Gays 'will never go to heaven': cardinal

[kpete]

Source: AFP

Gays 'will never go to heaven': cardinal

(AFP) – 1 hour ago

VATICAN CITY — Homosexuals and transsexuals "will never enter the kingdom of heaven", a leading Roman Catholic cardinal said on Wednesday.

Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragan said that while the Church regarded homosexuality as an "insult to God", this did not justify discrimination against gay and transsexual people.

"Transsexuals and homosexuals will never enter the kingdom of heaven and it is not me who says this, but Saint Paul," the cardinal said, in comments reported by the Ansa news agency.

"People are not born homosexual, they become homosexual, for different reasons: education issues or because they did not develop their own identity during adolescence. It may not be their fault, but acting against nature and the dignity of the human body is an insult to God," he said.

Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5h5kwXHE_zqvKJp92adJjWeXxZmyg

[La Lioness Priyanka]

1. thats ok. i prefer the heat. also, the whips and chains seem somewhat more interesting

than angels flying around.

[saigon68]

86. I guess your little boy rectum loving Priests won't get there either

You Scum bag Racketeering Sodomy enabler

[Joe Bacon]

90. Oh, but priests can be forgiven!

The Catholic Church will forgive child molesters and let them into the pearly gates. But if you're gay or lesbian, the Catholic CHurch wants no part of you except your money.

Sad but true. TIme for anyone with any sense of morality to leave that utterly corrupt institution!

[saigon68]

107. It is a Corrupt Racketeering Organization Preying on the sheep

Preying not Praying for the poor, the sick, and the down-trodden.

[JaneQPublic]

114. Pedophile priests...

[beyond cynical]

112. Definitely not -- pedophiles (gay or straight) are not allowed.

[roguevalley]

99. my take on this, IMHO, is that since all energy survives, we all go back

to where we came from and get a long hard look at what we did here. That cardinal is going to be damned sorry when he gets there. As for gay people, since they have suffered such shit here, they are the meek and the downtrodden and they are as assured of going to heaven as anyone who lives.

[krabigirl]

116. and the music would be better, and also, imagine being with fundies for ETERNITY?! yikes

if those freaks are going to heaven, i'd rather be wherever they aren't. Thank pasta I don't believe in this shit.

[Doctor_J]

125. Damn right. I'll be listening to fellow travellers Steve Earle, Kevin Welch,

Bruce Springsteen, and John Stewart, and queers Freddie Mercury, Peter Allen,and Melissa Etheridge. The Cardinal will have Pat Boone and Toby Keith

[maxsolomon]

2. Saint Paul was guessing, Cardinal Barragan

There is no evidence that ANYONE has ever entered the kingdom of heaven.

Unless you think, like Jesus, that the kingdom of heaven is spread out before you on the earth and that we don't see it.

[Sinti]

10. The kingdom of heaven is spread out before you on the earth

If we would do unto others as we would have them do unto us; if we would not judge others, and if we would turn the other cheek when injured... if we could follow the whole of the law (Love one another) and put aside the commentary, we would have something just like heaven. Dem Christians is halfrite

[JDPriestly]

50. Saint Paul. Now wasn't he the guy who tormented Christians and

only became a Christian himself after he was struck down on the road to Damascus? Wasn't he forgiven by God for persecuting God's own people? If God could forgive a man who harmed Christians, why couldn't God forgive just about anything? I'm trying to place my thinking in a dogmatically Christian framework here.

How in the world some guy can claim to know who will and who will not go to heaven is just beyond belief.

According to his own testimony, Paul “violently persecuted” the “church of God” (followers of Jesus) prior to his conversion to Christianity.<11> and was advancing in stature within Judaism's Jerusalem temple leadership before he came to believe that the crucified Jesus, of the line of David, was actually Lord . Paul's writings give some insight into his thinking regarding his former place in Judaism. He is strongly critical both theologically and empirically of claims of moral or lineal superiority of Jews while conversely strongly sustaining the notion of a special place for the children of Israel . His aggressive and authoritative writing style, even when addressing the supposed "super-apostles", some of whom certainly had stronger claims to having known Jesus during his lifetime suggests that Paul's stature in Judaism and the temple leadership must have been quite high.

Paul asserted that he received the Gospel not from any person, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Paul claimed independence from the "mother church" in Jerusalem, <9> but was just as quick to claim agreement with it on the nature and content of the gospel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_of_Tarsus

[bitchkitty]

56. That's what they say.

I personally believe that Paul was a pompous prick, and that you should never trust me who say "God told me." Especially when there was nobody else around to hear.

[No Elephants]

102. If by "tormented," you mean murdered, then yes, that would be St. Paul

Paul never met Jesus.

[Taverner]

3. Neither will anyone else - silly rabbit, Heaven doesn't exist

[naaman fletcher]

4. Good, it will be a better place without all the Catholic clergy anyway.

:)


/not that I really believe in the place. I'm open to a creator and an afterlife, but I don't think we have any possible way of knowing if that's the case or what the afterlife would be like.

[peacetalksforall]

5. Shame. What ignorance. It's no wonder so many people I know don't follow the news carefully. This

is sad.

[Pied Piper]

6. Sheesh, I certainly hope not

The last place I would like to spend eternity is with those sanctimonious pricks.

[Sinti]

7. Thank god

Goodness knows, the thought of all of eternity with the popes and other 'godly' men turns my stomach.

[No Elephants]

103. You seem to be assuming that all Popes will be in heaven, along with the self-righteous.

I don't think they will.

Besides, if you didn't love your companions, it wouldn't be heavenly. ;)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

8. He's right.

Nobody will, there's no Heaven.

[dbonds]

9. There is no heaven

[CreekDog]

11. What about the priests they moved around knowing their guilt?

and what of the people who attempted to keep their guilt a secret?

any of them excluded from heaven?

[24601]

84. Yeah, what if the priests are technically heterosexual but have a

record of butt-fucking boys and girls. Is heaven off limits to them or will a sincere contrition let them in? What a crock!

[scytherius]

12. Said the pedophile

Whether it's the act or silence about the act, he is a pedophile.

It is time to prosecute the Catholic Church under RICO for their institutionalized pedophilia.

[ck4829]

13. And the number of people calling themselves Catholic continues to decline

[Hekate]

61. What a surprise

[CanonRay]

14. Because there isn't one

Asshole :grr:

[ZombieHorde]

15. I don't understand how adult liberals can be members of this hate group.

The mind control powers of the RCC is disturbing.

[Hekate]

63. There are some monumentally good folk who are born and raised Catholic...

... and see the Church as an institution that can at times go astray from its mission due to human failings. The Church's documented history goes back to the beginning, it has a rich intellectual and artistic history, as well as good works to its record. It was founded by the Apostle Peter and all priests are consecrated by an unbroken line of laying-on-of-hands. The Mass is a gorgeous and meaningful ritual. When children are sent to parochial school they are taught discipline and a code of ethics that can serve them well in life -- including sometimes being politically liberal.

See? That's how.

Otoh, the RC Church is losing members in this country. It is losing donations and tithes. The numbers of new nuns and priests are way, way down. Its members are voting with their feet and their wallets.

You and I are outsiders to this institution and its easier for us to cast stones. It's not so easy to give up all that I mentioned in the first paragraph if you were born to it.

Hekate

[ZombieHorde]

69. I was born into a Catholic family, in a Catholic neihborhood, and I went to a Catholic school.

I went to Catholic Sunday school until I was in my mid-teens. My father was in seminary school studying to become a priest, he left when he started receiving "inappropriate massages." I have had a lot of formal religious education.

Your description is not accurate according to my experiences, but even if your description was true, this would not excuse the fact the RCC is a hate group. Fortunately for the RCC, bigotry against gay people and women is acceptable in the U.S.A., even among liberals. If black people were not allowed to become priests, who here would be defending them?

"It's not so easy to give up all that I mentioned in the first paragraph if you were born to it."

Depends on one's tolerance, or acceptance, of open bigotry. I have no quarrels with turning by back on hate groups.

[Hekate]

72. Then you have your own experience to go by and I respect that completely. nt

[defendandprotect]

101. "Good folks" who are well intentioned aren't the Vatican/RCC hierarchy which ...

is a male supremacist cult --

The RCC has been wrong from it's very inception - it's destruction of followers of Jesus -

pagans.

The RCC Church has destroyed history and replaced it with lies --

It's a Church rooted and founded in patriarchal violence --- not the least of which we

recognize as the Cruasades -- Inquisition -- Hammer of Witches/Burning Times --

I was also born into this system of brainwashing of children's minds --

which begins before children have even exercised their own right to their own thoughts and

consciences!


Support for this church -- especially financial support -- is a vote for male supremacy and

more lies.

[cap]

109. except that liberal minded nuns are quietly fighting back

read the National Catholic Reporter about Sister Christendsen and her response to the Vatican's Inquistion of the nuns.

She told the nuns not to cooperate and, guess what, none of the are. Almost no one has responded to the "questionnaire" sent out.

The nuns are no fools; they saw what happened with the Inquisition of the seminaries that targeted gay priests.

My answer to the criticism is that the severed hand can not heal the body. I can respect the reasons why people have left the church because the church has been absolutely vile. But, there are parts of the church that are good... look at the "labor priests" who helped kick start the labor movement in the 1930's.

I refuse to let all the assets of the Church rest uncontested with the most conservative elements.

[defendandprotect]

111. That's good news . . . but it doesn't change the rest of the reality re the RCC nor its history ....

However women chose to fight the church -- and perhaps from inside some nuns can

make swiss chees of it, I don't really know -- but however they do it I respect the

effort to change the church to a democracy.

"A severed hand" presumes that there is a body worth saving --

the church should go down -- it's been founded on patriarchal violence and has done

great damage.

You don't have to belong to a religion to unionize, nor do any other good works!

In fact, it is not church policy to fight liberation doctrine in the church.

Again -- supporting the Vatican/RCC with ones labor or ones money is supporting a male-

supremacist cult -- and overall makes no sense.

Organized patriarchal religion is the UNDERPINNING for patriarchy --

it cannot survive without it --

Patriarchy will not be knocked out until we first knock out organized patriarchal religions --

the belief in male-supremacy and a one-all male-"god" . . . !!

[SharonAnn]

119. Yes, it's not easy but after a few attempts to quit i finally succeeded.

The insttution has become even worse over the last 20-30 years. It would be a lot easier to leave now.

[krabigirl]

117. Same here.

[fascisthunter]

16. well, I don't know if heaven exists, but I do know people like to create hell for others

they dissapprove of, regardless. Religion is a powerful tool in the hands of the bigoted.

[murray hill farm]

62. Anne Lamont noted that....

"You can safely assume that you have created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates the same people you do"

[Hekate]

64. Anne Lamott is a wise, wise woman. nt

[mdmc]

87. yes

[Solly Mack]

17. education issues? LMAO and I thought his opinion couldn't get dumber

then I kept reading

[LisaM]

18. They doth protest too much, is my feeling.

It's my personal opinion that the current Pope is gay. Just a hunch.

I am tired of this swing to the right of the Catholic church. It doesn't reflect what I, or my Catholic family, or most American Catholics I know, believe.

[cap]

19. Cardinals "will never get to heaven" -- gays

:)

[krispos42]

26. GMTA

:-)

[edwardian]

30. Silly cardinal,

"teh Gays" have their own heaven and it is sooooooooooooo much fun. And NO BIGOTS ALLOWED!!! Kiss and a snap, now go away.

[AngryOldDem]

46. What you said!

:thumbsup:

Note to Church: Clean out your own stinking, steaming stables before you go passing judgment on others.

Question for Catholic apologists: Tell me again WHY anyone would want to stay with this bigoted cult? This kind of hate NEGATES everything the Church **used** to stand for, as well as the message Christ taught.

[murray hill farm]

60. Christianity...

has become so anti Christ, that they have fulfilled their own prophacy of the Antichrist!

[cap]

78. look at the Catholic Worker, Secular Fransiscans and

the Center for Human Development where Obama got his start.

The Catholic Left will explode one day....I do believe. We are all tired of our hierarchy.

[elocs]

20. Why would they want to? Why would they want to spend eternity with those who hate them?

Of course, then again, maybe it will be those who hate who do not ever go to heaven.

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

21. if ever there was an "insult to God" it is

those in Vatican City.

[Divine Discontent]

22. a polite plea for all liberal Catholics to find a different church that doesn't openly condemn us

[mike_c]

23. why would anyone give a rat's buttocks what this delusional man thinks?

The kingdom of heaven? :rofl:

What tripe! Gays don't go to heaven? Who cares what anyone who believes in mythical lands in the sky thinks, for pete's sake?

[krispos42]

24. Christians 'will never go to heaven': imam

:eyes:

I bet the GLBT community will be about as upset at this as Christians are about Muslims thinking they won't go to heaven.

[h9socialist]

25. Damn! There's gonna be a lot of Priests and Bishops not making it, then!

You'd think the Vatican would one day become embarrassed by it's 12th Century childishness and its hyper-hypocrisy!

[NoodleyAppendage]

27. Hanging around for an eternity with sanctimonious assholes would be HELL.

I guess homosexuality in animals is due to a lack of education or identity crisis?

Religion MAKES YOU STUPID.

J

[JNelson6563]

28. I agree, only because there is no heaven.

But people like this cardinal make me wish there was a hell.

Julie

[snake in the grass]

29. Pedophiles and their enablers, on the other hand, are...

...welcome with open arms!

[closeupready]

39. Of course, lol.

:rofl:

[hatrack]

31. "But he LOVES you!"

We need George Carlin more than ever.

[gratuitous]

32. St. Paul also said

In the Epistle to the Romans that nothing in all creation can separate us from the love of God. Eigthth chapter, 38th and 39th verses, if you're scoring along at home. And while the meaning of that passage seems pretty clear, I've scoured and scoured the Christian Testament, and can't find one instance where the word "homosexual" is used. Okay, that may be because the word "homosexual" was coined in the 19th Century from a Latin and a Greek root, but I don't think Cardinal Barragan should let that stop him, given his outstanding scholarship in the field of human sexuality, as evidenced by his breathtakingly ignorant pronouncements on the subject.

Maybe this is a decision best left to God, hmmm? In the meantime, we're under pretty strict orders to figure out how to create a society that accommodates the entire spectrum of humanity. Not just Paul says that, but John, Jesus, Isaiah, Micah, the Psalmist, and the Proverbist. By the way, Jesus also had some hard things to say about religious leaders who used their authority to mislead people.

[TrogL]

34. Handy guide to anti-gay quotes in the Bible

http://members.shaw.ca/trogl/bibquote.html

[Hekate]

65. *

:thumbsup:

[madmom]

33. "acting against nature", I guess he needs to get out more.

[Golden Raisin]

35. How about all the priests

who have been banging altar boys for generations? Are they on the fast track to the Kingdom of Heaven?

[CatholicEdHead]

I guess this quote comes from Mexican culture

while not as bad as some countries (Google Uganda and gays), it is still a conservative form of Catholicism down there.

The Cardinal comes from Mexico and has stuck his foot in his mouth before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javier_Lozano_Barrag%C3%A1n

To those who say Liberal Catholics should leave, I am currently voting with my pocketbook with this nonsense going on but working on fighting back against this nonsense.

[closeupready]

41. And how, please, are you working on fight back against the nonsense?

Just curious, thanks. (question from a recovering Catholic).

[Bluenorthwest]

53. Show your work. I doubt your words for they include racist tripe

The US Catholic Church has both covered up the most vile child abuse and organized against the rights of good people. In California, in Maine, in Oregon, across the USA, American white bread Catholics do this stuff. Say this stuff. This quote is no different from what many American Catholics say all the time, pretending you are part of a 'better' race or culture is just a disgusting way to remain in denial.

[StopTheNeoCons]

36. All catholics should IMMEDIATELY leave this cult/church...nt

[TlalocW]

37. So many "Christians"...

Follow Paul instead of Christ because Paul lets them feel good about being anti-woman, anti-gay, etc.

TlalocW

[closeupready]

38. Of course, St. Paul was 100% human, and as such, subject to making mistakes.

This was a big one (even if that is true, and I don't know that it is).

[tomg]

40. Imagine there's no cardinals

It's easy if you try.



"Homosexuality is therefore a sin, but this does not justify any form of discrimination. God alone has the right to judge,"

BUT

"Homosexuals and transsexuals "will never enter the kingdom of heaven' "

No discrimination and only God judges, but you all are going to hell. Hmmmmm. I think the term is cognitive dissonance.

[One_Life_To_Give]

42. Remind me again why we gave them the vote?

Kind of makes one pine for the not so long ago when Catholics could not vote in some states. Although I am not so sure that Jonathan Edwards would of been any more tolerant.

[PinkoDonkey]

82. wow. you really wrote that, huh?

[MineralMan]

43. Good luck with that heaven stuff, there, Cardinal.

The only good thing is that you'll never know it doesn't exist, since you'll be a rotting corpse.

[mvd]

44. This kind of thing is why I left the Catholic church

And the Church seems to be going rightward still. I call myself an independent Christian.

[mvd]

47. BTW, I believe in heaven (as in a peaceful..

existence re-united with lovced ones,) and it is open to all IMO.

[montanto]

45. . . . and neither will anyone else.

But that doesn't mean that what he says isn't bullshit.

[AngryOldDem]

48. I think some people are going to be in a for one hell of a shock when they get to St. Peter's gates.

[goclark]

49. I bet if we had a looking glass into his life

He is the one not going to heaven for being so evil!

[Jkid]

51. He's what he's really saying

Gays 'will never go to heaven': cardinal

(AFP) – 1 hour ago

VATICAN CITY — Those who are born gay or transgender "will never enter the kingdom of heaven", a leading Roman Catholic cardinal said on Wednesday.

Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragan said that while the Church regarded same-sex attraction as an "insult to God", this did not justify discrimination against gay and transsexual people.

"Sexual minorities will never enter the kingdom of heaven and it is not me who says this, but Saint Paul," the cardinal said, in comments reported by the Ansa news agency.

"These people discover that they are gay , for different reasons: because they became self-aware of their sexuality during high school or because they reject being a living stereotype of masculinity or refuse to date women during adolescence. It may not be their fault, but acting against nature and the dignity of the human body is an insult to God by not forcing themselves to relate to the opposite sex," he said.

[AllTooEasy]

52. I guess that disqualifies all the priests

...and I'm a Catholic saying this. What an embarrassment!

[izquierdista]

54. And other reasons

Sometimes all it takes is a position of power and a cute altar boy.

[Diclotican]

55. Kpte

Kpte

Only thing I'm sure about, that I'm not sure how many "sinners" who in the end Will end up in heavens.. Because they did their best in this life..Humans is fragile things.. And we do fail, sometimes miserable too, but as long as we do our best, as heterosexual, homosexual and otherwise, I'm pretty sure that our sins will be washed away, and we all come to heavens.. At least I am hoping fort hat... And I am not sure about how many "more holley than you" who will end up the other place.. Because they BELIEVED they was better than the rest...

Diclotican

[Homer Wells]

68. Well said, Diclotican!!!

I totally agree with you!

:toast:

[Bluenorthwest]

57. 'it is not me who says this but a first century tent maker'

Paul, whom the Catholics deem a 'Saint' for reasons of their own, taught many things. He spent far more words promoting his support for slavery than he did condemning gay people. He said that God made Masters to be his proxy to the slave, and that slaves should serve masters with the fullness of their being and devotion, as if unto God.
He also said that women should not speak in public, remain covered, and never wear expensive adornments of any kind. They are to be submissive to their husbands, and subservient to all other men.
So to really stand with Paul, one must support slavery, and the oppression of women, not just of gay people.
I question those who promote pro slavery authors to the status of 'saint'. Jesus himself of course did not encourage slavery, nor did he speak so much as a single word against gay people, making him less in the eyes of Catholics that the hate filled Paul, a tent maker, a Roman, a man of ancient desert superstitions which rightly look evil to us now, such as slavery as God's way of life.

[TokenQueer]

58. Maybe because Heaven doesn't exist you dumb-fuck christians.

:eyes:

On edit:

"...acting against nature and the dignity of the human body is an insult to God." Ummmmm kinda like that whole celibacy thing?

[Hekate]

59. What about rapers of children?Are they an insult to God?Are they acting against nature & the dignity

... of the human body?

Or does this screed only apply to adults who love each other and not to priests who abandon their vows of chastity and abuse children in their care?
:grr:

Hekate

[treestar]

66. Who appointed him God?

So he gets to judge? I don't think God approves.

[hedgehog]

67. FWIW, St. Paul doesn't condemn two adult males

having consensual sex but rather about an adult male forcing sex with a young boy under his control........I think that's called pedophilia, not homosexuality.


Not to mention, a lot of assholes added their own comments to scripture in the early years and passed it off as something St. Paul wrote.

[No Elephants]

104. I would love it if that were so, but I don't think it is.

[meow2u3]

70. God didn't die and leave Cardinal Barragan in charge

Ever heard of people with gay tendencies who decide not to act on them, Your Eminence?

Rash judgment won't get you into heaven, either.

[Romulox]

71. This is hate speech. k/r

[kentauros]

73. This cardinal has obviously never heard of the term "unconditional love".

Only humans put conditions on Love.

[K8-EEE]

74. So glad I'm out of that religion

I didn't really have a choice being in the club as the indoctrination/baptism begins pretty much at birth but I sure as hell am GOOD and out of it!

[girl gone mad]

75. I think Belinda Carlisle said it best..

Heaven is a place on Earth.

[grace0418]

76. That's funny. I thought it wasn't even up to St. Paul to decide. Seems to me I remember

from Sunday school that only God can make the judgment about who's going to heaven and Jesus said that everyone else should STFU about it. Even, presumably, St. Paul and DEFINITELY some cardinal.

[No Elephants]

105. You remember correctly. That is the import of the parable of the wheat and the tares.

God, and only God, decides on Judgment Day.

[happyslug]

77. More on Cardinal Berragain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javier_Lozano_Barrag%C3%A1n
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/blozano.html
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/dxhcw.html
http://www.catholicpressphoto.com/servizi/2009-02-11%20Giornata%20mondiale%20del%20malato/default.htm
http://www.cardinalrating.com/cardinal_53.htm

He should read the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2357

1854 Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture,129 became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.

1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God's law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.

Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.

1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:

When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner's will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.130

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm#II

Given the above two section you quickly see that Homosexuality can NOT be a Mortal Sin, it calls Homosexual acts, "as acts of grave depravity" but never uses the term "Grave Matter" in regard to Homosexuality for the simple reason to be a grave matter i.e. a Mortal Sin, the sin has to be listed in the Ten Commandments (Which it is NOT) OR condemned by Christ himself (Which he never did). Yes the term "Grave Depravity"
and "Grave Matter" but the first implies a general wrong, the latter that the Subject itself is wrong. It is a technical difference, but with the Catechism an important one for it clearly shows that Homosexual conduct, while a sin is only venial in nature (i.e. does NOT keep you out of Heaven).

The Catholic Church has a long history of "Hierarchy of sin", some sins are worse then others. Some sins are minor, other sins are severe. In Catholic Dogma the test is simple, is it a violation of the Ten Commandments OR Christ re-telling of the ten? If the answer is NO, it is a venial sin which increases your time in purgatory but can NOT keep you out of Heaven.

Just pointing out this Cardinal should read his own dogma before speaking out, at least stay on track with the Majority of Bishops in regard to Catholic Doctrine.

[TrogL]

121. At one point they were lumping it under "adultery"

Problem is, Paul lumps "looking at another woman" under adultery along a lot of other stuff. He'd be real happy with burkhas.

[Zodiak]

79. Sorry, Cardinal, the only people getting into heaven are the Mormons

yes, the Mormons.



yeah, verily

[David Zephyr]

80. Oh my goodness. I don't get to go to the non-existent place that this dress-wearing man believes in.

What a farce.

[KamaAina]

81. That's odd. He sounds exactly like the mayor of Vallejo, CA.

a city of about 100,000 between SF and Sac.

http://www.timesheraldonline.com/ci_13906753

Dozens of people crowded the steps of Vallejo City Hall on Tuesday to protest a recent quoted remark by Mayor Osby Davis that gay people would not go to heaven.

The protesters waved rainbow flags, held signs demanding the separation of church and state and some called for Davis' resignation....

The city has been anything but peaceful, however, since a New York Times column on Nov. 20, quoted Davis as saying of gay people, "They're committing sin and that sin will keep them out of heaven. ... But you don't hate the person. You hate the sin that they commit."

So either a Catholic cardinal is leading a secret double life as the mayor of a Northern California city, or they're both reading from the same fax that Homophobic Bigotry Central sends out every morning. :eyes:

[PinkoDonkey]

83. This is odd

Not every day you see a Cardinal in the Vatican directly contradicting church doctrine.

[seeinfweggos]

85. he's right, of course

you can't go to a place that doesn't exist.

[Q3JR4]

88. Since I don't believe in heaven, why would I

ever want to go there?

Especially if it meant having to spend eternity with a bunch of holier than thou assholes?

Q3JR4.

[truthisfreedom]

89. Yo Cardinal, anyone who protects those who abuse children will never get into heaven either.

Since I'm an atheist I really could give a crap, but seriously, the catholic church is on a rampage to marginalize themselves this year. Jeepers.

[kestrel91316]

91. Paul ain't in charge. And he never was.

[donheld]

92. But Priests who molest children will?

[Arrowhead2k1]

93. I still can't believe people dedicate their entire lives fussing over old made up bullshit.

Heaven is imaginary. You can't actually go to imaginary places. Grow up already.

[BadgerKid]

94. By his own statement, RCism is living in the past.

I like to look to the future, thanks.

[TexasObserver]

95. Recommend. I can't believe they're still pushing this bigotry in the name of Jesus.

In the 1970s, I thought we were headed to an era where homosexuals would be accepted. Then the Reagan era began, and gay bashing had its revival under the GOP. Christianity is more reactionary on the topic today than it was 30 years ago.

It's disgusting.

This whole thing about "becoming" homosexual is insulting, too.

I can't believe these churches use tax free dollars to spread their bigotry, and that their leaders can stand up in public and say the shameful, hateful things they say. There's no hell, but if there was, they'd all be going there.

[Betty]

96. why does this church still have any members?

what on earth does anyone see in this sort of religous "leadership"?

[and-justice-for-all]

97. "I would rather go to Hell for being myself...

then go to heaven and be surround by assholes." Marilyn Manson

and I am an Atheist, so I really do not care what the fuck a cardinal thinks and pretends to know.

[dogfacedboy]

98. Hey "Cardinal"--STFU, you moron!!! n/t

[defendandprotect]

100. Organized patriarchal religion and its lies would be humorous if not so damaging to

so many --

Obviously, the Vatican/RCC intends to continue its war on it's enemies --

that is women, homosexuals --and the many others who don't embrace their male-supremacist

cult!

Btw, isn't this what they used to say about Jews?

[No Elephants]

106. Christians need to admit that the Apostle Paul was a lunatic.

The NT is full of clues to that effect. If you came across Paul as a character in any other book, you would think, "The author is clearly telling me in so many ways that this character is Looney Tunes." I see no reason to abandon thought when reading the Bible.

[mstinamotorcity]

108. I am not gay

but i think i would have a hard time getting into heaven.I have friends who happen to prefer same sex relationships. I have always wondered what business is it of mine who a person chooses to love or be involved with.I have worked with children for a long time, and we sort of know when they are gay. No they do not walk up at five years old and say hi i am gay. But i see the confusion in their hearts and minds trying to figure out why they are different. My long time friends that are gay,their family members say they knew all the time that their child or love one was gay from childhood. So in my opinion, no one chooses to be what the world considers abnormal.No one chooses to be ridiculed or bashed. The LGBT community are human being first. And their sexual lifestyle is far down the list of who they are. I had the blessings of a wonderful mother who taught us to judge people by how they treat you and others throughout life,not by who they choose to love. And it seems that priest with their vast wisdom and religious expert knowledge would quite surly be able to read. And please believe they know the science. But science and religion have always been at war with each other.So to my LGBT partners f--k what little men in dunce caps and sheets say. I think they are the ones who are confused. Because i always thought they looked like badly made up drag queens. }( }( }( and that is an insult to my friends who dress and look quite beautiful.

[sofa king]

110. Does that include gay cardinals?

'Cause I'm pretty sure that there have been more than a few of those.

[MellowDem]

113. Doesn't the cardinal know....

all gays go to heaven! I'm guessing the cardinal feels pretty confident about his chances... and that's always a sign that you're on a high speed train to fiery fun.

[wordpix]

115. don't worry, the FSM loves gays

[ima_sinnic]

118. a quick google search reveals that the vatican

has one if not more websites, so I presume messages of "support" can be sent :evilgrin:

I plan to do just that.

[alfredo]

120. So they can't go to a place you can't prove exists?

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

122. and the Catholic Church can't

understand why they are no longer relevant to many thinking people:shrug:
I can't recall Christ saying anything about this.

[mitchtv]

123. They also say "NO DOGS"!

Count me out please. What kind of heaven has no dogs?

[Doctor_J]

124. Neither will bigots, cardinal. I hope you get to share a bathroom in hell

with one of the gays you despise.

[daleo]

126. It's not their fault, but God hates them anyway

That's a hell of a religious position.

[Arkana]

127. Good thing Cardinal Javier Loser Barge isn't the gatekeeper.