Researcher says text proves Shroud of Turin real

[mcablue]

Source: AP

ROME – A Vatican researcher claims a nearly invisible text on the Shroud of Turin proves the authenticity of the artifact revered as Jesus' burial cloth.

The claim made in a new book by historian Barbara Frale drew immediate skepticism from some scientists, who maintain the shroud is a medieval forgery.

Frale, a researcher at the Vatican archives, said Friday that she used computers to enhance images of faintly written words in Greek, Latin and Aramaic scattered across the shroud.

She asserts the words include the name "Jesus Nazarene" in Greek, proving the text could not be of medieval origin because no Christian at the time, even a forger, would have labeled Jesus a Nazarene without referring to his divinity.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091120/ap_on_re_eu/eu_italy_shroud_of_turin

---

Barabara Frale, the researcher in question, has a huge conflict of interest. She is an employee of the Vatican. According to this 2004 article, "Barbara Frale earned a doctorate at the University of Venice with a dissertation based on documents pertaining to the Templars' trial and is an official of the Vatican's Secret Archive," Therefore, she has a financial stake in this. If she ever contradiced the official stories put forth by her boss (The Vatican), she would lose her job.


The AP uses a misleading headline ("researcher," as opposed to "Vatican official," or "Vatican-paid reseaerch," presumably because the AP'S main goal is not to inform its readers, but to get lots of traffic. If the AP headline read "Vatican researcher," many people wouldn't even bother reading past the headline.

[FiveGoodMen]

1. AGAIN?!@

[NRaleighLiberal]

2. Vatican coffers running dry? Needing a bit of business, perhaps?

[madmom]

26. Yeah, to help pay for those retiring priests...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7054150&mesg_id=7054150

[fascisthunter]

3. corny

[CTyankee]

14. Boy, you said it! I was in Turin in May 2008 and I thought the thing was too hokey for words.

I didn't bother. Too busy with the coffee, the wonderful chocolate, the cuisine...

[fascisthunter]

60. I Have to Go to Italy

The architecture in europe really inspires me. Italy would probably blow my mind away since I have never been there before, just driven through the northern part.

[Garam_Masala]

63. Have you visited Leaning Tower of Pisa?

It is stunning! It is much much bigger than I had imagined from pictures in my
science classes. It has all white marble facade and so does the church next to it.
The tower is actually the bell tower for the church. It is visible from miles away.
The area is a bit over commercialized with tons of souvenir shops in Miracle Square
as the area is called because it was completely spaqred by allied bombers during WWII.

[fascisthunter]

65. no... but that is a must!

interesting tidbit on the Pisa... did not know it was just a bell tower for a church.

[CTyankee]

67. If you go to Tuscany, I highly recommend Lucca, the walled town.

What a lovely town it is! A jewel and not too many tourists. Great cuisine! Here is an article just to tantalize you http://travel2.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/travel/24LUCCA.html.

Luccans have yellow pasta because over the centuries they have been rich and could afford eggs to put in their pasta dough. We had a fabulous mid day meal there in 2006...

[fascisthunter]

77. thank you... checking it out right now.

[CTyankee]

78. Another town I "discovered" is Perugia, in Umbria.

I thought I'd hate it but I loved it. Again, great food and chocolate in equisite chocolate boutiques, unlike any candy store I've ever been in here.
You might also look north to Ferrara...quite gorgeous. Then go to Verona. I thought I'd hate it because I envisioned hordes of tourists at Juliet's house. But I just fell in love with it. It has a Roman arena, much like the Coliseum in Rome, only in better shape. I found Ravenna to be almost empty of people (in mid May!) and so I was able to see the famous mosaics there w/o any crowds. I just hopped on trains to these places and it was well worth it...

[fascisthunter]

79. I hope to visit Italy in the next Five Years or so

I believe it's the fact that so much history stands all around you, that fascinates me so much. While in Germany, I had seen old architecture and I just felt at home. Everywhere you look, well almost everywhere, there is a piece of history staring back at you, giving you a glimpse into the past. That alone spaces me out, regardless of who I am with at the time, I lose focus and just imagine what my surroundings were like, hundreds of years ago...

someday

[CTyankee]

83. Exactly! The history of places is overwhelming to me.

In Siricusa Sicily I stood at a sea wall on the Mediterranean in the place where Sparta sank the Athenian navy, ending the Peloponnesian War some 2500 years ago. It was an extraordinary moment...

[Garam_Masala]

71. Picture of Leaning Tower of Pisa

It was a magnificent sunny day in August 2008 when I was visited the tower.
You can see the church in the background.

Notice how small the people are in relation to the tower! Look at that person
behind a pillar on 4th floor balcony.

[fascisthunter]

76. just logged back in this morning... wow

beautiful picture... thank you for that!

[Orrex]

4. Tell them we already have one.

[MNDemNY]

5. ,

:thumbsup:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

8. would they trade it for a shrubbery?

a rubbery one? or even a rabbit shaped one?

[poverlay]

13. NEE! n/t

[jimshoes]

21. Noo.....

:)

[poverlay]

42. "Are you saying 'Nee' to that old woman?..Oh, what sad times are there when passing ruffians can say

'Nee' at will to old ladies."

[pipoman]

51. NOOOOOOOOOOOOO.....Ecky, ecky, ecky, ecky, thump! eom

[laughingliberal]

29. Maybe just a nice one, not too expensive nt

[irishcat]

31. Oh yes,

It's Verrry nice!

[CreekDog]

6. It's real alright

real linen. :think:

[Speck Tater]

7. Any scientific researcher who uses the word "proved" is, by definition, a quack.

Supporting evidence is not proof, and only a complete hack would make such a claim.

[jpak]

9. Is this really LBN?

what horseshit

[Lerkfish]

10. the shroud of turin is an enigma to me.

not being catholic, although I respect their beliefs, I don't understand all of them.


If they believe on faith, it shouldn't matter if the shroud is fake or not. Jesus can be real and the shroud be fake, one does not prove or disprove the other.

[Mithreal]

12. Trinkets are their best "proof" that the stories were real

I guess many wonder why God doesn't do the big miracles like parting the seas anymore and relics are the next best thing.

It's hard believing in the unseen, reminds me a lot of our political situation.

[CTyankee]

17. Trinkets were the WORST in Assisi. They were trying to sell candles blessed by the monks

in the Basilica of St. Francis. I thought that was blasphemous. The street vendors of religious trinkets were bad enough. But INSIDE the Basilica?????

[Peace Patriot]

40. Yeah, I've noticed that, too--the similarities of Corporate Rule to the transnational rule of

the Roman Catholic Church from circa 500 AD to circa 1500 AD. The Church became so pervasive in its mind control--with the self-proclaimed power to consign people to Hell--and in its control of all imagery and books, that almost no one questioned this imprisonment of the human mind and soul. It was just "the air everyone breathed." Their power crossed borders, accumulating vast properties that belonged to "Rome" ; they controlled kings--they assumed the God-given power to crown kings; they could command armies to do their bidding; they monopolized the written word--laws, public records, historical records, treaties, and all opinion, 'news' and literature, because only the churchmen were literate; and they used a language, common to themselves, but that no one else could fathom--it was the rare noble or king who could read, write or speak Latin--and to everyone else, it was incomprehensible; it created a vast network of clerics, priests, monks, bishops--all part of this big "club" with their secret language and their secret to immortality--to defend this transnational realm and confound ordinary people; and, finally, the Church lived forever--like our Corporations--accumulating more and more power. It had that same eternal elan.

It took western Europe a thousand years to begin throwing off this oppressor. I hope it doesn't take us that long--and I don't think it will--to throw off its modern incarnation, the Corporate Rulers--"the air we breathe," that most people don't even think of questioning. We have our accumulated history and at least the memory of democracy to help us out.

[prestonPjr21]

15. Good call!!!

That`s right...:toast:

[AtheistCrusader]

18. Proving is the important part.

Disproving is not relevant. It is up to them to prove the existence of, and divinity of their claimed messiah. The Shroud is just another idol that doesn't prove anything useful.

[Yupster]

34. That's pretty much the Vatican's position

They don't claim it to be real.

They say your faith rests on faith, not the Shroud.

It's always interested me too.

[edwardian]

47. Well,

in this case the shroud is real (linen) and Jesus is fake (wholecloth).

[Lerkfish]

48. a vegetarian told me once...

that she was at a picnic with another vegetarian friend. She started complaining loudly to everyone around her about how there weren't enough vegetarian dishes, and her friend said:

"DO be a vegetarian, DON"T be an asshole"

[DemBones DemBones]

84. That's great! We are vegetarians with

a vegan daughter. She will love that story, too.

[No Elephants]

50. People who flatly assert that Jesus is fake have less proof than those who flatly assert that he

lived.

[edwardian]

66. Such a silly argument.

I flatly claim Santa Claus is also fake, and have just as much proof for this as I do that Jesus is fake. Believing in fantasy does not make it real. Historical proof is required to authenticate any "historical being". People who assert that Jesus is real are just deluding themselves. Now, the Bishop of Anatolia is a historical source for the story of Santa Claus, but Santa is not real. The stroy of Jesus is nothing more than a recompilation of the historic myths of other messiahs, ie: Horus, etc.

[ngant17]

68. IMHO people tend to believe in Jesus

not because of any historical facts to verify that this person lived, as opposed to his mythical origins, but probably because our modern Gregorian/Julian calendar is based on the mythical birth of Jesus. So that creates a sort of subliminal suggestion that he must have actually been born and lived.

Of course, the Norse gods are saturated in our days of the week, but I don't think that creates the same sort of mental reinforcement we have with the Julian calendar beginning in "0 A.D.".

We could help dispel a lot of the Christian mythological nonsense by adopting a calendar based on science and not mythology. Such as the Julian Day Number used by astronomers.

[No Elephants]

49. In that view, you seem to agree with the official position of Roman Catholic Church for centuries.

"According to the 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia

Owing mainly to the researches of Canon Ulysse Chevalier a series of documents was discovered which clearly proved that in 1389 the Bishop of Troyes appealed to Clement VII, the Avignon Pope then recognized in France, to put a stop to the scandals connected to the Shroud preserved at Lirey. It was, the Bishop declared, the work of an artist who some years before had confessed to having painted it but it was then being exhibited by the Canons of Lirey in such a way that the populace believed that it was the authentic shroud of Jesus Christ. The pope, without absolutely prohibiting the exhibition of the Shroud, decided after full examination that in the future when it was shown to the people, the priest should declare in a loud voice that it was not the real shroud of Christ, but only a picture made to represent it. The authenticity of the documents connected with this appeal is not disputed."

<snip>

"In 1389, the image was denounced as a fraud by Bishop Pierre D'Arcis in a letter to the Avignon Antipope Clement VII, mentioning that the image had previously been denounced by his predecessor Henri de Poitiers, who had been concerned that no such image was mentioned in scripture. Bishop D'Arcis continued, "Eventually, after diligent inquiry and examination, he discovered how the said cloth had been cunningly painted, the truth being attested by the artist who had painted it, to wit, that it was a work of human skill and not miraculously wrought or bestowed." (In German:<29> .) The artist is not named in the letter.<30>"

<snip>

"Despite the pronouncement of Bishop D'Arcis, Antipope Clement VII (first antipope of the Western Schism) prescribed indulgences for pilgrimages to the shroud, so that veneration continued, though the shroud was not permitted to be styled the "True Shroud."<31>"

<snip>

"The Vatican newspaper Osservatore Romano covered the story of Secondo Pia's photograph of May 28, 1898 in its June 15, 1898 edition, but it did so with no comment and thereafter Church officials generally refrained from officially commenting on the photograph for almost half a century."

<snip>

"In 1983 the Shroud was given to the Holy See by the House of Savoy.<93> However, as with all relics of this kind, the Roman Catholic Church made no pronouncements claiming whether it is Jesus' burial shroud, or if it is a forgery. As with other approved Catholic devotions, the matter has been left to the personal decision of the faithful, as long as the Church does not issue a future notification to the contrary. In the Church's view, whether the cloth is authentic or not has no bearing whatsoever on the validity of what Jesus taught nor on the saving power of his death and resurrection.<94><95>"

<snip>

"Pope John Paul II stated in 1998 that:<96>

"Since we're not dealing with a matter of faith, the church can't pronounce itself on such questions. It entrusts to scientists the tasks of continuing to investigate, to reach adequate answers to the questions connected to this Shroud."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin


The controversial Pope Pius perhaps went the furtherest in the other direction:

"First association
The first official association between the image on the Shroud and the Catholic Church was made in 1940 based on the formal request by Sister Maria Pierina De Micheli to the curia in Milan to obtain authorization to produce a medal with the image. The authorization was granted and the first medal with the image was offered to Pope Pius XII who approved the medal. The image was then used on what became known as the Holy Face Medal worn by many Catholics, initially as a means of protection during the Second World War. In 1958 Pope Pius XII approved of the image in association with the devotion to the Holy Face of Jesus, and declared its feast to be celebrated every year the day before Ash Wednesday.<91><92> Following the approval by Pope Pius XII, Catholic devotions to the Holy Face of Jesus have been almost exclusively associated with the image on the shroud."

Id.

[Atman]

11. A VATICAN researcher? Conflict much?

Jesus.

.

[frylock]

16. what was the thread count?

[DebbieCDC]

22. ROFL

1,000 thread count Egyptian cotton

[AlbertCat]

36. 1,000 thread count Egyptian cotton

Don't laugh.

The shroud is apparently woven in a weave never ever found in the area at the time of Jesus.

This is not "proof" it's fake....but it's better than saying "Nobody would use the word Jesus without calling him THE Jesus at that time."

Of course if someone found a fragment of cloth in the Holy Land from the time of Jesus that was the same weave, that would be significant to such a debunk. But how are you gonna "prove" something like "Nobody back then would say that!" Yeah.... that beats carbon dating!

On the next line it says "Jesus is just alright with me. Jesus is just alright, oh yeah!" but she missed that apparently.

[No Elephants]

52. I didn't realize Overstock.com was that old.

Not to pull threads, but the cloth, or the raw material from which the cloth was woven, could have been imported from almost anywhere. Trade among nations was known millenia before the birth of Jesus.

[sakabatou]

64. It's over 9000!!!

[alfredo]

19. So Christ had Vermillion running through his veins and that

paint bled out onto the shroud?

[thereismore]

Now, what an ignorant comment. You obviously do not know much about the shroud. nt

[alfredo]

33. A scientist from my town was on the team that did the first

big scientific analysis of the shroud a few years back. He tested the "blood stains" and found Vermillion. They kicked him off the team. He was a chemist from the University of Kentucky.

[spoony]

69. What's his name?

And what year was this? Because the first analysis wasn't "a few years back."

[alfredo]

82. 1978. Carbon dating found it was from the middle ages, and the man who

made the shroud hoax confessed. At that time there was a big trade in holy land "artifacts" that were looted from the Mideast by Crusaders.

The researcher was Joe Nickell.

You also need to research burial practices of the Jews of that time. They did not use burial cloths like that of the Shroud. Look at images of Muslim funerals to get a better Idea of the practices of the region. The body is wrapped and a separate cloth is used for the face. The wrapping makes it easier to transport the corpse to the burial grounds. Once the flesh has completely decomposed, the bones are placed in an ossuary. The soul can't be resurrected until the flesh (sin) has been removed.


The Romans let the deceased rot on the cross. There was no burial. That was probably done for two reasons: a deterrent to others and to prevent a proper burial for the executed criminal.

the only crucified corpse found showed that the spikes were driven into the forearm/wrist. The spike went through the side of the foot. That was done to make the experience longer and more painful because he could support himself somewhat. To make it more painful and to hasten death, they'd break the legs of the prisoner. If they wanted him to die quickly, no support was provided.


or




Here's another form of crucifixion. It is called a "Palestinian Crucifixion" because it was used by Israel against the Palestinians. The Israelis have ceased torture.

The image below is from Abu Ghraib. When his legs give out, he is suspended by the wrists causing asphyxiation. I've experienced it and it is quite painful.

[Roland99]

88. What about this claim that the piece carbon-dated was from a patch applied in the 1500s?

http://shroud2000.com/CarbonDatingNews.html

[alfredo]

89. Why would the team agree on using the patched region? That doesn't make

sense. That's assuming there was a patched region.

How do you explain away the man who made the shroud confessing to creating the shroud? What about the other purported shrouds or the multitude of pieces of the true cross? Why do you need concrete proof for something that is supposed to be based on faith? Holy land hucksters were a dime a dozen due to the Crusaders returning to hawk relics looted or bought.

I seriously doubt that he was buried because the Romans kept the condemned on the cross to rot. I read this morning that over time they started running out of space for the crosses. Not all were crosses. Some were a pole, the condemned nailed up with both arms above his head.


Try this: get some face paint, and paint your face and hair. Lay on your back and put a cloth over your face and pat down so it make contact with the paint. Now take it off and look at the imprint. If your hair is long like that in the shroud, would it fall as if the person is standing?

The men of that time wore their hair and beard short. They didn't sport long flowing locks. That was the influence of the Roman occupiers.


BTW, the arms of the person in the shroud has unusually long. Have you ever seen a person buried with his hands hiding his genitals?

If you rely on pollen to fix the location of the shroud, be aware that pollen is carried across the world on air currents. Ragweed pollen from the US can be found in Europe. The Scirocco carries north African pollen to Europe. In winter months the wind patterns blow from Turkey and as far south as Saudi Arabia, west or north west over Greece and Italy.

[Roland99]

90. Oh, I'm not defending that the shroud is some type of burial cloth of Jesus

But I have seen and read documentaries of the shroud in that it was repaired after it was damaged by a fire and, according to that link I posted above, perhaps the piece sampled for carbon dating was taken from a newer section that was from those repairs?

Meaning, if a sample could be taken from a non-patched portion and carbon-dating testing performed again, it should deflate the doubters' claims, once and for all.

[alfredo]

92. Still the fact remains that they know who made the shroud. The church

investigated and found it to be a hoax. The hoaxer confessed.

I'm sure they were smart enough to take samples from the original cloth.

[Roland99]

91. Hey, btw, I was thinking just last night about resurrecting the Folding@Home posts

I'll have to do that tonight.


:-)

[alfredo]

93. thank you! PM me when you do.

[ORDagnabbit]

20. the catholic church will do anything to stay in control of people... duh.

[wryter2000]

23. Huh?

the words include the name "Jesus Nazarene" in Greek, proving the text could not be of medieval origin because no Christian at the time, even a forger, would have labeled Jesus a Nazarene without referring to his divinity.

People in the middle ages didn't know Greek? Didn't their scripture at the time say he was born in Nazareth? Is there something I'm missing? How does calling him Nazarene refer to his divinity? Is everyone from Nazareth divine?

It reminds me of an older professor in my department who made fun of an overzealous evolutionist by saying, "Look at how perfectly evolved he is. His legs are just long enough for his feet to rest exactly on the ground."

[zeemike]

41. Well there may be a diference...

From Wikipedia

The Nazarene sect (ἡ τῶν Ναζωραίων αἵρεσις) from Hebrew נזרים), used in the Book of Acts,<1> clearly referred to both Jewish and Gentile followers of Jesus' Apostles. The same word, "Ναζωραῖοι", that is used in its genitive case in the phrase "ἡ τῶν Ναζωραίων αἵρεσις" is used of an early Jewish Christian sect similar to the Ebionites, in that they maintained their adherence to the Torah, but unlike the Ebionites, they accepted the virgin birth of Jesus <2><3>.

[No Elephants]

53. You missed the thrust of the words you italicized. Their salient point is

"without referring to his divinity."

I don't now if the statement is accurate or not, but that was its point.

[glinda]

24. BLECH* just in time for christmas.

[question everything]

25. Does not matter. Faith and reason are diametrically opposed

When one starts adding facts to any belief system, someone has already lost.

[No Elephants]

55. Evidence can bolster faith.

If someone could definitively prove that Jesus, son of Mary, was born in Bethlehem during the time of Caesar Augustus, that would bolster the faith of many people that Luke 2 is accurate and that said Jesus is the Son of God. It still would not prove that Jesus was the Son of God. The shroud would not do that either, even if the shroud could be traced to someone crucified in Jerusalem under Pontius Pilate ake a few years).

It is the "Son of God" part that requires faith.

I do understand that you mean that the need for faith would be gone if one could prove definitively that Jesus was indeed the Son of God, but how likely is that (barring the rapture)? Meanwhile, though, anything that tends to confirm the Biblical account would, I imagine, also tend to strengthen faith in the essential point; i.e., the divinity of Jesus.

[edwardian]

86. Faith

is belief without reason. Adding facts to the issue (though the shroud is not such a fact, being a forgery/art object) dissolves the value of faith. But then again, for a rational being, religious faith is a fantasy that gets fed to the gullible.

[Ozymanithrax]

27. They should let it be what it is...

A masterpiece of medieval art and a glorious con job.

[ooglymoogly]

28. Trotting out this tired old shibboleth..... again.

It is a fake, a fake proved definitively by radiocarbon dating 14 in 1988AD and is dated to 1260-1390AD postdating the death of the man famously called Jesus by a millennium. Nothing more than the church reasserting it's "god" given right to lie or commit any crime for control and profit; As long as enough penance is done it is A okay; Longing for the days when the shroud was proof final of the churches authenticity and brought in boucups de bucks. They "Christians" have challenged the dating since it was done and are still selling the relic as the holiest of holies and authentic to the time of Jesus and proof positive the church lives in the real world and is not just a bunch of puffed up fakery for the benefit of lotsa, lotsa, lotsa, lotsa money and power over others.

[No Elephants]

56. Please see Replies 49 and 55. People on all sides of this issue get too carried away.

I don't know what to believe about the Shroud. However, the official position of the Catholic Church so far seems to be that it doesn't know what to believe about the Shroud, either, but it does not matter, when it comes to the crucial issue of whether or not Jesus, son of Mary, was the Son of God incarnate. In the end, that is the only issue that matters--and that pretty much rests on whether he was resurrected, not on which cloth, if any, wrapped him (assuming he was ever born as man in the first instance).

[eppur_se_muova]

30. So what if it is? nt

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Seldona]

35. People can be such idiots.

I would love to get into those archives though. Imagine the breadth of knowledge they have repressed over the centuries?

[AlbertCat]

37. Imagine the breadth of knowledge they have repressed over the centuries?

Before or after they burned down the Library at Alexandria?

[onehandle]

38. The Vatican has already declared it a fake. But DUers will think this is from the Vatican itself.

LOL!

[AlphaCentauri]

45. .

:thumbsup:

[No Elephants]

57. It has not remained that clear cut. Please see Reply #49.

[Moonwalk]

39. I'm confused, can't Jesus just appear in everyone's living room and tell us all--

--that it's the real deal if it's the real deal? I mean, he is god right? He can do that.

[No Elephants]

58. I can appear in your living room, too. I choose not to. Hope that clears up your confusion.

;-) ;-)

Edited to add emote.

[Owl]

43. Vatican researcher.... Enough said.

[Blue For You]

44. A cheap gimmick for a religion steeped in gimmickry.

Jesus, master of trickery and cleverly devised fables.

[greengestalt]

46. R. Crumb's book of Genesis

Underground Comix artist Robert Crumb did a graphic translation of the "Book of Genesis".
Near 100%KJV in source, nobody will accuse him of adapting it to suit his own beliefs, he puts it out word for word.
At your local bookstore or Amazon.com


Good gift to a religious friend.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

54. I was laughing so hard, tears came out.

That is a wicked good book, a great gift for the truly deluded faithful.

[spoony]

70. In what respect, Charlie?

Everything I've seen says it's a perfectly faithful, beautifully rendered telling. What's so "wicked" about it?

[No Elephants]

59. Where to begin?

1/ Our mass media sucks, almost across the board.

2/ Ron Fournier of AP loves him some religious right, as has been shown by both his career moves and his email to Karl Rove. Given his position there, IMO, it's safe to assume that AP is not hostile to the religious right.

3/ According to the article linked in the OP. Barbara Frale's conclusion about the shroud seems to based upon at least three toally unfounded assumptions: 1/ if the shroud has writing, it must have been a Christian who wrote on it, when the writer could conceivably have been a Jew, an atheist or anyone else; and 2/ NO Christian of medieveal times, not a single one, would have referred to Jesus of Nazareth without mentioning his divinity; and 3/ if the shroud is not medieval, it must be authentic. Talk about leaps of faith!!!

Frale's assumptions, though, are no worse (or better) than some of the unsupported assumptions made on this thread.

[DavidDvorkin]

61. A real burial shroud for a mythological man

That's remarkable.

[IndianaGreen]

62. The Shroud of Turin was made in China

in one of the maquiladoras. Deal with it!

[and-justice-for-all]

72. how absurd and naive...

of course it is a fraud; because there is not proof that jeebus ever lived, which I am confident he did not.

[USA_1]

73. Impossible

As a Jew, burial inscriptions (if any) would be in Hebrew, not in the Greek language. Moreover, he was known as Yahshauh, not as Jesus. The New Testament reveals that he was buried by Jews, not by Greeks. I seriously doubt that any of them were literate. Greek was barely spoken in that area in those days.

[DavidDvorkin]

74. Very interesting.

[deutsey]

80. I don't think that's accurate

It's been a while, but I studied the New Testament in a master's level class. If I remember correctly, Greek was pretty much the lingua franca of the world at that time thanks to Alexander the Great.

My memory isn't something to put 100% faith in, though. Doing a quick google search, however, many sites seem to support my recollection.

[DavidDvorkin]

81. Not on the part of Jews for religious rituals, though.

[deutsey]

85. Yeah, that makes sense.

I was pretty sure that Greek was spoken and written in Judea at the time, though.

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

75. Bwahahahaaahaaa!

Awesome. Way to go, Catholics! Stay in those Middle Ages and don't let all this talk of "science" fool you!

[Roland99]

87. Wasn't there *real* research done years ago that showed it was created around 12th-14th century?