Muslims arrested for trying to pray in Córdoba’s former Great Mosque

[Green_Lantern]

Source: Times Online

Two Muslim tourists were arrested when they tried to pray inside Córdoba’s famous former mosque, breaking a ban imposed by the Roman Catholic Church.


In a statement Catholic authorities condemned the incident: “They provoked in an organised fashion a deplorable episode of violence.”

After being asked to stop praying, it added, “they replied by attacking security guards, two of whom suffered serious injuries”.


Muslim organisations have long campaigned for the right to pray inside the building, which was once one of the biggest mosques in the world.

However, Demetrio Fernández González, the recently appointed Bishop of Córdoba, reinforced a ban on Muslims praying in any part of the 24,000 sq m (260,000 sq ft) building, saying that canon law did not permit it.

A statement from the bishop’s office said: “The shared use of the cathedral by Catholics and Muslims would not contribute to the peaceful coexistence of the two beliefs.”


Despite the prayer ban, the rules have been bent for a number of high-profile Muslim dignitaries, as well as some notorious members of the faith.

Saddam Hussein and Colonel Muammar Gaddafi both stopped off at Córdoba to prey at the former mosque, which comprises 300 yellow and red arches and 1,300 columns.

Read more: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7085695.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=797093

[cali]

1. I don't see how Muslims praying there hurts anything.

[SteppingRazor]

3. Then again, Ariel Sharon praying at the Temple Mount touched off the Second Intifada.

Personally, I think ancient religious sites that have significance to several religions (and there are many in the Middle East, of course, though plenty worldwide, as the story in the OP illustrates) ought to be open to all of the religions. But as long as one religion controls a site, I feel like it's a sign of respect to abide by that religion's wishes. Certainly, though, I can see your point too -- if it's a sacred site to Muslims, heck, why not let'em pray?

[Pavulon]

5. Right after they hold a mass in a Saudi mosque.

then we can talk. Til then, not happening.

[SteppingRazor]

16. Except that I'm unaware of a Saudi mosque that holds special significance for the Catholic church.

n/t

[liberation]

22. Saint Sophia

I know, it is a different country. But it is not like we were being especially stringent in the logical equivalence, since the Mosque in Cordoba was never a fundamental worship significance for the muslim world.

[SteppingRazor]

30. Good point that it's not a significant muslim spot. Although, regarding Hagia Sofia...

like I said below, it's actually not in use as a mosque.

[liberation]

35. I have actually seen praying services conducted there when I visited...

... and honestly the same can be said about Cordoba's mosque. For the most part it is a tourist attraction.

The issue I have is not with the place per se, but the timing of their actions.

[SteppingRazor]

39. Huh. Weird that you've seen services there. It hasn't been a mosque since the 1930s, IIRC.

Maybe they open it up on special occasions.

[liberation]

44. There were plenty of prayer services on the side galleries, and it was no special occasion

at least which I was aware of.

Unless we are getting confused with the Blue Mosque/Hag Sophia parts of the compound.

[Joe Chi Minh]

23. Santa Sophia is Moslem now, I believe. But even if Moslems forbid the Bible

and Christian worship in some of their countries, I think it a great shame that we are not big enough to honour the integrity of the Moslem worshipper in one of our churches - unless it interferes with a formal Christian liturgical or prayer service; and assuming they are not praying aloud, to the distraction of the Christian worshippers - to whom, of course, that would also apply.

Maybe they are prompted by a spirit of truculence, but unless this truculence obtrudes upon the worship of the rest, so what? we should rejoice. It's wonderful to think that we could pray together to the same God in one of his houses of prayer.

[Green_Lantern]

25. I agree but judging by the article these Muslims

Were being disruptive and even shoving people.

[SteppingRazor]

28. It's not in general use as a mosque though. It's a tourist attraction.

The Blue Mosque is right across the square in Istanbul, and so Muslims who live in the area practice there. I doubt anyone would do anything if you said a prayer in Hagia Sofia. Of course, if you made the sign of the cross in the Blue Mosque, there could be problems. ;)


Not really, though. When you go to the Blue Mosque, you're supposed to take off your shoes, and women are supposed to cover their hair. When I was there, some German lady (well, she spoke German. Could've been from a different country, I suppose.) left her hair uncovered. Also, there's a wooden waist-high barricade that non-Muslims aren't supposed to go past. She opened the gate, walked right through it, and started taking pictures up close of the mihrab. A few guys looked absolutely fuming, but a fellow in a suit just walked up to her and escorted her from the building,and that was the end of it.

[liberation]

33. Same can be said about the building in Cordoba

It is just that it would be very foolish to do something as monumentally stupid and insensitive as to try to hold a mass in the Blue Mosque in the middle of the Ramadan, as it is for these jackasses to try to disrupt Easter services. Southern Spain is literally fanatical about Easter, they call it "Holy Week" and they really mean it.

As an atheist I don't care about the religious significance, but these people were only attempting to do one thing: disrupt and provoke. Pretending they are the victims is extremely disingenuous IMHO.

[SteppingRazor]

37. I agree it's silly to call the Muslims the victims in this story. Like I said in my original post...

as long as one religion controls a site, I feel like it's a sign of respect to abide by that religion's wishes.

I'm not exactly up on the whole "god" thing either, but I do believe in avoiding unnecessary provocation, especially where people's deep-seated beliefs are concerned. No good comes of it.

[liberation]

40. Agree 100%

If anything these actions present a clear view of how silly the whole notion of religion is, when we realize that at the basic level Christians, Muslims, and Jews are worshiping the same god. It is like Star Wars fans fighting to the death over which chapter is the "best and true one"...


Humans, we are an interesting species that's for sure: A bunch of jackasses trying to disrupt some fools worshiping a Jewish zombie, because some Arab sex-addict with a bad case of bipolar personality disorder told them to do so.

[TankLV]

102. Then you're being intentionally ignorant. Temple Mount in Jerusalem - site of the blue mosque...

Haggia Sophia in Instanbul, among countless others...

[SteppingRazor]

105. Actually, you're being unintentionally stupid.

note the phrase "Saudi Mosque." See, that means it's in Saudi Arabia. None of your examples are. And indeed, all of the examples you mentioned were discussed previously in this subthread. Try reading before you start yelling.

[Flaneur]

100. What are you, the self-appointed spokesman for Western culture?

[TankLV]

103. No - he's simply pointing out the hypocrisy of their phoney "outrage"

I'd like to see a Catholic do it in a former church - doubt they'd be escorted out civilly...

And these jackasses were the ones who were being VIOLENT!!!

figures...

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[harun]

38. Who's the Christian God, Jesus or God? Because Mulsim's are praying

to the God of Jesus. Problem solved.

[Llewlladdwr]

45. Uh, no, it's not.

And no, they aren't. Try telling a Muslim that he prays to the God of the Jews and let me know what happens.

And it seems pretty obvious that you don't understand the concept of the Christian God being a trinity of three people in one person. Jesus IS God, as are the Father and the Holy Spirit.

[harun]

61. I am a Muslim and every Muslim I have ever met would say they

pray to the same God as the God of the Jews. The Qur'an states this explicitly.

Not all Christian sects believe in the trinity. A number of them are monotheistic:

"Some Christians eschew mainstream trinitarian theology; such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, the Unitarians, Christadelphians, Church of God General Conference (Abrahamic Faith), Socinian and some of the Radical Reformers (Anabaptists), do not teach the doctrine of the Trinity at all." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism#Christian_view).

[Bill McBlueState]

77. It's the same god

And the fact that this god's followers disagree about even its most basic characteristics is a pretty good sign that the whole thing's a sham.

[fascisthunter]

93. .

[Green_Lantern]

47. Christians believe Jesus is God...

Muslims don't believe God is divisible. So technically it's not the same God.

[slackmaster]

72. Not everyone agrees with that assessment, harun

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp

(I'm just pulling your leg, harun. Jack Chick is an assclown, but he is funny.)

[Joe Chi Minh]

42. It's the same God. They are both Abrahamic religions.

[Llewlladdwr]

46. They are NOT the same God.

Islam and Christianity do share some religious texts but that's about it. Allah and Jehovah are in no way the same diety.

[Codeine]

58. Yes, they in point of fact are.

That's pretty basic stuff. They disagree about the nature of said Invisible SkyDaddy, but it all traces back to the same root.

[DRoseDARs]

67. Amazing isn't it, that a DU member would be THIS astoundingly ignorant of a basic historic fact.

:shrug:

[MUAD_DIB]

80. Christians, Jews and Muslims all technically believe in the same "Person up stairs."

There are technicalities in all of the three pillars of the .

Christians believe, or should if the don't want to go to hell :), that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost (The Trinity) are one in the same: indivisible.

Jews don't believe this and neither do Muslims.

Muslims believe that Satan (Iblis) and God will reconcile in the end. Christians don't believe that at all.


Etc., etc...

[mallard]

88. Re: 'Christians, Jews and Muslims all technically believe in the same ...'

Thank you for making a simple concept seem less complex than it possibly can.

This 'God of the X's' crap is way out in left field!

Anyone promoting multiple Gods can forget about appealing to any genuine follower of any of the above.

[Joe Chi Minh]

64. There is only one God, and both religions worship him according to their own lights.

The fact that the Roman Catholic Church is, at least in principle, but also largely in substance, the one teacher of the fulness of truth is neither here nor there.

Do you really think that God would reject the prayers of his many very devout Moslem worshippers? To worship God in good faith is the key requirement.

Read the description of the Last Judgment in Matthew and see why Christ said that upon the first two Commandments (love of God in good faith, i.e. as equally expressed in practical ways to those in need or distress) hangs the whole of the Law and the prophets.

Those who thought they alone were the true worshippers of God because they believed in God in their mind, according to the synagogue teachings, but failed to express it in love of their neighbour were condemned, classified as the goats. While those who claimed they didn't even know God, but who had actually loved their neighbour in reality (the sheep), were welcomed into the courts of heaven. Not everyone who calls me, 'Lord, Lord...' Read Matthew 22: 36-40.

St James says in his Epistle that the devils believe and tremble. Intellectual assent is the least of it, precious gift though it is, to pass on to one's children, providing it is backed up by real love. The essence of the Christian faith is commitment, as expressed in a genuine love of God and neighbour, and that costs. It is also a gift, as that description of the Last Judgment indicates, that God gives to whomever he wills, whether they are conscious formal worshippers or not.

[pennylane100]

66. when I was a kid and forced to attend mass

I use to pray to the "Get me the hell out of here God" I didn't know I was being sacrilegious

[pundaint]

41. That's because you think organized religion is related in some way to God. Huge misconception.

Would one health insurer process your claims if you were a client of a different health insurer?

[demosincebirth]

53. Now we're comparing health insurers wth God? How silly

[cali]

69. huh. you fail miserably as a mind reader, honey.

As a matter of fact, I don't remotely think that.

but kudos on the most moronic post in the thread.

[TankLV]

101. Then let's see about returning all the mosques that were Catholic Churches back into churches...

and see how good that one goes...

Start with the blue mosque on the temple mount in Jerusalem...

[Pavulon]

2. The stabbing part seems to be a problem..(nt)

[LeftinOH]

4. The place hasn't been mosque for several hundred years; like lots of other places in Spain

which were built prior to the Moorish expulsion (1492), they aren't getting their land or buildings back -many of the locals will be happy to remind visitors of that fact.

[liberation]

11. It is even more ironic than that. That building used to be a Christian church prior to the Moors

It is a fascinating building: it went from being a Visigoth church, to a Muslim mosque (and it evolved through 2 different muslim traditions), and then it became a Catholic cathedral.

[DRoseDARs]

89. That I didn't know. Interesting, thank you for pointing that info out.

I made apparently wrong argument further down the thread that the Muslims built the building and as such should be allowed some arrangement to pray in peace. This corrected information doesn't actually change anything as I also made the point that sites that have become holy to different faiths should be open to those different faiths, regardless of who the current religious occupants are. The Turks have made some effort to allow Christians and Muslims to worship again at the Hagia Sophia since its conversion to a museum in the 1920s-30s. Granted, it's a basically a staff break room, but it's an effort to be tolerant and accommodating nonetheless.

All of this makes me glad I'm not religiously insane.
Y'all need to

[harun]

36. What does that have to do with this topic?

[LeftinOH]

51. The Spanish (especially in the South) are aware that there is a longstanding desire

(albeit hazy and unorganized -and completely unrealistic) on the part of many devout Muslims to see formerly Muslim Spain returned to the Islamic world. Muslim tourists openly praying in a place that *used to be* a mosque sets off alarm bells among quite a few locals, who are keenly aware of history.

[harun]

56. I haven't been there so I can't say for myself but my buddy who visited

there (al andalus) said the locals he met seemed quite proud of their Muslim past and what they accomplished during this time.

[Xithras]

70. The building has been NOT a mosque longer than it WAS a mosque.

It was a Christian church for something like 200 years, and then the Muslims converted, rebuilt, and expanded it and used the site as a mosque for about 450 years. Cordoba was captured by Christians fairly early on, in the 1200's, and it's been a Catholic cathedral for about 775 years since then.

A Muslim has no more business praying there today than a bunch of Baptists would have if they invaded a Druid prayer circle and began screaming fire and brimstone while the Druids tried to pray. It's not their church, and there's no valid reason for them to go in there and provoke a fight.

[Submariner]

6. The vatican can take their canon law and stick it where the sun don't shine

The clergy quite familiar with that strategy already, or covering up for it.

The catholic church does not have an ounce of moral credibility left, so I wonder what they are thinking to try and tell others what to do. :eyes:

What a weird super-cult.

[Gman]

7. Well, you know what?

Nobody gives a shit what you think. You're not Catholic and probably nothing else, so have a nice day.

[Tempest]

8. How Christian of you

Attitudes like yours is why Catholic church membership is in decline.

Keep up the good work.

[Submariner]

50. 12 years of nuns in the archdiocese of Boston

qualifies me to lay into that warped religion and the racist, sexist and destructive cultists that run it anytime I feel like it.

Excuse me if I came across harsh. I was raised strict catholic, so it goes with the territory.

[Green_Lantern]

54. at least Catholic bishops don't call for Jihad...

nt

[MUAD_DIB]

81. I believe they used to...once upon a time.

All religions grow up, somewhat, eventually. Islam is about 500 years behind Christianity in that regard.

[panzerfaust]

107. Ah yes. The Crusades. Gone - but not forgotten.

All three Abrahamic religions (the "People of the Book") were, at one point, savagely bloody religions.

The Christians have, for the most part, become less so: Being influenced not only by the pointless centuries of bloodshed following the Reformation (still not over it in Ireland), but by becoming increasingly secularized by society.

The Jews lost their blind savagery (read the Bible for a measure of how intolerant and savage they were) after they were crushed by the Romans and dispersed - because they no longer had any power, and too by being exposed to modern society.

The Mohammedans (ok, I am being provocative) - the Muslims have never been crushed in war (though driven from the European Continent), undergone a reformation, or accepted modern secular values - thus only Islam continues to preach Jihad as part of the mainstream of the religion.

Certainly the fundamentalist, simplistic, intolerant fractions of both Christian and Jewish religions have the same zeal and intolerance, but they do not have the mainstream of their faiths behind them as does Islam.

[Green_Lantern]

10. yet Catholics weren't the ones whipping out knives...

It's their property so why is it so weird that they maintain the right to ask people to leave?

[Codeine]

59. And Islam is just brimming with moral credibility?

A pox on both their houses.

[Warpy]

9. Typical Christian bigotry at work

“The shared use of the cathedral by Catholics and Muslims would not contribute to the peaceful coexistence of the two beliefs.”

Uh, doofus, the shared use would promote coexistence of the two beliefs.

Hey, dummy, you all pray to the same desert god, so your intolerance doesn't make any sense on any level at all unless approached from the direction of bigotry. That's your bigotry, not theirs.

I have to side with the Muslims in this one.

[Green_Lantern]

13. it's not based on bigotry..

When Muslims pray they do it outloud and I'm betting it echoes in the Cathedral so it is disruptive. Secondly when asked to leave they attacked security guards. You side with that?

[Warpy]

14. They're not any louder than Catholics thumbing their beads.

Remember, the article says "praying," not screaming.

[Green_Lantern]

20. When Muslims pray it is outloud...

I didn't say they screamed but it is basically a loud chant.

Catholics don't pray the rosary outloud during services.

[Warpy]

29. There wasn't an organized mass going on

It was more of a Holy Week sideshow with penitentes and tourists snapping photos.

Had they disrupted a mass, I'd have been less sympathetic. As it is, I sincerely doubt their praying disturbed anyone but the bigots.

[Green_Lantern]

34. well they were still asked to either continue the tour

Or leave and they became violent.

[liberation]

17. Before you side with anyone, I recoomend you actually know the facts

First off, these oh so historically concerned Muslim faithful were attempting to disrupt catholic religious services, during one of the most important worship weeks, in one of the most important religious buildings for Southern Spanish catholics (who are specially devout).


It is like some jackass Christian raising a stink in Mecca by trying to hold a mass right next to the Kaaba, in the middle of the Haj.



Your knee jerk reaction makes the projection of intolerance funny though.

[Green_Lantern]

21. also they don't realize when Muslims pray it's not silently...

To themselves.

[Diclotican]

48. liberation

liberation

A Christian would NOT be allowed NEAR the Kabaa, not to say Mecca.. In fact the City of Mecca is OFF LIMIT for everyone else, than muslims - and even parts of the muslem faith is suspectious in the eyes of the Mecca Athority, who is part of the "Whanabitt-sect" who rule Saudi-Arabia.. And to get a group of cristians into Kabaa to make a mass in the middle of Haj, is imposible... And even if they managed to get into Mecca, they would be teared lim from lim if they was going true with a mass... A million muslims would be that nice, to just trie to get them out, but would rather tear them apart in anger...

Diclotican

[Codeine]

60. self delete

[Llewlladdwr]

49. ...jackass Christian raising a stink in Mecca ...

You are aware that Christians are forbidden entrance to Mecca, right? And that for a non-Muslim, to be discovered in the city is punishable by death?

[liberation]

52. ... and that is exactly why that would make said christian a Jackass.

[Warpy]

65. Read the article, please

It was more of a sideshow atmosphere with tourists snapping pictures, hardly a solemn religious occasion.

Making an issue of it was a worse disruption.

[Llewlladdwr]

24. So you approve of the desecration of religious sites?

Because that's exactly what the Muslims in question were trying to do.

And no, Christians and Muslims do not worship the same god.

Perhaps you should check your own bigotry at the door before commenting on others.

[Warpy]

63. Any question that begins with "so" is a strawman

although few are as vicious as that one.

When is praying "desecration?"

And yes, it's the same god of Abraham. Educate yourself, try reading the bible instead of merely thumping it.

[Xenotime]

75. Bigotry and racism.

[fascisthunter]

95. yup

no way around it

[Socal31]

12. Someone wake me up when this world moves beyond

this Magic Man in the Sky nonsense.

[Green_Lantern]

15. why?/

People will just fight over something else.

[liberation]

18. Yeah, but this movie is getting old...

... I rather have people fight for real stuff, than for their imaginary friends in the sky.

[The Green Manalishi]

68. But *my* invisible friend in the sky can beat up *your* invisible friend in the sky!

:eyes:

[Abacus]

19. Saddam Hussein and Colonel Muammar Gaddafi both stopped off at Córdoba to prey at the former mosque

interesting typo

[Diclotican]

27. Green_Lantern

Green_Lantern

Sad to say, im pretty sure this was a test, or a provocation in one of the most holy week in any church year... The Easter is really important, and if the peopole responsible for "praying" in the muslim tradition had some sence of understanding, he could have used the other 51 weeks to provoce the cristians, withouth half the fuzz - and not to say, to be shown in most newspapers worldwide

This was clearly a provocation, and it is good - for the muslims that the spaniards this days, dosen't cut them into smal pieces and burn them at the steak - if human posible when they still is alive..


And for them, who dosen't understand, or maybe docen't care if a muslim is praying out loud in this church, who before was an moscee.. You either dosen't understand the sidifincase of the whole thing, or you dosen't have the slightest grip of the history of Spain, and why still today tentions between muslims and spaniards is there - and sometimes flares up... In Europe we have something called "history" who often is both bloody and given europe the "scars" of the old world.. When US got true their youth, then they might understand a little about what most of europe take for granted..

When The grand Moskee in Istanbul, the former biggest Church in the cristian world - Hagia Sophia is been used as a Shurch again, and that the semniary where the orthodox church in Tyrky is been used freely as sutch, and other parts who also was used by cristians in ancient times can be used freely... Then might the muslims pray in the grand Katerdral in Cordoba.. And I dosent se in the future no way of Hagia Sophia been used freely as that capasity...

This was a provocation, and they managed to provoce.. They could have used little more sense, to worship Allah at a former moskee....

Diclotican

[Green_Lantern]

31. I understand the Muslims here were trying to provoke

People. And they were also being assholes.

[Diclotican]

43. Green_Lantern

Green_Lantern

And they managed to provoce peopole really well to.. Still today, more than 600 year after Cordoba was been taken over by the cristans in Spain, the memories of the muslim rule in Spain is vivid, and in many cases painfully.. The spaniards was in war with the muslems for centuries before the whole of Spain was under one flag again.. And the reconcuest of Spain, is still a vivid part of what the "fabric" of spain is all about.. And most pepole should get a grip of Spains history before they try to say "o why not do that":..

It was a dumb stunt, who would fire back to all muslims living in Spain, legal as illegal... If they think it is not easy to live in Spain today, if the spaniards is beeing provoced, think about it then in a decade or two..

Diclotican

[paulsby]

32. interesting typo

lol

to "prey at the former mosque"

[dorkulon]

71. Yeah I caught that. Have to wonder if it was on purpose,

considering the dick-taters they're referencing.

[Quantess]

55. Sounds like yet another obnoxious turn of events.

Great way for Muslims to win over the hearts and minds of Europe.

[Cirque du So-What]

57. Well, it looks like this thread has sparked an intifada of its own here on DU

The most casual observer can look at the virtual 'fuck you's people are giving one another in this thread and realize that any hope of compromise on the issue of Muslims preying (sic) in this mosque-turned-church is a pipe dream. On an ostensibly 'democratic' board, some of you are virtually ripping the flesh off one another over this story. Doesn't exactly inspire hope over diplomatic efforts in the real world, does it?

[DRoseDARs]

62. I'm surprised by some of the bellyaching here defending religiously-based intolerance.

Funny, the Hagia Sophia was originally a Christian church for centuries until the Muslims took Constantinople and yet somehow the Turks have recently managed to find, in a small way certainly, a way to allow Christians to pray there again.

[paulsby]

85. oh spare me

it's THEIR fricking church.

i wouldn't expect a mosque to welcome somebody who was preaching the gospel of mormon out loud, nor would i expect a synagogue to welcome a bunch of monks doing gregorian chants and praying to jesus out loud

for pete' sake.

[DRoseDARs]

87. You're ignoring who built this "church" and was later violently usurped from it.

If the religion that built the place of worship is the current and historically only occupant then no, no other religions should have the expectation of co-occupancy, but that doesn't mean they can't ask for permission or be invited. There are many examples of Jews, Christians and Muslims opening their doors to each other for group worship, particularly in the United States on the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks.

However, this isn't the case here. This "church" in Cordoba started as a "mosque" while in Istanbul, that "mosque" started as a "church." That fact that you and others are whining about these Muslims isn't going to change these facts, nor is it going to change the fact that the Turks are taking to high ground here over their Spanish counterparts in offering a place for Christians to worship in what hasn't been their church for centuries. The Turks are acting more like grownups, while your heroes in Cordoba are acting like spoiled little brats pissed about your brothers and sisters wanting to enjoy the swing set too.

Just as I would expect Jews, Christians and Muslims to fucking get over themselves in Old Jerusalem for the sake of preserving the site as a whole, I would likewise expect current religious occupants of sites holy to other religions to have at least SOME tolerance of others' desire to likewise worship in peace.

[DRoseDARs]

90. My assertion about who built it first was incorrect re: post#11 and my reply post#89. n/t

[EFerrari]

73. Does no one have editors any more?

Saddam Hussein and Colonel Muammar Gaddafi both stopped off at Córdoba to prey at the former mosque, which comprises 300 yellow and red arches and 1,300 columns.

[fleabert]

74. General comment to thread: I live in a Muslim country- it's the same God.

anyone who disputes doesn't know what they are talking about.

ps- Jesus is also one of the pillars of Islam- you have to accept him as one of the prophets to be a Muslim (but they don't believe he was God incarnate, since they are monotheistic in the strictest interpretation of the word, no such thing as a trinity)

Still- same Abrahamic God. I encourage those who disagree to ask a Muslim.

[MellowDem]

78. To you and to Muslims it is...

but to many Christians, it is not. Muslims don't believe that Jesus was the Son of God, and that is a pretty darn important part of the Christian religion. Christians believe Jesus was God, in a way, trinity or not, and the fact that Muslims only think of him as one of many prophets effecitively makes the God they worship different. It all evovled from the same religion of Judaism, but the key word is evolved. The God that evolved is fundamentally different in each religion, even if they had the same origin.

So a Muslim may think it is all the same, but it all depends on one's perspective, and it certainly doesn't make them "right", any more than it makes them wrong. It is all faith and opinion, after all.

[MUAD_DIB]

82. Are Protestants Christians or heretics?

Do they worship the same God as the Catholics or do they do it in a different way?

Jews (most I should add) don't believe that Jesus is part of the Holy Trinity. If the did then they would be Christians...as the Muslims would be.

So I would suggest that all three pillars of the faith of God do indeed worship the same God; albeit it differently.

[paulsby]

84. commonly referred to as the "abrahamic religions"

because they worship the god of abraham

[MellowDem]

91. Actually, Protestants aren't considered Christians

by many Catholics. Just as Mormons aren't as well. The Mormon religion is a good comparison. Like Islam, it has an additional prophet and an additional book and considers itself to worship the same God, but many Christians don't consider them to.

I mean, I guess you could say they do it in a different way, but I would say it is a different God because their beliefs about God are fundamentally different, not in just how to worship God. The differences aren't huge, and they do share a common origin.

If they are worshipping the same God, many Christians wouldn't think Muslims and Jews are going to hell for their beliefs, much less other Christian denominations like Catholics and Baptists. I would have to assume that if Muslims believe that Christians and Jews worship the same God, they must be making it to heaven just like Muslims are according to Muslims.

[xsquid]

108. The catholic church DOES recognize protestants

as christians. If one converts to catholicism and has been baptised by a protestant religion they do not have to be baptized by the catholic church as they are baptized already. This is also from the catholic catechism from the vatican's site:

"Serious dissentions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church. . . . One cannot charge with sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church. . . . Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation. (Catechism, p. 216, sects. 817, 818, 819)"

So if some catholics think protestants are not christians then they are going against the church, personally I have not known any catholics that feel that way but have known plenty of protestants that feel that way about catholics. I was raised protestant by the way.

[fleabert]

86. i was raised baptist...i know the teachings.

Christians don't get to decide if it's the same god for Muslims, Muslims do. If Christians don't know how to read, then that is their problem. It's really clear in the tenets of each religion that the beginning story is exactly the same.

Muslims think Christians are wrong, and vice versa, it's a never-ending loop. Bring Jews into the discussion and the loop only widens. The similarity is that they are all talking about the same original story, different endings, hence, the same Creator.

I am not vested in any religion, so I don't have a horse in the race, but ask any muslim and they will say it's the same dude that started it all, just different interpretations of what happened next.

[MellowDem]

92. Christians do get to decide...

what they believe about what God they are worshipping. And many don't believe that Muslims and Jews are going to heaven, because they are not worshipping the same God. To them, it would be a false God.

I agree with you that most Muslims will say it is the same God, but many other religions don't think so is all I'm pointing out.

[fleabert]

97. whatever Christians believe about Islam is irrelevant...

muslims get to decide the parameters of their own religion. getting lost in semantics and intricacies of the different religions means nothing in the big picture- the story starts the same for all three. that is why they are all called 'Abrahamic religions', they all trace their roots, and God, to the same story.

[MellowDem]

99. It's not what Christians believe about Islam...

it is what Christians believe about Christianity. That's why it doesn't matter if Muslims think they are worshipping the same God when it comes to Christians and their own beliefs.

[fleabert]

106. that is not the argument here...

to say that the three Abrahamic religions do not worship the same God is just silly. So keep sounding silly- feel free. I, and others have tried to explain it to you, but you are unwilling or unable to understand that what you are arguing is unarguable. Believe what you want, but you are wrong. It's three branches from the same tree.

[fascisthunter]

96. raised orthodox christian and have had catholic school teaching... it's the same God

the bigots don't want to admit so... it's their problem

you are right

[fleabert]

98. thanks for the backup...

finding out that Jesus is one of the 'pillars' of islam was a surprise to me living here in the middle east- as was finding out that the Kaaba was built by Abraham... with most things among humans, we have more things in common than we do that separates us.

[fascisthunter]

104. the bigots want to feel exclusive and special... so they divide people

[happyslug]

76. This building has been a Church since 1236 AD

Worse, the Mosque, built in 784 apparently on foundation of a Church (Which in turn had been built in 600 AD on an old temple of Jupiter). The Great Mosque is NOT pointed to Mecca, as are almost every other Mosque, the reason for this seems to be the Church was NOT pointed to Mecca and since the foundation was solid and already built the Mosque was built facing SOUTH not Mecca.

For more on the Mosque:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mosque_of_C%C3%B3rdoba

During the Arab Conquest the Arabs (And later the Turks under the Ottoman Empire) would convert all the Churches of a city they took by Siege to be Mosque, but if the City surrendered without a fight the Churches would stay Christian. A major exception to this rule occurred when Constantinople was taken by the Turks in 1453. Hagia Sophia was converted but not to other churches. The Turkish Sultan wanted to minimize the change over from the last Byzantine Emperors to the Ottoman Sultan and an attempt by the Sultan to support those Orthodox who opposed any conciliation with the Roman Catholic Church. Another factor (and may be the main factor for the less known churches in Constantinople) also reflected that since the fourth crusade took Constantinople in 1204 the population had dropped drastically and was by 1453 made up of various semi-independent towns. Each of these "towns" had their own walls, and after the main walls were stormed by the Turks, the Turks took over the Churches that were under the Emperor's direct control, but as to these semi-independent towns if they surrendered as the Turkish forces approached them they kept their churches, but if they fought the churches were converted.

Please note Constantinople was an exception to the General Rule. Jerusalem for example fell to the Arabs peacefully in the 600s during the Arab Conquest AND again when Saladin took it in 1187 but the Franks who held it came to a deal to surrender it for a ransom thus again Jerusalem was NOT taken by Storm and thus the Christian Churches stayed Christian.

More on Hagia Sophia:
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Hagia_Sophia_%28Constantinople%29

Fall of Constantinople:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople

Saladin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin#Capture_of_Jerusalem

The Arabs tool Jerusalem in 638, but as part of an overall take over of Palestine (The Byzantine Empire decided to retreat rather then try to hold Jerusalem trying to avoid what happened in 614 when the Persians took Jerusalem by storm (The Persian were subsequent defeated and driven back to Persia this Byzantine-Persian rule was a long, almost 200 year off and on war and when Byzantine defeated the Persian both countries were exhausted by the effort and neither were ready to resist the first united attack from Arabia in history, they had been other attacks from Arabia but never as a united country).

More on Jerusalem:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem#Crusader.2C_Ayyubid.2C_and_Mamluk_period

Just going into WHY the Mosque became a Church. When the Arabs moved in, the Church of St Vincent was torn down and the Great Mosque built. When the Christians re-took the City they converted it to a Church. Both actions were statements as to who was ruling the city more then any religious significance.

This continues today, but as to Government Buildings then Churches. For example when the Soviet Red Army took Berlin in 1945 one of the first things they did was fly the Soviet Flag over the Reichstag AND the West German Government re-built it in 1956, even through the West Germany Capital was in Bonn.

For more on the Reichstag:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_building

[MellowDem]

79. It was a church before it was a mosque...

though probably it would have been condemend as a pagan church due to the fact that it was Visigothic and not Roman Catholic. I have been there, and it is has wonderful architecture. Andalusia was an interesting place.

[paulsby]

83. ah, a pixies moment

CHIEN! Andalusia!

[fascisthunter]

94. psssst... y'all believe in the same god, since there can only be one

except for believers of polytheism. This is silly