Cross found at Air Force Academy's Wicca center

[brooklynite]

Source: LA Times

Reporting from Denver - The Air Force Academy, stung several years ago by accusations of Christian bias, has built a new outdoor worship area for pagans and other practitioners of Earth-based religions.

But its opening, heralded as a sign of a more tolerant religious climate at the academy in Colorado Springs, Colo., was marred by the discovery two weeks ago of a large wooden cross placed there.

"We've been making great progress at the Air Force Academy. This is clearly a setback," said Mikey Weinstein, a 1977 graduate of the academy. He is founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, and has often tangled with the academy over such issues.

Although he credits the academy's superintendent, Air Force Lt. Gen. Michael Gould, with an improved climate of religious tolerance, Weinstein criticized other academy officials as trivializing the incident, which he said was not revealed to cadets.

Read more: http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-na-wicca3-2010feb03,0,3367750.story

---

Fighting to protect American values...

[eleny]

1. Can you imagine if they ever find a pentagram in the xtian chapel?

Cue the "O fortuna". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhG-d_YnhhU

[baldguy]

36. That would be a Congressional investigation.

[sui generis]

2. isn't it ironic that placing a warding totem in a place of worship

might be considered something akin to the very practice of "magic" they think they're defending the world from.

Oh poor baby jeebus - needs feeble humans to fight his pink unicorn wars.

And even more ironic it's doing things like that which PROVE we're descended from apes.

[ieoeja]

3. Now that is a stretch.

In what way does a man and a pair of boys dressed in robes using physical symbols, moving their hands in ritual fashion and chanting while lighting incense and candles resemble magic?

:evilgrin:

[SpiralHawk]

10. "Hmmm - gotta thimk that one over." - xCommander AWOL Bush (R)

[rbixby]

13. Or how about

using bread and wine as a form of symbolic ritualized cannibalism? If that's not creepy I don't know what is.

[arikara]

14. As is

worshiping the symbol of tortured man. I've always found the crucifix to be a very disturbing totem.

[provis99]

21. symbolic? If you're Catholic, communion is ACTUAL cannibalism

Read up on transsubstantiation.

[Cirque du So-What]

40. Careful with that magick

It's been known to induce transsubstantiation of matter, followed by ritual necro-cannibalism.

[Ignis]

48. Ooh, well played.

:thumbsup:

[tomm2thumbs]

4. way to prove their point -

intolerance and self-righteousness coming from whom again? I can't imagine...

[caraher]

6. The retort is probably, "At least it wasn't burning..."

I wish I could say I'm surprised

[tomm2thumbs]

7. point taken

of course they might have run back to get the can of kerosene and were discovered before finishing up

[superconnected]

31. This artical doesn't sound right. The wiccan's I know can handle any religious

symbols without getting their panties in a bunch.

This sounds like Christians planted the cross and the new paper reporter to make a story so people can know there are Wiccan worship sites on military bases. Just guessing but it doesn't sound like something the Wiccan's would make a big deal out of.

Many Wiccan's are former Christians and a good friend of mine holds dual faiths - she believes Christs was very Wiccan-like. I was surprised because I thought he was rather Buddhist-like. I just don't see finding a cross being a problem for the Wiccan's.

[The abyss]

37. Well stated! Well observed!

[foxfeet]

5. It was only a matter of time until some douchenozzle did something like this.

Next up: a severed pig's head in the Muslim worship space.

[boppers]

8. What kind of a cross?

The cross, as a spiritual symbol, predates Christianity...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_cross

[winyanstaz]

15. That is correct...you see...the Christian cross IS a Pagan symbol...

It is the four directions with a longer stem so it can be held in rituals and parades...and it predates the rise of the Christian faith by at least a century.
Like so many other stolen ideas and holidays..such as Christmas/Yule and Easter/Ostara holidays...the Christians also stole the Pagan cross and claimed it as their own.
Never mind that the Romans did NOT use the cross that is seen in Christian churches today..they used a "T" shaped cross to crucify people on.
The original pagan crosses can be found in Ireland and etc today and were a cross with a circle around the stem..now known as the "celtic cross".
So while I am sure some bent Christian thought they would cause some trouble for the Pagans..they used the wrong symbol number one...and they are using ritual magic...number two...and I am sure if Jesus was alive today he would be ashamed of them.

[boppers]

22. It goes back to the Neolithic and Paleolithic eras...

That's 18,000-7,000BC, predating Christianity, Judaism, indeed, most "modern" religions.

If Jesus were alive today I think he'd find the whole cross thing rather annoying, he spent most of his adult life teaching a set of messages... and the thing these people pick out for worship is a symbol of a single, really bad, day he had?

[Guilded Lilly]

34. Exactly.

Only the narrow minded would see this as a supposed threat. Having a cross involved in a Wiccan or Pagan sanctuary is nothing out of the ordinary. In fact, it is very much *at home* to the heart of Pagan beliefs.

It is not a threat, nor a particularly intelligent act.
It also shows how very far some Christians have to go before they live what they preach.

[NashVegas]

35. Cross Predates Christ By a Couple K Years, I've Seen It Claimed

Wouldn't be surprised.

[T Wolf]

9. Rape and bigotry - hallmarks of Amerika's military. The AFA is just a blatant example.

Religion should be banned from any government entity - and that is what the academy is.

[Plucketeer]

18. I could NOT agree more!

The hokey notion that pilots are "closer" to god is truly laughable and loathable, all in one. :puke:

[PacerLJ35]

28. So are you saying people in the military shouldn't have access to religious sites?

I've never heard this "notion" that you speak about...the only reference I've seen of pilots being "closer to god" is perhaps in the poem "High Flight"....but that's a poem.

[Plucketeer]

38. I said no such thing!

What STINKS is the academy's PUSHING of religion as an essential part of being a good soldier. THAT stinks. And yes, that poem is very much associated with our USAF. Maybe not officially, but certainly. I'm a veteran of the USAF and I served my country with every bit as much zeal and allegiance as anyone who worships some supposed superior entity.

[humblebum]

44. Um? Would you care to examine the history of the Russian and Chinese militaries

and the role of radical atheism. More people killed at the hands of atheists than all religious wars combined.

[madmom]

11. What they should have done is chop it up and use it for a bonfire, what would the

'christians" have said about that?

[greiner3]

12. So someone needs to put a large straw broom;

In the xtian's area.

Just saying.

[winyanstaz]

16. while the impish side of me might agree...

to the broom or even a pentagram...the practical and peaceful Pagan side of me says...it would just escalate the madness.
Far better to just throw love at them...it will drive them crazier :P

[Fumesucker]

20. You cannot fill a cup that is already full..

These people can't get any crazier, they're already full metal wingnut.

[winyanstaz]

39. heheh....good point ;)

[Ignis]

45. "full metal wingnut"

:spray:

Why do you hate my monitor and want to make it wet?

[Fumesucker]

49. I'm guessing that you haven't heard of the Wingularity?

It's like a singularity but for wingnuttery.

They get so crazy they disappear from space and time.

http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=21331

I believe that the mistake observers make when looking for peak-wingnut is that they measure wingnuttery against a set of numbers. Wingnuttery can not be measured by any metric by which sane people would ordinarily measure other phenomena. I believe that we have always seen and known peak-wingnut. However, because of its size we are incapable of seeing all of it at one time. We are only permitted a glimpse of wingnuttery depending on its positioning relative to reality at any given time. This positioning simply can not be predicted or measured. In fact, it is irrelevant what position wingnuttery occupies relative to reality because wingnuttery is everywhere at all times. And it always has been.

Wingers will never be more or less sane, or more or less stupid. They will always be as bat-shit insane and pig-ignorant as they always have been. The only factor to be considered is our perception of them. It’s not that they get crazier and stupider. It’s that each time they say or do anything, we perceive them as advancing teh crazy/stupid ball one step further. This is not the case; we merely witness one more tentacle of an infinitely insanely stupid entity.

[Ignis]

50. Oh, that was delicious. I love this bit:

This punchy term nicely captures the way that rightwing argumentation has become gradually detached from independently recognized reality and into a state of total unselfawareness. The pace of change is also accelerating. Just weeks before the election I never could guess that wingnuts would organize nationally around an act that they call teabagging. Imagine being the traveler from the future of three months hence trying to convince Americans of our semantically awkward future. How would you even start?

[Fumesucker]

51. Yep, that's possibly the snarkiest blog on da' tubez..

Some of the commentariat there should be writing for The Daily Show or the Colbert Report..

I've laughed until I hurt from reading that blog more times than I can remember.

[izquierdista]

30. Or a hypodermic

You know, bring them up to date with modern execution methods.

[Skittles]

17. lol

the deluded fucking with the deluded

[NOW tense]

19. Well now it is just like every other

Earth based religious center in Europe, it has a cross in it.

[BlueCollar]

23. a parable?

A man was being tailgated by a stressed-out woman on a busy boulevard. Suddenly the light turned yellow in front of him. He did the right thing, stopping at the crosswalk, even though he could have beaten the red light by accelerating through the intersection.

The tailgating woman was furious and honked her horn, screaming in frustration, as she missed her chance to get through the intersection, dropping her cell phone and make-up.

As she was still in mid-rant, she heard a tap on her window and looked up into the face of a very serious police officer. The officer ordered her to exit her car with her hands up.

He took her to the police station where she was searched, fingerprinted, photographed and placed in a holding cell. After a couple of hours a policeman approached the cell and opened the door. She was escorted back to the booking desk where the arresting officer was waiting with her personal effects.

He said, "I'm very sorry for this mistake. You see, I pulled up behind your car while you were blowing your horn, flipping off the guy in front of you and cussing a blue streak at him. I noticed the 'What Would Jesus Do?' and 'Follow Me to Sunday School' bumper stickers, the 'Choose Life' license plate holder and the chrome plated Christian fish emblem on the trunk.


So, naturally...I assumed you had stolen the car."

[PADemD]

24. Great Story!

[superconnected]

32. hahahahahah good one!

:rofl:

[nolabear]

25. Imagine having a religion that worships life and finding an execution device on your sacred ground.

That this is an insult and a desecration is clear.

[TommyO]

41. I've never seen it put this way before, and it's spot on!

[Ignis]

46. "execution device"

Yeah, that one always struck me as a bit odd. As Bill Hicks said:

A lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. You think when Jesus comes back he's gonna want to see a cross? That's kinda like going up to Jackie Kennedy Onassis with a rifle pendant on.

:D

[demigoddess]

26. I've lived in colo sprgs and I know the AF Academy has been open to civilians, and the

people who live in colo sprgs have often had bad attitude about 'witches' in the area. One nearby town was pointed out as the center of a bunch of witches!!OMG!! The police saw some teen age graffiti and decided there were evil satanists roaming around. And they have some of the biggest mega churches around.

[LiberalFighter]

27. How can they provide worship for all faiths? It should be all or none.

Preferably none!! Let the community provide the worship resources off campus.

[jobwithout]

53. Oh for fucks sake!

So do you really think that they should provide worship for every faith no matter how obscure? Me thinks you object too much.

[PacerLJ35]

29. There's a simple answer to this incident...

Investigate and find out who did it, and then discipline them. Should be fairly simple...no politicizing it, no condemning the entire organization, just go find the individual (or individuals) and give them their due.

[gimama]

33. Holy-Moly!!!

Great discussion..!
That's all I can say.:)

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

42. A cross at a Wiccan site? Is that like finding

a condom in a Catholic church parking lot?

It sounds like there was no damage, like graffiti or vandalism, so yeah, this seems like a minor thing. Then again, I don't pay a lot of attention to religions, even the one I was raised in.

:hi:

edit for spelling

[brooklynite]

43. Actually, its more like finding a Pentagram drawn on the Catholic Altar

The symbols are all meaningless to me, but I can expect the adherents to erupt in outrage if it happened.

[Ignis]

47. I'd say it's more akin to finding a swastika at a synagogue.

But then again, most people aren't willing to see bigotry that doesn't affect them personally.

So it goes.

[panzerfaust]

52. Believe, or Burn

Thus saith the Lord.

[Still Blue in PDX]

54. Most Pagans whom I know take that sort of Christian behavior in stride.

The Christians have been stealing our stuff for centuries. :eyes: Just proves their lack of originality.

[jmowreader]

55. I really doubt an Air Force Academy cadet did this

To assume an Air Force Academy cadet did this you would have to assume said cadet had time to go to the Fort Carson wood crafts shop, make a cross, bring it back to the Academy and plant it in the ground without anyone noticing. With the class load those guys have? No. Colorado Springs is full of fundamentalists who have access to saws and pickup trucks. I have a very high degree of confidence some civilian who thinks his God is going to evaporate should anyone believe on a different one, built the cross and put it there.

There's only one way to deal with this: check a chain saw out of the Outdoor Recreation rental on Fort Carson, use it to cut the cross up, and hold a community-wide weenie roast.

[AlienGirl]

56. Bring it to lost-and-found, and put an ad in the paper that someone must've misplaced their cross

Act as though you assume this is not a hostile act. Then invite the various Christian groups in the Academy to a potluck--demistify paganism a little, make them see you as ordinary, nice people.

Tucker

[Green_Lantern]

57. we can't preach religious tolerance

And then ridicule Catholics and Christians for their beliefs.

A better route is to look beyond religious literalism and look at the common ground religions share.

We really need to stop belittling each other for being in differing religions.