Senator Schumer: H-1B use undercuts pay, discourages tech enrollments

[Newsjock]

Source: Computerworld

Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) says that the H-1B program has created "multinational temp agencies" that undercut U.S. wages and discourage students from entering tech fields.

Schumer, speaking on the Senate floor in advance of its approval Thursday of $600 million for border security that includes an H-1B visa fee increase, said the H-1B program has morphed into program used to hire foreign tech workers "willing to accept less pay than their American counterparts."

... The impact of the low-wage workers is also "discouraging many of our smartest students from entering the technology industry in the first place," said Schumer. "Students can see that paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for advanced schooling is not worth the cost when the market is being flooded with foreign temporary workers willing do to tech work for far less pay."

Schumer heads the Senate's Immigration, Refugees and Border Security Committee, and is spearheading work on a comprehensive immigration bill. A bill isn't expected until early next year, after the November election, but Schumer warned on Thursday that H-1B visa was "likely to be dramatically restricted" in the bill.

Read more: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9180646/Senator_Schumer_H_1B_use_undercuts_pay_discourages_tech_enrollments

[pnwmom]

1. I wish I could give this 1000 recs. This is partly why many of our best math students

don't go into engineering, but into finance instead.

[FreakinDJ]

12. At last - some one who "gets it"

[pnwmom]

15. I know a PHD student in engineering at MIT

who's thinking about going into finance. I've heard plenty about this issue. Why go into a field with such an uncertain future? Companies that hire engineers love to replace the ones with 10 years of experience with newly minted PhD's -- and they don't care what country they come from.

[LibDemAlways]

20. The only refuge for American engineers is the

defense industry where most jobs require American citizenship and some require various security clearances. Many engineers would much prefer to work in non defense related jobs, but commercial companies like Cisco Systems and Qualcomm have become H1-B central. And you're right about older engineers being let go. My husband was laid off in January and had a hell of a time even getting an interview. Finally he found a job through a former co-worker - at a 40% pay cut. Something else the media isn't talking about - the way companies are taking advantage of the crappy economy by hiring desperate people at salaries that are downright insulting.

[pnwmom]

21. I know another young graduate from a good school with a degree in Mech. E.

He pushed himself to graduate early, so got a couple of offers and started work a year ago in January. A few months later, they laid off the whole division, 200 people. Since then he's sent out tons of resumes all across the country and has only gotten one serious bite. It's still a possibility so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

(He's even applied for internship programs, but he's been unemployed too long -- turns out they're only for freshly minted graduates, not for people who lost their first jobs after a few months.)

[LibDemAlways]

27. I wish your friend well. If the thousands of people who are here on

H1-B Visas had them revoked and were sent packing, the job market would loosen up somewhat for tech-savvy Americans who are out of work. It's a crime that our government is more concerned with catering to corporate profiteers than protecting American jobs.

[dotymed]

41. Years ago,

when I was in the Bahamas, they had a common sense law. You could not work there unless you could prove that their were no native Bahamians who could do the same job. I know because I wanted to stay permanently. That was after the introduction of REAGONOMICS to America. I was a college student....

[LibDemAlways]

57. Many countries have laws in place to protect their

citizens' jobs, as well they should.

Theoretically, companies are not supposed to hire H1-B visa holders unless they first look for qualified Americans. However, there is a boatload of abuse. All most companies care about is the bottom line and hiring the cheapest talent possible. When my husband was out of work he attended a technical job fair in San Jose. He was astonished to see busloads of H1-B applicants pull up looking for their next gig - and a bunch of companies more than happy to talk to them. As a 59 year old US citizen he had two strikes against him - too old and too expensive. It truly is hell out there, and the practice of hiring foreign workers for US jobs only makes it worse.

[DailyGrind51]

63. Germany expels foreign workers when the unemployment rate for German citizens grows.

[aggiesal]

I've been saying that for years ...

as our unemployment rate rises, H-1B's should be restricted.

[primavera]

144. Germany supports education of their citizens

We, unhappily, don't.

[whathehell]

71. Did you know we actually "have" that law, too?...It's part of the H1-B law

It states, essentially, that the H1-B Visa "can only be used when an American cannot be found"..and the initial idea was to find people for rare, very specialized jobs in physics, medicine, etc.

Way back in the Clinton Administration, Robert Reich, then Sec ty of Labor, called it "Fraught with Abuse"...It's "rubber stamped", he said and the authors of this excellent book on the whole matter "America: Who Stole The Dream"?

I learned most of what I know about H1-B visas from a book, written by two pulitzer prize winning journalists, Barlett and Steele. It's a book that was serialized in The Philadelphia Inquirer back around '95 and it raised a storm of indignation...So much so that the local NPR station regularly used excerpts of it for Pledge Week.

These guys layed it out: The law states that the H1-B Visa can only be used "if no American can be found for the job"....They then went on to illustrate the flagrant abuse by providing a list of jobs for which foreigners had recently been hired.

Preceded by the question: "Do you know any Americans who can't do this job?, they listed scores of jobs like:

Pixza Maker...Plumber...Nurses Aide...Mechanic, etc...a huge list of low skill, ordinary jobs Americans do regularly.

I'm not a techie, but this issue REALLY opened my eyes as to what's happening in this country, the extent to which we've been "sold out".

If Schumer is for real here, it's a VERY welcome development.

[LibDemAlways]

80. Take a look at this You Tube video. These

US lawyers are running seminars to explain to employers how to circumvent the laws requiring that they hire Americans first. The speaker is very upfront about what he's doing - making it possible for employers to hire cheap foreign labor at the expense of Americans.

This is truly an outrage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

[whathehell]

112. I have seen that and it IS an outrage...Does.anyone know how to

make that video go "viral", at least in certain political circles so as to bring it further into the open?

We need to make political hay out of these things.

[superconnected]

104. In the US they have to post the job to Amercians only if over 15% ot

the companies work force is H1B. That's a new law that might not be in effect yet. The European Union require the job not to be able to be filled by a European at all before an H1-B visa can take it.

[superconnected]

103. It would loosen up massively for the tech industry.

I've been surrounded by H1-Bs and almost no Americans for years now at several large tech companies I've worked at.

[EnviroBat]

113. I've interviewed many H1-B's in my various positions in IT

The resumes always look stellar compared to their actual abilities. It's amazing how much "padding" goes on...

[LibDemAlways]

127. My husband has interviewed several H1-B people. One of the

first questions he poses is a fairly simple software-related problem that any decent coder should be able to respond to in his sleep. The usual response he gets is a blank stare.

[jmowreader]

136. I don't think that would happen. Do you?

The only place you'd really see an increase in American employment caused by getting ready of H1Bs would be medicine, and that's only because it's too expensive to fly to India or Pakistan every time you need to go to the doctor. If you can't bring Indian engineers to the US to have them engineer here, nothing would stop these multinational corporations from setting up their engineering shops in India.

And that, my friends, is something I don't know how to fix. My company has a satellite-based WAN and we are in the hospitality and newspaper businesses; there is no reason at all why a company in the electronics engineering business can't do the same thing.

[exboyfil]

32. If he doesn't have a family

I would strongly recommend he look at getting an assistantship to work on his M.S. Also try sending a resume to a large tractor company in the Midwest. I know they are always on the look out for M.E. talent.

When I was in the same situation in the 1980s I had pretty good luck with a headhunting firm, but you have to approach that with some care.

[pnwmom]

133. Thanks for the advice.

My husband also thought he should look towards getting an MS, and I believe the young man recently took his GRE's. Interesting, though, about the tractor company idea. He's actually living in Ohio now with his parents, so the midwest would be a good location.

[apnu]

78. It is, for that reason alone, I work for small companies.

And when they are bought or grow too big, I leave. And I will never, ever, work for a publicly traded company.

[patrice]

68. Can I haz dancin' 'nana? Pleez?

I have been missing that little guy. He makes me laugh.

:loveya: :loveya:

[happygoluckytoyou]

84. CLASS WARFARE ---- AS USUAL ---- CHEAP LABOR --- GO GO GOP

[brentspeak]

2. Schumer has been getting much better as a senator, in the past couple of years

Less of a corporate politician than he used to be. A welcome improvement.

[armodem08]

22. Not so much, according to Taibbi's latest...

But that was before the senator from Wall Street showed up. In the final hours of negotiations, a congressional delegation from New York, led by Sen. Chuck Schumer, decided to take one last run at gutting the Volcker rule. It was as though someone had sent the scrubs off the court and called in the varsity. Schumer, a platitudinous champion of liberal social issues, moonlights as a pillbox-hat bellhop to Wall Street on economic matters. The self- aggrandizing New Yorker has not only fought to keep taxes low on hedge-fund billionaires, he got up onstage with Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein at a Democratic fundraiser in 2006 and performed "nostalgic furniture-store jingles."


http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/17390/188551?RS_show_page=3


To be clear, I'm not denigrating his public actions here. It's just that what happens behind the scenes is far more consequential.

[disndat]

87. A leopard does not change his spots.

Schumer is trying to keep a lower profile, a massive effort for him. He is totally guilty of the Wall Street meltdown, as much as Blankfein, Rubin, Greenspan, etc while making a lot of money for himself. His wife is carrying on in his stead. She rented for City College New York where she is associated, a suite of offices at the L.I.C. CityCorps bldg. for top price when even the old Goldman Sachs bldg on Wall St. rented for a lot less. The Schumers are total Yucks!

[chimpymustgo]

88. Haven't we figured out the MO? Talk tough, promise big, then quietly service the corporate masters.

Obama wrote the book. Shumer's just taking a page. Especially for a bill to be voted on AFTER November. HA!

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jeff47]

110. He's got a bit of a tightrope to walk

"But, after all, he is a senator from New York - the home of Wall Street. This has to be expected."

The tightrope he has to walk is to aid Wall Street, since that's obviously a big deal for a Senator from NY. But Upstate NY is rapidly falling into Detroit-like decay. So he kind of has two constituencies with radially different problems.

So you're going to hear some things such as this H1B statement that are meant to help the "common man". But he's also got Wall Street's back.

[disndat]

135. good point -and he and his wife

are making $$$$ of dollars serving his Wall Street constituency. Keep a watch his partner-in-crime, Kirsten Gillibrand who stated that she was against regulations on Wall Street because it would mean loss of jobs for her Wall Street constituency while her husband, a stockbroker making $$$ on insider trading with info he gets from Kirsten.

[The Backlash Cometh]

3. Now there's a brilliant man.

[OHdem10]

4. I am glad he is beginning to listen and act.on theseH-1B Visa.

[DesertFlower]

5. K&R. enough already with the H1B visas.

those jobs should be filled by americans.

[OhioChick]

6. K&R n/t

[ChromeFoundry]

7. Finally! K&R n/t

[The_Casual_Observer]

8. This is great news for a change.

[Hello_Kitty]

9. What a XENOPHOBE!!1!

:sarcasm:

[ibegurpard]

10. Wanna put your money where your mouth is Obama?

Use your bully pulpit to get behind this.
I won't hold my breath.

[Newsjock]

11. I hate to throw cold water on my own OP

But American companies already know that the changes are coming, and they've already prepared. The new hot trend is just sending the jobs directly to Bangalore or elsewhere, not even bothering to import anyone into the U.S. to do the work. No H-1Bs are needed for that.

What this will do, however, is put a muzzle on the chop body shops, and that's still a good thing. But if we think most of our IT and tech jobs are coming back to Americans any time soon, I fear we're sorely mistaken.

[pnwmom]

16. The start-ups will hire locally, unless we make it extra easy and profitable

to hire people with green cards.

[closeupready]

36. And since small businesses are the ones where jobs are created traditionally, that's exactly

what we want. I see no downside.

[happyslug]

45. Electronics are no longer in a "Boom" Cycle, so much fewer starts ups

When I was in collage I was taught a theory, based on review of history, of what some people call the Business life-cycle. First you have the "Boom" period, characteristics of a lot of start ups, for the key is NOT taking business from other in the same industry, but to expand the market. Television was in this stage in the 1950s, Automobiles in the 1920s. The key is expansion of the overall market is more important that market share. Thus you see a lot of innovation, lots of start ups (and failures) but an overall growth in the industry. Computers were in a "boom" period in the 1990s.

The "Boom" period is followed by the "Mature" period. Growth can continue, but most businesses expansion is at the expense of other competitors as opposed to overall market growth. As a rule you see a reduction in the number of players in the industry, often to three or fewer players (The Auto industry in the 1930s onward is an example of this). Any major growth of one player is often as the expense of another player (Television starting in the late 1960s and into the 1970s was this i.e. pre-cable in urban areas). The Key is stability and almost no one enters the market (Cable changed television from a market based on what you received via transmission to one to what you get on Cable, so the 1980s saw Television enter into a new "Boom" period but for cable as oppose to traditional antenna television).

Finally, you have the decline of an industry. The Characteristics of this is a reduction to one, maybe two players in the industry, mostly trying NOT to save the industry but to milk it all they can for maximum profit till its complete collapse. The Steel Industry in the 1980s is a good example of this. Mini-mills came in, but for specialized products, the old fashion huge mills that did everything just died out.

Notice the difference between the three stages, Electronics is now in a Mature Phase, NOT a boom phase and as such start ups are, and will be less and less of a factor in the over all electronics industry. Thus the key to employment is to be hired by one of the big boys, and they are going overseas big time AND are the biggest users of HIB workers.

Now, like most theories of how things work, it is intended to be a guideline more then a deadline (This the Television was in a Mature phase by the late 1960s, but with the introduction of cable in urban areas in the late 1970s it re-entered a boom phase). Things do NOT always go in a straight line, but it is a good guideline in most industry and since about 2000, electronics have been in a mature phase more then a boom phase of the business life cycle.

[Yavin4]

76. There Were Actually Two Tech "Booms"

There was the PC/Client/Server boom in the 1980s where we saw businesses switch over from typewriters on desks to PCs on desk connected by a LAN. This created a huge economic boom which Reagan got too much credit for.

The second boom was the Telcom boom in the 1990s which allowed users to exchange data through internet connections. A PCs could communicate to other PCs any where in the world as long as both had internet access. Clinton rode this boom to political success.

The tech booms ended in early 2000. The tech growth rate, once 25% or higher, is now aligned with mature industries as you point out. Outsourcing to currency de-valued nations and importing illegal laborers through H1B visa programs represent the last gasp of an industry looking to bring back that 25% growth rate, but it hasn't happened. Just look at a NASDAQ chart for the past ten years.

[happyslug]

109. If we want to get technical, you had at least four tech booms

The first was the 1950s, as computer first came into place, the Second was 1970s as mini-computers replaced the large computers of the 1950s. These mini-computers were so small even what the US Government calls "Small Business" (i.e NOT the top 1000 companies in earnings, but those just below that level) could afford them. This lead to the third boom, the first personal computers in the early 1980s (There was a good bit of overlap between these two booms, Desk top servers were the norm in the Mini-computer boom, while actual Personal computers were the norm in the Personal Computer boom).

While the Personal Computer had it start outside the corporate culture, its main competitor in the late 1970s and early 1980s was desk top servers, which were direct connection to a central computer. As electronics improved, the disk top server quickly became more and more like a PC. Finally by the mid 1980s the PC was being used both as Desk Top Servers AND PCs were being used as stand alone computers (Something the Desk Top Server of the 1970s could NOT do). At that point computers reached below what the US Calls "Small Business" and into the Mom and Pop Businesses that is what most people envision when they use the term "Small Business".

Notice the third trend (Desk Top Server and Minicomputers) tended to be replaced by PCs doing the same job, while at the same time PCs were spreading into other areas, including the home and school. This was mostly driven by the ease PCs could handle inventory, sales and word processing. The internet was very marginal at that point, mostly military and academic users. In many ways, during this period (late 1970s early 1990s) the move was to stand alone computers and away from networks. This did not last long, the net boom was on its way and that meant a massive increase in networks.

The fourth trend was the Internet boom, started under Bush I, but really boomed under Clinton. The boom lasted into Bush II's reign but then it matured and you had the internet bust. We are still seeing improvements in the net, just like we saw improvements in Television in the 1960s as it matured (Color Television is existed as early as the early 1950s, but the Networks did not go 100% color till 1965-67 and most Americans did NOT have a color Television till 1972, thus Color was introduced into Television AFTER the Television boom of the 1950s and matured into the Mature Market of the 1960s).

For more on Color Television see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_television#FCC_Color

I bring up Color Television for it shows an improvement in an industry during the mature time period in that industry life cycle. We have seen vast improvements since 2001 in the NET, but it is no longer the boom it was in the 1990s. It is a mature industry and slowly downsizing in number of providers (A characteristics of Mature part of the Industry Life cycle).

Now, there appears to be a fifth boom being pushed right now, the hand held computer. That industry is in its boom period, but may quickly enter a mature phase do to the fact most people may NOT see the need to use a handheld computer (As opposed to a small laptop). The keyboard and mouse is one of the quickest way for a person to interact with a computer. The hand held uses variation of the old Phone number/alphanumeric system. Not as good at interaction as a Keyboard, thus my question as to the extent of its boom.

Remember a boom can be very short, especially if the people who want something all already have it. The Classic case is the original LCD watches of the mid 1970s, I remember in High School, we all wanted one, they were cheap and accurate. You had to push a button to get the time, but it was the first "Digital" watch most of us ever saw. By the time I was a Senior in High School, that market had matured and was in rapid decline, replaced by LED watches that as common today.

Also a boom can last a very long time. High End Bicycles have been on a boom cycle since the early 1900s. Low end bicycle have been in a mature market for about as long, but high end bicycles, people will buy and the market has slowly increased since 1900 as people slowly learn why some people pay $2000 for a bicycle (and when they find out why, more and more join in). It is a slow boom, but it is still a boom.

Now, I did not mention the electrical boom of the 1880s (Tied in with electric lighting) or the electrical boom of the 1930s (Tied in with Rural electrification) or the 1940s (tied in with WWII and the Atomic bomb projects). Compared to the post WWII booms these are all minor, but at their time major booms.

Side note: Why do I use Color Television NOT the adoption of Digital television? While I believe the adoption of Digital television is another improvement in a Mature Industry, it was Government mandated NOT something down by the industry itself AND it reflects the maturing of Cable Television then Broadcast Television.

Second Side Note: Now Black and White Television went into the bust category in the 1970s as more and more people bought Color Televisions. The bust can last for decades longer then a boom. Black and White Television still held a niche as late as the late 1980s, but then Color Television became so cheap even the portable Black and whites disappeared by the mid 1990s and thus Black and White Television died (and that is from someone who watch 9/11 in glorious Black and White for that was the only Television in my office on that date and time).

[Yavin4]

132. Thanks for that Clarification

Do you also agree that outsourcing and H1B visas are nothing more than desperate attempt to gin up the same growth rate as the four boom periods?

[happyslug]

141. What are you paraphrasing Karl Marx????

One of the reason Marx is so hated, is he was among the first to observe that over time the rate of return on any investment will decline (This is assuming no new invention that restart the process). As the rate of return decline, do to increase competition, you get to a point where pressure builds up to keep up the rate of return. What Marx observed was at that point people will start to cheat, including some of the scams we have seen over the last few years in addition to the search for any way to reduce costs, such as going to the H1B workers and shipping production over seas.

As one person said, Marx may be in error as to how to set up an economy, but his observation of HOW economies work and the history of how things go bad as the rate of return declines is still valid.

Side note, Marx also pointed out as things go bad, and you see more cheating, when a revolution occurs when the "Petty" Bourgeois are driven into the "Working class" do to decline in their income, for there is no where else for the rich to get money from. i.e. that is the big fear today, the lost of income of professionals, including lawyers, brokers and other middle management are doing hat Marx says happens just before any revolution.

[pnwmom]

134. Who says there won't be start-ups in an tech area no one is yet anticipating?

Perhaps in some product now incubating in a university somewhere?

[happyslug]

140. Not me, I am just describing the life cycle.

n/t

[kywildcat]

37. When they start talking about taxing

(again) the profits earned from sending work overseas-then I"ll believe our politicians. Until then-more and more jobs will go overseas-including gov't jobs and state jobs.

[sendero]

42. Yes but..

... while hiring cheap employees to work in your business has worked out reasonably well for employers, outsourcing IT and development work outright has worked much less well. Many companies have tried it and found the results so lacking that they gave up on it.

Shutting down the H1-Bs would definitely help.

[primavera]

145. Do you have a source for that?

From where I sit, it looks like we outsource more jobs in a week than the entire H-1B program takes in in a year.

[earthboundmisfit]

13. A shortage of American tech workers eventually WILL happen due to the discouraging climate

The impact of the low-wage workers is also "discouraging many of our smartest students from entering the technology industry in the first place," said Schumer. "Students can see that paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for advanced schooling is not worth the cost when the market is being flooded with foreign temporary workers willing do to tech work for far less pay."

Yup - eventually there WOULD be a true shortage of U.S. tech workers, because of Americans not going into the tech fields due to the discouraging employment climate created by the use of H-1B's and outsourcing - both used by companies lying that there aren't enough qualified Americans to fill their requirements...
Clever strategy - eventually companies could truthfully say "See? There aren't enough qualified Americans to fill these jobs!"

Thank you, Senator Schumer, and please don't stop here - U.S. tech workers are able, willing and more than capable - we need to be hired!!!

[pnwmom]

17. It's already happening. The grad schools are filled with foreign students, even

though most have more than enough well-qualified U.S. citizens to fill their spots. Then the employers say that they have to hire them, because there aren't enough Americans.

[harun]

48. Agree, happening already en masse.

[hedgehog]

69. That hasn't changed in 30 years - the American students won't

earn enough for that PhD to warrant the extra investment, but the foreign students can use the degree to help them get US citizenship.

For 30 years, I've read articles decrying lack of engineers/scientists next to articles about unemployed engineers/scientists.

[cascadiance]

14. The "Body Shops" he's describing have been around since the early 90's...

and perhaps earlier. I remember managers joking on how they would get H-1B Visa temps that were hidden as a "service" to the corporation that hires them, rather than specifically "temp workers", which would have facilitated the comparison rules more against the hiring firms permanent employees.

This is nothing new Chuck! You and other Senators should have been shutting this practice down at least a decade or two ago!

[susanna]

26. Earlier. Think mid-to-late 80s.

I know this because I was there and did some "body shop" jobs back then. I'm not proud of it, but needed to house, feed, and clothe myself.

IIRC, it all happened on the heels of Ronny Raygun noting that you could fire anyone (federal air traffic controllers). After that, employment became the race to the bottom we ALL now know and hate.

[MH1]

81. working for a body shop is fine if you are a citizen trying to get your foot in the door

in fact the excuse I've heard for companies hiring non-citizens is that Americans supposedly don't want to take temporary jobs. If that is true (big "IF", I think) then anyone sitting on unemployment right now who could take a temporary tech job is a friggin' idiot. Many of these 'temp' jobs can become permanent, especially if you are actually competent. (I could tell horror stories of consultants / contractors that come in and aren't worth a fig).

I got my career started by working for a body shop when I got out of the military. First temp job I took, I found a permanent opportunity, applied and was hired.

[LibDemAlways]

18. The program ought to be stopped immediately. With unemployment

at it's highest level since the Great Depression, there is no justification for continuing to allow foreign workers to steal American jobs. None. And companies that continue to outsource tech jobs ought to face stiff economic penalties. I hope Schumer champions this and keeps it before the public. It's just outrageous.

[housewolf]

19. He's so right! I'm a contract IT worker, and rates have decreased 20 - 40%

over the past 8 years. I'm a well-experienced software QA tester. There is so much competition with young Indian H1B visa workers who will work for so much less that the rates for the type of work I do have come down dramatically - someone I know who just took a contract for half of what she could get a couple years ago. It's harder and harder to find work. Last year, the corp I was contracted to reduced all their contractor's rates 15% mid-contract. It was a matter of "take the cut or leave" as they prepped for outsourcing all their contractor needs to India.

I never expected to see this kind of thing - it's frustrating, demoralizing and quite painful.

[AllTooEasy]

23. My wife came here on an H1-B visa...

...and she's the best employee at her job. My fellow Americans at her office can't touch her. She's constantly cleaning up after their mistakes and redesigning their crap. Hell, her boss gave her the second largest raise amongst 50+ engineers. She gets the xenophobe and sexist heat from the right wingers. I guess the left wingers are playa' hatin' now.

Oh well, they all can go screw themselves while WE rake up the cash and add left-wing kids to the American landscape!!!

[susanna]

28. Hmmmm. n/t

[Tunkamerica]

29. And that refutes nothing.

the cycle of globalization seeking the lowest priced workers continues. Just because you know a current beneficiary doesn't mean that the system isn't hurting American workers. And I really do hope that your wife isn't laid off in a few years from the new crop of even cheaper labor.

[Thor_MN]

49. well, gee, I guess your wife proves that all H1b Visa holders are better than their co-workers

I totally agree with you, all Americans suck. :eyes:

[AllTooEasy]

85. Nope, I'm outshining the H1B engineers at my job.

I understand Shumer. It's not the H1B visa holders who are the problem, it's the H1B temp agencies who will hire ANYBODY with a pulse from overseas. My company bought into this for a while and then fired half of them for:

1) stealing intellectual property
2) incompetence

We can't be like the Right. They hate the foreigners, but praise the "H1B temp agencies" for "good business. Just as they hate and want to criminalize the illegals, but celebrate the earnings of companies who use them.

[whathehell]

108. It's not a question of "hating foreigners"...It's a question of unfair competition

and the fact of it being a nation's first duty to care of it's OWN citizens first.

[DainBramaged]

54. Excuse me?

So you think a Foreign worker is superior to 50+ engineers born and educated here? Is this what she tells you, that she is better than they are?


Hmmmm is right.

I'd shut the door TOMORROW on ALL H1B workers. I've lost 50% of my income in the past decade thanks to them.


Give me a break.

[krabigirl]

62. Wow..well, sometimes, they do work harder. Sometimes they don't. Ro

Not all firms use h1bs to undercut wages. The educational systems in many other countries focus mainly on academics, with a huge push for math and science. We focus a lot on sports. Of course, not everyone here is like that, but as someone who spends time in two countries, the comparison of just the high school education systems alone is shocking.

[DainBramaged]

64. I have ZERO sympathy and respect for them

When the playing field is level, and I can go to India and earn a living or open a shop or simply own a business, then we'll talk.

Until then, they can suck lemons.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

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[whathehell]

111. Well, then maybe we need to spend more attention to OUR education system

so that we will have jobs for our own people...

Maybe these companies who look askance at "our education system" could start paying their fair share of the tax base to insure that.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[freebrew]

125. As a non-degreed ME I have seen shit that would

scare the hell out of you.
The company I USED to work for had several H1-Bs working in their R&D dept.
So, as a non degree, I wasn't allowed to do the same work. Yet, when the parts were 'designed' and ready for production, I was the one everyone came to for the fixes. And there were always fixes, redesigns and many times, scrapped the entire idea and start ed over with my own design. Many of these engineers have had no previous experience in their field. They were hostile and arrogant.

And after fixing their fuck-ups, do you think the company had any intentions of allowing anyone like me to take over the design work?


Right. Now, granted, there were some good workers, some bright with good ideas and skills, but that was the exception not the rule.

[amandabeech]

55. Too bad your wife isn't making a contribution to her own country.

I'm sure that your wife could have a phenomenal career in her country.

Does her country have a program by which you could work there, too?

[krabigirl]

61. Are you serious? Omg

[amandabeech]

91. Only to the extent that the writer seems to be concerned about his wife's status.

It's always good to have a Plan B.

In this case, if Schumer were to be successful in tightening the H-1b and L-1 programs, it is possible that the writer's wife (and perhaps the writer) would have to return to her home country.

Other countries deserve great workers, too.

If that's "OMG", then I can't help you.

[AllTooEasy]

92. She sends money home to her/our parents...that's her contribution

That was a cute, but lame insult. She can't have a successful career in her native Islamic country, being a woman and a Christian.

Actually, we seriously planned to move back there or Canada or Europe if McCain/Palin had won. We rather be Christians living under Sharia law than living under McCain's and/or Palin's America.

[amandabeech]

97. It wasn't the least bit cute, but I am glad that you have a plan B.

And I meant no insult to your wife's abilities.

[AllTooEasy]

106. Then I retract...

Have a great day! Seriously though, if Repubs win in 2012, we all may have to run.

[scentopine]

56. LOL! I've been hard core tech for over 30 years, anyone

familiar with math and politics knows that this exception does not make the rule. I also know that any good engineering company will NEVER tolerate xenophobic behavior or sexist "heat". So given that your wife experiences this on a regular basis its not hard to believe anyone with modest skills could work there and seem like a genius. This behavior is very uncommon in engineering profession except at the worst companies (which include classified military sites that are difficult to control and where I have seen it first hand).

I have enough time and data regarding H1Bs that I have reached some general conclusions across a reasonable cross section of telecom tech companies.

1. H1Bs historically are poorly trained. Many come from developing countries where their first encounters with product development, automation, test equipment, computer aided design, come very late in their education and/or their career. Often their first encounter is here in USA. Think about that as you pay higher taxes so your kids can get computers in kindergarten.

2. Those that do come with training received it from US companies who invested heavily in Asia. These companies take advantage of unregulated, low skill, low wage labor markets.

3. Those that do come with solid education credentials most often receive it in US universities.

4. H1Bs contribute to a toxic work environment. They rarely speak up when something is wrong. If they fall out of favor or lose their jobs, its back to Asia. I've watched H1Bs poor skills and compliant nature wreak havoc at companies. H1Bs are easy to exploit.

5. H1B communication skills continue to be a problem in the workplace.

6. The growing trend in US located tech companies is to hire "human resource" executives from India. From there benefits and other policies are being developed to be consistent with those found in Asian companies. As you can imagine, things are not improving. Because of this I've seen H1Bs put in charge of teams of US workers. To an MBA woodchuck, it just makes sense. For the health and welfare of the company and employees, a very, very, bad move.

Over time, the United States is losing its ability to engineer anything other than complex financial schemes to steal money from people.

It is not a matter of Asia catching up. It is a matter of the USA working conditions will degrade until they match those in the lowest wage markets in India, China, etc.

If people are wondering why the economy is so bad, start with H1B, outsourcing, horrible free trade agreements and near zero taxes for individuals and companies who profit from this exploitation.

p.s. If your wife is in telco h/w or s/w, I'd be happy to review the designs at the center of your post. I'm interested in seeing what she considers good and bad. I have seen H1Bs will remove safeguards in embedded systems design because something "should never happen". Subsequently these are heralded as improvements. For example - code that might prevent a "lock up" or "crash" or at least gracefully handle these events. I frequently see designs that follow specs to the letter, not allowing or considering exceptions. When something fails, it is a nightmare to debug.

[AllTooEasy]

99. I agree with most of what you say...

...and I've had similiar experiences at my engineering company. I also add the stealing of intellectual property to your rant. We've had several cases of that at my company.

My point is that we should not have a Right Wing style blanket generalization of people. Keep the deserving. Ax the rest. Punish the H1B temp agencies who indescriminately hire any foreigner with a pulse.

My wife is a Mensa(officially, she actually passed the test), graduated in the top 1% of her engineering class at an American Univ., and tested 156 on an American IQ test. Her boss says she's great (not her) and her Engineering Department Director has given her 2 awards in 3 yrs, faster than anyone in her office. In addition, she's a tree hugging Enviromental Engineer, trying to stop America's ecological destruction of our precious Earth. I seriously doubt you are qualified to critic her Soil and Water Rejuvenation proposals.

[scentopine]

142. Be careful about bragging, it labors your point and makes you less credible

I will argue that you have the most to gain by a change in the H1B system to choke of the flood of low skill workers lowering our quality of life. If the system made it more difficult for employers to hire unqualified and low skill employees, then your wife would stand out as someone who really is uniquely qualified. As it is there is nothing to differentiate her. The reality is that she is just a statistic in the H1B crisis. That is a fact. As heartwarming as it is to hear about your romance, it is completely irrelevant to the greater problem. I also know many rich people who want the health care system to stay exactly as it is. Their success is also irrelevant in the face of 50,000,000 people who are not receiving adequate treatment. A nation full of unhealthy people is bad for rich and poor. A nation without jobs is bad for rich and poor.

I won't bore anyone here with my credentials, not because I'm not proud of them . They are at least equal to your spouse's. I have too much experience to go with it and have seen many paper tigers prove to be a disaster when challenged to bring their Mensa skills to bear on real problems (I believe our US President is turning out to be exactly that). I think that if you find your wife having difficulty with her peers and harassment, championing her IQ and Mensa scores will backfire.

I have worked with "smart" H1Bs. When placed into decision making situations where they needed to stand up and recommend the right thing even though it may run counter to group thinking, I do not have a single positive experience to report. Every single one of them would rather see the company go out of business than challenge their boss. This is now the behavior expected of US employees. Compliance and nothing more.

I have also noticed that women workers from India often *will not* challenge their Indian male supervisor. This was a volatile situation I witnessed first hand at a bad company. I saw this where H1Bs were put into management positions directing other H1B workers. It was blatant. Needless to say the company suffered greatly from poor product offerings.

To the most ridiculous extent - should Mensa members receive preferential health care? How about IQ? Aren't they more important in the economic food chain and should they have other advantages over US citizens who have lowered measured test scores? Should a Mensa score or IQ be included on your drivers license?

I suspect your wife would have the means and intelligence to find gainful employment in the USA via traditional channels of residency. Or if she has some reason to stay a citizen of her native country, it sounds like there would be plenty of opportunities to be successful there as well.

One other word on bragging - as smart as your wife is... there is someone smarter. They will look at your wife and say "that lady isn't very smart, why shouldn't I have more rights and privileges than she does?" You can replace smarter with "richer, stronger, healthier, better looking, thinner, fatter, etc".

[krabigirl]

60. The h1 b visa is not always used to undercut wages. Sadly, though, this is the exception, not the

Rule.

[MH1]

83. for every 1 great H1B worker, and there are some,

I can show you 5 who suck.

Congrats for you if your wife is one of the good ones. But don't think they are all like her, because they aren't.

And gee you don't work at her job, do you?

Also, speaking for myself personally, I don't have a problem with the individuals trying to make it in this world, I have a problem with management when they undercut salaries of talented local people by bringing in temps on H1B who very often do CRAPPY work - and then leave. And guess who has to clean up after them because management didn't even bother to make sure their work was checked before they got paid?

[AllTooEasy]

102. I know they aren't all like her, because I've worked with numerous H1Bs

I don't work with her, but we do TALK between the romance :)

Plus, I don't take her word for it, I look at the awards on her desk and listen to the admiration her coworkers and supervisors verbally direct to me without my asking. They tell me that she's "Brilliant", "Special", etc. I would be foolish to take her word for it!

Let's not generalize about people like the Right Wingers. The real problem is the "H1B temp agencies" who hire any foreigner with a pulse to replace an American. They deserve our scorn.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laughingliberal]

24. K & R and Hell Yeah! eom

[avaistheone1]

25. Way to go Senator Schumer!

[cascadiance]

30. What's curious about this is that Schumer earlier was PUSHING the H-1B program last labor day!

So, I wonder if he's trying to "revise" his image now, knowing that at some point someone will bring this past up again and trying to get ahead of that happening...

Read more here in an earlier article from a year ago...

http://www.cio.com/article/497081/Analysis_the_Next_H_1B_Fight_Begins_By_Labor_Day

Analysis: the Next H-1B Fight Begins By Labor Day
Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) plans to introduce a comprehensive immigration reform bill by Labor Day that seems certain to include a way to increase the H-1B cap.

By Patrick Thibodeau on Mon, July 13, 2009

Computerworld — WASHINGTON -- Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) plans to introduce a comprehensive immigration reform bill by Labor Day that seems certain to include a way to increase the H-1B cap. By introducing the bill in the worse possible economic climate, and then citing Labor Day as his deadline for introducing it, you could almost argue that Schumer is egging on his opponents. But that's not new for him. Among the people he has enlisted to help him is Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan, who testified this year at an immigration committee hearing that the cap protects U.S. workers from global competition, creating a "privileged elite."

Judges Ask Tough Questions in H-1B Case

Schumer's view follows naturally from his unabashed support of the H-1B visa program and his belief that foreign workers are critical to U.S. economic success. And as head of the Senate Subcommittee on Immigration, Refugees and Border Security, Schumer is in a position to make changes.

Schumer outlined his plans in an interview with Associated Press last week; the bill is still being drafted.

The Senate has had no problem approving increases in the H-1B cap in the past. The Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2006, for instance, proposed raising the cap on H-1B visas to 115,000 and included a market-cap provision that allowed the the number of visas to grow by 20% a year if the prior cap was reached.
...

So which is the real Chuck Schumer folks? Kind of like asking who was the real Chris Dodd too (who is doing his image "transition" in the reverse direction). Just shows that we need some REAL public campaign finance reform! Just say NO to corporatist bribesters!

[midnight]

44. Good point. Our elected officials have to stop soaking the

American work force with visas. This was a big problem before the economy was driven into the ditch.

[jeff47]

115. The change is due...

...to upstate NY imploding. Things have gotten very bad once you're out of "the city". Schumer needs upstate votes if he wants to keep his job.

[LooseWilly]

31. Funny how tech workers feel "abused" when their wages are undercut, but it is ok for union workers?

Union public sector workers (government employees), union educators (teachers), union manufacturers (especially in the auto industry)... when their wages are cut by the bosses, half the DU voices applaud, and recite talking-points about how the unions are inefficient... and the artificially high wages they demand aren't justified.

It starts happening to software people, IT people, etc. ... and suddenly it's a crime unanimously decried, and even the double-plus centrists like Schumer decide that "something needs to be done"?

Why am I reminded of http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/animalfarm/10/">Animal Farm: "All animals are equal, But some animals are more equal than others." ? Are union workers less equal than tech workers? From the sounds of it, the corporate overlords don't seem to think so anymore...

[w4rma]

34. No, it's the same DLC apologists who disparage union workers and IT workers who are Americans. (nt)

[onpatrol98]

52. How about a bigger joke...

Contractors, farm workers, catfish and chicken plant workers, lawn care, etc. complained for years that their wages were being undercut by illegal immigrants...republicans and democrats began chanting "We need these workers for jobs Americans won't do."

I knew Americans (and still know, Americans)in these jobs. They were demanding decent wages, just like IT workers (and I'm one), and union workers.

Me personally, I don't see one dime's bit of difference. Undercutting the pay of an American, is undercutting the pay of an American. Whether he plucks a chicken, writes or tests computer programs, or teaches children.

I think it's wrong to think any of these situations deserves higher ground. I think we ought to demand more for all of our workers.

As for me, and on this board I know I'll be one of the few, but that's okay. Chuck can shove his comprehensive immigration plan back up his sleeve.

Comprehensive immigration will give us the same thing, it gave us under Ronald Reagan...more illegal immigrants. Because our crooked companies demand cheaper, and still cheaper labor. And, newly minted Americans will simply now stand next to the rest of us old Americans clamoring for decent, living wages.

There'll simply be more of us to complain.

[cascadiance]

79. +1 - It just shows that we need labor organized more globally...

... and not just with what have traditionally been labor union jobs, but white collar jobs too.

And though some jobs that require more local presence like health care are more immune to that now, even there there are some that are getting outsourced, like radiologists being outsourced to India to evaluate X-Rays after a doctor has taken them. The health care industry is impacted by outsourcing there and will spread to other areas too where they can over time.

If we organize more globally and fight to help remove that "bottom" that these companies are racing towards with free trade agreements, that will force them to be more honest so that even "free trade" agreements won't help them having to pay living wages and taking advantage of "slave labor" and lax environmental organizations.

Unions should rely less on just raw force like they've used in the past that got them mixed up with the mob. They need to become more like "guilds" that will have them in effect help their members be more globally competitive. And organizations for high tech workers like IEEE and ACM should become more than just for the technical advancement of their members, but also go more towards what unions have been doing and have parts of those organizations set up to help organize their members to demand better working conditions too. These different sets of organizations (unions and high tech worker organizations) might do well to join forces, and not just as American entities, but as global entities, so that renegotiation of NAFTA, etc. will become necessary to have it work as an entity for all of us to do "fair trade", and not just for multinational corps benefit with the "free trade" monstrosity it creates now.

[Retrograde]

123. Kudos to both of you

We've lost most of our manufacturing jobs to overseas plants, and at least where I live we're seeing a lot of skilled craft jobs - carpentry, painting, roofing - go to casual laborers who are picked up for the time the job takes because they're cheaper for the general contractors. It all comes down to the bottom line - the bosses have to get their big salaries and bonuses, doncha know?

There's always been greed, but I've never seen it at the levels it is now. The recently fired head of HP was in the process of negotiating a multi-million dollar package for himself: back in the early days (i.e., the seventies) you'd expect a CEO to get a bigger salary than most employees, but it was usually about 3-5 times bigger, not orders of magnitude.

[eridani]

33. Another reason why I stay a Democrat

Even though he sucks green monkey dicks on financial reform, he's dead on right about H1-B visas. Most Dems have some redeeaming features; few Repubs do.

[boppers]

35. As a non H-1B tech worker: Ha-Ha, you suck.

You don't get moved up in the line for being "American", where your tech education is laughable.

When Americans (in the USA sense) start caring about science and technology again, then things can change, but until then, well... it's not so good.

True story:
I had to explain to an american college *GRADUATE* what a delta was.

Let that sink in for a second.

Our college grads don't know 6th grade math.

[Greyhound]

73. Any time you want to compare stories of dumbasss ignorant college 'graduates' just let me know.

After Clinton & Co. wiped out the IT field, I made a very good living following behind the H1-(b)'s and outsourcers cleaning up their messes. Just one quick example, the "Masters" in computer science that Infosys sent to develop a few simple reports that I and another "dumb American" had to spend an entire afternoon trying to explain what a MOD is.

There are plenty of morons from everywhere to go around.

[boppers]

75. You had me recoiling in disgust at the mere mention of 'Infosys'...

Point made, though.

[haele]

82. The trend to for-profit schools have lead to this-

Your "American College graduate" who had no clue what a delta was probably graduated from an online diploma mill or only went through a community college 2-year, trade training, or GED graduate - options which are pretty much the only education left to kids who don't live in the more "sophisticated" school districts who actually provide a well-rounded K-12 school curricula rather than just teach the kids the test.

It's based on the race to the cheapest common denominator - the same mindset that leads to hiring H-1Bs with pretty much similar education to undercut an experienced American workforce.

True Story to match your "true story" -

Six years ago as only a simple American lower-middle class high school graduate with military tech training from the 1970's (probably equivalent to 4 years college - barely a BS degree's worth), I had to to spend 5 months of a 14 month systems development project explaining to our partner corporation's H-1B Engineer - an "MSEE" from an Indonesian Institution of Higher Education (not an actual University or Polytechnic College) why he needed to include the required software safeguards in the system we were on a project with, teach him real-world risk mitigation/Systems Engineering practices, communicate the "delta" between requirements and performance expectations, and how to develop a simple operational verification test. He couldn't seem to grasp why he couldn't just napkin-engineer a product and that be good enough to turn over.

I've met American technicians who were trained to be pretty decent technicians and mechanics on the 8 month - 2 year trade school level but they're asked to be Engineers because most companies don't understand the difference between technicians and engineers - and wonder why they can't get real Engineers on a Technician's salary.

Most companies I'm familiar with that have undercut native Engineers to hire H-1B "Engineers" are actually hiring technicians that are just a bit better trained than a generic right out of trade school technician. They're not hiring the MSEE from Oxford, or University of Cairo, or University of Bangkulu, or University of Manila; they're hiring the graduate with an MSEE from "Bohol Institute of Technology". Which seems to be a very fine technical college to start out from, but it's rather like hiring from DeVrys or University of Phoenix online Universities.

Which means, you may still end up with a college graduate with little experience that does not understand what the term "delta" means in Engineering. But this time, he or she is an H1-B from another country instead of from the good ol' USA, and was hired to meet the requirements to have an identified credentialed "Engineer" on the project as well as to save costs by undercutting wages that it would otherwise cost to have someone with real-world experience and an 8-year degree to be considered a credentialed Engineer.

Haele

[amandabeech]

96. I used to have a roommate from Turkey.

She claimed a Ph.D. in chemistry from a university in Ankara. She lost her H-1B job teaching at a CC because she wasn't so hot in the classroom. I suspect she had problems teaching in English.

Anyway, one day we were discussing her alternatives, and I suggested that she try Canada. She said that Canada did not recognize her degree at all. It wasn't even recognized as a B.A. She would have had to have started all over again in the Canadian higher education system.

Perhaps her Ph.D. was not equivalent to a U.S. or Canadian Ph.D., but only the Canadians understood that.

Have you heard if your Indonesian colleague's degree would be accepted in Canada?

It might be a litmus test.

[haele]

126. I don't know if his degree would have been accepted in Canada -

His degree was from an Indonesian Institute, rather than a College or University. He wasn't stupid, and he knew the basic technical requirements and enough advanced theory to do his work, but his processes and standards of work were haphazard at best.
My understanding is that in most non-US/Western European countries, and Institute is identified as a higher learning organization that can issue degrees that are specifically credentialed through the locale in which it operates.
Which means it might only be accredited to a standard of a particular provence rather than meet a national or international standard.
In the US, if it says "Associates, Baccalaureate, or Master's Degree of" or "Doctorate of", most HR departments don't look much further - unless their contract requires a specific standard or experience in addition to the piece of paper.

Haele

[cascadiance]

137. As someone who used to live in Ankara myself, I suspect it was METU...

that she got her degree from (Middle East Technical University). They've been around since at least the 70's when I was there as a kid.

This is a problem for Indians too. Though they get their bachelor's degrees paid for (and we DON'T!) it is at least a better jump start of education than an American high school diploma that is the "equivalent" freebee here. But most Indians know that if they want to compete with Americans that have a bachelor's degree from an American school, they either have to get a bachelor's degree from here in the states or get a graduate degree over there, and pay extra. They still have a financial advantage in terms of what they get for their money in an education over the rest of us here, even if their degree programs aren't as good as American universities.

[AllTooEasy]

107. Delta...as in Delta Sigma Theta

...it's a Black joke :)

[boppers]

122. Delta Delta Delta!

It's a woman's joke.

For a nerd/geek spin off, check out the tri-lambda.

[whathehell]

116. I can't tell you how many times my husband, an American educated pharmaceutical executive

has had to bail out some of the Indian and Canadian goofs he's forced to work with.

Let that sink in a second.

[boppers]

124. So, the stupid is global?

We're outsourcing our "stupid" to other nations, because we don't have enough here?

(is there a tragic-comedy-face-palm emoticon?)

[whathehell]

128. As is the smart..

The "stupid" and the "smart" are obviously universal.

Point: We're IN sourcing the smart AND the stupid because they work cheaper...Get it?

[burnsei sensei]

38. The truth hurts.

But the policy that privileges foreigners over Americans is what a multicultural cross-party elite decided a long time ago.
What Schumer is calling for is a major change in direction, and I'm sure there will be resistance to it.
It will take the form of cries of bigotry and self-interest. But there is self-interest and then there is enlightened self-interest.
My university proudly states that it's one of the top universities in the country . . . in the admission of foreign students.
They get twice as much money for admitting a foreign student than for admitting an American.
And for every slot a foreigner fills, an American is denied.
This country has stabbed itself in the stomach repeatedly.

[hedgehog]

89. Another hot button issue - when my kids get the financial assistance

for their education that many foreign students do, then I'll be in favor of admitting foreign students. It's really sad to see Amererican students at a State university that I pay for graduate with their BS and go to work to pay off loans while foreign students stay on for the graduate degrees.

[whathehell]

117. A pertinent quote from Thomas Jefferson: "The merchant has no patirotism"

[burnsei sensei]

138. I'm sure we won't hear Beckie et al

speaking that one out loud!

[whathehell]

146. No, I think not.

[xchrom]

39. recommend -- end that damn program. nt

[northernlights]

40. it's about effing time

too bad they didn't lift a finger 10 years ago when tech crashed and burned.

Or back in '94, when rethug Gov. Bill Weld tried to CUT OFF ALL UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS for Digital Equipment people, so he could give that money to Raytheon people, along with all the other special unemployment benefits they got.

For years this stupid country treated some of its hardest working and brightest like dirt, and now they wonder why the next generation of best and brightest went into finance. Maybe to get revenge?

[RetroLounge]

43. +1000

K&R

RL

[DailyGrind51]

46. Some our older "out-sourced" tech workers were former "down-sized" middle-managers,

who re-trained for tech careers following lay-offs in the "lean and mean" '80s!

[pipoman]

47. I have to wonder how many of the opponents of H-1B

are also champions of "free trade"...NAFTA, GATT etal? H-1B is (in many ways)to white collar what NAFTA is to blue collar..I know Schumer is a champion of NAFTA..

[Confusious]

53. Hate them all

End NATA, GATT, H1B

[Populist_Prole]

93. Because it's finally THEIR ox getting gored

Free-trade / outsourcing was cheered at worst, tolerated at best by white-collar types because they figured it wouldn't affect them...and they probably figured it would make stuff they buy cost less, buying that whole narrative hook, line, sinker.

Now they're in the same boat with the blue-collar folks they previously looked down their nose at and NOW they think, "hey, we're all in this together".

Riiiigggghhhhhhttt! ( sarcasm )

[amandabeech]

98. I have never liked any of them.

If we do not take care of ourselves first, then who will?

[OhioChick]

139. I agree with you, you're right. n/t

[valerief]

50. Give the man a hallelujah for stating the obvious! nt

[Odin2005]

51. No shit, Chuck.

[kenfrequed]

58. I am amazed that they "discovered" this so late

When this program was enhanced last in the nineties we were supposedly in what business was calling a tech labor shortage. There were two problems with this. One it was false as there was a huge number of people going to technical and community colleges hoping to score these new in-demand jobs and Two, a labor shortage is a good thing for almost everyone. It means that the worker is actually able to negotiate on a more even and solid basis and that we will get paid more.

Unfortunately they loosened H-1B a bit inviting more workers from abroad that resulted in depressing wages here and having the consequence of allowing businesses to export the jobs back to those countries that provided the tech workers.

[Ka hrnt]

59. The Real Science Gap (excellent article)

This article is well-worth the (lengthy) read.

[OhioChick]

66. Good read.....Here's another interesting article:

U.S.: H-1B workers outnumber unemployed techies

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9133529/U.S._H_1B_workers_outnumber_unemployed_techies

[patrice]

65. Discourages tech studies &, hence, the option for Americans to WORK for themselves AT HOME

[MannyGoldstein]

67. Speaking as an engineer, H-1Bs are a catastrophe

They are simply used to drive down the wages of technologists.

[JustAnotherGen]

70. I don't understand why

We can't block them entireley for 2-3 years. I was watching KO last night and he had the man that Newt Gingrich "TRIED" to say was on welfare that had been interviewed in the NY Times. The reality is that this FORMER Engineer in the Automotive industry was not accepting jobs at $7.50 an hour because it was less than the Unemployment Insurance ha had paid into for 32-35 years.

I don't understand why this man can't be re-trained to use his obviously seasoned Engineering skills for another industry? And as long as the Visa program continues as is . . . He won't be re-trained and if he IS re-trained - then he would be paid a cheap/low rate.

Someone mentioned Germany had restrictions on foreign workers when their population's unemployment rose.

France does something similar and they STICK to it - that is you as a French company have to prove that you have done anything and everything under the sun to hire a French citizen prior to going outside of the country to bring someone in.

[musette_sf]

118. ++++ 1000K

This sh!t just must end.

[DallasNE]

72. Indeed

Back in the years leading up to Y2K I worked as a technical consultant on mainframe applications. I was in fact the first non-Indian consultant working for this consulting company. Part of my role was to interview prospects to come on board. Almost without exception the Indian applicants had superior skill sets. I always viewed this as a willingness for the Indians to accept less pay, not having family roots that made the travel requirements and the type of educational background the candidates had.

[amandabeech]

101. Did you end up working with them and their U.S. counterparts.

My friends tell me that that the paper looks good, but the work doesn't match the paper.

[DallasNE]

130. Yes, The Paper Did Look Good

The applications were filtered before they got to me but they all said a BS in engineering. I'm guessing that they did more rehearsing than the Americans as I got better answers. My Indian co-workers, for the most part, were highly talented and hard working. I was proud to call them my co-workers. Rarely did I see an American with a BS in engineering and that is the point Sen. Schumer is making. Americans can make more money in financial services and things like that so they are not competing directly in the technology area.

[UndertheOcean]

74. I guess if I want to fulfill my dream of Immigrating to the US I have to be done with my papers soon

As a freethinking gender confused effeminate Atheist teenager with severe bouts of depression I knew that staying in my ultraconservative home country would really drive me over the edge.

I had this Romanticized vision of the West , of the freedom of thought and expression there , and while that vision is not exactly true , real life is always grittier than your dreams the West is still orders of magnitude more open and free and accepting than the Middle East.

I remember as a 17 year old researching my options throughout the long summer nights : what were they ? You can't just go to any embassy and ask to immigrate ? getting a Visa is next to impossible , unless it is a non-immigrant Visa and they don't give those to kids.

My only option was School , or maybe Asylum if I cause a huge trauma with my parents by coming out to them. They already new I was an Atheist but hoped that was just a phase. (In that society people have gone to jail and some killed because of that , that in itself is not a walk in the park). So either opt for a traumatic confrontation , or be political and pragmatic about it ... I preferred the pragmatic approach. So School it was.

Lucky I am somewhat of a Math whiz. But still I slaved for 3 1/2 years to finish a 5 year program and graduate top of my class. 21 , and with my B.Sc. in EE in one hand , and a GRE score that was in the 0.1% percentile , I earned a very prestigious Graduate Fellowship in a US University. They offered to pay 100% of my tuition and provide me with a yearly 16K stipend in exchange of doing research and teaching , all in the US , in the West , Freedom ! finally my dream has come true !.

It was not so easy , or rosy , coming from a country were 3K a year is rich , 16K/year was not what I expected , the culture was not what I expected , there was still a lot of prejudice , small mindedness , and intolerance even in the US. My depression grew worse, I practically turned into a lab rat . But I inched through , got my doctorate , worked for a research Lab in the renewable energy field , jumped around a bit . Still coveting a tenure track position but I want to publish more papers first . In this competitive field the 5 I have is not enough for a tenure track position.

But their is a shadow looming over my dream , I am not a US citizen , and after finishing School my only option was to utilize the H1-B Visa . It pains me that I may be inadvertently causing suffering to current US citizens by following my childhood dream. I swear if I had other options I would have tried them , for obvious reasons I can't marry , did that mistake once , but you can't deceive yourself , you just can't lie to yourself.

It is a long road , and I still probably have 5 more years to secure citizenship (I already spent 7 years). And there is a chance I will fail in that , the doors might close before I get a chance. What is left then ? I guess only death , or maybe another Doctorate , or maybe I should grow some balls and confront my misogynist society and immediate family and to hell with consequences, to hell with pragmatism.

I am sorry for a rant , but I feel trapped . If their is a way I can pursue my dream without financially hurting native born Americans , I would feel much better , but it is a matter of life or death for me . Maybe if one of you lived in my society a little you will forgive me , you will understand

[catrose]

77. Dept of teh Obvious

But he's the only one pointing it out.

[Kermitt Gribble]

90. It certainly is refreshing to hear someone finally speak out about this.

Unfortunately, I don't have much confidence that we'll see any action. All it will take is a few fat campaign contribution checks, and we'll never hear about the H1B visa problem again.

[superconnected]

100. 600 million for border security when they cut 12million off of food stamps (the poorest people)

2 days ago? Let me guess, we're hiring Xe?

Raid on foodstamps:
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/08/12-3

[Phlem]

114. From The Department of Duh

It's only depleted millions jobs here in the US. I'm glad someone's figured it out before the last person to leave turns out the lights.

-p

[AllTooEasy]

119. Mostly agree with this story, but it's partly BS....here's why

Young Americans are NOT discouraged to enter the tech/engineering industry because of H1Bs. They are discouraged because:

a) Engineering School is the worse undergrad experience possible. You study to 1am every night, miss out on all the partying, destroy your body with coffee/Carbs/Sugar/Mountain Dew/Jolt Cola, and are mentally humiliated for 4, 5, or 6 years by sadistic professors. Plus, engineering classes are sausage fests!!! You'll find a hot Asian in a class every now and then, but don't count on that unless you attend UCLA. It's a major for diehard virgins.

b) The vocation is not appreciated here. America wants/loves the baller, the actor/actress, the model, the tv personality, the rocker, etc. Snoop Dog(rapper, criminal, pornographer) can't get away from the freaks, but who wants to screw the inventer of WiFi, USB, or the mouse?

c) The career is perceived as boring...and it's mostly right.

d) Everyone wants the fast money. Engineering careers pay well, but very rarely the Big Dollars. My first boss told me in 1993 "You'll never be rich, but you'll never be poor either".

e) Engineers are perceived as the least socially acceptable people in America, aka Biggest Nerds. I know engineers who won't tell woman at bars that they are engineers, because they fear immediate rejection. Telling a girl that you are starving musician, actor, or artist gets you a better chance.

HIBs are discouraging our young people from entering the tech field??? BulllllShiiiit!!!! They got better reasons.

Still, we need H1B reform to fix the negative economic/employment impact.

[Dawson Leery]

120. The H-1B program should be eliminated.

H-1B visas are a legal means to import cheap labor.

[whathehell]

129. + 1000 n/t

[MrsBrady]

121. I recruted for 3 years, 3 years ago.

Companies are paying tech salaries, just above what the legal pay is for H1b.
It's around $27 dollars an hour. At least when I was recruiting.

Guys would complain to me that they used to be making 100 to 150k per year....sometimes more than that.
I'm talking high end telco, high end networking, high end cell site, high end electronics, type stuff.

Jobs would go unfilled many times because no one wanted to work for that pay. My company didn't use H1-b, but others would.
an H1-b will do that job at that pay. This was also 3 years ago when things were soft, but not bottoming out yet.

Now I'm sure that people would be willing to work at those rates just to be working.

It almost feels like it's planned.

[47of74]

131. If I had my way the H-1B visa fee would be one million dollars a month

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

143. K & R