Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

[mdmc]

Source: AP

WASHINGTON – Senate Democrats passed a landmark health care bill Thursday that could define President Barack Obama's legacy and usher in near-universal medical coverage for the first time in the country's history.



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul

---

(Sen.H.Reid, "A small step toward Teddy's dream of universal health care.")........................Merry Christmas!

[dipsydoodle]

1. Does that mean

you'll have equivalent of the either UK's National Health System covering everyone for conception to grave or one of the similar European ones ? :sarcasm:

Anything less then you've been shafted.:sarcasm:

[pattmarty]

10. AND, can I hear an AMEN to that?????????

[No Elephants]

2. Merry Christmas, health insurers and Big Pharma. You did yourself proud.

[ixion]

3. what a load of crap... Merry f'n xmas insurance companies

you are now quasi federal agencies with the power of the IRS to enforce your bill collection.

Hallelujah!

:puke:

[Laelth]

4. +1

Kill the bill.

Forcing people to buy insurance is no more the answer to a failed health care system than forcing people to buy houses is the solution to homelessness.

:dem:

-Laelth

[BluDemocratGirl]

77. THEY AIN'T THROUGH YET!

Representatives from the Senate and the House got to come together and try to compromise. It's not too late for to bring the public option back to the table. The president is NOT gonn sign the bill UNTIL January.

[Ihaterush]

80. THE HOUSE BILL IS BETTER

[Laelth]

86. Good. Then there's still time to convince people to ...

Kill the bill.

Forcing people to buy insurance is no more the answer to a failed health care system than forcing people to buy houses is the solution to homelessness.

:dem:

-Laelth

[CreekDog]

45. that was easy to say

and no doubt it saved you valuable time otherwise wasted reading the legislation.

[blackbear79]

59. and coal in our stockings...bah humbug

regardless of this mornings Christmas massacre...Merry Christmas everyone.

[southern_belle]

5. k & r n/t

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

6. It's not perfect

not even close.

Maybe even a net loss.

But it can be fixed in the future.

Just like NAFTA.

:sarcasm:

[ixion]

7. yeah, and the unPATRIOTic Act

:sarcasm:

[pattmarty]

11. And banking..............

[pink-o]

81. And Welfare to Work...

And Medicare Part II

[lenegal]

36. That is what I tell the whiners. It can be fixed in the future

For some, it is all or nothing. No in between.

[Zhade]

75. Whiners? Fuck you.

NT!

[AlbertCat]

42. But it can be fixed in the future.

Uh huh....

It took since the '60's (and medicare) to get this. Like they haven't had time to fix it already. How much time do we need?

I guess our children's children will get a plan where the Ins. companies only get 10% of their income! MERRY CHRISTMAS...2030!

[dana_b]

48. true - "fixed in the future"

is a pipe dream. We have 60 Dems/Socialist in the Senate, a majority in the House and a Dem Pres. When will it be better than this in the future? When will the time be better than now to get real reform? Whatever.. it doesn't matter anymore anyway.

Merry Christmas everyone.

[CreekDog]

8. This is the right outcome

I'll grant that it lacks many needed things, but the breadth of the measure's regulation and the expansion of funding for medical care makes this an historic occasion and an important step in getting universal health care --and universal regulation of insurance nationwide.

[pattmarty]

13. See above posts 6, 7 and 11.

[CreekDog]

15. no change in the status quo would be a huge failure

i reiterate that this is the right outcome for the Senate Bill and the most important step taken towards universal health care and universal regulation of health insurance since Medicare.

or maybe you have 44 more years to wait for something better?

[pattmarty]

16. I am 63 now, so no I won't have 44 more years. You know on this..........

..........Xmas eve in 2009 that ALL the Europeans and MOST of Asia are laughing at the "fucking stupid Americans" yet again. Next to the rest of the industrialized world, the United States is a fucking joke. We have the largest military and pretty much nothing else as far as healthcare, various regulations (financial, utility, educational) and other protections that MOST industrialized nations have. We are Mexico in red, white and blue. Merry fucking Xmas, and (as it is looking) a not so happy new year. Oh, I don't know where you got your 44 year figure, but in 1948 Truman tried and failed to get national healthcare. So in my math that's 51 yrs. If we have to wait longer to get it finally fucking right, so be it.

[CreekDog]

18. Mexico has universal health care/socialiized medicine

if only we were Mexico.

I hate to jump on this, but I have to say your misunderstanding of that completely undermines your post.

And in the absence of a single payer or good universal health care system, IT IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT that there be tighter regulation of insurance companies and this bill means there will be.

But it's not that you oppose it, it's that you truly don't understand that.

[pattmarty]

19. Look, I didn't use Mexico because it didn't/did have a healthcare............

...system. I used it to make my point that WE are slowly becoming like Mexico, mostly poor and rich with not much in between. I see I should have made it clearer or not used the metaphor. I god damn do understand the problem. Get rid of this "bill" and pass regulatory legislation on ALL the insurance companies. First and foremost by taking their "get out of jail free card" their anti trust provision away from them (this was in the House bill, you know). Put common sense regulations on them like many other business' that serve the public. There are an awful lot of things that could be done instead of giving them a multi billion giveaway (and with virtually no oversight). Might be it's you that truly doesn't "understand that".

[CreekDog]

21. I understand it, I just have no confidence that those things will be done

so I'll support this in the interim.

that's the thing opponents don't understand.

[aquart]

53. Regulation only works if it's enforced.

You know, like banking regulation.

[pattmarty]

66. totally agree. In whatever legislation that finally passes, there will........

...........be some form of regulations/laws on the insurance companies. AND, there will have to be an agency or existing agency with enough personal to "do the job" of overseeing the insur companies. My FINAL position on this is that we scrap this bill and legislate as strong of regulations/laws that we can on the companies for now, and immediately start a campaign (kinda like the right wing does) that pounds the "call to arms" for Medicare for all and get all liberal groups and grass root support for this (which put this way, I believe we could) push for a "final" solution to our healthcare problem. In the interim I could live with strong regulations that would enforce costs and rules for insurance.

[CreekDog]

69. actually the banking regulations were weakened, this would impose regulation on health care

and doubting the enforcement is not a reason not to regulate (where the hell am i anymore?) :wtf:

i mean, they barely enforce the laws against murder in SF, hardly arresting anybody. maybe we shouldn't bother to have laws saying it's illegal. i mean, i'm just following your line of reasoning.

[SergeStorms]

20. No.........

This bill is a huge failure. No change in the status quo would be stasis, treading water, kissing grandma. You seem to think there's going to BE a second, or possibly a third step beyond this. You're wrong. It took an almost perfect alignment of the stars to get THIS piece of crap passed, yet you think there's going to be far greater Democratic majorities in the future to correct the many and massive mistakes of THIS bill? Nope, ain't gonna' happen, and we're going to be stuck with this piece of garbage. And believe me, it'll get WORSE rather than better. If you can't see that then you don't know much about our government's track record, or you're very naive.

[CreekDog]

22. i don't think any of those things

in the absence of better legislation i'd rather have this than nothing.

even if it is never improved, i'd still rather have this bill pass than nothing at all.

and another reason i'm not confident it will all be fixed is that Democrats are likely to lose seats in 2010.

so your impression of what i think is pretty much completely at odds with reality.

[pattmarty]

67. Totally agree.

[AllyCat]

37. With this new fist of power, the insurance companies are NOT going to give anything up

in the years to come. This bill is cement for their stronghold on our health. Wish I shared your optimism. Hope I am eating crow.

[CreekDog]

43. the law will end recissions, denial of coverage and denial of treatment for preexisting conditions

and instead of charging one person 11 times more for insurance than another, it will be basically three times accounting for age.

whatever it isn't, those things are new and they are needed as long as people use health insurance to get their medical care.

what else would you propose for people's protection until we get a better system --nothing?

[tpsbmam]

62. And you're just fine with all of that......

My choices are going to be pay maybe twice as much for age and definitely 3 times as much for preexisting conditions for insurance I can guarantee I won't be able to afford at current rates or pay the government $750 a year that I don't have to pay now. Oh yeah, that's much better than I have now. :sarcasm:

I understand your POV and appreciate your optimism, I just don't agree with them in this case.

If this ends up for me as it has the potential of ending up, I'm going to be as pissed at the Dems as any Republican you know.

[CreekDog]

68. I'm more fine with that than I am with the status quo

I think I've been pretty clear on that.

I've also been pretty clear before that I supported Medicare for all and/or a single payer system of some sort. If that were available to vote on this morning, I would have been advocating passage just as strongly.

I will support just about ANYTHING over nothing so long as it helps folks get medical care and not go bankrupt in the process. That's this.

Not doing this right now is doing nothing --sorry, but it just is. I can't support that.

[tpsbmam]

89. As long as the remedy isn't worse than the illness......

I hope you're right. I think with the greater power they've endowed the insurance companies with and the exorbitant rates they already charge (and can then charge me 50% more on), not enough in the bill to control insurance companies, rates & abuses, and the many other flaws that have been noted a billion times I'll just have to wait and see.

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. We've all seen how health insurers have behaved in the past. It doesn't imbue me with lots of confidence for the future. I will NOT be a happy ex-Democrat if this ends up with me having insurance bills I can't pay or having to pay the government $750 for the privilege of not having insurance. So I just hope you're right.

[CreekDog]

90. you're worried they will charge you 50% more after the bill? they can do it today!

depending upon your state, they could end your coverage and/or jack up the rates 12 times what they are right now.

the bill actually imposes rules nationwide for the first time, regulating how much that insurance company must pay for actual medical care from the premium dollars they collect.

and stipulating that your rates would not be based on your health care, but based on your community and your age and a few other factors but overall not vary more than three times than the cheapest rates --older people currently pay about 11 times what younger folks pay for insurance.

in the absence of a system to replace private insurance, these new regulations ARE A MUST. it would be insane to turn them down knowing that we will wait sometime before a single payer even has a chance of being voted on.

yet people here are arguing to do just that.

[CreekDog]

91. well they will legally be giving things up, because the law reigns in their power

not enough in my estimation, but to say not at all means that you are ignoring the laws that would be imposed.

[Roland99]

9. Let's hope the House makes itself relevant again and turns this piece of crap paper into kindling.

[whathappened]

12. playing games on our dime

these bunch of ass clown are playing the same game they have been playing since the beginning of time , fookem all , wake me up when things really do change

[FarLeftFist]

14. NOW IMPROVE THE BILL.

[RedCloud]

17. Fill the bill with good will 'til the shills are ill.

[icee]

23. All things considered, it is in the top five of the worst bills ever passed......

dd

[smiley_glad_hands]

25. LOL, exagerate much? So you'd put this bill in with the IWR? eom

[icee]

28. Oh, absolutely! And, it will affect more people. Unchanged, It will cost the

the Democrats the House, the Senate and the White House. I just hope the Democrats run a true liberal in the Presidential primary.

[smiley_glad_hands]

29. You are delusional. If and only if this reform does not pass will the dems be hurt in 2010.

A true liberal? Like who? Kuncinich(sp?)?

[icee]

30. No, he would have no chance. With respect to your allegation,

we shall see. I suggest you read the bill. I wonder how many suicides it will engender?

[smiley_glad_hands]

44. You are way over the top. Suicides, lol. eom

[Lionel Mandrake]

49. What does IWR stand for?

Acronym Definition
IWR Institute for Water Resources
IWR Interactive Web Response
IWR Internet Weather Report
IWR Institute for Water Research
IWR Intelligent Word Recognition
IWR Isolated Word Recognition
IWR I Will Report
IWR Internet Weekly Report (blog)
IWR Institute for Wood Research
IWR Internal Work Request
IWR Inter-Works Requisition

or do you have something else in mind?

[Matariki]

63. Iraq War Resolution ?

[Lionel Mandrake]

64. Okay, what are the other four?

One of the worst 5 bills ever passed might be the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act

This was the first of several racist bills passed by Congress to limit immigration from China.

[icee]

74. 1. Iraq 2. Healthcare 3. Vietnam 4. NAFTA. 5. OAB........

5. means Omnibus Appropriations Bill or colloquially: The Earmark Bill

[Lionel Mandrake]

79. Which Omnibus Appropriations Bill?

There's one of those every year. It always includes lots of pork (or "Christmas tree ornaments").

IMHO pork is not as bad as starting an aggressive war (as defined at the Nuremberg trials ca. 1946) or restricting immigration along racial lines.

[icee]

84. HR2764...2008,,,,,,,nt

ddddd

[liquid diamond]

24. I'm thrilled.

This is a major victory for the president and Obama. It's not a perfect bill, but it can be improved.

[smiley_glad_hands]

26. Congrats Dems. Keep your heads up and don't listen to the naysayers. eom

[placton]

72. heads up

the asses of the rich?

[abelenkpe]

27. This morning

I received an email from my senator saying that the Stupak amendment was defeated in the senate health care bill. If so, then I am thrilled. And hopeful once again that the bill will be improved as it is merged with the house version. Honestly, I am the biggest skeptic but this does actually give me hope.

[freddie mertz]

31. Sorry, but a few items aside, this is a lump of coal.nt.

[AllyCat]

32. Historic federal mandate to purchase a private product

Just think of all we can do! Homeless? Mandate buying a house! Hungry? Mandate buying food! Cold? Stupid? Mandate buying your education! Oh the implications are staggering.

Merry Christmas United Health Care!

[mnhtnbb]

33. Ding Ding Ding!! We have a winner!

[ChromeFoundry]

34. +1 n/t

[LibDemAlways]

39. If the mandate is in the final bill and there is no public option there

will be hell to pay at the ballot box next November. Everyone championing this POS is going to be regretting it then because the repukes are going to be reminding people at every turn who did this to them.

[FarLeftFist]

52. The mandate is not mandatory.

At least that's what DKos says here: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/21/817417/-Devil-in-the-Details:-Mandate-not-mandatory

[lenegal]

35. It is either all or nothing for some here.

As Paul Krugman stated, "Pass the bill." We can add to it later.

[ProSense]

38. Senator Rockefeller list provisions of the bill

here

[Cha]

50. Thanks Pro~

For the facts.

[LibDemAlways]

40. "Near universal medical coverage" Not.

Requiring people to further stuff the coffers of large corporations and increase their bottom line under penalty of law does nothing to create "near universal" health care. The uninsured guy who is already struggling to make ends meet is not going to suddenly magically come up with the money to buy shitty coverage with big deductibles. He's going to be pissed and he's going to express his displeasure at the ballot box.

Reid is right. This POS is, indeed a small step. What he should have added is "over a big cliff for the Democratic party."

[Kokonoe]

41. Nothing a good primary battle can't fix

KILL IT. The reason they want it passed now is to skip an election issue.
Even traitor Lieberman was for public health care during his campaign. Let em fall on their votes.

[CreekDog]

46. Hamsher isn't saying to primary Lieberman, but Bernie Sanders instead

:crazy:

[Kokonoe]

54. Bernie Sanders Vermont

We need to put a fire under spineless democrats who think its all the republicans will give us.

This election year could be the best one yet.

[aquart]

56. Sanders is not a Democrat.

[CreekDog]

58. What's the point of primarying Bernie Sanders anyway, he's not a Democrat

and you are foolish if you think empowering us politically begins with threatening Sanders over his voting record. if anything, encouraging what we care about begins with recognizing how much of an ally Bernie Sanders is.

[Kokonoe]

85. I know hes not a democrat

I'm talking about democrats who are against public options.
I don't like being long and winded, and should have said hes an I.
And thank you Bernie, for the $10 billion provision for community health centers.

[aquart]

55. Neither one of them is a Democrat.

[SandWalker1984]

47. We've only to look to Massachusett's health care system to see our future

This story from 2008 was written by 2 doctos in Massachusetts that were dealing every day with the results and failures of the Mass "health care" system in which residents are mandated to buy insurance from private corporations and fined if they fail to do so. If this so called "health care" bill in Congress keeps the mandates, this is OUR future too:


The Gaping Holes in Massachusetts' Health Care Plan
Mass Failure
By Dr. STEFFIE WOOLHANDLER
and Dr. DAVID HIMMELSTEIN

In 1966--just before Medicare and Medicaid were launched--47 million Americans were uninsured. By 1975, the United States had reached an all time low of 21 million without coverage. Now, according to the Census Bureau's latest figures, we're back where we started, with 47 million uninsured in 2006--up 2.2 million since 2005. But this time, most of the uninsured are neither poor nor elderly.

The middle class is being priced out of healthcare. Virtually all of this year's increase was among families with incomes above $50,000; in fact, two-thirds of the newly uncovered were in the above-$75,000 group. And full-time workers accounted for 56 percent of the increase, with their children making up much of the rest.

The new Census numbers are particularly disheartening for anyone hoping for a Massachusetts miracle. In the Commonwealth, 651,000 residents are uninsured, 65 percent more than the figure used by state leaders in planning for health reform. Their numbers came from a telephone survey done in English and Spanish. But that misses people who lack a land-line phone--43.9 percent of phoneless adults are uninsured, according to other studies.

It also skips over the 523,000 non-English speakers in Massachusetts whose native language isn't Spanish (e.g. Portuguese, Chinese, or Haitian-Creole), another group with a high uninsurance rate. In contrast, the Census Bureau goes door-to-door for its survey and has translators for almost every language. It gets a more complete picture.

In sum, Massachusetts health reform planners have been wishing away a quarter of a million uninsured people. Recent Patrick administration claims that health reform is succeeding are based on cooked books. According to the state's figures, almost half of the previously uninsured gained coverage under the health reform bill by July 1. But according to the Census Bureau, the new sign-ups amount to less than one-quarter of the uninsured. Moreover, it's likely that much of that gain has already been wiped out by shrinking job-based coverage--a longstanding and nationwide trend.

Why has progress been so meager? Because most of the promised new coverage is of the "buy it yourself" variety, with scant help offered to the struggling middle class. According to the Census Bureau, only 28 percent of Massachusetts uninsured have incomes low enough to qualify for free coverage. Thirty-four percent more can get partial subsidies--but the premiums and co-payments remain a barrier for many in this near-poor group.

And 244,000 of Massachusetts uninsured get zero assistance--just a stiff fine if they don't buy coverage. A couple in their late 50s faces a minimum premium of $8,638 annually, for a policy with no drug coverage at all and a $2,000 deductible per person before insurance even kicks in. Such skimpy yet costly coverage is, in many cases, worse than no coverage at all. Illness will still bring crippling medical bills--but the $8,638 annual premium will empty their bank accounts even before the bills start arriving. Little wonder that barely 2 percent of those required to buy such coverage have thus far signed up.

While the middle class sinks, the health reform law has buoyed our state's wealthiest health institutions. Hospitals like Massachusetts General are reporting record profits and enjoying rate increases tucked into the reform package. Blue Cross and other insurers that lobbied hard for the law stand to gain billions from the reform, which shrinks their contribution to the state's free care pool and will force hundreds of thousands to purchase their defective products.

Meanwhile, new rules for the free care pool will drastically cut funding for the hundreds of thousands who remain uninsured, and for the safety-net hospitals and clinics that care for them. (Disclosure--we've practiced for the past 25 years at a public hospital that is currently undergoing massive budget cuts.)

Health reform built on private insurance isn't working and can't work; it costs too much and delivers too little. At present, bureaucracy consumes 31 percent of each healthcare dollar. The Connector--the new state agency created to broker coverage under the reform law--is adding another 4.5 percent to the already sky-high overhead charged by private insurers. Administrative costs at Blue Cross are nearly five times higher than Medicare's and 11 times those in Canada's single payer system. Single payer reform could save $7.7 billion annually on paperwork and insurance profits in Massachusetts, enough to cover all of the uninsured and to upgrade coverage for the rest of us.

Of course, single payer reform is anathema to the health insurance industry. But breaking their stranglehold on our health system and our politicians is the only way for health reform to get beyond square one.


Dr. Steffie Woolhandler and Dr. David Himmelstein co-founded Physicians for a National Health Program and are primary care doctors at Cambridge Hospital.

**************

The doctors make valid points as to why mandates to force people to buy private insurance without doing anything about cost controls results in an even bigger broken health care system. IF Congress insists on passing mandates w/o a viable public option, this IS our future too.

[Libertas1776]

51. It's a milestone alright....

to greed, corruption, and corporate fascism.

[FarLeftFist]

57. I don't know why people assume Democrats are anti-corporatists

Don't remember that being in their platform, nor do I ever remember them turning down corporate donations for their campaigns. This bill holds them accountable for some of their more shadier practices i.e. pre-existing condition denial, gender discrimination, skyrocketing premiums, etc. Insurance companies aren't 100% evil, some of their practices are and hopefully this bill will address those. I see this as a big victory, but if we want to perfect this bill then our fight has just begun. But at least now we have a foundation to build on and continue our fight. A quote from V for Vendetta: "I shall die here. Every inch of me shall perish. Every inch... but one. An inch. It is small, and it is fragile and it is the only thing worth having. We must never lose it or give it away. We must never let them take it from us."

[Zhade]

78. Complete fucking bullshit. There is nothing preventing insurance companies from charging...

...whatever they want for people with preexisting conditions.

If you can't afford it, you're effectively denied coverage.

[DFW]

60. The longest journey starts with a single step

If the reconciliation process with the House version produces a FAR better bill, then this was that first step.

If this was the last step, it will have been a lot of effort with precious little to show for it, and the single step
will end up being one hell of a short journey. I'll hold my fire, though, until I see what ends up on Obama's desk to sign.

Both cheering and whining are speculative gestures at this point until the final version is agreed upon. About the
only things that are assured are 1.) that nobody will be completely happy with it (so what else is new?), and
2.) that a whole lot of Democrats will lie about just that and say how great they did (mission accomplished!).

I will cheer about one thing: a solid bloc of sour-faced Republican Senators stood by and watched as the Democrats
FINALLY handed them a taste of their own medicine that they had been dishing out to us for most of the Cheneybush
era. That won't pay for anyone's lifesaving operation, but it must have thrown them for a loop, even so.

[Wardoc]

61. Congrats Health Insurance Industry for showing us who runs the party!

Thy bidding, masters?

[Milo_Bloom]

65. If this is the legacy then we have no hope.

[kevsters]

70. British Babies Are Born In Parking Lots Because Of Britain's health care system

Here is a perfect example of why Americans (Fox viewers in particular) are so misinformed about health care.

http://progressnotcongress.org/?p=3461

[placton]

71. this should read MILLSTONE

for the party

[Goldstein1984]

73. If this mess gets fixed in the House/Senate version, then

I'll be pleasantly surprised.

If it remains a corporate welfare bill putting a mandate on the people, then add it to the list that will make me vote anti-incumbent in 2010 and 2012.

[Enthusiast]

76. At least it has pissed off the GOP.

And that brings me Christmas Eve joy!

[ej510]

83. Wow, all you care about is beating the republicans even if the bill is awful?

There is no hope for this country.

[Enthusiast]

87. Hardly 'all'. nt

[Historic NY]

82. How come Bunning (R) didn't vote? Did he forget to showup?

[underpants]

88. 40 years of obstruction and payoffs...... WE DID IT

Good job.