Nissan Leaf electric vehicle to sell for less than $33,000

[wpsedgwick]

Source: Green Technology Daily

Nissan announce this week that its new electric vehicle (EV), the Leaf, will have a manufacturer's suggested retail price of $32,780 for the standard model.

The vehicle, designed to travel 100 miles on an average battery charge, will be available in some markets this December, with nationwide sales beginning in 2011.

Nissan said it would begin accepting online reservations for the Leaf on April 20 for a fully refundable fee of $99.


Read more: http://www.greentechnologydaily.com/auto/674-nissan-leaf-electric-vehicle-to-sell-for-less-than-33000

[Ian David]

1. I will buy a used one that's 3 years-old, by which time most of the depreciation is done.

Unless I hit the lottery or something, in which case I will buy a new one.

[meeshrox]

35. Be prepared to replace the battery at that age...

Still, you'll know of all the bugs by then!

[tinrobot]

60. Battery will last a lot longer than 3 years.

[meeshrox]

71. OK, looked it up...

NiMH batteries last much longer than I expected...my mistake! :hi:

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

2. Still too expensive. EV's need to be within about $10k of IC economy cars to make financial sense.

The average american doesn't care enough about the environment to shell out an extra $6k-$10k on their car expenses.
Buying a used one probably makes more sense.

[alfredo]

4. The Mazda2/Ford Fiesta might be a better deal.

[TheMadMonk]

18. Not if you have to shell out an amout close to the depreciated value...

...of the vehicle for a new battery pack to replace one that has reached the end of its useful life.

[jmowreader]

36. No...there's another way to look at this

The average American doesn't want to spend $33,000 on a car with a range of only 100 miles. If I suddenly decide I want to take my $33,000 car to Selma to go cigar shopping, or drive from Houston to Dallas, or Spokane to Seattle, or wherever, I cannot do it. (Oh, I COULD drive from Spokane to Seattle...in a week, with a two-hour drive followed by an overnight hotel stay to recharge the car. That's not what a $33,000 car should force you to do.) Hundred-mile range? Screw that. This is a car for people who can afford more than one car.

This is one place the Americans are going to totally kick Japan's ass: the Chevy Volt has an engine. If you run the car past the limits of the battery, the engine comes on and provides enough electricity to get you where you want to go. For most of your travels the electric motor will be sufficient, but if you decide you want to take a weekend trip, you can.

[wackywaggin]

54. Great post!

Totally agreed with your thoughts.

Heretic Wack :0)

[tinrobot]

61. With incentives, it's $25K or less.

The feds are giving $7500 back, and some states like California are giving back up to $5,000 on electric vehicles. This $12,500 in rebates turns a $33,000 car into a $21,000 car. Add in the $100-200/month you'll save on gas, oil changes, tune ups, and it becomes very cost competitive.

As for range, yes, it is an issue. But if you really want to drive a few hundred miles just to buy cigars, then maybe a car like this isn't for you. For the rest of us, range won't be much of an issue. As someone who already drives an electric car, I will say that range anxiety goes away very quickly -- and that's with just me charging at home.

Many cities are installing charging stations at a rapid rate, which will give EVs a much more extended range. San Diego and Los Angeles for example, will have several thousand public chargers installed in the next 2-3 years. So, you could drive all over Southern California and always be able to charge up if you run low. There's already a string of charging stations between LA and San Francisco, each about 50 miles apart.

As for me, I plan on upgrading my current EV to a Leaf or some other EV in the next few years. As soon as people start driving them, the fears will diminish, and EVs will become very popular. My experience has shown they're very practical to own.

[jmowreader]

73. JUST to buy cigars? You've never shopped at JR's

This place is like stogie wonderland. The cigar room is 200' long x 80' wide and it looks a lot like an old bookstore--the shelves are these old oak bookcases. Outside the room, there's this huge discount outlet that sells everything from books to towels to cowboy boots to perfumes. (My wife says it's so the spouse and kiddies will have something to do while the old man's in there buying cigars.) And if you cross the Interstate you'll find a huge outlet mall. It's like the ultimate tourist trap, and it's on the primary road between the Northeast and Florida.

But seriously, if I spend even $25,000 on a new car it's going to be one I can drive all day long, not one that will only go a hundred miles.

Now! Having said that, which is true, there is a quick, simple way to solve the problem. Thermo King makes a device called the TriPac APU. They sell these to truck drivers as an idle-elimination technology. It's got a small 2-cylinder diesel engine in it, plus a small oil-fired furnace. The TriPac does three things for the professional driver: keeps the tractor engine warmed up (it is plumbed into the tractor engine's cooling system), heats the cab, and provides AC power. The guts of the TriPac are NOT that big. I figure if Nissan were to get a TriPac, remove the case and integrate the guts into the electric car, it would do three things--there's no need to keep the car's main engine warmed up since there isn't one. First, it would keep the batteries charged up. If they fell below a certain charge level, the TriPac would kick in and top 'em off. If you wanted to charge the car by plugging it in, the car's computer could tell the TriPac not to start. Second is cabin heat. Right now the car uses an electric heater, which will chop battery range. (Combined with the reduction in range you ALREADY get from the cold, and this car's going to go about 50 miles in the winter, if that.) And third...well, screw 12 volt appliances and cigarette lighter plugs, with the inverter on the TriPac you can just plug 110v thing in. They wouldn't HAVE to use that particular APU--there are several brands--but the TriPac is the most popular APU on the market for two reasons: It's made by Thermo King, a company that has made small diesels for a VERY long time; and it works really well. Yes, you could install one yourself, but ask yourself this: after you spent $25,000 on a new car, would you take it home and start field-modifying it? This ain't no tape deck, kids; this is major reengineering of the car because you'd have to add a radiator for the TriPac's engine.

[tinrobot]

74. I think the Volt is a better car for you.

Some places in the country just aren't conducive to EVs just yet. For us here in Southern California, we have the advantages of weather (no heat needed) fiscal incentives ($5000 off the price of the car) and a growing network of charging stations (100 mile range becomes less of an issue)

Besides, jury rigging a generator would probably cost more than it's worth - even if it means you get to go buy cigars. Go buy a Volt - the generator is built-in.

[Honeycombe8]

52. A Honda Fit would cost me about $20K with some options. This Nissan EV is $10K more...

I don't know the EV's size or anything.

But my point is...it IS within $10K of an economy car, except maybe for really, really small economy cars. Most get close to $20K with options, though. And the ones I've been looking at are larger than tiny, and generally would run me around $25,000.

The Prius would run me about $30K to $35K depending on which model and options. That's probably the EV's main competitor.

[tinrobot]

67. See above, with incentives, the car is less than $25K

The feds give $7500 back, and many states also give back up to $5000.

[kestrel91316]

56. A lot of cars (in fact most) don't make "financial sense", but MILLIONS of

Americans still buy them.

[boomerbust]

3. I'll wait

For the all electric Ford Focus in 2011. Buy AMERICAN.

[DJ13]

5. Thats a lot of money for a car that looks like the Tardis on Dr. Who

[MurrayDelph]

10. I could do

with a car that's bigger on the inside.

That said, electric cars will not be feasible until they can go about three hundred miles on a single charge, or need no more than one ten-minute-or-less recharge (or battery swap).

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

6. The mid-70's Civic got 40 mpg.

:eyes:

[greenbird]

8. My little Toyota Echo,

which is unfortunately no longer with us, got a good reliable 42 mpg.

[Dover]

15. ROFL! When all else fails, pull out the ol' 'collective amnesia strategy'.

Don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Now it's a big deal to even approach the level of efficiency we already reached YEARS AGO!

In fact the auto companies have been given even MORE time (6 years) to get it up to a measly 32-36 MPG under the new fuel efficiency standards.

AND they like to tell us it's that way because we, the public, demanded it...a preference for gas- hungry performance over efficiency. More like force feeding. Sure, and we also asked the tobacco companies to increase the levels of nicotine and other addictive ingredients in cigarettes.

The auto companies aren't in cahoots with the oil companies....really!

[tabasco]

19. Still got mine!

Great little car.

[HughMoran]

27. Nissan claims 367 mpg for electric Leaf

[jmowreader]

37. Gallon of WHAT?

Miles per gallon ratings are meaningless when you are dealing with a car that doesn't use liquid fuel.

[HughMoran]

40. Nissan, followed up later ... stating that they were using a DOE formula to estimate the 367 mpg

...
At first, we thought this was an odd claim to make, seeing that the Leaf is fully electric and (as stated in the same tweet) doesn't actually use gasoline or diesel fuel. Nissan, followed up later with another tweet stating that they were using a DOE formula to estimate the 367 mpg equivalency for the electric LEAF, but doesn't that just confuse prospective customers further with obtuse conversions?
...

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10310134-48.html

I'm an engineer and estimating equivalent gasoline usage is child's play, so long as they followed DOE formulas, the estimate is valid.

[JustAnotherGen]

44. Okay - Read your posts below

:-) In simple speak - someone like me that drives on average 50 Miles a day - this might be worth it? Correct? I own my 2006 Nissan Altima (have just under 65K Miles on it right now). I intend to drive it/own it until 300K. That's about the time my parents 1995 Altima finally died. My dad actually started trying to :rofl: kill it at 260K - and it just wouldn't die. :rofl: Add in the fact that I live lesss than a mile from a train station (Central NJ) and generally if I'm going to Newark, Philly, or Manhattan - I train in to save gas/exhaust/energy . . . this car looks appealing.

I've been receiving notification on this vehicle from Nissan for quite some time. I'm using you for your engineering expertise - I already have 19K saved for my next vehicle. Buying a used Leaf in 2012 could be doable financially. Adding in the gas cost savings and the fact that I would still own the Altima for long trips - the 367 is goood - correct?

ETA - The other 'knock around' car I'm looking at for 2011/2012 is a Smart Car. Again, the cost benefit and overall gas usage/efficiency is a key factor in the decision making process.

[HughMoran]

48. Well, there's one issue here...

I merely took issue with the 'comparing to 40 MPG' thinking.

I don't think the price/performance is here yet for these vehicles unless you really like the novelty, will never drive over 100 miles in a day and know that the batteries will wear out some day at a significant expense.

Sorry, my focus in this thread is somewhat narrow :D

[skepticscott]

46. The electricity still has to be generated somehow

it doesn't just flow out of thin air, obviously. It comes from a power plant where, in all likelihood, they burn fossil fuels to produce electricity. Is the DOE saying that by using the fossil fuel energy equivalent of 1 gallon of gas, you can generate enough electricity to drive a car 367 miles, when that gallon of gas in a normal engine would only take the car a tenth of that? Not likely. Conspiracy theories about the automakers and the oil companies aside, that's just not physically possible.

[HughMoran]

50. Yes, generation efficiencies and transmission costs are accounted for.

...from Wiki:

"Running costs

Electric car operating costs can be directly compared to the equivalent operating costs of a gasoline-powered vehicle. The energy generated by complete combustion of 1 liter gasoline is about 9.7 kilowatt-hours (35 MJ). Accounting for inefficiencies of gasoline vs. electric engines and transmission and battery losses, 1 liter gasoline is equivalent to 2.7 kilowatt-hours (9.7 MJ) from batteries.<11> Given the Tesla Roadster's plug-to-wheel mileage of 280 W·h/mi and an arbitrary electricity price of $0.10/kW·h, driving a Tesla Roadster 40 miles a day would cost $1.12. For comparison, driving an internal combustion engine-powered car the same 40 miles, at a mileage of 25 mpg, would use 1.6 gallons of fuel and, at a cost of $3 per gallon, would cost $4.80. This is approximately 4 times more expensive than charging the electric car. This cost advantage varies depending on the costs of gasoline and electricity, the mileages of the vehicles, and the type of driving being considered. The cost advantage of electric cars increases in start-and-stop city driving because the regenerative braking systems of the newer electric cars recapture much of the kinetic energy of the moving vehicle and use this to recharge the batteries upon braking. This cannot be done for gasoline powered vehicles, and this energy is lost as heat. By contrast, during highway driving, most of the energy used to move the car forward is dispersed through wind resistance, which is not easily recoverable. In this case, gasoline powered cars compare more favorably with electric cars.

The Tesla uses about 13 kW·h/100 km (0.47 MJ/km; 0.21 kW·h/mi), the EV1 used about 11 kW·h/100 km (0.40 MJ/km; 0.18 kW·h/mi).<12>"

[skepticscott]

62. Well, I wasn't talking about cost equivalence so much as energy equivalence

If one liter of gas equals 2700 W-h and the electric car uses 280 W-h/mi, that works out to the equivalent of about 9.6 miles per liter, or about 36 miles per gallon. How in the world do you get from there to 367 mpg, even with regenerative braking?

[HughMoran]

72. Ask Nissan

I don't give a crap about Nissan - I'm an 'American cars only' person - I was simply passing along the information that is available. Why can't you do a search and verify it for yourself - I think your eyes will be opened as most of the electric vehicle companies are claiming 280 - 370 mpg equivalents. They may be wrong, but arguing with me is fruitless - I didn't make the claim, they did.

[skepticscott]

76. You've repeated the claim

over and over and over on this thread. if you were content to let what Nissan said stand on its own, why did you find it necessary to keep emphasizing it, as if it were unquestionably true? There's no dispute about whether Nissan made the claim, only whether it has any validity. If you can't support the claim in the face of a simple counter-argument based on numbers that you supplied yourself, then have the intellectual integrity to admit that you were promoting bullshit.

[HughMoran]

80. Why the Electric Car Mileage Debate Is Pointless

Why the Electric Car Mileage Debate Is Pointless

In the past few days, reporters and analysts have gone to great lengths to discuss whether the Chevy Volt will get 320 or 150 miles per gallon.

One fact, though, is entirely left out of the discussion: It's irrelevant.

Gas mileage is important for conventional cars because gas costs a lot. In the muscle car era, it wasn't discussed – automakers instead bragged about how many pistons and cylinders an engine had. Gas mileage only became important during the first Arab oil embargo in the early '70s. The fortunes of economy cars, and hence the importance of mileage, have waxed and waned with the price of gas.

In electric cars, it won't matter. Electricity costs vastly less than gas and almost any electric car will score better on efficiency than a gas engine. Electric cars will likely also require far less maintenance. And, except in corner case places like Pennsylvania (a coal state) or Hawaii (where electricity is produced by diesel generators) the carbon dioxide emissions will be far lower with an electric car.

No matter how you slice it, electric cars will win hands down in mileage and fuel consumption. Besides, do you think anyone is going to adequately be able to test if Aptera's electric three-wheeler gets 300 miles per gallon equivalent without a lot of extrapolation?

Consumers and analysts instead should focus on range.

Range is the Achilles' heel of electrics. The Tesla Roadster goes close to 250 miles. The Volt will go 400 with its on-board gas generator. Nissan's leaf will go around 100 miles. While Tesla already has cars on the road that have been tested, the range on the rest of these is a mystery. Range will be the one area where differences in engineering and design will manifest themselves and where consumers will notice a palpable difference in cars from different makers. Consumer Reports and others will likely harp on this quite a bit. I wouldn't be surprised if the Department of Transportation spends a lot of time on this issue too.

And expect to see a lot of articles about people being stranded on the road after misinterpreting their "gas" gauge. Word-of-mouth on range will make or break cars. Companies will also compete on charge time, but, to be honest, charge time will mostly be out of the control of automakers. It depends where you plug in.

One could argue that gas mileage is an important component in determining the overall price of electric cars. Because batteries are expensive, electric cars will cost more than gas models. Low operating cost, but high capital cost: It's like owning solar panels instead of a gas heater. You could do a analysis to determine how many years it would take an electric car to "break even" with a gas car, but it's probably not a good idea if you want to go electric. Even if gas goes to $4 a gallon, the economic argument for electric cars will be difficult to digest. It will likely be even tough to justify buying a plug-in hybrid on a "cross over analysis" for a few years.

In the end, both consumers and car makers will turn a blind eye to economics. These cars will sell because they are fun.

http://www.greentechmedia.com/green-light/post/why-the-electric-car-mileage-debate-is-pointless/

_______________________________________________________________

Note that I responded to people making claims of how good 40MPG was. It was never my point to argue about mileage until a bunch of people here thought it was a significant point of comparison. I think it's idiotic myself, so I posted Nissan's claim - I think it was an appropriate thing to do considering the number of people who choose to totally miss the point.

[Yuugal]

30. My 2001 Echo only gets 40 mpg

I was robbed! :) The best it ever did was 44.9 average on a tank on the way to Fla one time.

[meeshrox]

43. My '07 Yaris gets 35/38...still love that damn adorable car!

[jus_the_facts]

9. My 80's Chevette would too....it's like they expect us to believe that never happened now...

:wtf:

[LisaM]

13. I know.

There were a lot of cars that got mileage in the 40s - even in the city.

[HughMoran]

28. Nissan claims 367 mpg for electric Leaf

[skepticscott]

65. Nissan is lying through their teeth

[tinrobot]

75. Anbody who claims an MPG rating for an EV is lying.

[skepticscott]

77. They certainly are

unless they supply a justification for those numbers based on the energy equivalent between gasoline and electricity.

[Donnachaidh]

11. my 65 volkswagon beetle got 50mpg. n/t

[HughMoran]

26. Nissan claims 367 mpg for electric Leaf

[skepticscott]

66. Nissan is lying through their teeth

[dmallind]

21. And this is relevant to a fully electric car using no gallons how? NT

[HughMoran]

24. Who knew the Civic was electric powered?

!

[HughMoran]

25. Nissan claims 367 mpg for electric Leaf

OMG - in your grill!!!!

[jmowreader]

38. Quit saying that, dude

Nissan could claim a million miles per gallon, and may as well since it requires no gallons to travel a mile in a car with no engine.

[HughMoran]

42. Except the estimate is based on DOE formulas

Why does it bother you that the Leaf is so efficient?

[meeshrox]

45. It is wonderful that the Leaf is efficient...

but, as your posted link says, the DOE estimate is obtuse. I would love to see the mathematical gymnastics they used...

I understand that they use these mpg numbers to quantify how much better these cars are, but to someone who might not understand the methodology, it's obtuse. These numbers are used for marketing purposes. The real issue will be how much their electricity bills will go up to charge these cars.

[HughMoran]

49. The killowatt-hour equivalent can be calculated

...but I would need to know some of Nissan's internal efficiency numbers to do so. Perhaps if you Google 'cost to run electric cars' you might find something. I'm working on a work project now that involves power so I can't do it now.

[skepticscott]

68. Are you sure you're not working

on a project to shill for Nissan? See my post #62. The numbers you cite are complete BS.

[snooper2]

88. They also weighed around 1500 pounds

and had like a 52 hp engine...

:eyes: That's why they were popular to prank- pick up and spin around sideways in the high school parking lot :rofl:

[RobinA]

92. My 2003 Civic

got 41 mpg highway on a trip two summers ago. Couldn't believe it. Checked and rechecked the math. Figured it HAD to be a mistake. Coming back got 39 mpg. I don't know, musta had a tailwind both ways.

[tomm2thumbs]

7. The Model T boasted 25 MPG in 1908

we've come a not-so-long-way baby

[thereismore]

12. Small engine. Had to back up into hills. Quest for more power cost us dearly. nt

[HughMoran]

29. Nissan claims 367 mpg for electric Leaf

[skepticscott]

64. Nissan is lying through their teeth

[seabeckind]

14. 100 miles/charge would be fine

Got 2 older cars now, youngest is 14 YO. Me an the missus don't need a backseat in the primary car -- just need a place for a groceries. Few times a year we go more than 100 miles at a shot but 50 miles round trip would do us for 95% or our driving. Use the ICE if we have along way to go or want to haul some people.

Rather than looking at 1 vehicle that solves all your needs, perhaps rent special needs when necessary. Eg, Lowes and Depot let you use their truck when you buy some plywood. Do you really need enough space to haul a refrigerator all the time? The next time you're parked on the beltway, look around at those boxes full of air around you.

Perhaps a slight paradigm adjustment might be in order -- much like the one that happened 100 years ago when we hung up the spurs.

But, none of this matters because if it's more than $15k, I can't afford it. I can buy a lot of gas for that extra $10k.

[hobbit709]

32. 100 miles is ONE trip across Austin and back.

[seabeckind]

57. So the next question might be

How often do you drive from one side of Austin to the other and why?

If the answer is to get to work, why do you choose to live so far from work? Did you not factor the transportation cost?

If the answer is you need to travel in your job, like a service tech, then the EV is not for you. But think how much gas you'll have available if 20% of the people go electric. Not to speak of the air quality... or the quiet.

If the answer is that you go to the other side for recreation, then why do you go so far to be recreated? And driving for at least 90 minutes in the city must be very relaxing...

Then if we can get another 20% out of cars altogether with mass transit (buses are NOT mass transit, BTW) or pedal power (an electric booster on a bicycle might be nice)...

As I said, maybe we need a paradigm shift.

[hobbit709]

70. I live in South Austin

I consider everything north of the river as South Dallas.

I might have to go that far maybe twice a week. We bought our house because all of us old hippies live south. And it only cost us $36K at the time. Most tech jobs are north but you couldn't pay me to live on that side of town. Of course when the economy went south in 2001, nobody wanted to hire a 50+ worker.

As long as my old truck keeps running(1992 Toyota pickup with 120,00 miles) and gets 31mpg on the road and 26-27 in town, I'll keep on doing what I'm doing.

[tinrobot]

63. Austin has no charging stations installed?

How primitive. Maybe the city council should authorize some.

San Diego is already installing thousands of charging stations, so you could drive 100 miles across San Diego, charge for a few hours, and drive home. Los Angeles, Portland, the Bay Area, New York, and many others are installing charging stations as well.

[IDemo]

16. I'll take one of these

Less money, about the same range, spacious interior, standout looks, and made in America.
A diesel hybrid is also available that will offer better range.

https://www.aptera.com/look.php

[MUAD_DIB]

20. It would be a reat car as long as you don't experience any winter.

It looks cool, and I like it, but it would be impractical in some parts of the country/world.

[seabeckind]

59. Many of these arguments against

aren't really reasons, they're rationalizations. I lived in midwest winters and while there commuted around 25 miles to work. Of the roughly 200 days a year I went to work there were perhaps 25 I might not have been able to use this car and would have to fall back to the ICE...but I'm not sure of that.

That means I would have cut my gasoline requirements by 88% or so. Maybe Sarah might not be able to use an EV when she goes to shoot her moose or Cletus might not be able to use it to haul his bass boat across Minnesota to go ice fishing (or whatever they haul up there)

but what does that have to do with my driving to the grocery store? Or the other 50 million drivers who might fall into my category?

[MUAD_DIB]

85. I was not taking your needs into consideration. I was taking mine.

It is a beautiful car, but It would have to be a little more practical... i.e. a little more wheel height.

I'm sure that it would be a great car in certain locations.

[DissedByBush]

17. I like, but still too rich for my bank account

I'm waiting for one that costs less than $15,000.

I'll accept if it can only go 50 miles city and no faster than 50 mph since my round-trip commute is much less than that and only in the city.

[Itchinjim]

22. That's only $23k more than I can afford.

[old mark]

23. If I had money to invest right now, I'd put it in Nissan and Ford, among other things -

I think they are going to be big players in this over the next 10 years.


mark

[hobbit709]

31. That's about 10 times what I can afford

I'll keep driving my 1992 Toyota pickup that gets 31mpg.

[Bluenorthwest]

33. Costs twice what I can pay

Goes half the distance I need to go. I'll be taking a pass on that, thanks.

[TreasonousBastard]

34. Whoopee! Now If I had $50-60,000 to get a Leaf I could only use around town in...

good weather and another car to use for the other half of the driving I do I'd be set.

(Howcum no one's talking about the electric Ford Transit Connect that's going to be far more useful as a local delivery truck)

[2Design]

39. 30,000 for a car that wears out in 6 to 10 years - sorry no can do n/t

[meeshrox]

41. I'm interested to see how people's electricity bill goes up

and if that offsets the cost of gas. I think electric vehicles are a great stepping stone, but they still pollute if your house's electricity comes from a coal or natural gas plant. It's just masking and rearranging the car's footprint. I'm all for this technology, but I'm just calling out that people will be surprised to see their electricity bill go up...and the power companies will rejoice!

Yes, I'm being overly critical...this is good news!

[skipos]

47. I get about 40 mpg in my Ford Fusion Hybrid, but I bet the Leaf will be WAY less comfortable

for me (6ft). I can never handle being in a car shaped/ sized like the Leaf for very long, and I take a lot of long road trips too.

[carlyhippy]

51. my DH is 6'4, and it doesnt look like he would even fit in that little car

He drives a full sized pickup because of comfort and he also has some back problems. He even complains about my xterra, which we bought because of comfort and 4wd and kids. I wish Nissan or someone would come out with an AFFORDABLE full sized 4wd SUV..we live in a rural area in the northern tier, so 4wd is pretty much necessary in the winter, which is like 4-5 months out of the year :( I am hoping that in 4 years when I get my nissan paid off, by then surely they will come out with an alternative that will fit our needs.

[Honeycombe8]

53. Is that hwy mileage? I think the city mileage for the Fusion Hybrid is in

the 20's mpg?

Anyhoo, the Fusion Hybrid is a no-go for me. No waist-high cargo area, which is a must.

The Ford Escape Hybrid is the ONLY good mileage auto with a cargo area that Ford makes, and it runs over $30K, and the city mileage isn't that great. It's good enough. I'd consider it, but a friend told me the interior looks really cheap. I'll check it out myself, though.

[skipos]

58. The Fusion hybrid is 41 city 36 hwy. I am getting 40 on average.

I too need big cargo space sometimes, and I found a company that makes trailer hitches that you can install yourself on the Fusion Hybrid. People talked highly of them, and they are removable, but I haven't gotten one yet. I buy 8ft lumber a lot, but I can fit them completely inside the Fusion.

I test drove an Escape and liked it. It didn't feel cheap to me at all, especially compared to some of the other cars I was test driving. People seem to like the Prius around here but I found it a little cheap and uncomfortable feeling.

[NikRik]

55. Iam suppose to be excited ?

Ge only 32K , what a deal ! I cant even find a job that will pay more then $10 a hour ,a new car is now in the same catagorey as home ownership ! Then living in the San Francisco Bay area and paying $1,400 a month for a two bdrm condo on one income my wifes ! I see no light at the end of this tunnel in CA. The unemployment is double the nationial average ,last I heard hovering around 17%! My wife and I have been in a state of depression for much to long now thanks to the bush economy. At this point my marriage probbaly wont make it,married 16 years with two young teeenagers 13 and 15 years old . They are sharing a bedroom and it breaks my heart that I cannot provide for my family as a father should . Yet the banks get billions of dollares to go on junkets to the bahamas ! THe whole world seems to be turned upside down. :-(
NikRik

[tinrobot]

69. Wow, a lot of people here like giving money to Exxon.

So many posts about gas mileage. The thing with gas mileage is that you're still using gas, and every time you use gas, an oil company gets more money.

I'd gladly pay a few thousand extra for a car that uses NO GAS, simply to keep as much money away from Exxon and the other oil companies.

I see driving an EV as a political statement as well as a financial statement (ultimately, EVs are cheaper to own)

[skepticscott]

78. Well, the electricity has to come from somewhere

And unless you're running your EV solely off of a solar panel on the roof, it's either coming from a source that uses fossil fuel directly to generate it, or it's being taken from a renewable source, in which case the electricity that is being diverted to run your car has to ultimately be made up indirectly from a fossil fuel source. Unfortunately, you can't escape from fossil fuels that easily.

[fascisthunter]

79. the point is to move toward electricity

in the near future we will see a massive grid where renewable and non-renewables will be used to generate the electricity itself. I think over time, fossil fuels will be fazed out. It's a smart move... this is only a beginning.

[HughMoran]

81. Every article I've read says they are ultimately much cleaner

Why the Electric Car Mileage Debate Is Pointless

In the past few days, reporters and analysts have gone to great lengths to discuss whether the Chevy Volt will get 320 or 150 miles per gallon.

One fact, though, is entirely left out of the discussion: It's irrelevant.

Gas mileage is important for conventional cars because gas costs a lot. In the muscle car era, it wasn't discussed – automakers instead bragged about how many pistons and cylinders an engine had. Gas mileage only became important during the first Arab oil embargo in the early '70s. The fortunes of economy cars, and hence the importance of mileage, have waxed and waned with the price of gas.

In electric cars, it won't matter. Electricity costs vastly less than gas and almost any electric car will score better on efficiency than a gas engine. Electric cars will likely also require far less maintenance. And, except in corner case places like Pennsylvania (a coal state) or Hawaii (where electricity is produced by diesel generators) the carbon dioxide emissions will be far lower with an electric car.

No matter how you slice it, electric cars will win hands down in mileage and fuel consumption. Besides, do you think anyone is going to adequately be able to test if Aptera's electric three-wheeler gets 300 miles per gallon equivalent without a lot of extrapolation?

Consumers and analysts instead should focus on range.

Range is the Achilles' heel of electrics. The Tesla Roadster goes close to 250 miles. The Volt will go 400 with its on-board gas generator. Nissan's leaf will go around 100 miles. While Tesla already has cars on the road that have been tested, the range on the rest of these is a mystery. Range will be the one area where differences in engineering and design will manifest themselves and where consumers will notice a palpable difference in cars from different makers. Consumer Reports and others will likely harp on this quite a bit. I wouldn't be surprised if the Department of Transportation spends a lot of time on this issue too.

And expect to see a lot of articles about people being stranded on the road after misinterpreting their "gas" gauge. Word-of-mouth on range will make or break cars. Companies will also compete on charge time, but, to be honest, charge time will mostly be out of the control of automakers. It depends where you plug in.

One could argue that gas mileage is an important component in determining the overall price of electric cars. Because batteries are expensive, electric cars will cost more than gas models. Low operating cost, but high capital cost: It's like owning solar panels instead of a gas heater. You could do a analysis to determine how many years it would take an electric car to "break even" with a gas car, but it's probably not a good idea if you want to go electric. Even if gas goes to $4 a gallon, the economic argument for electric cars will be difficult to digest. It will likely be even tough to justify buying a plug-in hybrid on a "cross over analysis" for a few years.

In the end, both consumers and car makers will turn a blind eye to economics. These cars will sell because they are fun.

http://www.greentechmedia.com/green-light/post/why-the-electric-car-mileage-debate-is-pointless/

[skepticscott]

82. "Cleaner" is a completely separate issue

from whether the Leaf actually gets "367 miles per gallon". And saying that it's irrelevant to consider the mpg equivalent of energy consumption in and electric vehicle is just dopey. Aside from the fact that it would be nice to know if the people marketing electric cars are actually making honest and accurate claims (or selling bogus and inflated claims to consumers and the government), if the efficiency of conversion from fossil fuel energy to electrical actually makes the mileage equivalent of an electric car not that great, that matters, in the same way that it matters that making ethanol from corn is, at best, barely better than a break-even proposition, energy-wise.

[tinrobot]

83. True to a point.

Yes, a lot of electricity is currently generated by fossil fuels, but there's no rule that they have to be. You can generate electricity a myriad of ways. You could do green power such as solar or wind, non-fossil fuel power such as hydro or nuclear, or you could do fossil fuels such as natural gas and coal.

You also have personal choice. If your utility is burning fossil fuels and you feel strongly about it, then invest in solar panels or a wind turbine.

These alternative options simply don't exist for a gasoline powered car - it's always powered by fossil fuels.

[skepticscott]

86. Well, in our current situation, the immediate goal

is really to use less energy (and other resources as well), regardless of the direct source. If driving a car or truck 100 miles on electricity alone uses significantly less than doing it with a gasoline powered internal combustion engine, well and good. But just because an energy source is ostensibly "renewable", does not necessarily mean that it is a good bargain, energy-wise (e.g corn-based ethanol or hydrogen fuel cells).

Ultimately, of course, we will have to wean ourselves off of fossil fuels, regardless of the cost or inconvenience. If we don't, nature will do it for us, and not give a damn about how it affects our species.

[iris27]

89. Well, in the choice between two evils (coal-fired electricity or gasoline),

I think I'd prefer the fossil fuel that's under American soil and reduces our dependence on foreign oil. Besides, at least in my area, the local power company is adding new renewable sources to its grid all the time. They've done very well for themselves by charging a slight premium for renewable power over coal for those customers that want the option.

[Romulox]

90. Electric cars run on coal. Not pixie dust. Just FYI. nt

[Toucano]

84. There's a $7,500 Tax Credit!

For those who won't read the article:

1. $7,500 federal tax credit.
2. Lease price $349 per month with $2,000 down.
3. 100-mile charge costs under $3 (3 cents a mile - $360 per year at 12,000 miles per year).
4. Free home charging stations and installations for up to 4,700 Nissan Leaf owners in 10 cities in five states: Phoenix and Tucson in Arizona; San Diego, California; the Oregon cities of Corvallis, Eugene, and Portland; the Tennessee cities of Nashville, Knoxville, and Chattanooga; and Seattle, Washington

From other sources:

1. Charge time is 26 minutes to 80% at a Quick Charge station, 4 hours at home.
2. The typical American drives 33 miles a day.


I am surprised by all the naysayers. Nothing is perfect, but this is seriously a step in the right direction.

[hobbit709]

87. $349/mo is about $300 more than my budget allows.

$7500 tax credit doesn't do much for you if your income is below that. $33K is about 3 years income for me. Not everyone has the luxury of living well.

[Romulox]

91. I couldn't have visited my mother for Easter (~45 miles) yesterday in one--

I made an unplanned stop to drop off a nephew (~15 mile side trip). That means the Leaf's battery won't get me home! :wow: