China's fears of rich nation 'climate conspiracy' at Copenhagen revealed

[Lars77]

Source: The Guardian

Rich nations furthered their "conspiracy to divide the developing world" at December's UN climate summit in Copenhagen, while Canada "connived" and the EU acted "to please the United States", according to an internal document from a Chinese government thinktank obtained by the Guardian.

The document, which was written in the immediate aftermath of Copenhagen but has only now come to light, provides the most candid insight yet into Chinese thinking on the fraught summit.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/feb/11/chinese-thinktank-copenhagen-document

[HeresyLives]

1. Sigh, I remember a time when Canada

wasn't seen as 'conniving'. :cry:

We have got to vote Harper out of office.

[WriteDown]

4. Canada will always be seen as conniving by China as long as they support ANY...

environmental regulation.

[HeresyLives]

5. No, normally we're friends with China.

Long-established relations and all that.

China is very big on the environment, altho you'd never know it by news reports on here. They are switching to environmental controls as fast as they can, but in a nation of 1.2 billion people, millions of whom are in dire poverty, it's not easy.

China is fast becoming a leader in green tech tho.

[WriteDown]

6. Yep, as these photos demonstrate...

[HeresyLives]

8. Bad photos can be taken anywhere, including

your own country. That says nothing about the nation as a whole.

[WriteDown]

9. Maybe the poisonous dog food says more. nt

[HeresyLives]

10. All countries including yours

have had scandals and recalls over tainted or contaminated food.

[WriteDown]

11. Where they were purposely adding poisonous material to fool nutrition value? nt

[HeresyLives]

12. I don't understand the constant attempts to villify China.

There are about 200 countries in the world, and they all have their good and bad points. It is absurd, and a waste of time, to try and make it into some comic-book good vs evil contest.

Yes, foods have been deliberately adulterated in all countries, and thruout history.

[WriteDown]

13. Please provide links. nt

[HeresyLives]

14. You're making the charge, so do your own work.

[WriteDown]

16. I did? I provided photos of my assertion...

You made an assertion that other nations have been caught doctoring food with poisonous material to fool nutrition scales. You have yet to prove that.

[HeresyLives]

17. Your assertion is that China is some kind of an evil empire

bent on killing everybody, whether by pollution or by adulterating food.

A few bad photos, available in any country, and a comment on dog food when adulteration of food has always been common everywhere doesn't prove any kind of argument.

Perhaps you could spend more time worrying about the competition you now have on the world stage, and why it bothers you so much you are trying to villify 1.2 billion people as 'out to get you'.

Meantime, this will get you started on your search.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adulterant

[WriteDown]

19. So you can't prove what you asserted?

Not a surprise. Please provide a link of another country which purposefully poisoned food to adulterate nutrition tests. I'll wait with baited breath.

On a side note, is your family from China, or maybe a significant other? The way you fly off the handle on any criticism of China is a bit extreme.

[HeresyLives]

20. I think you're very frightened.

Your attempt at silliness with this shows that very clearly.

You have been given a wiki entry to start your search, the rest is up to you.

No, I'm not Chinese, and neither is my family.

Nor have I 'flown anywhere'.

Simple factual information. I can discuss India, Brazil or Russia if you like. They are the other members of BRIC, but since the thread topic is China, that's what I'm discussing.

It's an interesting country. Don't let your fear prevent you from learning about it.

[WriteDown]

21. So you can't provide a single example?

I am never frightened about a debate where my opponent has no supporting material. And I'm sorry, a non specific wiki entry doesn't cut it, haha. G'day to you.

[HeresyLives]

22. Like I said, you're very frightened, and have lost track

and control of the topic and the argument.

So you run off. Very wise of you.

Hopefully you'll go look at the mess Greece is in.

Good day.

[WriteDown]

25. Are you a hypnotist?

I think you need the swinging watch for that. :)

[HeresyLives]

27. Facts don't need hypnosis.

Just a rational mind.

Go look at the glory that WAS Greece.

[WriteDown]

28. Maybe a spinning shiny coin.

:)

[HeresyLives]

30. Sounds like it's already been done to you long ago.

[WriteDown]

31. It was a Chinese coin and I developed lead poisoning though.

:)

[HeresyLives]

33. Good, now go donate some money to Greece.

;)

[WriteDown]

35. I'll let Germany handle that.

:)

[Peace Patriot]

23. Thank you for that info! Damnation, our corpo-fascist press is useless!

There are so many subjects on which we in the U.S. cannot get an accurate picture of the world, unless we go out of our way to research and investigate--something most people don't have a lot of time to do--and even then it's hard, because you have to read alternative news sources regularly and evaluate them, as well, on accuracy and reliability--and you have to sort of "triangulate"--read alternative sites, read foreign news sources, if you can find them, that are not just the Associated Pukes (CIA) in disguise, and read the corpo-fascist 'news' bullcrap straight from Langley, then compare them, as to facts, spin, black holes where info should be, focus, editorial choice of issues and stories, naked bias, subtle bias, and so on.

It is not an easy task being a U.S. citizen and being well-informed. I marvel that our people are as well-informed as they are, and that is no thanks to the corpo-fascist 'news' monopolies; it is thanks to the internet.

I've had to kind of specialize, in my interests as an American, because I can't track the spin and the lies on everything. I've followed, a) the vast and swift change in our vote counting system from transparent (vote counting that everyone can see and understand) to non-transparent (voting machines run on 'TRADE SECRET' code owned and controlled by a handful of rightwing corporations, with virtually no audit-recount controls), and b) the big leftist democracy movement that has swept Latin America and U.S. efforts to sabotage and stop it.

These two issues alone have been a revelation as to corpo-fascist 'news' monopoly malfeasance and malevolence.

I did not know that China "is fast becoming a leader in green tech," and I would appreciate any links you can provide, or clues to sources. Environmentalism is an issue that has consumed a good part of my life, and I am very interested in it. I am particularly interested in how this is occurring in China--a country that remains a mystery to me in many ways. I have no idea, for instance, how they make decisions, and/or how they reconcile what appears to be rampant capitalism with communism--and I would like to understand more.

Thanks for the tip!

[HeresyLives]

26. Sure, here's one.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/31/business/energy-environment/31renew.html?hp=&pagewanted=all

and here are several others:

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&source=hp&q=china+lead+green+tech&meta=&aq=f&oq=china+lead+green+tech&rlz=1W1WZPC_en&fp=b4df0e9520ce60db

The news doesn't get much play tho.

[Imajika]

36. Are you joking?

"China is very big on the environment, although you'd never know it by news reports on here."

Seriously man? Are you just having a go at us?

China is NOT "big on the environment" in any way, shape or form.

China is probably the worst environmental offender going. The only reason they are "switching to environmental controls" at all is because they've polluted so badly that in many cities their people are rioting. In many places China is literally one big environmental train wreck. They have no choice but to try to clean up some of the mess they've made because it is beginning to cause actual civil unrest and is quite simply not sustainable. They are doing the absolute minimum, and doing it only because in some places they have absolutely no other option.

No, China is not "big on the environment" at all.

What China demands are things it knows it will never get, which it then knows will scuttle any chance at a new climate treaty. China does not want to abide by any mandates itself, only targets, and not real targets at that.

I am not saying the US, Canada or anyone else is much, if any, better, but China most assuredly is NOT "big on the environment".

[Peace Patriot]

37. "China Leading Global Race to Make Clean Energy"--NYT

"TIANJIN, China — China vaulted past competitors in Denmark, Germany, Spain and the United States last year to become the world’s largest maker of wind turbines, and is poised to expand even further this year.

China has also leapfrogged the West in the last two years to emerge as the world’s largest manufacturer of solar panels. And the country is pushing equally hard to build nuclear reactors and the most efficient types of coal power plants."

(MORE)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/31/business/energy-environment/31renew.html?hp=&pagewanted=all

----------------------

It looks like there are two sides to this story, Imajika. You've got a lot of hot words--"China is literally one big environmental train wreck," etc.--have you got any links that indicate that China is NOT addressing their environmental problems--caused by very rapid industrialization, rather like London in the 1800s--or is not addressing them sincerely (only under duress of riots)? But I think they could be sincere even at that--even if it's taken civil unrest to wake up the leadership. Anyway, I don't understand the basis for your peremptory dismissal of what may be a new trend in China toward environmental consciousness and action. I don't understand or know much about China myself. I am truly baffled as to their governmental system and how they make decisions, and also as to how they reconcile rampant capitalism with communism. But it does seem that, from time to time, the Chinese government undertakes big campaigns, rather suddenly, and pursues them with great determination and fervor. Could this be one of those times?

[madville]

40. You are hilarious

Just because China MANUFACTURES some green technology that is the reason they are the world leader on the environment? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

The manufacturing processes are what is so polluting, not the finished product.

[Peace Patriot]

41. Could be true--they're just trying to profiteer on green technology--and have NOT

taken their environmental problems seriously. I am just SEEKING information. I don't trust "impressions" that are given to us by our corpo-fascist press. They have lied too often--and in devious ways as well as obvious ones. For instance, right now--and for five years going--they have been trying to convince their 'news' consumers that the leftist DEMOCRACY movement that has swept Latin America is dictatorial. I've looked into this myself, with intensive research, and have concluded that we are being subjected to the "Big Lie" technique--assertion of the opposite of the truth and constant repetition of that "Big Lie" to make it SEEM true. What has swept Latin America is, in truth, democracy, not tyranny. It is the U.S. and its local rightwing agents in Latin America who are the tyrants, both of them in the service of the rich and the corporate. This "Big Lie"--that Latin American leftists are tyrannical--has resemblances to the WMD "Big Lie" about Iraq, and it worries me that our benighted political establishment might be gearing up for an actual war in South America (--there is certainly evidence of a big U.S. military buildup in Colombia and the region, as well).

So I've learned to apply that lesson--the intense "Big Lie" type of lying that our government and its copy-and-paste media have been guilty of--to other issues--that what we may be getting is yet another "Big Lie" about yet another country, or region, or issue. In my mind, I reverse the impression that the corpo-fascist 'news' is trying to give me, and ask: Is the truth the opposite of this impression? It is a quite interesting analytical technique with which to fight being propagandized and brainwashed.

So all I'm saying here is that I don't know what the truth is, I don't trust the "usual sources" and I think we should fundamentally challenge the impressions that we are given and seek the truth. I have the SAME impression that you do--that China is an "environmental train wreck," that it is trying to avoid addressing environmental impacts, and that the government is tyrannical. But I think we need to ask: Where do we get this information--or these impressions--from? Are they true? Are there other things we need to know to make an objective assessment of China and its policies? Are there trends within their rather mysterious government processes and financial/corporate establishment that will erupt in China suddenly announcing a "Five Year Plan" to go "green" (and mean it)?

I admitted not knowing much about China, but I am not willing to simply accept "impressions" from our corpo-fascist press as to what is going on there. Unfortunately, it's very difficult for us here in the U.S., with our intensely propagandistic press, to be current and well-versed on every subject, everywhere. I have sought out information on China, and have gained the further impression that its very rapid industrialization has had horrendous impacts on workers, on rural people, especially small farmers, on the environment and health, AND on what I would call the higher or best ideals of communism (for instance, they--whoever 'they' are, in China--are permitting a few people to become very wealthy, while the great majority still wallows in poverty). But I don't believe that I have enough information to really understand such a huge country and how it works, and what is, in reality, going on. 'They' have obviously decided to compete with western powers on the industrialization front--and are using an in-place tyrannical (non-democratic) political/government system, inherited from Mao, to force China into this competition. Whether it is actually supported by most people, I don't know. I suspect--I have the IMPRESSION--that it is a national pride undertaking and does have considerable support--from a people who have no democratic traditions whatsoever, except for the communist notions of equal wealth and the common welfare (which, in countries with no democratic traditions, such as Tsarist Russia and warlord China, quickly became tyranny). So, WILL China undertake a 5- year Plan or a 10-year Plan, to "green" the country--and will that, too, be a national pride enterprise? Yes, I think that could very well happen--and HeresyLive's comment indicated that it might be happening. So I asked for links and further info.

Why are you ridiculing my search for the truth as "hilarious"? I don't think the production of "green" products is necessarily evidence of a trend toward environmental consciousness, but it could be. Why dismiss it? You seem to have an agenda of dissing China, rather than an intent to gather facts and make a considered judgment.

[Quantess]

38. "China is very big on the environment"?

That flies in the face of everything I have heard about China, including a relative who lived there and said it was very polluted.

[Reterr]

39. Mine too and it isn't the Chinese people I have any problem with at all

The Chinese government is a whole other thing. I think they have one of the most fascistic, brutal, corrupt governments out there which rides roughshod over the Chinese and Tibetan people and has very little respect for the environment.

[endless october]

2. China's only afraid that they will be inspected.

cap and trade is not going to work.

we need to go non-CO2 on our own with a massive electrical infrastructure initiative. pay for it by ending interventionism.

[apnu]

3. Since when is China not rich? (nt)

[bossy22]

7. they are generally a poor country

they put on a good facade....remember close to 150 million people in that country live on only $1 a day

[Psephos]

32. China is sitting on $2 trillion in cash. US debt = $12 trillion. Kinda says it all. n/t

[HeresyLives]

34. China is also on a buying spree.

The money they have is cash reserves, not all American, but they are buying up as much as they can with it.

[LeftHander]

15. They also see nothing wrong with Lead and Cadmium in toys....nt

[HeresyLives]

18. The company that sells the toys

is responsible for what they are made of. Change the requirements.

[nyy1998]

24. The requirements are not the problem

It's the enforcement. China has some very strict regulation but they do a terrible job of enforcing it, hence the lower quality of good/lower prices then their American counterparts. Granted,it's not the only reason(someone alluded above to cheap labor), but it is a large reason. The Chinese government knows this, why else would they not float their own currency?

[HeresyLives]

29. The retailer is responsible for the product.

They give the specifications when they order the product, and checking up on it is part of that responsibility.

They can also benefit by selling junk, so the manufacturer isn't the only one at fault.

Yes, it's hard to ride herd on 1.2 billion people, goodness knows the death penalty is certainly a stiff enough punishment, but it doesn't always warn people off apparently.

China's economic advantage is it's population, so of course they will use it to get ahead. Every country works with every edge it can find. It's no advantage to them to run their own economy to suit other nations, so they determine the currency.