015. Also, Pollard was eligible to apply for parole after eight years and six months, though he has never done so.<32>

Pollard has the Federal Bureau of Prisons ID #09185-016 and is incarcerated in FCI Butner Medium at the Butner Federal Correction Complex near Butner, North Carolina. His projected release date is November 21, 2015.<33>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

[Green_Lantern]

68. Pollard was indicted, tried, and convicted

By why even mention Israel?

[Mefistofeles]

79. That was entrapment

There was never a real Venezuelan involved in the operation. It was an FBI agent posing as a Venezuelan for some reason.

[24601]

80. It's not entrapment if they were predisposed to commit the act. No

doubt their attorney will try the same argument. President Obama's FBI on the other hand has been doing these stings long enough to avoid entrapment.

[Green_Lantern]

91. that's not entrapment...for instance police pose as 12 y/o girl

Online and a 25 y/o guy invites "her" to his house for sex isn't entrapment...he had intent to commit the crime.

Police are allowed to lie to suspects.

[Clovis Sangrail]

94. those stings are a shining example of justice gone awry

48 y/o guy shows up at 12 y/o's house with condoms and is confronted by police ... he still hasn't actually molested a 12 y/o.

He *could still stop himself at any point up to the actual act... that most of those who show up wouldn't isn't sufficient excuse to jail the (presumably) small percentage that would.
... at least not on a charge of molestation.

I can "intend" to kill my boss every day before I go to work ... and every day think better of it by the time I get there.
If I never actually kill my boss I haven't committed the crime.

[Green_Lantern]

95. they aren't charged with molesting the teen girl but solicitation of a

Minor.

Trying to convince a child to have sex is a crime. And I'm glad they are put in jail.

But no...they can't be convicted of rape but it does force them to be registered as sex offenders and they'll probably be humiliated.

[ProudDad]

92. Fail (n/t)

[TheWatcher]

96. These people just don't get it. You have to be WAR CRIMINALS if you want to avoid accountability.

Going out of the box with these exotic high risk, low reward criminal schemes is just asking to get incarcerated or worse.

Bush and Cheney should open a Crime School so at least people could take courses and make the right career choices.

You just hate to see a waste of good criminal talent like this.

[Green_Lantern]

97. almost every President have been accused of being war criminals

nt

[TheWatcher]

99. While that may be true, Bush and his Cabal actually Are. You can be in terminal denial if you want.

It doesn't change reality.

[Green_Lantern]

100. well you can argue that about most Presidents..

Yugoslavia can argue Clinton is a war criminal for NATO bombings, etc. It's relative.

[TheWatcher]

101. With Bush and Cheney it is not "relative."

And if the shoe fits Clinton, or ANYBODY else that is guilty, let than man wear it.

As if this nuance applies as any sort of justification for no accountability.

Honestly. :eyes:

"In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night, Let Reality Be Denied With All My Might."

:rofl:

[Green_Lantern]

102. it's not really denial...I'm not denying we invaded Iraq...

I'm saying that's not a war crime.

[TheWatcher]

103. Yes, you are in denial. Because we Invaded Iraq based on lies and fabricated inteligence.

Over a million dead Iraqi's and 5000 US Soldiers (That we know of), because of an Invasion based on NOTHING other than the desire of Bush and his Cabal to do so. FALSE, FABRICATED EVIDENCE was given to the UN as the basis for attack.

It is a crime.

Wake Up.

Oh, I know, we should just MOVE ON, for the GOOD OF THE COUNTRY.

:eyes:

[Green_Lantern]

105. well that's a crime against peace then not a war crime

Principle VI of the Nuremberg principles distinguishes between war crimes and crimes against peace.

# Crimes against peace:

1. Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;
2. Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).

War crimes:
Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation to slave-labor or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in occupied territory, murder or ill treatment of prisoners of war, of persons on the seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.

http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-nurem.htm

[MikeW]

104. hang em