Riot breaks out in downtown Santa Cruz; windows broken on dozens of businesses

[Newsjock]

Source: Santa Cruz Sentinel

Full headline (doesn't fit in Title field): Riot breaks out in downtown Santa Cruz; windows broken on dozens of businesses, porch of cafe set on fire

SANTA CRUZ - A group of protesters demonstrating at a May Day rally for worker's and immigrant rights downtown broke off into a riot vandalizing about a dozen businesses around 10:30 p.m. Saturday, police said.

Windows were left shattered and graffiti including anarchy signs were tagged onto buildings. The Rittenhouse Building, Urban Outfitters, Jamba Juice and Velvet Underground all had windows broken, according to Capt. Steve Clark.

Santa Cruz police asked for help from all agencies in the county to break up the riot. At one point, protesters lit a fire on the porch of Caffe Pergolesi and blocked access to firefighters, officers said. Police were able to clear out the demonstrators before more damage was caused.

A large rock sat outside Verizon Wireless on the 100 block of Cooper Street, where vandals tried to break the window twice, according to Clark.

"The damage that was caused was without purpose," Clark said. "It was senseless violence that victimized a community who cannot afford to be victimized in this manner. This did nothing to add credit to whatever they believed their cause was."

Read more: http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/localnews/ci_14998618

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. Minutemen?

[petronius]

15. More likely a bunch of tools who think smashing things up is a good way to make a point

There are fools who think, just because it's sometimes appropriate to disrupt or break the law or even destroy things, that it is always a good idea to behave like thugs...

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. Sounds like Minutemen to me

[Lagomorph]

115. OK, show me the pattern of behavior...

I'd like to see your logical leap in detail.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. dupe

[Taverner]

148. Santa Cruz Anarchists

As an ex resident, let me say they do exist, and are outside of ideology, intelligence and the social contract

They aren't your Emma Goldman Anarchists either

But the 'destroy it all' types

[bemildred]

2. They were having a May Day rally at 10:30 PM?

Who writes this crap?

[dkf]

5. How would you prefer they write it?

[bemildred]

6. Coherently, so it makes sense. nt

[dkf]

8. Supporters of Illegal immigration riot.

How's bout that?

[bemildred]

12. Freedom's untidy.

-- D. Rumsfeld

[CreekDog]

27. wow...are you at the right website?

:wtf:

and it wasn't an immigration or "illegal immigration" riot.

[amandabeech]

30. Bemildred is definitely at the right website.

Check out Bemildred's posts on any number of international issues--they're great!

As to consistency in the article. Demonstrations in the U.S. generally take place in daylight, not at 10:30 pm.

This demonstrations sounds more like a few folks out on some sort of "hell night" like rampage by who knows whom.

[CreekDog]

32. then why did she write "supporters of illegal immigration riot"

does that sound like a good post, or even a truthful one?

as for her other posts, were the good ones defending the new Arizona law?

[No Elephants]

117. Bemildred did not write that. DKF did. You responded to dkf.

[CreekDog]

125. Yeah I couldn't tell why the poster thought I was referring to bemildred

:shrug:

[No Elephants]

118. Creek Dog responded to dkf, not to bemildred.

[EFerrari]

39. I hope you don't break your neck making these leaps. lol

[HereSince1628]

3. What is an anarchy symbol?

:shrug: :think: time to google1

[paulsby]

78. i'll give you a hint

there is a prominent "A" in the symbol

we see this all the time with (especially) oregon based anarchist fuckmunches

[HereSince1628]

100. I've never seen such a thing. Around here there are lot of gang tags

but no anarchisms signs. I guess even our criminal element believes in government.

Counter-culture in Wisconsin refers to non-pasteurized yogurt,

[paulsby]

111. lol. eugene oregon

is pretty much the epicenter of activity for these guys.

so, we see them a lot in the pac NW.

[mdmc]

149. hehehe

:)

[HereSince1628]

4. Sorry, double dribbled

[Crowman1979]

7. Here is the raw footage of this protest.

To me it looked like either some random anarchists not from the area or police infiltrators. Plus they were all in black hoodies and wearing scarves over there faces. While the majority was moving along and a few from that march were trying to stop them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU35sV4i3TA

I'll post this in the video section.

[dkf]

9. Sounds like a gang?

[Crowman1979]

10. Or wankstas living on mommy & daddy's income.

[treestar]

21. Due to the bad market for jobs for young people, who are mostly Democrats

I would ask for a moratorium on this tired and trite old insult.

[bhikkhu]

40. Santa Cruz is a vacation town with strict anti-growth laws

the job market there has always been a different thing from most places. Young people grow up expecting to move away to work.

[No Elephants]

120. Agree that DU should be stereotype free, but nothing indicates these thugs are Democrats.

I know you were not suggesting that, but I just want to underscore that.

And, even if they were Democrats, gang behavior = no respect due.

But your point is solid: Ageism, whether versus the young or versus the old, is as bad as any other form of bigotry.

[dkf]

13. Apparently it's called a "black bloc" and it is a method of protesting seen around the world.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc?wasRedirected=true

A black bloc is a tactic for protests and marches, whereby individuals wear black clothing, ski masks and motorcycle helmets with padding and often carrying their own shields and truncheons.<1> The clothing is used to avoid being identified, and to theoretically, appear as one large mass, promoting solidarity, and creating a clear revolutionary presence.

The tactic was developed in the 1980s by anti-nuclear activist autonomists.<1> Black blocs gained broader media attention outside Europe during the 1999 anti-WTO demonstrations, when a black bloc damaged property of GAP, Starbucks, Old Navy, and other retail locations in downtown Seattle.<1>

[Crowman1979]

14. Well their just making themselves look like assholes and smear the reputation everyone else.

[dkf]

17. Looks like it's the left that has a history of black blocing. That is just great.

The first recorded use of the tactic in United States of America was in 1989 at a protest at the Pentagon. Other early use in the US were the Earth Day Wall Street Action in 1990 and the February 1991 protests against the Gulf War. These were initiated by Love and Rage, a North American revolutionary anarchist organization active in New York. Black blocs gained significant media attention when a black bloc caused damage to property of GAP, Starbucks, Old Navy, and other retail locations in downtown Seattle during the 1999 anti-WTO demonstrations<8>. They were a common feature of subsequent anti-globalization protests.<9>

Other groups that have engaged in similar forms of action include Radical Anti-Capitalist Blocs, Anti-Racist Action, and Anti-Fascist Action.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc?wasRedirected=true

[No Elephants]

121. Anarchists are an extremeist fringe, not "the left."

Besides, regardless of the history, the OP is about thugs, not the left or the right. And "the left" has no corner on access to black clothing.

So not buying it.

[Jkid]

16. Are these black bloc's seperate from the main movement?

It seems to me they're more like the equivalent of black ops for protest groups unless completely separate.

[dkf]

20. See my post 17. I guess anti capitalist, anti racist and anti Nazi groups use this tactic.

Is that within the movement or not? I have no idea. Scary thing is they look more organized than the rest of the movement.

[CreekDog]

28. you said "illegal immigration" riot before

which is it?

i mean your story is shifting.

[dkf]

58. I learned a lot more but advocating for illegal immigration is anarchy.

v • d • e
Anarchy (from Greek: ἀναρχίᾱ anarchíā, "without ruler") may refer to any of the following:

"No rulership or enforced authority."<1>
"Absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to the absence or inefficiency of the supreme power; political disorder."<2>
"A social state in which there is no governing person or group of people, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder)."<3>
"Absence or non-recognition of authority and order in any given sphere."<4>
"Acting without waiting for instructions or official permission... The root of anarchism is the single impulse to do it yourself: everything else follows from this." <5>

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy?wasRedirected=true

[No Elephants]

122. Not if advocacy consists solely of speech.

[dkf]

22. This is interesting...apparently black blocs are used to protest a repressive police state.

A black bloc is a collection of anarchists and anarchist affinity groups that organize together for a particular protest action.The flavor of the blackbloc changes from action to action, but the main goals are to provide solidarity in the face of a repressive police state and to convey an anarchist critique of whatever is being protested that day.


http://www.infoshop.org/page/Black-Blocs-for-Dummies

[No Elephants]

124. Please see Reply 26 and 86. And again, EVERYone has access to black clothing.

I would not draw any conclusions about ideology based on the fact that some lawbreakers were black. They could be anything from law enforcement to garden variety vandals.

[Downtown Hound]

26. A black bloc isn't a group or an organization you belong to

It's a tactic used by like minded protesters, who identify each other by their black dress and face masks concealing their identity. They employ aggressive and sometimes destructive protest tactics that include breaking away from the designated, permitted protest route and marching through the city, confrontation with police, and destruction of corporate and chain store property, which usually manifests itself as breaking windows and graffiti. They also like to create makeshift street barricades comprised of news stands and garbage dumpsters, slowing down police cruisers in the process.

Black Blocs have played prominent roles in major recent American protests, notably the RNC in St. Paul in 2008 when they smashed the window of bank and a Macy's, as well as those of a few parked cop cars, the G20 protests in Pittsburg, and the Battle of Seattle in 1999 when they smashed corporate window store fronts.

In recent years, it has been revealed that sometimes black blocs are in fact undercover police provocateurs attempting to incite violence so as to break up the demonstration. But sometimes they are legitimate anarchists that are waging what they see as resistance to the excesses and injustices of the capitalist state.

[Truth2Tell]

106. +1 Most accurate post in this thread. nt

[TorchTheWitch]

86. Black Bloc thugs

They like to pretend they're anarchists but most couldn't tell you what an anarchist is. Most of them are just kids that like to destroy stuff and create general mayhem in a situation where they are unlikely to be caught. They show up at every protest or demonstration regardless of what it is for just to get their vandalism/mayhem jollies.

[Scuba]

87. Obvious Red Herring... Donald Segretti would be embarrassed

[SpiralHawk]

90. Ahhh, the Black Ops Commandos (R)

Agents provocateurs

[Xithras]

136. UC Santa Cruz does have a homegrown anarchist movement.

I've always found a bit of humor in the irony of a bunch of "smash the state" screaming anarchists attending a state-funded school. Way to live your values guys!

[FLyellowdog]

11. Same thing happened in Asheville, NC.

Not a good thing.

http://www.citizen-times.com/article/20100502/NEWS01/100501022

[dkf]

23. How do you get so radicalized at such a young age?

Yikes.

I could have cared less about most things back in my younger days.

[pattmarty]

25. I won't speculate on this group, but jail does a super job of radicalization.

[FLyellowdog]

55. Good question.nt

[No Elephants]

126. You've never heard of college-age kids being activist?

Again, though, you are making assumptions about this group that may or may not be the reality.

[mmonk]

94. All quite young.

Anarchists I would say.

[Fire1]

24. This is just the beginning. Wait til summer!! n/t

[customerserviceguy]

29. I recall the summers

of 1965, '66, '67 and '68. They led to the election of the "law and order" candidate, Richard Nixon, who still managed to win with George Wallace bleeding off the most racist elements of the electorate.

This isn't good for our side. The people of Santa Cruz, CA had nothing to do with what happened in Arizona.

[amandabeech]

31. Yes, let's try to avoid the annual summer riots that we had in the '60s.

They helped nothing and led to Nixon.

We don't want riots to lead to Palin in 2012.

[Fire1]

34. Wake up! This "riot" had nothing to do with Az. n/t

[customerserviceguy]

74. I guess I just saw the phrase "immigrant rights"

and drew a conclusion. I wonder how many other Americans are going to make the same connection.

[Fire1]

88. And many are going to make the same connection I did.

Just like some on this thread.

[No Elephants]

127. This is not "our side." Democrats are not on the side of lawbreaking or anarchy.

[No Elephants]

128. It was more than just riots. It was drugs. It was treating young soldiers as though the war was

their idea. It was the attitude of rebellion against and estrangement from "The Greatest Generation." It was a lot of things.

[Techn0Girl]

33. This Doesn't make sense at all ....

I live in Santa Cruz. Caffe Pergolesi is a great left-wing hang out, gathering place and coffee shop that has been here for 15+ years. They are far left and cater to a very eclectic clientelle but more importantly make the best damn coffees you will ever want to have. They hire poor students , musicians and and a lot of characters (all of which have no attitude) of various ethnicities.

It makes no sense at all why some alleged left wing movement would want to set it on fire.
Police and/or FBI undercover agents would be far more believable

[musette_sf]

35. + 1

Police, or, more likely, other black ops (could be Feds but probably teabaggers and/or militia types) provocateurs targeting a predominately LW area, to gin up a "violent LW" meme.

:puke:

Also see: redneck-rigged Times Square SUV.

Looks like the black ops by baggers/redneck militia types has begun in earnest.

[Techn0Girl]

38. I've been in the military....

and my impression of the people in black is that they acted as a unit. Teabaggers and those idiot militia types only pretend to do such things but are laughably bad at them. I believe these people were trained professionals - just my take upon watching the footage.

[musette_sf]

42. If you are correct

then it looks like we now (or, again, I should say) have CheneyCo black ops to contend with, along with the teahadists.

:scared:

[AlphaCentauri]

44. I notice also how synchronize they were

and how they run and cover each other

[paulsby]

80. black bloc anarchists ARE trained ... very well trained

ironically, enough - for anarchists, - they are VERY organized when it comes to tactics. this is no top secret piece of info and i've read dozens of intel reports. they create training videos, conduct training camps, etc.

[EFerrari]

37. Yep. n/t

[Lucky Luciano]

45. sounds fishy...yes...anarchists would more likely focus

on corporate death coffee like Starbucks I would think. :shrug:

[Crowman1979]

61. Exactly

[paulsby]

79. you clearly don't understand anarchists

they often hate "liberals" as much as anybody

they view them as unwilling to do what is really necessary to change society, and are just a bunch of cafe leftists sitting around and spending their money in "sympathetic" businesses

you think the anarchists go "oh, they give money to democratic causes, i won't bomb them?"

you have NO understandings of the anarchists contempt for conventional society, and yes that includes liberals

anarchists feel the same away about society liberals as liberals do about DLC dems

hth

[No Elephants]

129. First, Techn0girl said nothing about liberals. She said "far left."

I don't know what her idea of far left is. However, in reality, far left is Communist, not liberal Democrat.. A little less far left is Socialist, not liberal Democrat. After that, come varying degrees of liberals.

So, I don't know why you would read "far left" and leap to the conclusion that she meant liberal Democrats. Frankly, the only people I hear describing Democrats of any stripe as "far left" or "hard left" tend to be bunched up around Mitch McConnell.

As far as anarchists feeling about liberals as liberals feel about DLCers, that is bs.

Contrary to what I've seen some drama kings and queens post here, by and large, liberals are NOT haters. Nor are they believers or doers of violence. I simply cannot imagine a group of liberals feeling so hateful toward DLCers as to set fire to a business and keeping firefighters from getting to it, simply bc the business owner were DLC.

Liberals and DLCers disagree on some issues. Anarchists, however, are not simply to the left of liberals as liberals are to the left of DLC. Anarchists are a whole different breed from Democrats, whether center right or center left. Even extreme left.

Anarchists have a whole different idea from all Democrats of how society should operate--or not operate. And anarchists also have a whole different idea from all Democrats of the methods by which society is going to get from where it is now to where anarchists want it.

Your analogy is not accurate at all. But it might say a lot about your false ideas about liberals and their feelings.

[Xithras]

139. Indeed. I was very involved with some in the early 90's.

During my "chain myself to trees" days, I had the misfortune to spend a bunch of time with a bunch of them (lots of my family lives in Oregon, where they're common as flies as well...my sister dated a card-burning UO anarchist for years). Anyone who thinks that anarchists are left-wingers and ideological "allies" of the Dems and Greens is an uneducated fool. Anarchists will tell you flat out that Democrats are just as evil and right wing as Republicans, and I used to regularly hear people call for the overthrow of the Clinton government. As a tree-hugging Green, I was "tolerated" by them, but I saw a poor girl identify herself as a Democrat once (at a rally), and she was verbally assaulted and spit on by several anarchists. They hate Democrats. In their worldview, Greens are moderates, Democrats are conservatives, and Republicans are genuine Nazi's.

The anarchist ideal calls for the total destruction of the national state, and even the state state, and its replacement with purely local "governments" that are nothing more than mob rule, employee ownership of all production (no managers even), no government authority, no private property. The best description I ever heard was this: Imagine a purely communist state, only without government, military, police. They even want to abolish money, and return to a direct barter based economy (trade the fruits of your labor with the fruits of another, and cut out the middle man). That's what they're striving for. I've never heard an anarchist explain, exactly, what they want to do with the elderly, infirm, injured, and those incapable of producing anything. The one time I did get one to address the question, he mumblingly mentioned "Mutual Aid", where the have's will simply be kind and "give" things to the have-nots. Yeah...because history has shown how brilliantly that concept works.

[Downtown Hound]

146. "Mutual aid" is the anarchist cop out phrase for questions like that

It's the equivalent of a Republican who says that the "invisible hand" of the free market will prevent exploitation and abuse. You know, those ones that say people will be motivated by self interest to do the right thing. It's a pile of shit, as we've seen from Republicans.

I do respect the dedication of many anarchists and some of the ideology that they espouse. A world with no borders? Sounds pretty groovy to me. Employee ownership of production? Not too bad, in my opinion. Absence of the state and its constant war drum beat and mindless jingoism and destruction? AWESOME!

But I have a hard time believing that a movement that can't even find common ground with liberal Democrats and views many well-intentioned, good people as being tyrants or conservatives is really going to be motivated to bring meals and medicine to sick people and do things like clean the shit out of their bedpans. No, I have a hunch that "those people" wouldn't matter all that much in an anarchist world.

There's an inherent freedom-loving streak in anarchist thought. There's also an inherent selfishness too, as there always is in ideologies that espouse extreme individualism.

I would also like to hear how anarchists plan to settle disputes over natural resources. One of the things I've never heard them address is how they decide just who gets what. There's a limited amount of space on Earth, lots of people, and limited resources. Just how do they plan on divvying it all up? I realize anarchists don't believe in private property as we understand it. So how does this actually work in practice?

[psychopomp]

102. They rented out the second floor of the coffee shop

My girlfriend lived up there with some musicians--geez--almost twenty years ago. It was a very mellow place to be. That coffee shop has been there for at least twenty years.

[Techn0Girl]

36. I just looked at the raw footage linked to here:

Out of what appeared to be a coupe hundred marchers there were 15-20 organized individuals - acting as a unit with face masks and devices for breaking windows (rocks, bats, etc).

The individuals doing the destruction had an agenda and they knew how to strike and then immediately go back into the march and blend in.

My bet is on police or govt infiltrators trying to discredit the march. FBI and police in various cities have been documented doing this before.

If I were organizing a march I would have the participants forcibly eject anyone who had their face covered in a mask and/or anyone who appeared to be carrying weapons. In this case the devices used to break windows appeared to be hidden in backpacks (which are carried by nearly everyone here in S.C.)

The poeple who did this were organized as a group - at one point in the footage they appear to come together to beat up a marcher who tries to subdue one of them who is trying to break a window. The were organized and they knew how to disappear into a group - they were trained by some agency.

[musette_sf]

43. Xe eom

[bemildred]

46. Never do what your friendly FBI plant suggests.

"Hey, let's attack the police station!!"

[EFerrari]

48. Can you show me where the link is?

I can't find it for some reason.

[AlphaCentauri]

51. Post #7

[EFerrari]

52. Thank you. n/t

[Downtown Hound]

50. Just so you know...

The tactic of "hit and run" in which a particular black blocker will strike at at say, a corporate window for example, and then disappear back into the crowd, is in fact a time honored and well developed black bloc technique. It's part of their playbook actually, and one of the main reasons why they are often as successful as they are in carrying out their direct actions even when there is an overwhelming police presence around. Sometimes, black blockers will even have a single member of their group go out and carry out a direct action, and then disappear back into the black bloc itself. Since all of them are dressed in black, it's often damn near impossible to figure out just who it was that carried out the illegal act when they disappear back into a sea of black.

I'm not saying these particular folks weren't provocateurs. As you say, their choice of target in this instance is very suspicious. Normally the black bloc likes to strike at targets such as banks and chain stores. I've never heard of them hitting independent coffee shops before. So that's a major red flag right there, and almost sounds like an effort to alienate fellow leftists.

But their tactics? Nope. Anybody that's chosen the black bloc tactic as a method of protest would already be aware of how they operate, and disappearing back into the crowd is one of their standard plays.

[bemildred]

54. That is interesting.

I would not think that wearing the distinctive costumes would help them blend in. It makes them easy to see and easy to follow. I would think if you wanted to jump in and out you would dress like everyone else. You would wear the fancy costumes if you wanted to attract attention.

[Downtown Hound]

56. You have to factor in context

Most black bloc activity happens in so-called breakaway marches, in which a certain section of a permitted protest march will suddenly break off and move through the city. At that point, the march is considerd an illegal march in the eyes of the law, but it's still only civil disobedience at this point.

Now a breakway march will often have black blocs in them but they will also have other protesters as well that are normally dressed. All of the protesters there though, are engaged in some form of illegal activity, it's just that most of them aren't doing anything more than committing a misdemeanor. And the truth is, technically it's not illegal until the police get on the loudhorn and declare it to be so, and instruct you to leave or face arrest.

Nevertheless, protesters engaged in what will almost certainly become a confrontation with police will be more likely to shield each other and protect each other from law enforcement, even if most of the protesters there don't engage in property destruction or even support such acts. It becomes an "us vs. the state" thing. This particular incident in Santa Cruz is unique, because it didn't happen at a breakaway march. That makes it an exception, not the general rule.

And secondly, you have to factor in that you're watching this all on a camera. When you're actually there, on the ground, in a crowd full of people, your vision is quite limited. You may see groups of people in black and masks, but many of them may be doing nothing. Only a small percentage of those that dress up in black actually engage in property destruction. Most do not.

So you see somebody in black go running by, and before you know it they're out of your field of vision, blocked by 20 other people. All you saw was somebody in black run by for a brief 10 seconds. From you perspective on the ground, that really wouldn't be all that significant.

It's easier to hide in a crowd than you think.

[bemildred]

66. But why dress up if you don't want to draw attention to yourself?

It is obvious it's for dramatic effect, to make sure they are noticed as widely as possible.

[No Elephants]

131. The black gear is distinct from the garb of the other marchers. But one all black outfit

and ski mask is not readily distinguished from the other black outfits. They don't stand out from each other in any way.

So, if you are marching with your colleagues in black, you can leap out of the bunch of black outfits and then jump back into the bunch. No one knows which black outfit wearing person comitted the act of vandalism or violence. So, no one knows whom to arrest.

[bemildred]

147. Black outfits are not what most people wear? Black outfits are all similar?

The point is they stand out. They are noticeable. That means the wearers want to be noticed. Hello?

[paulsby]

84. exactly

i've studied a lot of intel on these fuckmunches

this is HOW THEY OPERATE

as usual the DU ignorati combine their lack of knowledge, with their bias (no left winger COULD EVER do something like this) and cognitive dissonance kicks in
these are TEXTBOOK black bloc tactics in this case.

[No Elephants]

132. The DU ignorati? .

[No Elephants]

130. Liberals are not "fellow leftists" to anarchists, ffs.

:wtf:

[Downtown Hound]

145. Okay..."other leftists?"

or how about just "alienate liberals?"

Better now?

[paulsby]

82. get a clue

anarchists (eugene ore based for instance) are well renowned for such tactics.

they TRAIN. they go to camps. they produce videos, etc.

[SpiralHawk]

91. And they are right-wing agents provocateurs pretending to be leftists

D'oh

[paulsby]

92. your evidence for this is what?

speculation is not evidence

sure, they could be

but there is no evidence they are

and their tactics are SPOT ON with conventional black bloc crap

[AlphaCentauri]

105. Their tactics can be seen in this link

Provocateur Cops Caught Disguised As Anarchists At G20

Shocking video has emerged of cops posing as anarchist protesters at the G20 Summit in Pittsburgh, in yet another example of authorities attempting to provoke chaos at global summits in order to justify a brutal police crackdown.

Footage from Saturday night shows three burly older men who look completely out of place with black bandanas over their face walking alongside young protesters during a march against police brutality in a You Tube clip entitled “G20 Epic Undercover Police Fail”.

The clip would be hilarious if it was not so disturbing. Protesters walking behind what are obviously badly disguised cops claim they broke cameras and acted aggressively towards genuine protesters, as well as carrying gas canisters. During a peaceful demonstration on Saturday night, riot cops savagely attacked protesters with batons and rubber bullets while also assaulting and arresting students who weren’t even part of the demonstration.

Watch the clip below.

http://www.infowars.com/provocateur-cops-caught-disguised-as-anarchists-at-g20/

[paulsby]

109. i have seen those

it doesn't therefore follow that everytime somebody does bad stuff at a riot, it is undercover cops.

MOST of the time, it isn't

like i said,i have SEEN anarchist black bloc training films. i have interrogated them. i have seen them in action

this is textbook for them

[No Elephants]

133. You accuse others of having no evidence, but neither do you.

No one here has evidence either that these people are anarchists or that they are not anarchists.

You've seen videos? So have other people. If you want to pass as anarchists you study them, then use the same M.O. It's not rocket science.

[Truth2Tell]

112. Here's the direct YouTube on that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrJ7aU-n1L8

Disturbing video on a few levels.

[kestrel91316]

41. Well THAT'S certain to win over business people to their cause.......

[memberme]

47. sounds like the rent a-mob bunch

Don't they usually do this crap in Seatlle and other host cities for the economic summits. Kind cheapens the march and draws from it's affect.

At any rate, I was sure this was going to happen.

I didn't know anarchists had an interest in immigration law - who knew?

[Unvanguard]

53. Anarchists have a very strong interest in immigration law.

They tend to oppose borders on principle, and with them the laws that criminalize people who cross them.

[dkf]

57. Open borders and no enforcement of laws are exactly what anarchy is all about.

Advocating the disregard of laws IS anarchy.

[EFerrari]

60. Wrong. Advocating the disregard of unconstitutional laws is conscience.

Our history is full of examples, from the protest that started our very own revolution to the Jim Crows and now, this Juan Crow law.

[dkf]

63. Ah so nobody involved in this movement wants illegal immigrants to be allowed into this country?

Could have fooled me. What are your ideas to enforce our immigration laws? Just arresting US citizens who hire people here illegally with no impact on those here illegally themselves?

And the ultimate is making them legal so you don't have to enforce the laws.

[Unvanguard]

65. If they are legalized, they are hardly illegal, are they?

You're right: we want to change the law. So?

[dkf]

68. You can't undo years of lawbreaking by changing the law.

It's done. Past.

Bootleggers were lawbreakers when we had prohibition. They can't ever undo that.

And why then don't we all break laws in the hope they will change? Should I start smoking pot because I think it may be legalized? Should I deliberately text message people when I drive because I think the law may be changed? What is the purpose of laws if we disregard them because we think they will someday be changed?

[Unvanguard]

76. Who's trying to "undo" it?

You can choose how you punish people for law-breaking. You can even not punish them at all, if you think it wouldn't be fair to do so. That doesn't involve pretending they didn't actually break the law: once again, it just involves recognizing that the enforcement of law is subject to considerations of justice and compassion just like every other aspect of public policy.

I am not breaking any current law, even any law to which I object, by supporting immigration reform, so I'm not sure what your point is.

[Truth2Tell]

113. Should I start smoking pot because I think it may be legalized?

You should start smoking pot for other reasons.

[No Elephants]

137. Who said changing the law undoes years of lawbreaking? Build straw men much?

"Why don't we all break laws in the hope they will change?"

The convictions most of us have are not very strong. And of those who do have strong convictions, only a few are brave enough to risk getting killed or jailed or clubbed.

Look at the civil rights movement. How many African Americans in the U.S. thought Jim Crow laws were unjust? Most of them. What percentage of them sat in the lunch counters and marched on Selma? Very small. Many whites were against those laws, too. Even fewer of them broke the law.

Civil disobedience does not ignore the illegality of an action or expect to escape consequences. You are prepared to go limp and be dragged off to prison, as did the civil rights protesters and then the anti-war protesters. Both groups also got clubbed. Some in both groups got killed.

Should you start smoking pot? That's up to you. How much do you care about the the principle that pot should not be banned and what are you willing to risk for that principle?

But, people crossing the border without papers are different from civil rights and anti-war demonstrators.

They are not breaking the law to make a point to society. To the contrary, they are trying to be stealthy about it, though they know they risk death. They are breaking the law out of desperation, like someone who steals a package of pork chops from the supermarket because he has no other way of feeding his parents or his kids.

[EFerrari]

70. If it's just brown people you're worried about, I'm afraid it's too late.

We're already here. We've always been already here. And that's not going to change any time soon.

[dkf]

83. There is a huge problem in my race too.

I'm not white.

What I am is against an epidemic of convenient law following

Where I'm from there are hardly any Hispanics and the "brown people" are the most legal group around aka Hawaiians.

I tried to be happy that the Democratic party would expand our hold by buying off all illegal immigrants but my stomach just can't take it.

I even tried to defend giving drivers licenses to non-legal people. That lasted about two days. Nope I just can't do it.

[EFerrari]

101. You seem to have no grasp of the stakes here at all. n/t

[Unvanguard]

62. You are confused about both anarchism and advocates of immigration reform.

Most anarchists are not against the enforcement of social rules: they are against certain methods of rule-making (ones that involve the construction of a political class above the people) and certain methods of enforcement (generally, ones that involve a professionalized body of enforcers separate from the public.) Both of these arguments have their merits and their flaws, but neither amount to an "anything goes" society.

"Open borders" as a principle, while certainly embraced by anarchists, is not solely embraced by them, and can be supported without any disregard for law at all. It could, after all, be the law that anyone who wants to come here, can.

Further, those who are part of the movement for immigration reform are advocating neither open borders nor a general disregard for laws: indeed, the comprehensive immigration reform they are supporting will almost certainly involve substantially more stringent border security, and a requirement that undocumented immigrants here pay penalties as part of the path to citizenship. The most you can say about us is that we do not put a reflexive disdain for law-breaking above considerations of justice and compassion. (Well, you could probably say more about me, specifically. But I'm pretty radical...)

[dkf]

67. The only remedy for being here illegally is being removed

I don't get why asking a person who is here illegally to pay taxes they never paid in the first place is any type of punishment. Punishment should be a deterrant and I see nothing in the proposed reforms that would deter future lawbreaking. Instead I see only encouragement of further lawbreaking.

[Unvanguard]

72. That seems an untenably narrow view to me.

Most trivially, another possible remedy is making it so that they are no longer here illegally, i.e., legalizing them.

You will not get your harsh punishment, deterrent or not. First, whatever you think of immigration, it would be morally horrific to imprison or economically ruin or forcibly uproot people who have merely tried to secure the best lives for their families by crossing an imaginary line on a map, depriving in the process no one of their lives, liberty, or property. Harsher punishments may be better deterrents, but we generally recognize that justice and humaneness often mean reining in punishment nonetheless. If we want to stem the flow of immigrants (an arguable aim, but I digress), the just way to do it is preventively with better border security, not retrospectively with deportations and criminalization.

Second, it wouldn't work: we cannot enforce immigration law against eleven million people when we have no reliable means of tracking them all down, and if the punishment is harsh enough that they will not seek a path to legalization when offered, that only will mean the maintenance of the present situation, where they stay here without legal protections, a situation that benefits nobody but the employers who exploit and abuse them.

Neither the moral nor the pragmatic argument here has anything to do with a disregard for the law, merely a recognition that the law should be fair and humane. (There are other arguments that go further, other good arguments, I think, but these are the ones that have the strongest popular hearing, the ones that pro-reform politicians tend to make most often.)

[No Elephants]

134. Nope. Unless you think Thoreau, Ghandi and MLK, Jr were all anarchists.

They even went further than mere advocacy. They actually disobeyed laws. Yet, they were not anarchists. Not even close.

[EFerrari]

59. Oh, effin' please. You're deducing this from a group of people dress in black

who acted out on a day when WORKERS are celebrated, not IMMIGRANTS.

[Unvanguard]

64. I didn't say anything about the particular people discussed in the OP.

Merely about an political position to which it was suggested they might subscribe, a view with which I sympathize though no longer accept, and about which I know a great deal.

If you want, I can provide you with lots of evidence of anarchist views on immigration... it would merely require a few minutes of looking.

[EFerrari]

71. There is no evidence whatsoever that these people

were making a statement about immigration.

You could just as easily make the argument that they were against windows.

[Unvanguard]

73. That's true. They quite possibly weren't.

Smashing store windows is really more of an anti-corporate statement than a pro-immigrant one, though if this was really anarchist work, they don't seem to have targeted it very well.

[EFerrari]

75. I tend to agree with Technogirl that these people were plants.

Sorry if I'm brittle, Unvanguard. It's been a long week and I apologize.

[TorchTheWitch]

89. Exactly - these kids don't actually believe in anything

They're just thuggish kids that took on the Black Bloc tactic for nothing more than the opportunity to create vandalism and general mayhem for fun in a situation where they aren't likely to be caught. Most of them aren't anarchists and wouldn't even know what anarchy is and wouldn't believe in if they did know. They don't generally HAVE any ideology about anything. They show up at every protest or demonstration of any kind as an excuse to get their jollies doing this shit as they aren't likely to be caught. They're the same shits that are now into destructive flash mobs and for the same reason.

[Techn0Girl]

99. I call BS...

Everyone believes in something.
making them out to be Boogymen who are pure evil an in it for only the vandalism is BS. It's a made-up narrative designed to protect the real perps.

If they really just were into vandalism they sure as hell could vandalize a LOT more on nights when , I don't know, there aren't TWO HUNDRED PEOPLE WATCHING THEM maybe?


They disrupted a peaceful labor movement March.
You think left wing types really want to do that?
Who does this benefit? The anti-capitalists? Or Business.

This does not take a lot of thought.
Follow the benefit.

[NuttyFluffers]

108. Exactly, darkness comes 365 days of the year, why do they need a crowd for vandalism?

obviously they want to be seen -- and specifically with otherwise peaceful marches/protests. they could be dressing in black and showing up at Halloween or NYE parties doing the same, but they aren't doing so, and even if they are the media is ignoring it. so then you obviously need to ask: why?

you're thinking makes the most sense to me.

[No Elephants]

140. Everyone is speculating. In reality, none of us has

enough facts to know what was really going on. We may never them, either.

[paulsby]

85. anarchists aren't interested in the marketplace of ideas

and having debates over lattes at a "liberal sympathetic" establishment

they want to SMASH the machine.

have you ever interrogated one? i have. several. seen videos of their training camps? i have

these fucksticks don't want to gently persuade people of their pov. they want violent destructive ANARCHY...

[Techn0Girl]

97. Really ?

So they are not people like you and I .
They're violent.
They're destructive.
They want violent destructive anarchy, so you say.

What if they aren't even real?
What is, aside from a few idiots, the so-called black blocs are just FBI and police infiltrators who are used to discredit things like...ohhh... I don't know... a peaceful Workers labor movement march through Santa Cruz - or anywhere else.

Black Blocs sound too much like boogeymen to me. And they're too frigging organized.
This narrative of ... "oh they're not like you and me - they're violent bent on destruction - They're evil" sounds like a load of bull.

The Bush admin used infiltrators all the time to discredit peaceful labor movements. You think it isn;t happenning now?

Black blocks my white ass.
This was designed to discredit a workers peaceful May Day/Labor mvement march.

[boppers]

103. Murderers are real. Rapists are real. Black Bloc is real.

[paulsby]

110. exactly

this pollyanna attitude (which is devoid from reality) is simply amazing with some people.

black bloc fucksticks have a loooooooong history. i have dealt with them firsthand. several times. i have watched their training films.

why is it that some people on DU want to assume they don't exist? is it because they are (somewhat) associated with the leftwing, so therefore their fuckupedness needs to be ignored?

and like i said. they view liberals with contempt. arguably MORE contempt than they view conservatives, in many ways. because they see them as giving lip service to some of the same ideas, but being pussies when it comes to DOING anything about it. doing something about it for black bloc'ers means breaking shit.

[Truth2Tell]

144. paulsby, I think I'm familiar

with the same anarchists you are for the most part. I'd bet that these people that you're so fond of bragging about interrogating and studdying are also people I have interacted with and organized with over the years (often tentatively). For someone with so much exposure to anarchism you really seem to have an unsophisticated, simplistic and hate-prejidiced view of their motives and ideology. I don't agree with my black-bloc friends about many things, but I at least understand what they beleieve and how they act. Your view is tantamount to "the terrorists hate us for our freedom." Really shallow IMO.

[Paladin]

150. That's A Very Interesting Perspective. Not Sure I Agree With It. (n/t)

[Techn0Girl]

116. Real sure - but who is running them....

I'm betting it's FBI and other mainstream groups.

Their behavior doesn't make sense unless you view it in the context of them being used to discredit real progressive causes.
I think the Soviets called them useful idiots. The left wing version of teabaggers - and in my opinion being run by the very same people.

[boppers]

119. I have known black bloc folk.

These were people who lived on boats, had no taxable "income", had multiple names and identities, and had a sharp understanding of US law. They don't exist, unless they wanted to.

To compare to them to teabaggers is correct in one sense, in that both despise the government, but in another sense, well, teabaggers complain about taxes, while bloc folk pay no taxes.

As far as the FBI running them, well, that's worth a thought and a giggle. I don't think the FBI is in the business of creating post-government economies.

[No Elephants]

138. People who look like the original black bloc-ers are real. One monolithic black bloc is not real.

Anyone can dress in black and wear a mask from a "second story man" to a member of Al Qaeda to someone wanting to discredit a demonstration. And all of the foregoing have dressed in black and worn masks.

Whatever Black bloc was or meant at its origin, "black bloc" today is a tactic, or a group of tactics. It proves nothing about the ideology of the people who use the tactic. You have to have more facts before you can conclude anything.

P.S. Thanks for the photo. Reminds of the fool who dressed up to "expose" ACORN and Senator Landrieu.

[boppers]

151. They are grouped together by methods, not ideology, not leadership.

There is no central control.

This is why "disrupting black bloc" makes as much sense as "disrupting al queda".

There is very little central control to disrupt.

The organization is about ideas, not leaders.

[and-justice-for-all]

49. thanks pukes, another mission accomplished...

this would be the result of their pro-racial profiling legislation.

[Quantess]

69. Eh... an indirect result, at best.

Breaking the windows of Jamba Juice cannot be pinned on the RWers.

[No Elephants]

141. Really? You know the person who broke that window? Please see Reply 138, among others..

[Lydia Leftcoast]

77. All you middle of the road types who have never heard of POLICE PROVOCATEURS

need to be educated.

I have seen them in action. They break off from the main group and try to incite everyone else to commit illegal acts. Once a group of provocateurs was driven into the demonstration in an SUV on a street that was supposed to be blocked to traffic and guarded by the cops.

I was even at a planning meeting once when some conservative-looking guy showed up and started telling us that we needed to break windows and tip cars to get our message across. Fortunately, the rest of us were older and wiser and told him to leave.

[HughMoran]

81. Is this what happened?

Or are you assuming?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

96. I don't know--it certainly is a possibility

A masked person could be anyone, and these types have a way of showing up and grabbing all the publicity from otherwise peaceful assemblies.

Just don't assume it's "leftists gone wild." Police provocateurs have been used at least since the 19th century.

[hunter]

93. I'd like to unmask one of these morons.

Tackle 'em down and zip 'em up like they're an airline terrorist.

Could be interesting...

[Crowman1979]

95. I was thinking of handcuff and shackle them together , wrapped in yellow crime scene tape.

...have a cardboard sign saying "Tyranny" duct-tapped across there mouths and tied to a lamp post. All for the purpose of keeping them immobilized and letting the vast majority of protesters continue on.

[Techn0Girl]

98. I think what needs to be done...

id that anytime a peaceful March is done - that the organizers educate the participants through handouts and bullhorns that people who cover their face are not only not permitted in the march but if a marcher sees on they should mob him rip off the mask and snap a phone photo of the face.


How many will eventually be traced to FBI and police black ops I wonder?

[chrisa]

104. Stupid Anarchists.

They run into protests, and use the legitimate protesters to blend in. Then, they smash the area around them, and slip back into the crowd of legitimate protesters when the police try to stop them.

Then, of course, those who are against the protesters will claim that the anarchists were part of the protest.

On a further note, unless if I'm mistaken, videos show these morons even antagonizing and trying to start fights with the May Day protesters. What a bunch of epic failures.

[NuttyFluffers]

107. obvious core of black ops using a few impressionable youths dressed in black as cover

Xe? Wackenhutt? hmm, who, who could it be? and why? repeat of the 1960s to get another law-n-order guy (aka GOP RW front) back into power?

... only the manipulable believe the simplistic surface answer. too organized and targeted to be organic -- and if we know anything about LW protests, they are all about organic, not regimented organization. so, qui bono?

[boppers]

114. LW protests are not always organic. That simply had to change.

In the wake of "free speech zones", increased police brutality and crackdowns, and internet communication coming of age, the hard left (and hard right, too) started up online communities, which translated into real-life communities, who organize far in advance.

They start things like message boards, where like minded folks can collaborate, they run workshops, they get educated and organized. There *has* been a government crackdown on sites that "go too far", so a fair bit has been driven offline/underground.

For example, the original owner of:
http://www.raisethefist.com/

Went to jail for the posting of organization and bomb-making directions on his website:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Austin

...and may you may recall the recent arrest of somebody for *tweeting* their location during a protest. We're far beyond "show up here at such-and-such a date".


edit: clean up phrasing to improve meaning

[Ian David]

123. Anarchists are dumbasses. n/t

[librechik]

135. Who the fuck attacks a Jamba Juice as a statement of dissent?

The American Beef Council?

I'm guessing shenannigans of the false flag variety.

[No Elephants]

143. Those damned Juiceists that's who!

(Funny, they don't look Juicey.)

[boppers]

152. Crimes of Jamba Juice:

1) A corporate chain.
2) Non-livable wages.
3) Non-union staff.

I don't agree with the targeting, but I understand it.

[Dr. Strange]

154. Arab terrorists.

[Wednesdays]

142. This has "false flag" written all over it

Anytime a liberal or "leftist" protest breaks out in violence perpetrated by the (supposed) protesters, the violent protesters are never identified. Why is that?

[defendandprotect]

153. Agree . . . this is probably arranged sabotage of the protest --

"false flag" . . . . ??