Multiple shooting at Washington state park near Seattle stemmed from argument

[depakid]

Source: AP

Investigators say a shooting at a state park near Seattle that left two dead and four wounded stemmed from an argument between two groups of people, one of which was celebrating a birthday party.

King County Sheriff's Sgt. John Uruquhart said Sunday the two people killed during the shooting late Saturday at Lake Sammamish State Park were a 33-year-old man from Kent, Wash., and a 30-year-old man from Seattle.

Urquhart says one of the men was found with a gun on his body. Their names were not released.

The violence erupted near the edge of the lake between two groups of people who were about 50 to 75 yards apart. Lake Sammamish State Park is about 20 miles east of downtown Seattle. Urquhart says investigators at the scene have recovered four guns and at least 20 spent shell casings. He says six people were taken into custody, but no one has been booked into jail.

Read more: http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/07/shooting_at_washington_state_p.html

[Warren Stupidity]

1. damn good thing these idiots were armed

otherwise somebody might have not gotten hurt.

[liberalmike27]

9. This is a Classic Example isn't it

OF why everyone should not be armed, and generally, we're all better off if we aren't, with that occasional exception.

I've been saying for years, what if everyone had guns at the school shooting, and some NRA hero pulls his gun out, shoots at the assailant, then another pulls out his gun, and shoots at the NRA guy, and pretty soon, bullets are flying in all directions, and who knows who gets hit, not to mention all of the people up to a mile behind each shot, that might hit someone.

Can you say cluster f*ck? And all of this, not to mention the danger of someone else snatching some fat slow guy's gun out and shooting someone. It isn't like it's impossible. Most of the guys who carry them are like me, can't see their toes too well, nor that gun underneath the hood, below the roll, you know what I mean.

[AtheistCrusader]

15. Actually, a school official stopped a school shooting once, by running out to his car and getting

his hunting weapon. Not sure if he was a member of the NRA or not. Not sure if that even matters.
Also two law students in a Virginia college. They didn't know each other. Both confronted the correct person, and didn't shoot each other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_Middle_School_dance_shooting

In none of these incidents did a non-police officer armed responder get shot by anyone else, or shoot any bystanders by mistake.

[AtheistCrusader]

17. By the way.

"King County Sheriff's deputy John Urquhart said people from two different groups, which included members from two rival south Seattle gangs, were arguing near the swimming area of Lake Sammamish State park when gunshots rang out around 9 p.m."

[AtheistCrusader]

16. Gang members often do bring guns where they are unwelcome.

"King County Sheriff's deputy John Urquhart said people from two different groups, which included members from two rival south Seattle gangs, were arguing near the swimming area of Lake Sammamish State park when gunshots rang out around 9 p.m."

[Warren Stupidity]

32. yeah only nice white people should be allowed to go everywhere armed

that is what is says right in the constitution.

[AtheistCrusader]

37. Hahaha so who suggested your name?

There are rules. For one, you can't be a felon. Number 2, must be over 21. That eliminates quite a lot of them right there. I bet you a beer not a single one of the people involved in this shootout had a concealed weapons permit. And some, if not all, were completely ineligible to posess a firearm at all. I know the one identified by name as a victim wasn't. Legally forbidden from having a firearm of any type. Possess or purchase.

Law abiding citizens should be allowed to 'go everywhere armed'. Most of these were breaking the law simply by drinking in the park.
It's not about race, it's about thugs being law breaking thugs.

I've seen white people being shitheads in that park too, and I called the park rangers. Same for a poacher. Also white.

[uppityperson]

2. aw damn. Here's a bit more from Seattle TImes....

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012388376_sammamish19m.html

The two groups, including people with gang affiliations, were each picnicking near the water's edge, about 50 to 75 feet apart, when several members of one group taunted members of the second group, said King County sheriff's spokesman Sgt. John Urquhart.

A fistfight apparently erupted and someone from one group pulled out a gun and fired it into the air as a warning, he said. After that, "it sounds to me like everybody pulled out guns," Urquhart said.

It's unclear what sparked the argument, but members of both groups were apparently heavily armed, he said. "There were lots of guns and lots of gunfire," Urquhart said on Sunday. "It boggles the mind how dangerous this was."

Urquhart said it's unclear whether the motive for the shootings stemmed from a gang rivalry, though investigators are looking into that angle. He said members of both groups were primarily of Asian descent....

[wordpix]

49. sounds like a nice day in the park for a child or elderly grandmother

:sarcasm:

If we don't control these guns, more of them will be hurt

[Make7]

3. More Federal stimulus funds vs deficit reduction.

I bet that's what it was....
 

[zenprole]

7. LMAO

Nice.

[laconicsax]

4. So is this one of those situations that demonstrates how universal gun ownership will cut shootings?

:shrug:

[AtheistCrusader]

13. No, this is what happens when gang bangers are asked to quiet down or whatever.

Ask them not to be jerks, and bad things happen. A group of people I was with on Alki beach had to run for our fucking lives when I was in high school, and you can be sure, not a single one of them was carrying legally.

[laconicsax]

26. I should have included the sarcasm tag. n/t

[Kali]

19. universal gun ownership?

:wtf:

[laconicsax]

25. A common anti-gun control argument is that more guns make for a safer populace.

They say that if everybody is armed, then gun violence will decrease through a nonsense version of mutually-assured destruction--no one will want to shoot first because they know that their intended target will shoot back.

[slackmaster]

27. See reply #23

They say that if everybody is armed, then gun violence will decrease...

That is a Straw Man.

[laconicsax]

29. Maybe you'd like to correct me on it then.

You've passed up two opportunities so far. Tell me, what is the argument am I mischaracterizing?
Is it http://www.seattlepi.com/opinion/299775_gunrebut16.html">this one that proclaims that, "responsible gun ownership is..a proven way to reduce crime and save lives."

Is it http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0226493660/ref=mp_s_a_1?qid=1279590992&sr=8-1">this one? The main title of the book is, "More Guns, Less Crime." Here's an http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html">interview with the author in which he makes the claim that increased gun ownership will reduce crime.

Clearly the argument is that an increase in gun ownership will result in a reduction in crime. The logical extension of that is that universal gun ownership would eliminate crime.

[slackmaster]

35. Nobody has ever seriously suggested arming literally everybody

That is a hyperbolic distortion of the sources you have cited.

I think most people agree with these points:

- There are people who cannot be trusted with firearms and should not be permitted to have them, and

- People who do not want to be armed should not be forced to arm themselves.

I hope that clears up my objection to the point.

[AtheistCrusader]

40. Works ok in switzerland.

More guns per capita, and full auto, the kind no civilian can buy in the US.

[Warren Stupidity]

42. The disinformation is strong with this one.

I would gladly trade a universal militia for our stupidly huge standing army that has bankrupted this coutry.

However, once a member of the Swiss militia has completed his service:

When their period of service has ended, militiamen have the choice of keeping their personal weapon and other selected items of their equipment. In this case of retention, the rifle is sent to the weapons factory where the fully automatic function is removed; the rifle is then returned to the discharged owner. The rifle is then a semi-automatic or self-loading rifle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

The 'everyone has a full auto military class weapon at home' thing is bullshit.

During the militia term of service the weapon must be kept under lock box control with auditing to make sure it is not used outside of its military purpose.

[slackmaster]

23. Straw Man Fallacy

Description of Straw Man

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.
Examples of Straw Man

1. Prof. Jones: "The university just cut our yearly budget by $10,000."
Prof. Smith: "What are we going to do?"
Prof. Brown: "I think we should eliminate one of the teaching assistant positions. That would take care of it."
Prof. Jones: "We could reduce our scheduled raises instead."
Prof. Brown: " I can't understand why you want to bleed us dry like that, Jones."

2. "Senator Jones says that we should not fund the attack submarine program. I disagree entirely. I can't understand why he wants to leave us defenseless like that."

3. Bill and Jill are arguing about cleaning out their closets:
Jill: "We should clean out the closets. They are getting a bit messy."
Bill: "Why, we just went through those closets last year. Do we have to clean them out everyday?"
Jill: "I never said anything about cleaning them out every day. You just want too keep all your junk forever, which is just ridiculous."

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

[sharesunited]

5. Did the presence of guns embolden crime, impair judgment, and result in poor choices?

Yes. The presence of guns did exactly that. And the availability of guns resulted in their presence.

[slackmaster]

24. Willingness to disobey numerous laws contributed to it as well

So did alcohol.

[sharesunited]

30. The influence of those things is reduced to zero. proportionate to the deline in the

availability of the instrument of misconduct.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[friendly_iconoclast]

55. Ah, much as cameras embolden child pornographers? n/t

[rrneck]

44. Prove it. nt

[fascisthunter]

66. the proof is in the article... people shot at each other, that's dumb!

and it wouldn't have happened if they didn't have guns on them.

[pipoman]

77. And they all got there somehow...in cars? No cars, no incident.

They had all been drinking which causes people to do dumb things. No alcohol no incident. They were all swimming. No swimming area, on incident. See the similarities?

[jmondine]

6. Holy crap... I was just at a different State Park in the area yesterday

Along with my whole family. Makes me shudder.

[AtheistCrusader]

14. My cubicle overlooks 2/3 of the park. I go into it 3-5 times a week.

I spotted a poacher fishing in the creek last fall, after 30 minutes trying to call a game warden or park ranger, I gave up and confronted him myself. Fortunately for me, he wasn't looking for a fight.

[sansatman]

8. National Parks Gun Law Takes Effect in February

A new law permitting concealed loaded firearms at National Parks will not take effect until February and the Interior Department will continue to enforce Reagan-era restrictions until then, a spokeswoman said today.

"Under the current regulation, firearms are generally prohibited, but citizens may transport unloaded and dismantled or cased firearms and carry firearms while participating in approved hunting programs and under certain other circumstances," Interior spokeswoman Kendra Barkoff said in a statement released minutes after President Obama signed the credit card holders' bill of rights, which includes an amendment allowing firearms at the nation's National Parks and wildlife refuges.

The department plans to work on implementing the new law in the meantime, focusing especially on public safety and the safety of National Park employees, Barkoff said. Permission to carry a firearm into a park and the actual restrictions on such possession will vary by state, since the new federal law is governed by each state's firearms laws.


http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2009/05/national_parks_gun_law_take_ef.html

[slackmaster]

20. Gang members like the ones who shot at each other in Washington are already carrying guns in parks

Removing the Reagan-era proscription on licensed carriers of concealed weapons carrying weapons in parks won't do any harm.

[AtheistCrusader]

41. State Park anyway, not a National Park.

Was always legal in this state.

[2Design]

10. good thing people are allowed to be armed and dangerous in state and federal parks n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

12. I'm sure gang members would have obeyed the former ordinance against.

:spray:

[slackmaster]

21. I would bet a whole bunch of money that not one of the gang members in Washington had a permit

to carry a concealed weapon, and most of them couldn't qualify for one.

[Warren Stupidity]

31. don't you support abolition of CCW permits?

[AtheistCrusader]

38. Why?

This is a must-issue state, so no, I'm happy with the current state regulation. Pass background check. Pass fingerprint check. Pay fee. Have a nice day.

[slackmaster]

46. No, I don't support that and I've never said any such thing

Where did you get that ridiculous idea, Warren Stupidity?

[MichaelHarris]

11. If the park had

let the NRA set up rental Glock booths none of this would have happened.

[county worker]

18. I do feel sorry for the concealed weapons people. Say you were one and you

were driving around. You drive through a park then go to church, later to a bar. At one place you can carry your gun and at another you can't. I mean think of the inconvenience, on with the gun, then off with the gun, then on with the gun again.

Poor gun rights advocates would have such a tough time, might as well just keep the gun at home! Well, maybe not, you never know when some bad guy that needs shooting might show up.

[slackmaster]

22. It's not a problem for people who carry illegally, like the gang members in the Washington park

They just ignore the law no matter what it says.

[wordpix]

50. so let's just keep those gun show loopholes open so anyone can buy & sell

without registrations or background checks. :sarcasm:

[friendly_iconoclast]

56. $25 to your charity of choice for explaining what a 'gun show loophole' is and why it's a problem

I'd even donate to the Brady Campaign, they're nearly bankrupt and are a great source of laughs...

[wordpix]

60. here you go, and it's no laughing matter Mr. Brady is stuck in a wheelchair for decades

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show

The "Gun Show Loophole"

The term "Gun Show Loophole" refers to laws that allow private individuals "not engaged in the business" of dealing firearms to sell guns at gun shows without conducting background checks on purchasers or maintaining records of sale. The term has been in use since at least 1996, when the Violence Policy Center used it in a published study.<9>

U.S. federal law requires persons engaged in interstate firearm commerce, or those who are "engaged in the business" of dealing firearms, to hold a Federal Firearms License and perform background checks through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System maintained by the FBI prior to transferring a firearm. Under the terms of the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986, however, individuals "not engaged in the business" of dealing firearms, or who only make "occasional" sales within their state of residence, are under no requirement to conduct background checks on purchasers or maintain records of sale (although even private sellers are forbidden under federal law from selling firearms to persons they have reason to believe are felons or otherwise prohibited from purchasing firearms).

Those seeking to close the "Gun Show Loophole" argue that it provides convicted felons and other prohibited purchasers (i.e., domestic abusers, substance abusers, those who have been adjudicated as "mental defectives," etc.) with opportunities to evade background checks, as they can easily buy firearms from private sellers with no accountability or oversight. They also point to a national poll conducted by Mayors Against Illegal Guns that shows that 87% of Americans—and 83% of gun owners—want the loophole closed.<10>

The term "Gun Show Loophole" has been contentious with gun rights advocates, however. They claim there is no "loophole," only a long-standing tradition of free commerce between private parties that heretofore has not been restricted in the context of secondary, intrastate firearm sales.<11><12> Furthermore, they argue that the term "Gun Show Loophole" is misleading, as private firearm sellers are not required to perform background checks regardless of location—whether they are at a gun show, a flea market, their home, or anywhere else. They also challenge federal jurisdiction in intrastate transactions between private parties, which they argue exceeds the federal power created by the Commerce Clause.<13>

In July 2009, Representatives Michael Castle and Carolyn McCarthy introduced the Gun Show Loophole Closing Act of 2009 (H.R. 2324)<14> in the U.S. House of Representatives. Sen. Frank Lautenberg introduced similar legislation, the "Gun Show Background Check Act of 2009"(S. 843), in the U.S. Senate. As of October 2009, the House version of the bill had 35 co-sponsors (mostly Democrats) and the Senate version had 15 co-sponsors, all Democrats.

Presently, 17 states regulate private firearm sales at gun shows on their own. Seven states require background checks on all gun sales at gun shows (California, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Oregon, New York, Illinois and Colorado). Four states (Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun, but not long gun, purchasers at gun shows. Five states require individuals to obtain a permit to purchase handguns that involves a background check (Massachusetts, Michigan, North Carolina, Iowa, Nebraska). Certain counties in Florida require background checks on all private sales of handguns at gun shows. The remaining 33 states do not restrict private, intrastate sales of firearms at gun shows in any manner.<15><16>...more

[slackmaster]

62. Inaccurate. You should know better than to cite Wikipedia as a source.

The term "Gun Show Loophole" refers to laws that allow private individuals "not engaged in the business" of dealing firearms to sell guns at gun shows without conducting background checks on purchasers or maintaining records of sale.

As a federal firearms licensee, I am qualified to tell you that no such federal law exists. Federal law doesn't even have a definition of the term "gun show", therefore it is impossible for there to be any kind of exemption written into it for gun show transactions.

In states where non-commercial private sales of used firearms at gun shows are not regulated, those transactions are legal anywhere, any time (not just at gun shows). Some states like mine (California) regulate private-party transfers. There is no specific state law here that requires gun show transactions to be treated any differently that sales at sporting goods stores.

In July 2009, Representatives Michael Castle and Carolyn McCarthy introduced the Gun Show Loophole Closing Act of 2009 (H.R. 2324)<14> in the U.S. House of Representatives. Sen. Frank Lautenberg introduced similar legislation, the "Gun Show Background Check Act of 2009"(S. 843), in the U.S. Senate.

I suggest that anyone interested in the topic read those bills. Pay particular attention to how they define "gun show", as that is key to how such legislation might be justified as an extension of the federal government's power to regulate interstate commerce. The bills define gun shows in terms of the number of exhibitors and/or the total number of firearms offered for sale.

The obvious unintended consequences of any federal regulation of gun transfers at gun shows would include a proliferation of events that don't qualify as gun shows, and an increase in gun transfers at garage sales, swap meets, and plain old newspaper classified ads. Gun shows have an advantage for law enforcement of concentrating activity in one place, where police can watch for known felons attempting to buy guns (illegally).

[wordpix]

67. this article has lots of valid links/footnotes - your knee-jerk reaction against Wikip is dead wrong

Wikipedia used to not have many links (some articles still don't) so the reader couldn't check on many sources of the information. Here, though, there are 32 valid footnote sources plus numerous other links. Wikipedia is an excellent source of information for most subjects as long as valid sources are cited. These are valid.

I know you probably don't really like to read studies and reports but here are some that are DOCUMENTED in the Wikipedia article by the likes of ATF and the City of New York:

In October 2009, the City of New York released “Gun Show Undercover: Report on Illegal Sales at Gun Shows.”<24> The report details undercover investigations that took place at gun shows in three states—Tennessee, Nevada, and Ohio—between May and August 2009. Private investigators were hired by the Office of NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg to perform sting operations on federally licensed firearm dealers and unlicensed private sellers at 14 different shows in these states. Private investigators posing as purchasers approached 33 unlicensed sellers and told them that they “probably couldn’t pass a background check.” 22 (or 67%) of the private sellers sold a gun to them anyway—in violation of federal law. Additionally, 17 federally licensed dealers at the shows were approached by investigators who simulated a “straw purchase.” In a straw purchase, a prohibited purchaser recruits an individual with a clean criminal record to fill out paperwork, pass the background check, and purchase firearms for him/her. All but one licensed dealer sold investigators a gun in this manner, again despite the fact that it constituted a clear violation of federal law. These illegal transactions were videotaped by investigators.<25> snip

From 2004 to 2006, ATF conducted surveillance and undercover investigations at 195 gun shows (approximately 2% of all shows). Specific targeting of suspected individuals (77%) resulted in 121 individual arrests and 5,345 firearms seizures. Seventy nine of the 121 ATF operation plans were known suspects previously under investigation.<1>

Additionally, ATF Field Offices report that:

* Between 2002 and 2005, more than 400 guns legally purchased at gun shows from licensed dealers in the city of Richmond, Virginia, were later recovered in connection with criminal activity. Bouchard notes that, "These figures do not take into account firearms that may have been sold at Richmond area gun shows by unlicensed sellers, as these transactions are more difficult to track."<3> It is noteworthy that the "in connection with criminal activity" category includes stolen guns later recovered from burglaries, but the report does not specify how many guns in the 400 gun figure cited were not guns used in the commission of a crime, but that were rather the fruits of criminal activity.

* The Department of Justice reports, "after reviewing hundreds of trace reports associated with guns used in crime recovered in the area and interviewing known gang members and other criminals, ATF Special Agents identified area gun shows as a source used by local gang members and other criminals to obtain guns."<1>

* In 2003 and 2004, the San Francisco ATF Field Division conducted six general operations at Reno, Nevada, guns shows to investigate interstate firearms trafficking. During these operations, "agents purchased firearms and identified violations related to "off paper" sales, sales to out-of-state residents, and dealing in firearms without a license." The "ATF seized or purchased 400 firearms before making arrests and executing search warrants, which resulted in the seizure of an additional 600 firearms and the recovery of explosives."<1>

* ATF's Columbus Field Division conducted its anti-trafficking operations based on intelligence from Cleveland police that "many of the guns recovered in high-crime areas of the city had been purchased at local gun shows." Subsequent gun show sting operations resulted in the seizure of "5 guns, one indictment, and two pending indictments for felony possession of a firearm." The state of Ohio is one of the top ten source states for recovered guns used in crime.<1>

* The ATF's Phoenix Field Division reported that "many gun shows attracted large numbers of gang members from Mexico and California. They often bought large quantities of assault weapons and smuggled them into Mexico or transported them to California."<1> Garen Wintemute, a professor at the University of California at Davis, calls Arizona and Texas a "gunrunner's paradise."<26>

[slackmaster]

74. All that gobbledy-gook doesn't change the fact that there is no exception in federal law

For gun show transactions.

[friendly_iconoclast]

76. Spare me your faux outrage. Mr. Brady wasn't shot with a gun from a gun show.

[wordpix]

61. please send that $25 to the Brady Campaign

[friendly_iconoclast]

70. Which will make *me* the biggest contributor to their anti-Starbucks jihad. Heh

I will, of course, reload my Starbucks card to make up for it.

If the pursuit of truth and freedom demands that I support the unregistered, unlicensed sale of overpriced, overroasted coffee, so be it. Extremism in the defense of liberty, and all that...



Now, a few more questions for you, if you would:

1. (A repeat, actually) What gives you the idea the thugs, errr, gangbang-, errr, informal social club members
involved in this got any of their guns at a gun show?

2. What percentage of convicted criminals get their guns at gun shows?

3. Are person-to-person gun sales not at gun shows acceptable?

4. What measures do you propose to make the NICS (instant background check) system available to the public at large, so that
non-FFL holders may be asssured that a prospective purchaser is not prohibited by law?

[wordpix]

71. i don't have time to answer your questions & write a treatise, just send in the $25

:evilgrin: and have a nice day

[friendly_iconoclast]

73. You had time to research and send multiple replies here, however

I suspect that some of the answers aren't quite what you'd like them to be.

[friendly_iconoclast]

78. Done. Here's the confirmation email (suitably munged) from the Brady Bunch

Money well spent, considering how badly gun control has fared since they were founded back in the day.
Feliks Dzherzhinsky would nod with approval at their tactics.

Sorry about the formatting, BTW:

Status: U
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Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 17:22:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: Brady Campaign <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: Brady Campaign <[e-mail]>
To: (friendly_iconoclast)@earthlink.net
Subject: Thank You For Your Donation
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boundary="----=_Part_1152_14202139.1279923755497"
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For images and graphics click here to open this message in your browser:


Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence
-----------------------------
Dear (friendly_iconoclast),

Thank you supporting the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence with your g
ift of $25.00. We are so grateful for your support.

Capitalizing on the seismic shift on Capitol Hill, your Brady Campaign is g=
oing on the offensive to advance our legislative agenda to strengthen U.S. =
gun laws. Americans are looking to us to turn our electoral victories into=
concrete action to get guns out of the hands of criminals.

Thanks to our allies in Congress, the Brady Campaign is moving full steam a=
head with our Campaign Against Illegal Guns, designed to expose and stop th=
e flow of illegal firearms that threatens our families and communities.=20

Working with our congressional allies, we're launching an aggressive offens=
e against the NRA that includes passing a federalAssault Weapons Ban, exten=
ding Brady background checks to all gun sales (especially at gun shows!), a=
nd curtailing large-volume gun sales that supply gun traffickers.=20

Thanks to your generous support, we will have the strength to stand up to t=
he NRA and the reckless gun lobby and enact our life-saving legislation.

By working together, we can create a nation free from gun violence, where a=
ll Americans are safe at home, at school, at work, and in their communities=
.

Sincerely,
Sarah Brady, Chair
Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence

P.S. If you would like to learn more about our Campaign Against Illegal Gun=....

I note they are selling their mailing list, after telling their contributors they wouldn't.
The spam should be ..interesting.

[friendly_iconoclast]

57. And $100 if you can show one of these guns came from a gun show

I mean it. If you are correct, your favorite charity will get $125 from moi.

Are you game?

[Llewlladdwr]

59. Apparently he isn't. NT

[wordpix]

63. there's no information about where the guns came from yet

plus, I didn't say the guns came from a gun show---however, that's where some do come from, since private sellers can sell guns there to prohibited buyers with no background checks needed.

I'm sorry, but to me that's scary. I guess it doesn't matter to you who's walking around buying and selling guns, though, so have a nice day.

[slackmaster]

64. It's illegal under federal law for any person to transfer a gun to a prohibited buyer

That applies everywhere, all the time.

Read and learn:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

[wordpix]

68. well it happens all the time at gun shows, illegal or not. Read the article

[friendly_iconoclast]

72. So 121/195 of +/- 2% is "all the time"? Interesting metric you've got there...

Tell us more!

[slackmaster]

75. People breaking the law is not the same as people exercising a loophole in the law

:dunce:

[AtheistCrusader]

39. Or I can leave it in my car, like Gil Kerlikowske, and provide some thug with a new gun.

[Pavulon]

34. Good thing all you people have left is corpses to hop on

the law of the land and common sense has passed you by.

[wordpix]

69. bwahahahahah

coffee spilled on that one

[Evasporque]

28. the 7 and 9 year olds celebrating birthdays were not hurt....nt

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kgnu_fan]

43. too many gun shooting hero movies...

[rrneck]

45. Tic toc, tic toc until you find an actual mass shooting to flog. nt

[Doctor_J]

47. See - if everyone had had a gun, this wouldn't have happened

- NRA

:rofl:

The gun nuttiness is just as much of a symptom of my country's 3rd worldliness as income disparity, health care rationing, and Hate Radio.

[slackmaster]

48. That's a Straw Man

Description of Straw Man

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.
Examples of Straw Man

1. Prof. Jones: "The university just cut our yearly budget by $10,000."
Prof. Smith: "What are we going to do?"
Prof. Brown: "I think we should eliminate one of the teaching assistant positions. That would take care of it."
Prof. Jones: "We could reduce our scheduled raises instead."
Prof. Brown: " I can't understand why you want to bleed us dry like that, Jones."

2. "Senator Jones says that we should not fund the attack submarine program. I disagree entirely. I can't understand why he wants to leave us defenseless like that."

3. Bill and Jill are arguing about cleaning out their closets:
Jill: "We should clean out the closets. They are getting a bit messy."
Bill: "Why, we just went through those closets last year. Do we have to clean them out everyday?"
Jill: "I never said anything about cleaning them out every day. You just want too keep all your junk forever, which is just ridiculous."

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

I've never seen anyone SERIOUSLY suggest that everyone should have guns.

[Doctor_J]

52. You post this every time and it never gets any more relevant

A straw man is what the gun culture puts forth whenever a school gets shot up. "This was a gun free zone. Otherwise someone would have been able to drop the psycho before he killed anyone". that's a straw man.

I've never seen anyone SERIOUSLY suggest that everyone should have guns.

Heh. Good one. There were at least a 1/2 dozen posts after the NIU spree saying that if a bunch of people in the 120-student lecture hall had been armed, the situation would have been much better. Imagine 6 students scattered throughout the hall opening up in a chaotic room.

It's OK. You have your amendment, and it's safe, despite the NRA's propaganda. Let us know when you and your guns will help us get the others back

[friendly_iconoclast]

53. Well, it *is* relevant, as the NRA doesn't say what you claim they say.

But, maybe you've got a link handy to prove you're right. You do have some evidence to back up what you say, don't you?

[friendly_iconoclast]

54. That phrase, 'straw man'. It does not mean what you think it means

A straw man is what the gun culture puts forth whenever a school gets shot up. "This was a gun free zone. Otherwise someone would have been able to drop the psycho before he killed anyone". that's a straw man.

Are you claiming the three examples cited in post #9 are imaginary?
In case you misplaced the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4470243&mesg_id=4470377

And then we have the 'friendly fire' meme (myth, really), which is often cited- but for some reason no one using it ever gives an example of it happening in real life.

Heh. Good one. There were at least a 1/2 dozen posts after the NIU spree saying that if a bunch of people in the 120-student lecture hall had been armed, the situation would have been much better. Imagine 6 students scattered throughout the hall opening up in a chaotic room.

Feel free to prove me wrong. Frankly, your posts are something of a fire hazard. All that flammable material spread around, y'know..

[friendly_iconoclast]

58. A day and a half later, and no sources for his claims have been given.

Not surprising at all, is it?

[wordpix]

51. but, but---we're the world's only superpower left!

:sarcasm: That's what we're told, anyhoo :crazy:

[fascisthunter]

65. phew... I was afraid they'd fist fight

glad they brought their guns.