Bush campaign calls Kerry's Biblical criticism "exploitation of Scripture"

[54anickel]

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/politics/8300008.htm

ST. LOUIS - John Kerry cited a Bible verse Sunday to criticize leaders who have "faith but has no deeds," prompting President Bush's spokesman to accuse Kerry of exploiting Scripture for a political attack.

Kerry never mentioned Bush by name during his speech at New North Side Baptist Church, but aimed his criticism at "our present national leadership." Kerry cited Scripture in his appeal for the worshippers, including James 2:14, "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?"

"The Scriptures say, what does it profit, my brother, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?" Kerry said. "When we look at what is happening in America today, were are the works of compassion?"

Bush campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt said Kerry's comment "was beyond the bounds of acceptable discourse and a sad exploitation of Scripture for a political attack."



Well, it's not like he dedicated the reading to Shrub. Sheesh. :eyes:

[Gman]

1. The Shrub people haven't been reading DU

when we discuss the fundies stuck in the old testament and Jesus being the original liberal Democrat.

[LeighAnn]

31. Selective Old Testamentism

They only believe in the Old Testament when it suits their needs. They'd like to see homosexuals sent to hell, but try to get them to give up their bacon; it won't happen. Tell them, "No shopping or eating out after church!" and see what kind of reaction you get. Shoney's is full every Sunday of Christianly church-goers eating ham and grousing about gay marriage.

[Roaming]

88. Statements regarding homosexuality appear in the new testament,

not just the old testament...

[TankLV]

94. That is a LIE. Jeeus never mentioned ANYTHING about homosexuality.

Proove it.

[tex46]

97. A technicality

Jesus never said anything about homosexuality, but but Paul (who some political scholars believe to have been homosexual himself) mentions it a couple of times.

[TankLV]

117. Since when is the truth a technicality?

Seems to be only a technicality to repukes and their sympathizers.

It is not "a technicality" - it's a FACT.

Proove it.

List the quotes.

[Terran]

2. He said it in a church

And besides, whether it's scripture or not, it's entirely to the point.

[DemLikr]

3. These Repub nerds are unbelievable...

after three years of framing Shrub as a "man of faith," they have the chutzpah to try to nail Kerry; and for an accurate use of the scriptures at that.

These fucks are shameless, which is a big part of why they are so successful. Shameless works well with stupid Americans.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

4. The NeoCons don't like it when they get religion thrown back...

...in their faces.

The reading should have been dedicated to Junior.

[Just Me]

75. What was that Shub said about a log in one's own eye?

Heh, heh, heh.

Geez, another one of those, "it's okay for us to quote the Bible 'cause we have been saved,...as for you, it can only be the devil's work". What a buncha hypocrites of the extreme variety!!!

[mzmolly]

85. Totally. I LOVE THIS. I WANT MORRRRRRE!!!!!!

YAHOO!!

[Democat]

5. No Democrat may ever read the bible!

What a joke these idiots are.

Someone please search out all the religious quotes that Bush continues to use in political ways.

[54anickel]

8. He's the chosen one, so in his mind every word he utters should be

considered scripture.

[mzmolly]

86. Well Shrubby claimed "God told me to strike at Al Qaida"

:eyes:

[qanda]

6. Oh, now they own the Bible too

Please, give me a break! Mr. "voice of one crying in the wilderness".

"President Bush Announces Combat Operations in Iraq Have Ended", White House Official Press Release, May 1, 2003.

"In the words of the prophet Isaiah, "To the captives, 'come out,' -- and to those in darkness, 'be free.'" Isaiah 49;9, NIV

[Sugarbleus]

59. ROFLMAO!!!!!!-->'Mr voice crying out in wilderness'...lol lol

Good one pbl.....

[skooooo]

104. Halliburton owns copyrights......

Kerry should have checked I guess...lol.

[RoadRunner]

105. Hi skooooo, Welcome to DU!

Glad ya' found us! :hi:

[skooooo]

118. Thanks!

Me too! Should be an interesting 7 months. Hope things turn out good for the Democrats.

[Lindsay]

7. So quoting the Bible in church is

"beyond the bounds of acceptable discourse."

'Scuse me while my head explodes.

:nuke:

[havocmom]

49. Quoting bible in chruch = bad

using religion in government = good
WTF?
I took a nap and when I awoke, my contry was gone.
I am taking my country back.

[The Backlash Cometh]

9. I think this cuts to the core of the way the Christian Right practice

religion. Their interpretation is the only correct interpretation. Everyone else is a heathen. Kerry's got it right.

[theshadow]

10. These bozos...

.... have spent years convincing themselves that Democrats are all athiests and the conservative agenda is from the GOP's lips to God's ear. Kerry's speech was an in-your-eye response. I love it.

[Supormom]

56. Yes, I love it too!

Let's hope he continues to throw it back at them.

[Democat]

11. Let's post links to right wingers quoting from the bible

Charles W. Pickering, appointed by Bush to the Federal Appeals Court:

Pickering “called on Baptists to be about ‘God’s work’ in helping influence morality. ‘We as Southern Baptists should lead the way in strengthening traditional moral values,’ he said, adding that society has been degraded by such things as pornography, homosexuality and divorce.” “Baptist Head Urges Moral Values,” The Clarion-Ledger, (Nov. 13, 1984).

http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=1220

[Democat]

16. Trent Lott using the bible to attack gays

Lott didn't mention the words gay or homosexual but reached for the euphemism "people with problems." He defended his comments about gays, saying "I'll tell you where I got it, I got it from the Bible"

http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=3937

[Democat]

21. Republicans quoting the bible to attack gays in 1996

During yesterday's debate, some members quoted passages from the Bible to support their contention that God meant marriage to be a union of a man and a woman. Anything else threatens the survival of American culture, they said.
"A God-given principal is under attack," said Rep. Steve Buyer, R-Ind.

http://www.s-t.com/daily/07-96/07-13-96/a03wn021.htm

[Democat]

22. Newt Gingrich quoting from the bible while Clinton was president

The Republicans have held three crisis meetings since the coup attempt. Gingrich and others quoted a lot from the Bible, but there was no discussion about the questions that were the basis of the attempted coup.

http://www.pww.org/archives97/97-08-02-3.html

[hang a left]

77. Here is one I found by the Satan worshipping POSPOTUS*

Summarizing the current situation as "both an opportunity and a test for all parties in the Middle East: an opportunity to lay the foundations for future peace, a test to show who's serious about peace and who is not," the American President then emphasized the element of choice involved for Israelis and Palestinians alike, by quoting Deuteronomy 30:19.

"The choice here is stark and simple, the Bible says, 'I have set before you life and death, therefore choose life.' The time has arrived in this conflict to choose peace and hope and life," Bush said.

Deuteronomy 30:19 -- a fitting end to a speech

It was a fitting end to a speech in which the President called for all parties involved on both sides of the Mideast conflict to "break with the past and set out on a new path" and to "overcome the darkness with the light of hope."

Deuteronomy is the fifth book of the Bible, and the final book of what is known as the Pentateuch (a word that means five books), and includes the first four books of the Old Testament as well: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers. The Pentateuch books are also called books of the law because they contain God's instructions and laws for the nation of Israel. They are believed to have been written by Moses, a man revered by Christians, Jews and Muslims alike. Deuteronomy means, "second law", and it contains Moses' personal challenge to the people he loved and had led out of captivity in Egypt towards the Promised Land.

http://www.biblenetworknews.com/northamerica/062602_usa1.html

[54anickel]

79. Great find!! n/t

[Skip Intro]

12. Ha! They don't have a knee to kneel on.

bush has claimed that God has personally talked to him; he, and powell last week, described the wot as a "crusade"; another infected testified that the regime was "doing the Lord's work"; google "bush god" images and look at the visual exploitation of Christian symbols.

Oh yeah, and let's go all the way back to 2000 when our great thinker bush answered that his favorite philosopher was "Jesus."

9*11 as a campaign theme is slipping away from them, and the thought of not having exclusive claim to all things Christian is driving them nuts.

the more they complain about this, the more they hurt themselves.

[The Magistrate]

13. Sen. Kerry's Text Was A Most Appropriate One

Though far from a believer myself, the Epistle of James is my favorite among the New Testament works, and Sen. Kerry has used it properly in this instance. It engages the contradictions of spiritual claims to salvation most effectively, and leaves in tatters the idea that salvation by grace can exist without works of charity and fellowship giving evidence of its reality. Further, it makes quite clear that these must be material: simply praying for others' salvation does not suffice. It is not a text much preached on nowadays, for it is most discomfitting to the apostles of easy grace who pass themselves off as divines among the evangelicals nowadays.

"Behold, the hire of the laborers who have reaped down your fields, which by you is kept back in fraud from them, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[54anickel]

24. Perhaps he should have read the section before this on favoritism?

Would have been even more fitting for Shrub. :evilgrin:

[The Magistrate]

28. That Would Have Been Wicked, Ma'am

Though most appropriate....

"For if there come into your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; and if ye have respect for him that weareth the goodly apparel, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place, and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool; are you not then partial in yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Sugarbleus]

60. Mag, WELL STATED... this is the real deal... let's stick it in their eye..

[jobycom]

14. Breaking: Bush rewrites Bible, removes references to love and charity

Also tackles those pesky anti-war slogans peppered throughout the Sacred Text. Says Bush, "Jesus constantly attacked the Pharisees and the Saducees. He was an anti-Semite. We must reclaim the Word of God for America, and cleanse it of the words of traitors, and evil-doers. Even God makes mistakes, so I have to correct them."

[still_one]

18. How can he rewrite the bible?

bush doesn't read

[jobycom]

33. No, he doesn't read, but he dictates. Get it? nt

[Career Prole]

15. So spaketh the lying murderer who claims God works for him...

...and him alone.

[WillParkinson]

17. Kettle? Pot called. Something about a color change....

This from Mr. "Jesus is my role model"....uh...yeah.

[Lars39]

19. Remember his SOTU, where he was making apocolyptic references?

Something about a lamb...

[leesa]

20. That's rich! Bush, the biggest exploiter of Gawd that ever existed.

[Kahuna]

23. Well boo freakin hoo. Kerry beat bush to pulling out the Jesus card..

and they cry foul. I love it! :puke:

[Democat]

25. Abraham Lincoln should never have been president either, he quoted it too!

"A house divided against itself cannot stand." (Matthew 12:25)
- Abraham Lincoln (1858)

Lincoln and Kerry are not fit to be president, they both quoted the bible!

[Dr Fate]

26. Whoever would have thought Republicans were sensitive types...

So thin-skinned.

Are these the same guys who called Clinton & DEMS everything in the book for the past 12 years?

[nostamj]

27. nice touch John!!!

he is getting some good advise.

let the insipid chimp and his faux Xtians have their old testment 'god' of revenge and retribution.

the dems will be quite happy to reclaim the TEACHINGS of Jesus, from the twisted frauds who are only in the "Jesus Bizzness"

[aquart]

43. EXCUSE ME?

Are you claiming, what, exactly? That Democrats are Christians? That the Old Testament, the Jewish Bible, is........what, precisely, in your learned opinion?

Be sure to quote appropriate text.

[nostamj]

45. oh relax

i'm comparing the leviticus of the OT to the 'Sermon of the Mount' of the new. NOT jews v. christians. i don't believe in ANY organized religion.

jesus was a great jewish prophet. i like a lot of what he had to say. i despise the business that has risen around his (manipulated) memory.

[mzmolly]

87. What we have to keep in mind here is that The Torah is viewed

quite differently then the Old Testament. *cough* at least to my understanding... ;)

Rabbi's have a different view of the scripture than our RW fundie friends do. And, frankly I think the Rabbi's have a bit more knowlege in this area. ;)

You raised a good point however.

[BabsSong]

29. Well at least Kerry didn't claim to be on a mission from God like

some people who should be in a padded cell claim??---maybe they should call up George and ask the Second Son of God to clarify things for them. Fucking dangerous freaks.

[mouse7]

66. What's wrong with missions from God?

'It's 106 miles to Chicago, we've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses... Hit it!'

[burrowowl]

30. Some Protestant sects

do not include St. James and one of the Middle Ages/Renaissance arguments was about faith and good works.
However, St. Paul still in all Protestant Bibles, said: if I have faith but not charity, I am but a tinkling cymble... and faith and hope shall pass away, but charity shall remain forever....
BTW: Jesus did lots of good works and the only people he really got good and pissed off by were the Wall Street equivalent of the day, especially their being in the temple.

[Roaming]

91. The Bible also has a statement about "those who do not work

should not eat." I don't think that means we should do away with welfare.

Furthermore, what if there is a Republican atheist in the administration? Does this quote John Kerry made apply to them?

I think it's silly to start a Bible-quote exchange and I'm glad that Bush didn't respond in kind with another quote. Stick to the issues, everybody.

[Classical_Liberal]

108. Excuse me? Bush claimed God told him to invade Iraq

Kerry should quote the bible from now until that religious fanatic leaves office.

[Trajan]

32. Faith Based Politics ....

Invented by the GOP ....

[aquart]

34. It isn't even possible to satirize this. It IS satire.

Ye gods. Does George think he is without sin that he casts so many stones?

He's free to quote scripture himself, of course. If he knows any. Maybe Rove knows some.

[uhhuh]

35. Breaking News

March 29,2004

White House, Washington, D.C.

White House Press Secretary Scott Mc Clellan issued a statement today condemning what he called,"the obvious partisan attack against the Bush administration" from Jesus Christ.

" It is unfair, and deeply troubling, that in the midst of this political season, the Lord chooses bring up old news and present it as if it relevant in these times. "
McClellan went on to say that in the war on terror, Jesus is obviously suffering from a "lack of perspective", and should have thought more carefully before speaking 2000 years ago.
"Remember, 9/11 changed everything." He continued. "This administration has no intention of sinking to Christ's level."

Jesus Christ was not available for comment.

[gottaB]

69. uhhuh

:yourock:

[aquart]

36. Proverbs 6:16-19

There are six things which the Lord hates, seven which are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and a man who sows discord among brothers.

[belle]

51. Seven: a whiny little bitch. Oh, wait.

[Sugarbleus]

61. Excellent Aquart....and belle........HILARIOUS lol lol lol n/t

[dawn]

37. Wow, what whiners.

Hehehe.

Seriously, this is really good. Thanks for the laugh! What f'in hypocrites. They think they own the Bible. :puke:

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

38. That passage is one of my favorite scriptures.

It's one I always quote to fundamentalists like G DUHbya. I'm not surprised he takes exception to it.

Fundamentalists like Bush believe all one has to do is accept Jesus Christ as their savior and they are saved. In a society so prone to instant gratification it's hardly surprising a religion that promises instant salvation is so popular.

[mouse7]

67. Fundy Christians forget forgiveness requires true repentance

You have to not only recognize and be sorry about committing sin, but you have to actively try to change your behavior and take real action to not continue to commit the same sins.

You can't whisper "Sorry 'bout that" on Tuesday morning and then intentionally do the exact same thing Tuesday afternoon. It doesn't work that way.

[aquart]

39. Proverbs 6:12-15

A worthless person, a wicked man, goes about with crooked speech, winks with his eyes, scrapest with his feet, points with his finger, with perverted heart devises evil, continually sowing discord; therefore calamity will come upon him suddenly; in a moment he will be broken beyond healing.

I swear, I just opened the Bible and there it was.

[uhhuh]

41. Proverbs works real good here Proverbs 1:10-16

10. My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.
11. If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause:
12. Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:
13. We shall find all precious substance, we shall fill our houses with spoil:
14. Cast in thy lot among us; let us all have one purse:
15. My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path:
16. For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood.

[aquart]

44. Proverbs is good stuff.

Old Testament book, I believe.

[uhhuh]

46. Yeah

But I don't think it's in the KJV(PNAC) that the chimp uses.

[74dodgedart]

80. Matthew 5:9 - "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be......

Matthew 5:9 - "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

[Oreegone]

83. Hey what a great idea how about?

A bumpersticker with a big peace sign and this quotation:

That would drive the neocons over the edge....hey anybody go ahead use it. I will buy one.

Matthew 5.9 - "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

[Soup Bean]

40. Whoops. My brain just leaked out my ears before my head exploded.

I just KNEW that was going to happen when Bush became President. I just didn't know that it would take so long.

The President "appointed by God" accuses Kerry of "using religion" for political gain. BRAVO!

[kentuck]

42. Well, perhaps they would like to explain what it means ???

i would love to hear their interpretation... :)

[seasat]

47. I love Kerry's selection of scripture.

People trust us more on the economy, we've weakened (along with help from people like Clarke) his polling on National security, and now we're taking the religious angle from him. I have another quote for Republicans.

"What benefits a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?"

[Trillo]

48. If one is a Christian. . . .

2 Corinthians 9:7 -- "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."

The phrase "not grudgingly, or of necessity" would rule out the government using our tax dollars for federal grants to religious charities, since taxes are obligations of citizens under federal law.

Me thinks Bush destroyed the Separation of Church and State, and did it in a way even his own faith warns against.

[belle]

50. *thunk*

Okay, at this point we're so officially far down the rabbit hole that we're* sure* to emerge on the other side any day now.

anyway, i think Kerry is very smart to throw Scripture at these dorks, and wish more Democrats/liberals would do likewise. perhaps one day their heads will simply explode.

[Sugarbleus]

62. I have taken to writing to conservative xtian groups 'reminding' them

of just these very biblical examples, and more, presented here.

I am ECSTATIC we are bringing it up now... As a former fundie but still a believer, I've been doing my part to "remind" those freaks where they went off the rails. It's been an experience...wowzers

I go into their websites and write emails to them, I have bumper stickers on my vehicle with: Jesusnorepublican and LiberalslikeChrist website directives. I have felt these wacko rw christian types in league with Bushco were a very dangerous bunch a long time ago.

Glad Kerry did what he did...it's one extremely poignant way to fight back at the Bushco/neocon/fundie establishment.

[54anickel]

71. That's great Sugarbleus!! Keep up the good work. I am in the same

state of mind, former "fundie", still a believer. I also send scripture notes off to Shrub occassionally. Just cite the chapter and verse, not the actual text.
At first I didn't give it much thought. Then when I gave it some serious thought, it was like, whoa, some SS guy probably has to look these up to see if they are a hidden threat.
Oh well, I don't plan on doing anymore flying anyway. :evilgrin:

[Sugarbleus]

99. Right On 54!!

Since this current state of affairs is soooooooo aggregious and dangerous, I felt like I could make my contributions in an arena I know something about.

IMO,Everyone has a task special to their talent and interest in defeating this current Madman (bushco=antichrist), mine is to go after the RW Christians who subscribe to Bushco Politics. There are links to ALL the various rwxtian orgs that support this admin and it's current agenda, not to mention their own twisted agendas. I'll need to buy MORE INK for my printer. ;)

LOL, BuzzFlash displayed a link to the "White House Prayer Page" awhile back..I don't know what the intent was, but I "added my Prayer" to their page.........
Never got a reply. :evilgrin: Now, I'm looking to send actual hardcopy snailmail to these different orgs. and whitehouse.

Keep up the good work 54 and "watch your back" (only partly kidding)

:thumbsup:
edit for typo

[54anickel]

100. HA! As Franken would say, "Kidding on the Square" Back atcha!

Keep up the good work as well.

[Occulus]

63. Yes!

They really, really hate it bad when people throw Scripture into their faces. As with so many things, they simply cannot take being on the receiving end of what they continually dish out.

These types blow a fuse when dealing with such things. Often they walk away, muttering.

[koopie57]

52. What is so funny

to me is that Kerry is going along with his life, went on vacation, attended mass ..... and he is driving this present administration nuts with hardly any effort at all. It feels as though something has to break soon as the fear and anger is sending this administration out of control.

[Enraged_Ape]

72. Kerry is just using the naked truth against Bush, and he can't rebut it.

So the Republicans fume and fluster and rant furiously about it and thus call even MORE attention to what Kerry says!

It's a brilliant strategy, and as you have mentioned, it gives Kerry the ability to sort of hang back while the Republicans do all the hard work of campaigning against themselves.

[PartyPooper]

53. Well, I do think it's about time the U.S.A. has an official Bible Czar!

Who can the dems recruit to counter the evil deeds of Junior and the far right? Hmmm.

:evilgrin:

[diamond14]

54. stupid reTHUGlicans...by bringing this to the Nation's attention

they ADVERTISED that

1. shrub is a real pig, with NO ACTS OF COMPASSION....

2. Kerry is a deeply religious man, who actually READS the bible...

thanks to incredibly stupid reTHUGlicans, they have helped spread the GOOD WORD on Kerry, all over America....

[FrankBooth]

55. Shrub should have "exploitation of Scripture"

tatooed on his fucking forehead.

[truthisfreedom]

57. bushco loves to use phrases which refer specifically to their own actions

how many times have they talked about "revision of history" or "rewriting of history" in reference to others who are calling them on that very act?

now they want to use the phrase "beyond the bounds of acceptable discourse" the very same week they attempted an assassination on Clarke's character and "exploitation of Scripture" after all of the twisted things they've done in the name of God?

rove has a rule: no matter what bushco is guilty of, accuse the other guy OF THE VERY SAME THING first, the moment the subject begins to become public. that way, it will sound like whoever is against bushco is just saying "no, you are!"

[Sugarbleus]

58. WAY TO GO JOHN!!! Woohoooooooooo beat em at their

own game. Excellent :bounce:

[DeepModem Mom]

64. Have only called the White House twice...

(assume it does little good, kind of like calling Fox News), but I'm calling today on this. As someone said upthread, do they own the Bible now? Incidentally, both times I've called, I've been answered by extremely nice women, probably non-political, civil servants, who have listened and sympathized with my view. Both calls were more or less non-political: I objected to Bush's frequent use of the term "my government," saying we fought a Revolution on that issue (he's used "my administration" since, thank you), and I called during the looting of the museum in Baghdad, begging that troops be sent to protect it (they were finally sent, too late).

[Jane Eyre]

65. Age old debate - James vs. Paul

Interestingly, this cuts to a debate in the early church which continues today. James, who is believed to have been an actual compatriot of Jesus and perhaps even his brother, taught his followers that one must live their Christian faith daily through their works. Paul claimed to have received somewhat different marching orders through his vision on the road to Damascus. To Paul's followers, only belief in Jesus Christ as Savior would buy the ticket to heaven. Works were OK, but took a backseat to simple faith.

The debate continues today. The Bush Christians are pushing a faith where one must be saved in order to enter heaven. They believe that even such heroic figures as Gandhi are burning in hell because they did not believe in Jesus. Liberal Christians believe that professing faith is not enough, that true faith shows itself through the life and works of the believer. As to what happens to people of other faiths who have lived good lives, the official answer is that it is up to God and we cannot know that.

In my opinion, the apostle Paul did a lot to mess up a perfectly good thing by introducing his own theological beliefs into the mix. He sought to appeal to the masses, the Gentiles, by emphasizing the death and resurrection of Jesus instead of the life of Jesus. Blood sacrifice was something that the largely pagan population could understand more easily than Jesus' teachings about how to live.

The Bushies remind me of the Pharisees who attacked Jesus for his interpretation of the Scriptures. For example, when Jesus was rebuked for eating grapes from a vineyard on a Sabbath which was against the strict interpretation of Jewish law, he replied "the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath."

[cap]

68. Kerry uses Catholic code talk

you must do good deeds to be saved. Fundamentalists like bush say you must accept Christ to be saved.

[Classical_Liberal]

110. Then they aren't fundamentalist because they are ignoring the bible

. Has nothing to do with Catholicism or Baptists. MLK used to quote that part of James all the time, and he was a Baptist. It is really the religious right vs traditional christianity.

[Merlin]

78. JFK (THE JFK) invoked biblical phrazes often.

I remember especially him challenging us to heed the words of Isaiah: "Be strong and of good courage. Be not afraid. Neither be ye dismayed."

Those words could be particularly relevant now, in contrast with the Bush mantra: "Be afraid. Be very afraid."

[Classical_Liberal]

109. If one believes that faith is proved by works, then their is no

conflict between James and Paul. Paul says man enters heaven by faith alone. James says faith is proved by works. That is what I learned anyway. It what the honest fundies believe. Most of the religious right do gloss over or ignore James though.

[truthspeaker]

70. pot, meet kettle

[notadmblnd]

73. If the shoe fits Cinderfella

By all means, wear it!

[Malva Zebrina]

74. I would hate to see this campaign turn into another pulpit

I would hope that Kerry will steer clear of it. It was absolutely disgusting in the last presidential election. Disgusting the way ALL the candidates, (Bradly excepted) went about preaching and bragging and making sure the religion thing was in their platform. I understand why this was done--becasue of the right wing religious groups that were fully behind Bush and Bush' blatant piety. It was just so disgusting to watch--indeed,imo they were all "whackos" when it came to religion during that election.

I would hate to see it happen again and hope Kerry does not fall into the religion trap.

Yes, it is the age old argument--works or saved without works--and many attending divinity school love to argue that point back and forth. It is the same as "sprinkle" or "emerged" argument when it comes to baptism.

Paul is especially loved and quoted by many literalist fundamentalists, who, actually, I do not think of as "whackos"--they follow a faith that requires evangelizing and literal interpretation of the bible. That is their sincere belief. We see few of them on DU, ergo the frequent , bigoted references to them as fundie "whackos" I have come to the conclusion that they must all be Republicans since few are here to defend themselves.

[undergroundpanther]

93. Evangel

Evangelists can get pushy and refuse to leave people who have already heard their"good news" alone.

If some salesmen were as insistent,rude,desperate or manipulative as some evangelists you'd see a movement arise to stop them.

I don't care if evangelists think they are commanded to convert the earth to their brand of belief,They need to NOT be RUDE.Back when that was written in the bible,most of the earth was UNKNOWN and likewise the inhabitants,there wasn't mass transportation,TV and the Internet for Christians to occupy and spout off the same old story again and again.There wasn't a past yet of aggressive war missionaries and crusades yet forcing"the good book"and genocide upon tribal peoples.

Christianity has NOT changed evil human 'nature' at all.Jesus in the heart has not stopped Bush from an illegal war, it hasn't stopped fundies from hating innocent people, it hasn't stopped Christians from abusing others .A few good works the church does is not enough to justify the wealth and power it hoards..Christ has not changed anyone despite all the Christians preaching about how good they are. With or without religion,they still don't know themselves enough to have a developed ethical and sane inner locus of control.
Christians will have to answer to humanity eventually for their silent support of Christian fundamentalism among their church brothers. They'll have to answer to people who are hurt and angry about the damage fundamentalism and literalism does rationalizing authoritarian oppression that was kept in the bible when the bible was edited by imperial Rome.

Christians because they associate them self with Christ and the bible, are accountable to Christianity as a movement and must someday answer to themselves if not to humanity for their brothers in Christ doings.They'll have to explain why their religion is actively infiltrating local,national and global politics,trying to control popular culture while ignoring that Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world and that he rejected the devil's offer to rule all the kingdoms of this world if he'd just bow down to Satan.Who are these fundies who want to evangelize the world and infiltrate the republican party bowing down to? um...maybe..ahh.SAtan??!!
Why are Christians letting the fundies among them bow to Satan so the church can rule this country? The church HAS already dominated the known historical world before and it has created horror and genocide when it has had control of governments.

The Church is worshiping Satan and it seeks to rule the world..

What does change a person's heart? Domination doesn't.It just creates an appearance of change.

Developing your own character yourself and choosing to NOT act like a bully or an exploiter in life is a choice that changes you.Having a sense of empathy and not being a bystander when others get shafted.Having an inner locus of control and taking freedom responsibly aware that everything is interdependent and what you say or do does impact others.

Native Americans without Jesus understood this fact of our human condition far better than fundies or America in general.They had their faults,stupidities and idiot taboos.And they didn't evangelize.

The church has betrayed the spirit of wisdom and liberation to the whims of oppressors for 2,000 years,because the church is so compromised with evil,power hungry and unrealistic about other people and so dishonest about itself and so in denial about the dark parts of the character of it's God as he's depicted in the Bible..that sanity flees from all who enter the Church.
Christians might as well stop laying straw men and bible quotes before critics,and listen to them for once. They can't keep on silencing or denying the damning testimony of all the people who have been hurt by Christians,organized religion ,struggling with insane biblical lifestyle demands or the restrictions of bygone days other inhuman holy texts impose that go against reality in a way that hurts people.

I look forward to a time when Christians finally wise up to the perils of abuses of trust, authority and obedience.When they are good people ,all by themselves and have the courage to disobey,and throw away all the bad fruits Kings and rulers of oppressive empires keep alive in that bible and finally it is My hope, they really might know God.

[Malva Zebrina]

101. whew--what a great rant--and I hope you feel better now.

and I agree with almost everything you said.

But, we do have the freedom of religion thingy here in this country--and that means we must tolerate all sorts of religions who choose to exercise that right.

I object to the hypocrisy of posters on DU who adhere to the "bigotry" rule, but see nothing wrong with consistently calling those who are fundamentalists, "fundies" and "whackos"

Every fundamentalist is not a door knocking evangelist. Some are simple believers in the "fundamentals" five precepts that they believe is the basis of their religion. Many are not "whackos" at all, but as sincere believers as those of Catholicism--except there are many here on DU who are Catholics who will rise to defend the slightest bit of criticism, while the "whackos" can be systematically bashed in a concerted bigotry, because there are none here to defend themselves.

I only speak out against the hypocrisy because it is inconsistent.

[Classical_Liberal]

111. Sorry, Bush's image as a good christian must be debunked

If Bush uses christ in a false manner we must point this out at every opportunity. Go Kerry! Keep up the Bible quotes from the "Social Gospel"

[Malva Zebrina]

112. I suppose--but realy it is just a matter of a difference in interpretation

for every quote in the bible, there can be found an opposite.

I'm on your side--Bush must go and I veiw his use of religion as a fascist ploy--but the religion part has to be fought by those who are actually very much schooled in it--other Christians with a pulpit, not just irate other Christians who do not like Bush.

I see little of that coming from clergy. Almost all, though, did object to the invasion of Iraq as an unjustified war and invasionl

\No one paid any attention to them. If the country is considered to be 80% Christian and 50% or more approved of the invasion--err well it looks like a lot of Christians were not listening to their spiritual leaders and following Bush as the spiritual leader.


I just find it tedious to have it become a part of a campaign and each candidate trying to outdo the other in piety. It should not be a prevalent issue in a presidential campaign.

I hope it does not go further than this, and Bush is now going to think twice about spouting off his biblical code words. I hope it is now a moot issue, since Kerry has shown he can outdo Bush on this.

[Classical_Liberal]

113. Kerry's got Bush stumped. Caring for the poor is in the final judgement

where Jesus seperates the sheep from the goats.! I want to see Bush's buttkicked on this. You can't break down an image of Bush as a good christian that has been built up over 10 yrs with one incident. He should keep firing. Let them bitch and moan. I love it. Keep it up. As liberals we really do have an interests in seeing a move away from religious right churches and toward social gospel churches. The religious right are loons and dangerous. Fundamentalism is besides the point. A fundamentalist should believe in Paul and James, since they claim to believe in the literal truth of WHOLE the bible.

[AJ BENDER]

76. What Hypocrites of Monumental Proportions

Given the way the the repukes have wrapped themselves around the Bible to basically condemn anyone who ever lived who is not like them - it is truly incredible that I am reading a news item such as this.
I suppose it's part of the plan - hit back when hit - and any attack by the Kerry camp must be responded to no matter how hypocritical, lame, or stupid it may seem.


Keep digging your own grave Bushies... only six more months to go !

[tom_paine]

81. My God, how these Bushevik Monsters project!

These Monsters have been exploiting Scripture, as well as the non-inquisitive and faith-based nature of the Taliban/Fundamentalist mindset EVERY SINGLE DAY.

So, naturally, it's what the Imperials accuse their enemies are doing.

Like Hitler accusing the Jews of brutalizing Germans.

EXACTLY like that. Not a hair's breadth of difference in the semantics and the projection of victimhood to the aggressors so necessary in any Totalitarian Society like Imperial Amerika.

[Zynx]

82. Hypocrisy Alert! Hypocrisy Alert! Color Level Red!

Republicans have shamlessly exploited religion for political purposes since Nixon and much moreso since Reagan. Kerry's giving them what they deserve.

[mzmolly]

89. Eggzactly! Ya just gotta love it!!!

:)

[mzmolly]

84. F ** K this is GREAT! Dean used the same technique. These guys

gotta be talkin folks! :toast:

GO KERRY!!!

[goclark]

90. Keep On Quoting The Good Book Kerry

Another smart tactic IMO by Kerry.
First of all, GWB doesn't read anything,much less the Bible.
The Bible is far too much of a challenge for the Chimp. The Bible has a Readability Level way above 1st grade!

My take has always been that the chimp is not Born Again! He was not even BORN in the ways of Christian beliefs. He is an insult to my religion.

Kerry's remarks were extremely appropriate and used in the correct setting.

I believe this is extremely scary for ChimpCo because this cuts to the heart of their base!

I certainly don't speak for all African Americans but I believe that Kerry's remarks would have been well received in just about any Black church.I am qualifying that because there are Black Churches that have been bought and paid for by Republicans.

IF Kerry can sincerely show Christians that he is "as much of a Christian" as the Chimp that is a good thing! The Democrats certainly have more Christian values on one hand then the Republicans have on all the fingers and their toes.

[Felix Mala]

92. So what?

Whenever the President opens his mouth, is it not exploitation of the English language, mangling proper speech for political gain?

[Selwynn]

95. This is how I explained being against Bush to my parents...

My parents used to be Republican before it was totally co-opted by the radical right. Now they are Independent.

I explained to my parents, formerly in Christian ministry, in the following way:

When Bush was appointed president by the supreme court, I was one who more graciously accepted the decision. I had made up my mind that whatever the supreme court decided I would accept. Part of the reason I did this was because I felt that even if Bush was elected, he would be a moderate and govern from the center, with a sense of appreciation to the fact that the country was so divided.

I believed Bush when he spoke of "compassionate conservatism" and I believed everyone else when they spoke of Bush's professed Christianity. When Bush said "I'm a uniter and not a divider" and that he would work with both Democrats and Republicans and bring a new spirit of bipartisan cooperation to Washington, I thought maybe it might be true. I thought that Bush might be a man that I could disagree with on matters of policy but still respect as a man of integrity.

But then Bush took office.

The Christian Scripture says, "By there fruits, you will know them." When Bush took office I expected to see the fruits of the spirit from a man who said all the things he said and professed all the things he professed. And instead, I've seen nothing but the exact opposite of "fruit." I've seen arrogance, manipulation, exploiation, outright lying, abuse of power, manipulation of evidence, and a clandestine attempt to strip more and more rights away from average Americans and consolidate more and more illicit power at the top.

I believe that Bush has done nothing but reflect the exact opposite of every Christian principle there is. And that to me would be reason enough for any Christian person to think seriously about voting for someone else. Even a non-professing candidate may still commit to Christian values more honestly than Bush. The irony would be if a non-Christian person ended up demonstrating greater compassion, more concern for the poor, greater patience, a clearer desire for peace, an attitude of gentleness, self-control and humility, and policies of kindness and decency far more frequently than Bush ever has.

[Merlin]

98. Good for you Selwyn. My Mother-In-Law travelled a similar path.

She's been a lifelong R. Never voted for a Democrat. Thinks Democrats are evil slouchers (then she met me; now she's sure of it :-)).

However, even before the Iraq war, she said to me she had decided that Bush and his bunch were bums. She did so because of their inhumane viciousness. She especially remembered Bush's attitudes toward the condemned prisoners in Texas. Even though she agrees with capital punishment, his vengeful, ridiculing approach to the condemned was sickening and very telling.

[ashling]

96. Poor babies ...

They can throw scripture around all they want, but when its quoted to them.
Hypocrites and pharisees!

[CBHagman]

102. If the Bush camp actually read the book of James...

...they would, at the very least, squirm at what it says about favoring the rich over the poor. That second chapter of James is a DOOZY in terms of coming down hard on those who flatter themselves that they are keeping the law, yet break key points of it. And it has special words for those who think they are keeping the commandment "Love your neighbor as yourelf" (one of Bush's big, big favorites; he quotes it pretty much at every campaign event) but show favoritism towards the rich and condescension towards the poor.

Considering the fact that the Bush administration wants to cut home heating programs, literacy programs, and the like, but favors the elimination of the inheritance tax (so Paris Hilton can devote ever more of her life to idleness, I suppose), one can tell pretty easily where their priorities lie...

[BonjourUSA]

103. And when Bush says to be in direct-line with God....

That is not a kind of extreme "exploitation of Scripture" ?

[Classical_Liberal]

106. Must of hurt. Keep it up Kerry!

The religious right can dish it out but they can't take it. The best thing we can do is expose W for how unchristian he really is. He is running as a Christian you know.

[Nancy Waterman]

107. I thought it was a beautiful speech

The bushies think they own the Bible. And they are trying desperately to get Kerry on the defensive. Clarke has thrown them off their political assasination schedule.


Here is the link for the actual speech:

http://blog.johnkerry.com/blog/archives/001461.html#001461

[scarface2004]

114. bible?! i dont need no stinking bible!!

no bible here...as bush looked up his ass!!

[bvar22]

115. Sam Jackson in Pulp Fiction...

...used this one from Ezekiel 25:17

The Path of the righteous man is beset on all sides,
by the inequities of the selfish,
and the tyranny of evil men.
Blessed are those,
who in the name of charity and justice,
shepard the weak,
through the valley of darkness.
For he is truly his brother's keeper,
and the finder of lost children.
And I will strike down upon thee with
great vengeance and furious anger,
those, who attempt to poison and destroy
my brothers!
And you will know, my name is the lord,
when I lay my vengeance upon thee!


The republicans are going to feel great vengeance and furious anger in Nov '04.


edited to add:
James 5:1-6 - "Watch out, you rich people, weep and wail for the miseries that are coming to you. Your wealth is corrupted and your money is debased, and they will be used as evidence against you. You have hoarded wealth and laid up treasures for the last days. Listen! The wages of the workers which you stole, and kept back by fraud, cry out, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered the righteous one, who does not resist you."

[opihimoimoi]

116. Those Pub Con Guys use the "Rope A Sheep" thingy all the time

Look at TV and how many channels they on.

Even Bush sez he talks with god.... WTH is that>??? Everytime God talks to these guys, bad shit happens.

Come, we go Pali, feel the WIND