H-1B visa applications lowest since 2003

[Newsjock]

Source: San Jose Mercury News

More than six months after the federal government began accepting petitions for work visas popular with Silicon Valley companies, thousands of spots remain open, a reflection of the nation's high unemployment and the political pressure to hire citizens, experts say.

As of last week, 46,700 H-1B visa applications had been submitted, thousands less than the 65,000 allocated for fiscal year 2010 and the lowest number since 2003. The cap for 20,000 additional H-1B visas reserved for foreign graduates of U.S. colleges with at least a master's degree was met, though applications are still being accepted.

... Silicon Valley companies, where immigrants have played prominent roles in creating startups and new technology inventions, view the H-1B visa program as a way to grab the best talent from around the world. "For most of our clients, their mantra is: Hire the best person you can," Pearl added.

... Les French, president of WashTech, a Seattle-based union for tech professionals, which is critical of the visa program, predicts application levels will eventually rise again. "Once the economy picks up, you'll see a pickup in the applications," he said. "I think it will be lock-step with the economy."

Read more: http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_13680374

[thunder rising]

1. ONE NEW H1-B IS TOO MANY. Can we get a fucking break. 65,000 allocated for fiscal year 2010

God fucking damn ... They will not stop till there's blood in the streets.

[OhioChick]

2. +1 n/t

[ChromeFoundry]

3. +2 n/t

[atreides1]

5. If there is to be blood in the streets

It should be their blood.

[thunder rising]

7. It won't be...American police and military will kill Americans to protect the Corp slave trade

While the H1-Bs stand on the side and laugh

[Vehl]

16. A new low for DU

I hardly ever comment on the H1-B threads but watching fellow DU'ers advocate such extreme actions made me post.

:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

[No Elephants]

37. Did you meant to reply to # 5?

[Vehl]

46. For both

The 5th post could be interpreted as a metaphorical reference to job losses etc etc
so I chose to give that poster the benefit of the doubt, as I usually do when encountering posts that might hold multiple meanings.

but the 7th one was quite specific...that poster obviously took that post literally...and interpreted it as if people will get killed..and the roads will be flowing with blood.

"H1-Bs standing on the curb and laughing" removes any doubt as to how the 7th poster interpreted the 5th post.It's quite obvious from this sentence that the 7th poster did read the 5th one as one in which the H1B's get killed in the literal sense...



The irony is that it will not the the H1-B's who will be laughing..but the companies.

I've noticed this recurring trend of bringing mangos...H1-B's and the usual call-center jokes into any India related thread.Even if the topic had nothing to do with H1-Bs or even mangos for that matter. I find it quite unprofessional and objectionable. What would the reaction be..say if one were to talk about Guantanamo in a thread related to the funding cuts for the UC's.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

64. I never thought I would see somebody inciting a hate crime on DU

Wow!

[Flaneur]

75. Yes, let's kill the foreign workers!!

Jesus Christ, dude, get a grip. Or join the Teabaggers.

[Vehl]

76. Indeed! some posts on DU make me wonder about the mentality of those who post em...

I had to double check if the url was DU or something else.

[mule_train]

8. it's 85,000 + exceptions

another 20,000 for 'masters only' (which is meaningless, since 1 in 4 IT job apps will be masters degree, at least), plus all non profit research and education jobs excepted, even if deployed by a for profit body shop

then there's the unlimited L1 visas, the F1-OPT training (about 23,000) which Obama just defended, and the TN-status (as many as 40,000 per year)

65,000 figure is alwasy a hard core low ball number

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

29. more Americans have NAFTA work visas than Canadians or Mexicans

TN status is hardly a travesty,

[Romulox]

59. America has 10 times the population of Canada, so this isn't a useful comparison.

If the American work visas to Canada outnumber those from Canada to the US by a margin of 10 to 1, you'd have a point. But my suspicion is that they do not. Not by a long shot. :hi:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

62. If you want to talk magnitude...

There would have to be about 7,000,000 Canadians working in the US to match the impact of Americans on the Canadian workforce - what if any country has 7,000,000 citizens working in the US on any class of visa?

In Calgary, where I am working we are 10% of the population, in Vancouver we are almost 20%

Americans can work abroad with ease, why shouldn't our door be open too?

[Romulox]

65. No, I don't. YOU were comparing the number of visas issued to work in the other country

I have no idea how one measures "magnitude" or "impact" of various workers, (or why the subject has so quickly changed).

I'd prefer to deal with the actual number of visas issued, which, as I've said, would have to be 10 times greater in the favor of American workers to be proportional to our countries' respective populations. That's obviously not the case, hence the shift in the conversation...

[Psephos]

10. B.F.D. That's less than 1% of the number of people who have lost jobs since last year.

The entire year's quota of H1-Bs equals about a five-day supply of newly-unemployed people at current rates, which means we still have to deal with > 99% of the rest. It's not a one-on-one swap, either. The people losing jobs are not at all likely to be candidates for a potential H1-B position.

It's a hassle to hire and administer H1-Bs. By law, the job description for a potential H1-B is extremely narrow. Also by law, the jobs are all highly technical. The number of citizens who could have fit an offered position is usually low or zero. Not always, of course, but way more than the non-economists think.

Not many ask what economic benefit accrues when a company can fill a key position and thereby maintain or strengthen current business, and/or keep other (US citizen) workers employed.

Emotion is a poor substitute for cost/benefit analysis. I would be interested to see some hard data. I don't mind being shown I'm wrong, but that takes actual evidence.

[thunder rising]

11. There are more than 6M in the US. The entire ladder has been cut out for Americans. Get a clue

[thunder rising]

12. Here is a link to one site that I've followed for years

http://www.zazona.com/

[OhioChick]

18. Thanks for posting. n/t

[Psephos]

26. I appreciate the site, and looked it over. It is, however, an advocacy site.

Which means by definition it does not provide information or arguments contrary to its beliefs.

That's not a great way to reach a balanced and accurate decision.

[No Elephants]

34. Most sites are advocacy sites, overtly or covertly. That's why we post links from sites that

cite facts from sites that have the opposing position. From the marketplace of opposing ideas, we form our own conclusions (which almost always have more to do with our own biases than with websites, anyway). If a site actual facts, instead of lies or slanting, I consider myself blessed by it. I'd feel fine citing Media Matters any day, though I've never seen it point out when a media outlet unfairly characterizes a Republican.

In any event, I don't see a lot of balance in most posts here. Some posts are from those who post invariably or almost invariably to the right of every issue. Others are from those who post invariably or almost invariably to the left of every issue. The rest are the posts of those who consistently support Obama, irrespective of whether his stance is right or left of an issue.

None of the three groups of posters exhibits much, if any, balance.

[Psephos]

48. I agree with your observations

I was pointing out that the site the poster had referred me to provided good info, but incomplete info, and by implication, more was needed.

For example, look at the real-life perspectives provided by Sen. Walter Sobchak downthread. Clearly, there are complexities in this issue that deserve discussion.

If I could, I would re-word my reply to say that if that site were the sole source of info the poster was using, then s/he would be using a selected group of facts to support an already-existing belief, rather than use a heterogeneous set of facts to derive a position. More info from a variety of perspectives is generally better than less.


The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held,
but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically,
they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence
may at any moment lead to their abandonment.
- Bertrand Russell

[primavera]

44. Well, that explains a lot

Hang out at ILoveHitler.com much as well?

[treestar]

19. The way I understand it they have to be professionals and be

paid the prevailing wage.

So I'm sure the out of work constructions workers would be so happy if these people didn't come. They can't take the jobs, and now they won't have to do any construction work on their houses.

Unemployment for professionals is 5.2%! constructions workers is 17%!

[Psephos]

23. It is useless to attempt to reason someone out of what s/he was never reasoned into.

Jonathan Swift said that.

Thank you for trying to prove him wrong. So far, in more than two centuries, no one has yet succeeded.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

21. Yeah! Fuck immigrants! Where's my goddamn pitchfork? n/t

[No Elephants]

38. Probably right where you last left it.

;-)

[lumberjack_jeff]

43. Stolen. Do a better job looking out for your stuff. n/t

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[murdoch]

71. You like people working here without the right to vote

or a lot of other rights. You like this visa. Great for you, so do Microsoft, Intel and the other H1-B slave factories. Real progressive of you.

[lumberjack_jeff]

42. +3 Especially because OF THE ALL CAPS. n/t

[MisterP]

4. don't think it's politics--America's just going to the dogs

how many people go to, say, Chad, Turkmenistan, or Haiti for "growth-opportunity" tech jobs?...

[krabigirl]

56. Yep.

[blue97keet]

6. OK so just hire citizens.

[No Elephants]

36. You expect employers to be able to find the "best person" in an employment pool of only a couple of

hundred million folks?

[w4rma]

9. This is NEW applications. The ones from the previous years are still in effect.

This is BS that Congress is letting this happen with unemployment at an all time high.

[harry_pothead]

13. Good. The number should be zero.

[greymattermom]

14. not so simple

I've had a job open for 3 months now. The only American applicant turned down my offer. Since it's funded by stimulus money, I haven't been able to hire anyone.

[Endangered Specie]

15. keep looking, try monster, indeed, etc...

[Psephos]

24. GMM is not trying to hire someone for the job-seeker's benefit, but for her company's

Which cuts to the heart of this issue. How can GMM take care of business if she can't take care of business?

The H1-B program and others are intended to help companies fill positions they find it hard or impossible to fill otherwise. So that they can strengthen and grow their businesses, which is how a company expands. An expanding company hires more people, not just specialized technical workers in H1-B categories. That is where real (not make-work) jobs come from.

You want more jobs for Americans? Or do you want to hamstring companies to prove a political point?

There are abuses in every program, and H1-B has some. On the whole, though, the program spins off more US jobs than it costs.

Most of those H1-Bs are also not going to stick around to collect SS and MC in their golden years.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

28. the rhetoric irritates the hell out of me,

Above all else, the discussion is too IT centric - not all H1B's are computer guys!

The company I work for has a significant number of H1B's (none in IT) and I can justify every single one of them, our business is international in nature and requires international people. All positions are advertised in the United States and pretty much the only replies we get are either from professors looking for jobs for their graduating foreign students and long naturalized immigrants who are decades removed from their profession at home. We also hear from the odd journalist which is always a hoot. Okay Ms. Action News... if your qualified you won't mind doing the interview in Arabic!

And above all else, there are more Americans working for us overseas than foreigners working for us in the United States. I'm one of them, should my blood be spilled in the streets of Calgary?

The issue is visa fraud, the class of visa most abused is the K-1 - but you don't hear anybody screaming about that, I doubt many people even know what a K-1 is unless their spouse happened to be issued one. Then there is the L-1 work visa, which is uncapped and subject to rampant abuse and nobody is talking about that either.

[Psephos]

30. A thoughtful post, and in the last paragraph you identify what actually deserves scrutiny and fixing

Your point that the number of US citizens working overseas exceeds the number of foreign citizens working here is alone enough to send critics scrambling.

As you say, the abuses are more concentrated in other visa classes. Elmer Gantry picked his issues by the size of the soapbox bundled with it. Some things don't change.

I would like to see the problems with the various types of work visas (including H1-B) fixed, and the program judged by its net contribution to the US economy (and by extension, US job creation).

Good post. You seem to have a habit of doing that.

[amandabeech]

73. Try advertising in areas where there is high unemployment.

I just worked a project with many people who moved for a chance to work, and these are professionals.

Detroit area, Grand Rapids, MI, area, Cleveland, Columbus, Milwaukee, Buffalo, Rochester, NY, Utica.

There. I've done some work for you.

[w4rma]

17. Try offering a competitive salary, rather than whatever you are currently offering. (nt)

[treestar]

20. You mean to tell me that an unemployed person will hold out for

a higher salary in this market?

[w4rma]

22. No, they are probably finding less skilled/more flexible jobs at whatever pay is being offered. (nt)

[treestar]

25. In this bad market, they are letting their resumes reflect a lower skilled

job when they could take a higher skilled one?

[w4rma]

27. If another job gives more flexibility and time to persue self-employment opportunities

or less of a commute (which saves both money and time.)

I think it's poor judgment to work a highly skilled position at low pay since it lowers the rate of pay for all jobs of that skill level. I'd only take a low paying, but high skilled position, as a stepping point towards proving myself worthy of a competitive salary in the near future.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

31. and in a country where people are trambled to death for a cheap TV...

you actually think any tangible number of people are declining employment in their chosen field to preserve the salaries of others?

I walked away from my career once out of sheer burnout and misery, re-entering after several years after going broke at retail, non-profits and working for a museum subject to weekly funding cuts was damn near impossible.

[w4rma]

32. Yup. Just move on over to the financial industry where all the money has been going. (Still is.)

With highly skilled people, they have the intelligence to be able to handle a move to the financial industry rather than trying to pay off college loans while dealing with bosses that want a sweet deal out of them in the field they'd rather be working in. Noone likes to be ripped off.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

33. Unless your name is Chet Vanburan III they aren't hiring

[No Elephants]

41. Yes, but you did walk away. .Getting burned out for a low salary and lousy benefis is even dumber

than risking your health for a high salary and great benefits.

BTW, some actually do govern their lives by how they benefit or harm others. People who refuse to cross picket lines, for example.

[No Elephants]

40. In this economy, something like that is very easily explained, more easily than "I was unemployed

so long because some work is just beneath me."

[treestar]

61. But in this scenario you could have the higher rated job

And because the salary is allegedly not enough, decide to take a lower end job (with presumably lower pay) as more "flexible."

Seeing the sky is falling posts here, one thinks that no one would do that. The person in the more flexible job is waiting for a better offer? How can that be if the economic news is so dire?

[No Elephants]

39. 10% of Americans who want to work are out of work--and that is what the government admits to.

In some areas, even the official figure is much higher. If I were in your shoes, I'd look inward.

[No Elephants]

35. People are not lining up for our economic opportunities or our lofty ideals the way they used to?

[mule_train]

45. Obama's 'recovery' plan->Trillion for bankers, business as usual 'guest' workers

folks, mark what you've seen here - in what's called a 'depression' they WONT cut back on guest workers (a program to 'accomodate fast growth')

and the democrats have the white house, the senate and the house

there is NO circumstance under which they will lower the incredibly high numbers - NONE!!!

It's a depression, trillions are given for recovery, and the democrats control all 3 places

what's the excuse now?!?!?!

[SammyWinstonJack]

72. 'what's the excuse now? Can't wait to hear.

:evilgrin:

[Romulox]

47. If driving a Hyundai is OK, then hiring a Korean IT worker should be fine too....

Anything else is just self-serving hypocrisy. :hi:

[mule_train]

49. just curious, but why do you have it in for IT workers?

we've already had the back an forth, that I've NEVER owned a foreign car

yet, you seem hell bent on everyone getting the same size shaft as auto workers

you have the right to not give a damn about what happens to IT workers, but if you cheer their destruction you're no better than the worst of republicans

that's your right, but if your political goal is more pain for the rest of american workers, may i suggest you're in the wrong party?

[Romulox]

50. I don't. I just think there should be one rule for everybody.

I don't agree with protecting IT jobs while letting everyone else sink or swim. Nor have I seen much of any support for blue collar workers from the sort who habitually post to H1B threads.

"we've already had the back an forth, that I've NEVER owned a foreign car"

OK. But most automobiles sold in America are foreign marques. Moreover, there is a government policy of "free trade" with regard to these items.

"yet, you seem hell bent on everyone getting the same size shaft as auto workers"

If America isn't about fairness, then what is it about?

"that's your right, but if your political goal is more pain for the rest of american workers, may i suggest you're in the wrong party?"

Umm, don't look now, but "free trade" with authoritarian regimes is a signature issue of the Democratic Party. :hi:

[mule_train]

51. "Nor have I seen much of any support for blue collar workers from the sort who habitually post to H1

" H1B threads"

we dont cheer their destruction

and that's more than i can say for you

(and if you look at the electrolux plant thread, you see me all over it)

[Romulox]

52. No, I'm not cheering anybody's destruction. Just asking for one rule for both blue and white collar

workers.

That this is so threatening to so many is telling in itself.

"we dont cheer their destruction

and that's more than i can say for you"

That's really unfair. I'm not cheering for anybody's destruction. But I'm also done with one way "solidarity", too. :shrug:

[mule_train]

53. "I'm not cheering for anybody's destruction" --> could have fooled me

"That's really unfair. I'm not cheering for anybody's destruction. But I'm also done with one way "solidarity", too"

you mean like where I decry the policies that cause the electrolux plan workers to lose their jobs, and you come in to the IT threads and say IT workers should lose their jobs to korean h-1bs?

that the 'one-way' solidarity you're talking about?

I'll be blunt - you're bitter, and you're more interested in poeple you dont think did enough getting the shaft (IT workers have been getting a hard shaft for 8 years), than you are about solving the overall problem

i think you'd accept 'one rule' where everyone gets the shaft in a heartbeat

as an it worker i dont wish for others who havent gotten the same treatment IT got, because then there are just fewer places to run

[Romulox]

54. So...it's more important to ferrett out my hidden motives than to deal with my basic argument?

That's why these discussion don't go anywhere.

"you mean like where I decry the policies that cause the electrolux plan workers to lose their jobs, and you come in to the IT threads and say IT workers shou;d lose their jobs to korean h-1bs?"

I didn't say anybody "should" lose their job; I said that if we as a society promote "competition" and "free trade" as the only possible vehicles to economic advancement, then this same ideology needs to be applied to IT jobs, as well.

You don't like that idea, of course, simply because you don't want the same "deal" that has been handed to blue collar workers. In that case, the principled thing to do would be to work to change the overall system, rather than beg for an exception for your particular industry. Unfortunately, I haven't seen much interest in this endeavor.=

[mule_train]

55. i've dealt with you 'basic argument' over and over again, and bitten my tongue on your motives for a

long time. but frankly, i've had enough

"I said that if we as a society promote "competition" and "free trade" as the only possible vehicles to economic advancement, then this same ideology needs to be applied to IT jobs, as well.
"

I'VE FOUGHT THIS SINCE 1992 ON EACH AND EVERY ISSUE!!!!

"
You don't like that idea, of course, simply because you don't want the same "deal" that has been handed to blue collar workers. In that case, the principled thing to do would be to work to change the overall system, rather than beg for an exception for your particular industry. Unfortunately, I haven't seen much interest in this endeavor.=
"

no matter how much evidence i present, you just keep arguing in circles and keep making the same false accusations

I have ALWAYS understood that ANYONE losing a job presents a threat to my own job security, I worked IT in maufacturing

[Romulox]

57. That's why this discussion stalls when it is focused on individuals' motives

"but frankly, i've had enough"

Had enough of *what*? Me expressing my opinion respectfully? :shrug:

"I'VE FOUGHT THIS SINCE 1992 ON EACH AND EVERY ISSUE!!!!"

Me too. We lost. The takeaway from this is not that we need to renew the fight, but only as to IT workers...

[mule_train]

58. you are impossibe - on ignore nt

[Romulox]

60. It's a shame you feel the need to insult instead of discuss this matter.

I've been nothing but responsive and respectful to you.

I think it may be useful for you to have a scapegoat.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

63. Driving a Hyundai is just smart

I love my Accent and wish I bought a Sonata or Genesis instead of my Honda Accord.

[Romulox]

66. Hiring a foreigner at a lower wage is often similarly smart.

I was comparing the two actions, not contrasting them. :hi:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

67. an American worker is rarely inferior - an American car is occasionally acceptable

[mule_train]

68. i've found American cars i liked in style, price and quality all my life

it's all i've ever driven

and i've never considered it to be a compromise

[Romulox]

69. That's a ridiculous argument. EVERY foreign brain surgeon is superior to me, for example.

Just a bizarre argument: "an American worker is rarely inferior..."

[AzDar]

74. America first! Near or full employment for OUR citizens before any H-1Bs are issued.

Seems rather simple to this Protectionist...:shrug: