Flemish Separatists Win in Belgium

[alp227]

Source: The New York Times

BRUSSELS — The move to break up Belgium gathered momentum Sunday as separatists won an emphatic election victory in Flanders, the prosperous Dutch-speaking half of the fiercely divided nation.

A stunning electoral success for Bart de Wever’s Flemish nationalist party marks a significant new challenge to the fragile unity of a country where tensions between French and Dutch speakers run deep.

Scheduled to take over the rotating presidency of the European Union in less than three weeks, Belgium will now do so with a caretaker administration and facing months of tortuous negotiations to put together a coalition government.

“We are close to the abyss,” said Lieven De Winter, professor of politics at the Université Catholique de Louvain, who described Mr. De Wever’s win as a landslide. “Whether we are five meters or five centimeters away is difficult to say. But Belgians are at a crossroads where they are making a choice on whether they want to live together or not.”

Mr. De Wever claimed victory Sunday, saying he had won around 30 percent of the vote in Flanders, the northern part of the country.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/europe/14belgium.html

[jazzelle]

1. Who wants to separate from who ??

I am obviously not up on this??

[marmar]

3. Flanders (the Flemish or Dutch speaking portion) wants to separate from Wallonia......

...... the French-speaking portion.

[jazzelle]

5. Thank you

I thought i knew all the hot spots in the world.

[Chulanowa]

16. Stupid sexy Flanders

...What, that's not what you meant?

[iandhr]

19. lol

[proteus_lives]

21. Nothing at all! Nothing at all!

That show used to be so good.

[Ian David]

2. I'm on the side of whichever one is making the chocolate. n/t

[marmar]

4. Leonidas chocolates......Yummy

[Dirigo]

6. It Is A Crime To Separate The Creme From The Flem

What a shame to have the creme of the creme with the French being separated by the Flemish which really has no class and would be happier with this huge deficit to go it alone! Just foolish. They should stay together and strengthen the country. They can learn French if they try.

[jazzelle]

7. I'm confused...

which group is being oppressed ?

[naaman fletcher]

15. The Flemish are the oppressed.

The Walloons have spent much of the last century trying to stamp out Flemish language and culture. Their is no basis for the country other than various euorpean imperialists trampling all over the place and then sitting down with a map and a pencil to create Belgium. Let the
split.

[iandhr]

18. but the article says

Wallonia is less prosperous the article says. So how have the the Walloons repressed the Flemish and tried to stamp out there language and there culture?

I am not criticizing the argument. I am asking I do not know

Whats wrong with the current system of Autonomy for both Flanders and Wallonia and sharing in the responsibility in areas such as Foreign Policy and Defense

[naaman fletcher]

22. Yes,

Flanders has pulled away economically, but for most of Belgiums existnce the Walloons were in control. You ask why not status quo. I ask why? I am always for people who want to form their own government so long as the reason for doing so is not to oppress a minority.

[iandhr]

24. but if I understand correctly

The regional government of Flanders already has a lot of power.

[Dappleganger]

26. They do now and the tables have completely turned since WWII.

There are several sides to these issues. It seems a minority yet very vocal Flemish group of extreme nationalists no longer want to continue sending a high amount of their tax money to the Walloons, who at this point in time are on the receiving end of things and not economically advantaged as their northern neighbors. There are many, many Belgians who do NOT want separation but there were no anti-secession political groups to vote for so that doesn't help at all.

My guess is that if there is separation there will be a HUGE migration into the new Flemish state and it will completely overwhelm them and they will wish that the separation had never occurred.

[iandhr]

30. can you tell me

how Walllons have oppressed the Flemish

[jazzelle]

39. In that case...

Freedom for the oppressed Flemish against the walloon imperialism.


thank you for setting me straight.

[iandhr]

20. don't forget the beer.

[Taverner]

8. Does that mean you can't get a Flemish Sour at the same place you could get a Poorter?

[philly_bob]

9. This is a big deal, especially with the EU presidency coming.

I'm no expert on this long-standing ethnic dispute, it's basically two different language groups, I believe.

Here's the Wikipedia article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium

And please, DUers, don't act like George Bush: "We're Americans, we don't have to know about the rest of the world, we're not even curious, all I need to know about Belgium is chocolate."

[here_is_to_hope]

37. I have some friends here from Belgium, they

actually complimented DU for having an interest in these elections. They were surprised at this thread!

[bikebloke]

10. Belgium is already small.

I've pedalled a loaded bike across it twice. And it took a day and a half. If there's a break up, then it'll be even quicker to cross Vlanders and Walloon.

[DavidDvorkin]

11. Headed toward a Europe of the Regions

If the EU persists and the central government grows stronger, then the larger unions within it become less necessary. Germany, the UK, France, Italy, all of them could eventually break up.

I wonder how small the individual units will be, in time.

[NutmegYankee]

13. I think nationalism will still prevail in those countries.

[proteus_lives]

23. Back to the a modern Holy Roman Empire...

Burgundy, Flanders, Venice and Prussia?

There are also a hundred or so I didn't mention.

[Dappleganger]

27. True, but Belgium is doing it more quickly than the EU is prepared to have it.

Eventually, this will probably occur over time and they will pool their resources into a more centralized EU but it's not going to happen at the same rate as Belgium's possible split.

[xchrom]

12. shrug -- i'm a big believer in the right of self determination.

that right -- and btw, the u.s. configured itself differently - should be be listened to and given a place at the the table.

i doubt if belgium will spilt -- but i think their political structure could change.

[MellowDem]

14. Many Europeans are very provincial...

I know that Americans are often criticized for their xenophobia, but then again, much of Europe has never went through the crazy population upheavels and shifts that America has. And when big immigrant groups are introduced, the result isn't any better really. At least the US doesn't have such a significant portion of the population that wants to break away as to make it a political reality. This is 2010, right? Guess nationalism ain't dead in Europe. Or culturalism or what have you.

[Cartoonist]

17. Nationalism isn't dead anywhere

Many in Hawaii want their Independence back. So does Tibet. Everywhere there is an ethnic group, they want to be independent. I can sympathize with them, but I think unity is better. Borders create wars, and nationalism is just another word for racism. I always get a kick out of science-fiction where the inhabitants of a planet all belong to the same group. We won't have peace on Earth until it happens here. Belgium isn't helping things.

[Dappleganger]

28. Trust me, we learned this VERY quickly firsthand with our European exchange students.

The rules are for this group that you cannot house more than one student from each country, so when we had multiple students it was always from one of each: Spain, French, Germany and Italy. After a week of niceties you could begin to see the nationalism creep up very quickly. Boys especially are so competitive anyway, mix that with teenage hormones and you can wake up to some very animated conversations in the morning, LOL!

[Kringle]

25. welcome news .nt

[Dappleganger]

29. Would you mind explaining your answer?

I am reading/hearing it's a mixed bag from both sides of the equation (and I really think there are more than two sides, if that makes sense). My only interest is my husband has traveled there for work on multiple occasions so no personal issues for me are involved.

[Kringle]

31. the Walloons are oppressed ,nt

[Dappleganger]

32. Your answer is quite incomplete...

you've not told me anything new.

[Kringle]

36. the north pays more than its share of tax, because it is richer

than the south, and wants to split up.
..........................................


the poor south feels financially oppressed
because it is poor, and wants to split up

[RainDog]

45. there's a long history behind the current situation

belgian mad cow knows it better than I do, I'm sure.

Belgium was part of everyone's empire - Spanish, Austrian, French - when France became a great empire under Napoleon, French was the language of empire - even in Russia people spoke French b/c it was the language of diplomacy - just as English is now b/c of the U.S. Belgium was just a little bit of that empire. They resented France and wanted autonomy.

The Flemish-speaking Belgians were looked down upon by the aristocrats in Brussels. The Flemish language was called the language of farmers and peasants (boeren). With the rise in nationalism after the French Revolution and various other workers' uprisings, various places declared their independence - like Italy. Belgium was also one of those places. Belgium became the current Belgium because the Flemish and Walloons shared a common religion, tho not a common language.

Wallonia was a huge industrial center with coal mines in the mountains and lots of heavy industry. When their industrial base was strong, Wallonia was richer than Flanders. The Flemish again thought they were treated as second-class citizens b/c the northern region of Belgium did not have the natural resources - the river silted up long ago in Bruges, moving industry to Antwerp, but all the religious wars across Europe had favored The Netherlands because they had taken a neutral stance and traded with England (while publishing illegal religious and political tracts that were smuggled back into the UK.)

In WWI and II, Belgium was the stomping grounds for everyone's army. People suffered under occupation - and as the U.S. and other nations tried to develop ways to deal with intra-national problems, Belgium positioned itself as a meeting point - after all, the armies always made their ways in the continuous wars b/t Germany and France, for instance - and Belgium was neither of those places.

As heavy industry gradually lost its prominence, Wallonia lost more of its economic power. The Flemish wanted people in Wallonia to learn to speak Flemish as well as French in schools. The Flemish claim this didn't happen, while they accommodated the French-speakers in their country. Again, old grudges play into the sense of division. Anyway, in the 1960s, the Flemish demanded Flemish-language universities in Flemish areas - and threw the French out of the oldest and most prestigious university there - in Leuven/Louvain.

Language as culture is SUCH a divisive issue there that the nation has laws that state each region of the nation must have equal representation based upon language. This gets tricky around Brussels because so many retain the practice of speaking French even if they're native Flemish speakers - these people are sometimes derisively called "Brusselaires" by Flemish speakers. Flemish speakers think they're putting on "airs" and acting as tho Flemish isn't as important or interesting, etc. etc. etc... anyway, from what I heard, the current govt failed b/c the p.m. couldn't work out problems with the divisions based upon language in areas around Brussels - couldn't divide the political/language groups to satisfy the law that states such divisions are required.

So the govt fell in April.

I don't think the people in the nation, for the most part, care so much about the divisions - they want to insure cultural respect but want to live together - but the politicians cannot seem to find a way to work out the problems b/c they all have vested interests in keeping areas part of the Flemish or French language/political divides.

[jazzelle]

40. Very confusing.....

i didnt know that.

[Hawkowl]

33. PHLEGMS VOTE FOR EXPECTORATION!

Ha!

[earcandle]

34. Tribalism is primative with all of its trappings and little to offer the common good.

this song is not about being hypnotized.

The Hypnotist

[Kringle]

35. see this link, for an example

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4425083

[Libertas1776]

38. hmm, will seperation from each other be as dramatic

as separation from the Netherlands?



Quick! Someone start painting.

[izquierdista]

41. They're both screwed

If Belgium were to break up, nothing will stop the Manifest Destiny of Luxembourg to march to the sea!

[jazzelle]

42. Thats interesting

i hope not.

[14thColony]

46. I've been sowing the seeds of this for some time

with my Luxembourgish girlfriend and her friends. "Invade Belgium and take back the Province de Luxembourg; they'll NEVER see that one coming!" It appears Luxembourg's moment is here!

[BelgianMadCow]

43. And I voted for them. They are NOT separatists and we do NOT hate the walloons

nationalists, yes. And for more self-governance.

This country has been in a total deadlock for three whole years, on the federal (belgian) level. The french speaking politicians have used every trick in the book and then some to stall any kind of progress towards confederalism, and have repeatedly basically thumbed their noses at us.

The flemish, who do represent the majority (6 vs 4 million) and are the strongest (atm!) economically have strived for more self-governance since the seventies. French elite had dominated this country since it's conception.

When the last government, headed by a flemish centrist, who made significant compromises in an ultimate bid to resolve a dispute about an election district, fell over, there was a huge feeling of "enough is enough" over here in Flanders.

This doesn't mean we want the country to fall apart. Hell, we are tiny as it is, and the average walloon has zero problems with us and vice versa. It does mean we want WORKING structures on the federal level that are not held hostage by the french-speaking politicians.


As a socialist and green voter, it wasn't obvious for me to vote for this rather centrist-right party (note: our right is obviously to your left). But it really is my feeling the deadlock is keeping us from progress, and they really pushed us a step too far.

What happens now, is gonna be very interesting. For starters, the King, who starts "consultations" in order to appoint someone who will try to form a coalition government, has just received Bart de Wever - whose stated goal it is to abolish the monarchy or reduce it to a symbolic function :-)

In Wallonia, the Parti Socialiste won big. Their leader, Elio Di Rupo (son of an italian immigrant) said "the flemish voter has spoken very clearly, and in the interest of the stability of the country, we need to listen"
Bart De Wever has said he wants evolution not revolution, and also that he doesn't see why a coalition between his party and the Socialists would be impossible - that is already the makeup of the flemish level government atm.

So it's not like we're at the brink of civil war...

In for me the most telling moment, Bart De Wever said: "if giving the prime minister post to a french-speaking politician helps to overcome the mistrust (obviously, they do fear his intentions - and he left the "nuclear" option open) then I will do it with a smile". A huge offer from the largest party in belgium now, and a brilliant way to counter "separatist"-demonization which has been going on (and which is why I posted).

So the formation of a (hold on to your hats) NVA (New Flemish Alliance) - SPa (flemish Socialist Party) - CD&V (flemish Christian Democratic) - PS (walloon Parti Socialiste) - CdH (walloon Christian democrats) - Ecolo (walloon Green Party is the option considered most likely, and I really hope De Wever and Di Rupo bridge the pretty large gap bewteen them and form an historic government.

A final, sad note, illustrative of the risks involved - the number 2 of the PS has already said the offer the post of prime minister will not be a reason to put water in their wine w/rgds to the negotiations.

WHAT are you saying? That the prime minister post has NO value in a negotiation? And this in reaction to such a magnanimous offer. Sigh.
If the french speaking politicians decide to block progress again, I fear for this country.

Bart De Wever's first words yesterday:

"nihil volentibus arduum - nothing is too difficult for those who want"

Let's hope there is enough want...

[AngryAmish]

44. Stupid Flanders