Saudi rapist and murderer to be beheaded and crucified

[emad]

Source: times

A Saudi man convicted of kidnapping and raping five children, one of whom he left in the desert to die, has been sentenced to be beheaded and his body publicly crucified, the Saudi Arabian media said today.

The court upheld the gruesome death sentence against Muhammed Basheer al-Ramaly, 22, from the northern city of Hail, and ordered his execution to take place at noon tomorrow, according to Saudi reports.

Under Saudi law, he will first be beheaded by sword, then his body will be tied to a wooden cross and his head stuck on a pole in public as a deterrent to other would-be killers.

Al-Ramaly was found guilty in February of abducting and raping five boys, the eldest of whom was seven and the youngest, aged only three, who he left in the desert to die. The child’s decaying corpse was later found by police outside town.




Read more: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6901317.ece

---

The biblical approach seems a bit pointless.

[tekisui]

1. That story is sickening from begin to end.

Really disturbing.

[JerseygirlCT]

65. Yes.

You said it.

[JonQ]

2. I can't help but think if the case had been exactly the same, but

instead they'd been girls he probably would have been found not guilty (they can't testify against men and should probably be stoned to death for leading him on). Maybe he would have had to compensate the father financially, but he certainly wouldn't have been executed.

And of course this is a barbaric and outdated practice. That being said, given what he did, I have a hard time working up much outrage over his punishment. It's not right, but it's not all that wrong either.

[coffeenap]

3. Just thinking the same...nt

[kestrel91316]

6. He's getting off easy. Beheading is painless when done swiftly.

Of course, the corpse abuse is a bit much, but he won't know or care.

[AnneD]

88. My thoughts exactly....

they have the order reversed.

[old mark]

11. He will certainly never harm another child......nt

[LynneSin]

17. That's what totally bugs me about all of this

If that was 5 young girls, the girls would probably end dead thanks to their family's doing an 'honor kill' on them.

[NoSheep]

54. ding

[SemperEadem]

63. me, too...

if it were girls who were the victims, they would have been the ones beheaded and crucified.

[Dorian Gray]

82. I do wonder about that as well....

but we can't possibly know for sure if that's the case.

I do feel for the poor children who suffered because of this man.

[Dead_Parrot]

4. Well, at least they are going after the criminal, not the victims

That's remarkably forward thinking by their standards.

[ieoeja]

16. Only because the victims are male.

[progressivebydesign]

69. that's what I wondered. It seems women are punished if they are raped, there. n/t

[david_vincent]

5. The very same attitude is prevalent throughout much of the US,

especially in Texas. The idea that someone whose actions stem from mental derangement is, in fact, a rational actor whose behavior is governed by decisions freely chosen by a stable mind results in the view that such people should be put to death. There is no essential difference between what Saudi Arabia will do to this guy and what Texas wants to do to women who kill their children out of post-partum depression. In both cases, the "guilty" party acted from a condition of mental derangement.
Putting someone like this to death has absolutely no deterrent effect unless you're somehow stupid enough to believe that people choose to be mentally ill.
Even if you ascribe to the position that there are sometimes cases in which society can and should simply exact revenge, there's no point to dismemberment, crucifixion, etc. since it serves no purpose at all unless the victims' family members are allowed to choose to participate.

[JonQ]

9. Yep no different from TX

Except, you know, if you look at facts rather than making up lies:

Although the defense's expert testimony agreed that Yates was psychotic, Texas law requires that, in order to successfully assert the insanity defense, the defendant must prove that he or she could not discern right from wrong at the time of the crime. In March 2002, a jury rejected the insanity defense and found Yates guilty. Although the prosecution had sought the death penalty, the jury refused that option. The trial court sentenced Yates to life imprisonment with eligibility for parole in 40 years.<16>

On January 6, 2005, the Texas Court of Appeals reversed the convictions, because California psychiatrist and prosecution witness Dr. Park Dietz admitted he had given materially false testimony during the trial. Dietz stated that shortly before the killings, an episode of Law & Order had aired featuring a woman who drowned her children and was acquitted of murder by reason of insanity. Author Suzanne O'Malley, who was covering the trial for Oprah magazine and had previously been a writer for Law & Order, immediately reported that no such episode existed;<17> the appellate court held that the jury may have been influenced by his false testimony and that thus a new trial would be necessary. (Later, in 2004, Law & Order: Criminal Intent did air the episode "Magnificat", based in part on Yates' case.)

On January 9, 2006, Yates again entered pleas of not guilty by reason of insanity. On February 1, 2006, she was granted release on bail on the condition that she be admitted to a mental health treatment facility.<18>

On July 26, 2006, after three days of deliberations, Yates was found not guilty by reason of insanity, as defined by the state of Texas. She was thereafter committed to the North Texas State Hospital - Vernon Campus.<19> In January 2007, Yates was moved to a low security state mental hospital in Kerrville, Texas.<4>

[david_vincent]

12. You could throw a stone into the air in TX

and hit someone who wanted her put to death, including family and friends of mine. Are you really going to argue that?

[JonQ]

13. Ah, using the old:

they probably wanted to do it even though no one can show that, technique.

Where are you from? I'd like to make unfounded generalizations about your state.

[david_vincent]

19. If you would actually read my post,

you would see that the subject is "attitude". You're talking about the case, not attitudes. You do know the difference between apples and oranges, right? You did have to take a logic course, right? Right...? never mind...
You can't rebut what I said because I wasn't talking about the case, but about attitudes that have been expressed to me by people I know who are Texans, including the belief expressed by one friend of mine that we should set Iran straight by nuking them. You're trying to defend the honor of Texas but to do that you'll have to admit what you're starting out with.
For that matter, how much time, effort, and money was expended to reach the outcome of the case in question? Court costs, legal fees, person-hours, sheer hard work... ?
The point of my post was that people who are mentally ill aren't responsible for their actions, but that in many parts of the world including here in the US, that very simple fact hasn't yet been accepted and is still disputed. If you want to argue that, then start a new thread stating your belief that the mentally ill should be put to death when they kill.

[JonQ]

22. You're right, I can't rebut what you said

because it has no factual basis, it's merely your opinion. Like if someone were to say "I bet all black people really want to be lazy and steal from white folks, that's their attitude even if they don't do it". Technically they can't be refuted because that's an opinion and they could always slink away using that defense "I said 'I bet', not 'I have empirical data for' sheesh" and it's based on perceived opinions rather than actual polls or recorded actions.

"The point of my post was that people who are mentally ill aren't responsible for their actions, but that in many parts of the world including here in the US, that very simple fact hasn't yet been accepted and is still disputed. If you want to argue that, then start a new thread stating your belief that the mentally ill should be put to death when they kill."

Perhaps if you wish to start a thread bashing 24 million americans you should start your own thread. I was merely responding to your unnecessary and inaccurate slur.

[depakid]

21. You're the Texan who claims the punishment here was "not all that wrong!"

You reside in a punishment obsessed state where the vast majority supports a draconian "justice" system that executes routinely- and has a long history of convicting innocent people.

It's the "gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet" thing. Given that's the case, of course people elsewhere are going to pipe up from time to time about it.

[JonQ]

25. Way to misquote

how typical of someone from oregon. Do you people ever tell the truth up there?

Here's the full quote: And of course this is a barbaric and outdated practice. That being said, given what he did, I have a hard time working up much outrage over his punishment. It's not right, but it's not all that wrong either.

Anyone who could read that and assume "jonq wholeheartedly endorses this action" is either intentionally misreading it or suffers from some sort of learning disability. Let me know which, if it's the latter I will try to be more understanding.

There is a big difference between "I support this as a punishment enshrined by law" and "I'm not going to lose any sleep when bad things happen to bad people". I know that's rather complicated for an oregonian, but do you get what I'm saying?

[depakid]

27. It's either "not all that wrong" or it is "all that wrong"

And it does in fact exemplify the callous attitude toward criminal justice that one often hears- and sees in stories from the state.

Not that Texas is alone in this of course. There are others- and I think most know which they are.

[JonQ]

28. I see, so you've cried for every murderer, rapist, child abuser

etc who has ever had misfortune befall them?

Must be exhausting.

[depakid]

31. Just not a believer in routine execution and draconian punishment

No matter who it is- because of course, it's a slippery slope. Find someone that "deserves it" and you end up a nation full of torturers.

Which is exactly what America- and Americans became.

This in addition to creating and maintaining the world's largest and most expensive prison system- one that incidentally, is bankrupting states or causing them to slash education funding.

[JonQ]

35. Amazing isn't it?

How a thread on saudi arabia almost immediately turns in to america bashing.

OP: saudi arabia crucifies rapist.
You: America is a nation of torturers that maintains the worlds largest prison system at the expense of education and all americans support this. I'm so ashamed of this country.

[depakid]

36. Facts are hardly bashing-

unless of course, one doesn't like hearing them.

And yep- it is indeed a source of shame to many of us- just as it is a source of economic decline for everyone.

[JonQ]

41. I've looked over this thread

and so far you've used saudi arabias actions to attack the US, Texas and DU. At no point did you consider using them to criticize saudi arabia.

Go back and check. Those are some facts for you to chew on.

[depakid]

48. LOL- no, I'm simply repeating your words and reflecting on your colloquy with another poster

That and noting that you can find barbaric comments about what to do with criminals in abundance on newspaper comment threads- and even on DU.

It's a pattern- and this is the same set of attitudes that led the country to have a larger prison system than Chine, India or Russia (where capital punishment has been abolished). It's the same set of attitudes that led you to become a nation of torturers.

Quite a few- possibly a majority had (and may still have) no problem with that.

[JonQ]

57. You seem to take greater issue with what you falsely

perceive to be barbaric thoughts, than you do with very real barbaric actions.

[depakid]

72. Texas and Saudi Arabia both have barbaric criminal justice systems

The difference is more of degree than of kind- though in both places, their practices have the support of a large majority of their citizens (which is why Perry behaved the way he did with the State Forensic Science Commission).

[JonQ]

87. Clearly you've never been to either place

or are particularly well educated on either.

Out of curiosity, if this were a news piece about Texas executing a mentally retarded individual would you go off on a rant about Saudi Arabia as being no better (in fact far worse)?

Yeah, didn't think so.

You've got a Texas-sized chip on your shoulder regarding my state and I think you should get that looked at.

[proteus_lives]

44. This is depakid you're talking about.

It could be a kittens stuck in a tree thread and he'll still fire up the hate.

It's funny and kinda sad.

[JonQ]

46. I think you have to ask yourself,

why does americas imperialist military-industrial complex/torturing prison system tolerate kittens being stuck in trees? Why does this scenario only play out in the US? And particularly in Texas?

When are we going to wake up and address this source of national shame?

[proteus_lives]

55. Nicely done.

:rofl:

I put it in the air and you got it over the net. High-five!

[depakid]

50. Project much?

Coming from one of the jail 'em all criminal outrage addicts, that's actually amusing.

[proteus_lives]

56. Well, projection must be in your DNA.

It's sad really.

The hate-junkie projects to avoid shining the light on his one-track mind.

[Skittles]

58. oops

[cali]

24. comparing a child rapist to a woman who suffers postpartum psychosis

and kills her children is absolutely absurd. period.

[tXr]

29. Some folks around here will seize upon ANY opportunity to get in a little Texas bashing.

I agree that the comparison is absurd.

[woo me with science]

79. Does your knee hurt? nt

[RedCloud]

7. Maybe they could use his head for a bowling ball?

Seems like they want to keep desecrating the body?

[musicblind]

8. Lets hope and pray they convicted the right guy of this crime!

Given how flawed our legal system is... I'd hate to think this guy wasn't framed by a corrupt legal system and the actual still out there laughing. :(

[JonQ]

10. I think saudi arabia is in another jurisdiction

not part of our legal system at all.

[musicblind]

77. Well, duh :-P

I guess I did word that awkwardly lol.

I meant, our judicial system is cursed with documented problems so I could only imagine what problems the legal system in Saudi Arabia has.

But it did come out rather oddly phrased in that post :P

[Techn0Girl]

14. I have NO love for rapists but....

Why are we allies with such a barbaric and uncultured country?
Oil? Is that the real reason? Don't they need our food and military security at least as much as we need their oil?
Isn't the real reason that people like the Bush's made a mint at our expense by partnering with them? And still continue to do so.

Beheading and crucifixion . Really?

The man need to be put away for ever and I'd even be willing to listen to a "humane" death penalty argument but beheading and crucifixion? What is this the dark ages!

The United States will never be clean or free of corruption until be absolutely stop partnering with these uncivilized and barbaric dictatorship cum monarchies and force such evil bastards out of power by withholding our monetary support and trade.

[enlightenment]

20. Beheading is as humane as lethal injection.

(I'm not a fan of the death penalty, btw). Unless they saw it off with a butter knife, it's quicker than lethal injection, too. How much time does a condemned person in this country spend waiting to die; being prepared to die; being led to the chamber, strapped down, hooked up to large bore IVs and then formally reminded of why they are going to die . . . before they press the button and deliver the first drug?

Frankly, I'd take the sharp sword.

[Techn0Girl]

32. Frankly ....

You really don't get it do you?

[enlightenment]

38. Clearly not, at least

as far as you're concerned. But then I've never been big on holier-than-thou . . .

[svpadgham]

34. I'm pretty sure if we did beheadings here

the process would be similar. It's not like they would cut your head off immediately upon sentencing. You'd wait, be taken to a room, strapped to a block, given your last rites, and wait for the end.

[Lorien]

84. Actually, you remain aware for around two minutes after being beheaded

I imagine it's a very LONG two minutes. There was a whole book of short stories devoted to this fact which imagined what went through the minds of famous people who had been beheaded for those 120 seconds.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

15. My uncle, while working as a contractor in Saudi during the 80s, had the displeasure of stumbling ..

... across the remnants of one of these "crucifixions" one night while walking home one night.

He said it resulted in instant projectile vomiting on his and his co-workers' part.

[depakid]

18. I'm sure posters in comment sections can find more excruciating punishments than that!

I've heard worse repeatedly over the years right here on DU!

[AllTooEasy]

23. Have him listen to ...

...Sarah Palin or Bill Kristol over and over again. That would teach him! He might yank his own skull off his kneck.

[slackmaster]

26. Not that I approve, but what's the point of crucifying AFTER beheading?

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of crucifixion?

[architect359]

30. It's the added message to the living.

Not so much a punishment for the deceased.

[Techn0Girl]

33. Right ...

Exactly right...
And the message is "We're in power and we can do anything we want to do to you in life or after death" . It's the message of despots everywhere.

Remember it was the Saudi nationals who primarily were the terrorosts the planes on 911.
The only reason we aren't treating the Saudi's like we are Cuba is that the ruling class here is making a fortune from them.

All to our great determent.

[Piewhacket]

43. Beheading is a marginally civilized but disfavored form of execution. Crucifiction is barbaric.

Crucifixion before beheading is torture.
Crucifixion after beheading is desecration of human remains,
degrading to the living.

Either of these is a barbaric practice which should
be abhorrent to any civilized person.*

* You are correct, I consider Cheney an uncivilized barbarian.
(I have some other names for him too)

[mule_train]

37. i get the impression they dont like him nt

[Ed76638]

39. Beheading THEN crucxificion?

That kind of defeats the purpose of the crucifixion. That's supposed to be a brutal punishment unto itself.

[iamthebandfanman]

61. nah, its not about the pain... setting an example for every one too look at

i guess even they are too humane to put a live person on there to torture and suffer....haha.

[mule_train]

40. it's 3:45 am saudi time, at 5:45 pm central time, 8 hrs 15 minutes to live-execution at 2am central

early tomorrow morning

8 hours 15 minutes to live, and it may not be a real pleasant 8 hours

he probably doesnt deserve it, but i do feel kind of sorry for him, facing such a fate so soon in the future

pleasant dreams, everyone

[mule_train]

42. I think I could see this punishment for the bankers nt

[proteus_lives]

45. I can't squeeze out any tears for a child rapist/murderer.

You want inhumane? Give him to the girls families.

[SOS]

91. Beheading is not limited to child rapist/murderer in Saudi Arabia

Here are other capital crimes for which the offender will have his head hacked off in the public square:

Adultery
Blasphemy
Homosexuality
Sedition
Prostitution
Witchcraft
Idolatry
Fornication

If you want inhumane punishment, Saudi Arabia is the place to be.
Saudi Arabia is ranked among the "worst of the worst" human rights abusers on earth by Freedom House.

[mule_train]

47. any society that puts a condemed man's head on a post/body on a cross is a savage society

i've resisted all the anti-muslim propaganda, but this shows that some of it is justified

desecration of any human remains is a universal mark of a barbarian

[superconnected]

51. I second that.

[superconnected]

49. It takes a lot to make a rapist of 5 children look saner than the gov.

But, that government has certainly pulled it off.

[superconnected]

52. It may be even worse than this - he may not have done it.

"Saudi reports said that police used one of the survivors, a seven-year-old boy believed to be of Yemeni origin, to scour the area where he was molested, looking for the suspect’s vehicle. After his capture Al-Ramaly allegedly confessed to the crime and was sentenced to death by a court in Hail, but appealed to a Court of Cassation in the capital Riyadh. That court upheld the sentence and ordered his immediate execution.
--------------------
From what I've read before, I don't trust their confession techniques.



also in the article:
"While Saudi Arabia carries out numerous beheadings – 102 last year, according to Amnesty International, with another 138 inmates on death row – crucifixions are relatively rare. The last one appears to have been in May, when the headless body of a sex murderer was displayed in the capital.

Death sentences are handed down in the Sunni Muslim kingdom for a variety of crimes, including murder, rape, apostasy and drug-smuggling."

-------
ah a society the demands and feels justified for blood.

[mule_train]

53. Death for apostasy? Now THAT'S f--ked up

apostasy
One entry found.


Main Entry: apos·ta·sy
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈpäs-tə-sē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural apos·ta·sies
Etymology: Middle English apostasie, from Late Latin apostasia, from Greek, literally, revolt, from aphistasthai to revolt, from apo- + histasthai to stand — more at stand
Date: 14th century
1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

[iamthebandfanman]

59. i guess him being dead when put on the cross

is more humane in their eyes? lol

i gotta admit, thatd be horrible torture to be put up there alive.

[mule_train]

62. how would you feel, knowing that in 6 hours 45 minutes, your headless body will be on a cross

and your head on a post?

i think that's as much torture, it's what he's going through right now

[iamthebandfanman]

74. hey, not defending what they are doing

sure, its torture... but he wont alive to feel it or see it.

like i said in another post, clearly being done to show him as an example of some sort and nothing more.

regardless its sick and barbaric.

[mule_train]

60. 'hay bay-bee, i have trans am'

only saudi phrase I know

[saigon68]

64. Mindless Primitives, SAVAGES

These thugs hold our country hostage.

They are scum

[Jack_DeLeon]

66. Nice...

Sounds like he is getting what he deserves.

[chrisa]

67. I was going to say this was a bit much...

Until I saw the part about how he stranded a boy in the desert to die.

.00000001% sympathy I had left vaporized instanteously.

[progressivebydesign]

68. Works for me. too bad we can't do that to them here. wonder if they'd do that if it was girls? n/t

[Alamuti Lotus]

70. a fitting tribute to his awful deeds

[Arrowhead2k1]

71. Whoa, just like Medieval Times. Maybe they should move the Tower of London over to Riyadh now.

[MrSlayer]

73. That seems backward.

They should crucify him first and then cut off his head. Kind of pointless the other way.

[scot]

76. You beat me to it.

[Alamuti Lotus]

78. Not really, each is a message delivered to a seperate audience

The beheading is direct punishment to the accused for his deeds, the display is a warning to others who might repeat his evil acts.

[New Dawn]

75. I'm sure that Sarah Palin is most pleased by this verdict.

[forum slut]

80. I wonder if they'll behead him with a box cutter?

[mule_train]

86. they have pretty effective box cutters in saudi arabia nt

[Dorian Gray]

81. Wow....

Hot damn, they don't mess around in Saudi Arabia.

The poor children who were killed by this monster.

[dugaresa]

83. "Well, at least it gets you out in the open air."

(wow, never thought I could use that quote)

To be honest, they could have drawn and quartered the bastard and that would have been even more barbaric.

Hard to sympathize with a barbaric child molestor though, however his punishment means that perhaps the next guy to decide to do this will kill all his victims to insure that he/she doesn't get punished.

[mule_train]

85. Isn't it ODD that in all the post-911 outrage, the fact that they were almost all saudi arabians

while never explicitly denied, was almost never mentioned?

if you're not punishing the country that did it, who are you punishing?

[forum slut]

89. Maybe it has something to do with this:

[mule_train]

90. outstanding reply nt