Thousands march in Paris for women.(support headscarve ban)

[JoFerret]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=518&ncid=732&e=3&u=/ap/20040306/ap_on_re_eu/france_women_s_march

<<Thousands of women marched through Paris on Saturday to press for equal rights for women and show support for a law to ban Islamic head scarves in public schools.


Some carried pink signs, and one held a replica of a gallows with dolls in the style of Barbie dangling from ropes. One sign read, "Neither for Sale nor for the Taking." >>

[republicansareevil]

1. biased headline

Marching to support a law that violates personal religious freedom is somehow "marching for women"?

:wtf:

[Paschall]

2. Well, as French philospher Elisabeth Badinter says...

...every progressive step for women's rights has been made over the backs of religious authority.

By the way, that banner nicely translated as "Neither for sale nor for the taking" is probably actually the name of the organization created last year by a woman of North African origin, Fadela Amara. The group organized women and girls in France's disadvantaged--and largely immigrant--suburbs for a march across France to protest violence against women and the killing of Sohane Benziane described in the article. The organization is actually called "Ni putes ni soumises." Translate it for yourself.

http://www.niputesnisoumises.com/html

"Equality between men and women cannot advance if secularism regresses."

ON EDIT: The march was not specifically in support of the headscarf ban--it is International Women's Day weekend in case you hadn't noticed.



The banner reads: Secularism - Equality - Coeducation (Mixité)

[JoFerret]

3. I disagree

the headline reports the march accurately - at least as far as i can tell of the purpose of these protesters. These women are supporting the ban. They see the religious prejudice against women represented by the wearing of scarves, veils and etc and misogynist at heart. Which of course it it. This covering nonsense comes from hatred and fear of women. Presumably these marchers want to preserve a secular France as well as equal rights for women. Religious freedom is one thing. State support for religious oppression of women is quite another.

[BonjourUSA]

4. JUST ONE OR TWO HUNDRED FOR THE SCARF!!!

And hardely managed by the islamists !!!!!!!!!!!!!

A SHAME !!!

My two daugthers was in the march for women rights. They saw this little group surrounded by these guys... Awful. She came home absolutely confused.

[peacetalksforall]

5. I can't help feeling this interpretation is wrong...

I can't believe women in France would support a ban of scarves = I would think they would support the right of these women to wear a scarf. I'm really surprised. Is this being reported correctly?

[BonjourUSA]

6. The French women support the ban of scarves

This march was for the women rights. Nobody here, except some religious (a very little % of the French population, muslims include), think the scarf is a symbol of freedom.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

8. Do you believe then...

...that the majority should be allowed to trample the rights of a minority?

[Xithras]

21. Do YOU believe....

That the majority should stand by and do nothing while a minority abuses, represses, and treats half of its population like second class citizens? Should the majority stand by and watch while that minority tortures and murders its own daughters because their "honor" is disparaged? The problem with the hijab isn't the hijab, it's the stereotypes it represents...that women must be covered because they cannot be trusted, that women are property of their men, and that women are subservient.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

35. THAT'S THE POINT!

I've seen people criticize the hijab because they see it as an attempt to restrict the freedom of women in order to control the behavior of men (women must be covered because otherwise men will attack them), but that is not the only reason (or even the primary reason) for the hijab. Do Jewish men wear yarmulkes only to prevent Jewish women from raping them?

Muslim women wear the hijab out of a sense of modesty and the idea that it is the proper thing to do. Almost all cultures have standards of modesty and decency even if these standards differ from place to place. American women cover certain parts of their body because we choose to, because it's what we're used to. There are certain types of clothing I would never wear because it would make me uncomfortable, not because I fear it would lead men to attack me.

You are suggesting that France handle the very real problem of domestic abuse by forcing students to remove their hijabs even if some do not want to. In other words, YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO CONTROL THE BEHAVIOR OF MEN BY RESTRICTING THE FREEDOM OF WOMEN - or in this case girls since we are talking about school-age kids.

Can't you see how wrong that it? There are far better ways of dealing with domestic abuse.

[BonjourUSA]

37. You make a mistake

read my post :

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=404491&mesg_id=405840&page=

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

39. If you want to see ugliness, you should hold a mirror to your own post.

You accuse me of using Nazi propoganda techniques but don't bother to elaborate. You accuse me of being "anti-secularism" and "anti-democracy" even though my viewpoint is supported by Human Rights Watch and, if you want to draw comparisons to the U.S., by the ACLU and the Supreme Court (and I don't mean the Felonious Five).

You are correct that this situation involves Church/State separation issues. In this case it is the French government that is violating that separation by infringing on religious freedom. I am a female, feminist, liberal Democrat who is not particularly religious myself. I care about this issue because I care about human rights.

This law was passed for the same reason the Patriot Act was passed in this country - the right-wingers catered to the worst ugliness in the general population and the liberals caved in because they were afraid of the backlash if they stood up for what was right. Only the Communist Party in France had the guts to stand up against this xenophobic law. And if you read what the French officials themselves said about the reason for passing this law, you will see that I am right.

[Isere]

18. The roots of secularism in France are very strong

Here's a short article for some background:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3325285.stm

"France is not the only Western country to insist on the separation of church and state - but it does so more militantly than any other.

Secularism is the closest thing the French have to a state religion. It underpinned the French Revolution and has been a basic tenet of the country's progressive thought since the 18th Century.


To this day, anything that smacks of official recognition of a religion - such as allowing Islamic headscarves in schools - is anathema to many French people. ......"

[Just Me]

7. Unification,...cannot be a bad thing,...

Hey,...it is a spiritual secular thing. If you cannot handle that,...get an identity that is not dependent upon something outside yourself.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

9. Are you saying that Muslims who object to the ban...

...should give up their religion?

[BonjourUSA]

10. Nobody asks to Muslims, Jews, Cathos or else to give up their religion...

But to respect the public school area like a zone out of all religious belief or religious behavior. That's simple, and this respect exists for a century in France (1905, law about Churches and state separation) and the law just recalls that. We live like that in a total religious peace and we want to go on.

[Muddleoftheroad]

11. Today the schools

Tomorrow the workplaces. Next day the streets.

You have to fight invasions of rights the FIRST day, not the last.

I've said it before. F--- France and their anti-religious bigotry.

[BonjourUSA]

12. Yes, we're awful freedom killers. Everybody knows that !

Did you live in France ?

[Muddleoftheroad]

13. Nope

And sure don't want to with this going on.

Liberte. Egalite. Bigotre.

[Isere]

17. I think you are right to stay away.

Since you have already made up your mind.

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. Gee how surprising

When I see open religious bigotry, it's odd for me to respond.

[Flagg]

14. enjoy

http://www.fuckfrance.com

[republicansareevil]

15. Bonjour, this is a very old tale...

Suppose there is a place that has a somewhat homegenous culture. People get along. Things are going well. Then a new group comes along. They have a different culture, different values. They do not seem to be trying to assimilate into the existing culture. Maybe a few of them even do some bad things, commit some crimes. The people who were there first get nervous. They don't trust these newcomers. They don't understand why they won't assimilate. So they start passing laws to try to force the newcomers to act like everybody else... or to at least stay out of sight.

This is what is happening in France. Human beings don't like change. They don't like having to accomodate to a new culture. But that is how we grow. France must learn how to deal with their Muslim citizens.

You might argue that France was not homogenous even before the Muslim population grew -- that France has many different religions. But apparently none of those religions had the issue of needing to wear an article of clothing for religious purposes everyday. Or if they did, it was a very small minority and nothing that seemed to be a threat to traditional French culture. But now you have a large minority with this religious issues and your solution is to try to force them to betray their religion.

A headscarf is not like a cross. No Christian is required to wear a cross around the neck, but a headscarf is required for females by many interpretations of Islam. Why does France insist on denying them that simple thing? It doesn't hurt anyone else.

[BonjourUSA]

16. Two mistakes

1 - Before this law has been decided two commissions worked.

The first with deputies of all political tendencies, the second with representatives of all religions, of education... They interviewed hundreds of representative people of all the religious and philosophic thoughts. These commisions concluded a law was necessary. The representatives of the French Muslims didn't find in the Koran anything for the wearing of a scarf (they only asked for a little piece of textile, but without very insistence).

2 - The French Muslim are not more religious than other French people.

For recall : between 4% and 5% of all the French population practices a religion - 8% for the French people of arab origin (2 or 3 generations were born in France now) . If they weren't included the number of 4% would be lower -
You're going to be astonished. The French girls of arab origin are more numerous to ask a law to ban the religious symbols than the French girls of other origins. (91% vs 83%. The question was : "Do you believe a law is necessary to ban the religious symbols in the public schools ?). Because they have more and more a strong pressure of their brothers or the guys in their cities for the scarf wearing (they can be treated of whore or they can be beaten). Not for religious reasons but for domination (for example : the girls are better than boys at school. And they escape more and more from the Arab "community" with mix marriages).

Excuse my english ;-)

[bloom]

20. thanks for your perspective

It is an interesting issue.

Muslim women over here seem to be happy to wear their headscarves. Yet there does seem to also be a mentality of subservience...

Should people be free to be "unfree"?

[chimpy the poopthrower]

40. I will respond to both your points, BonjourUSA.

1.

You say that representatives of many religions were consulted before this law was passed. You claim that the French Muslims who were part of this commission determined that there is no requirement in the Koran for a woman to cover her head, and that these French Muslims do not object to the headscarf ban.

You must realize that not all Muslims interpret the Koran in the same way, just as not all Christians interpret the Bible in the same way. Obviously many Muslims feel that a headscarf is required by the Koran. It is certainly a common practice for Muslim women all over the world, including in the U.S. Do you really want a government-appointed commission deciding what the "correct" interpretation of a religious text is? It is possible that the majority of French Muslims have a different outlook than Muslims in other parts of the world. It may even be that the commission was "stacked" with those who held the least orthodox religious beliefs. In any case, what does it matter whether the majority of French citizens or even French Muslims dislike headscarves? This is about protecting the rights of a minority group.

You also say that there was another commission that included representatives of varying political tendencies. You might want to consider that in the U.S. both Democrats and Republicans voted to pass the "Patriot Act," which eroded many of the Constitutional liberties we have had for over 200 years. And both Democrats and Republicans voted for the Iraq War Resolution, which enabled Bush to declare war on Iraq solely at his own discretion and without the approval of Congress. Politicians, sadly, vote whichever way they think the wind is blowing. Throughout history, there have been very few individuals who stood up for their principles in the face of overwhelming public opposition. However, the international organization Human Rights Watch has condemned the French law.

2.

The headscarf can also be thought of as simply a cultural tradition. I don't believe that assimilation means rejecting every value from your old culture. I will give you an example. I know that in some parts of Europe, it is common for some women to go topless on beaches. But, as an American, I am not used to that. If I moved to Europe, even if I lived there for many years, I don't think I would ever be comfortable enough to take my top off in public, even if it was accepted by everyone else around me. Of course, that is my choice. But France is taking away the choice of its students to cover themselves in a way that feels comfortable to them.

I have seen the argument that some Muslim girls are forced to wear the hijab against their will. The argument states that it is better to prohibit the wearing of the hijab in school altogether because then the girls will not be forced to wear it against their will. But this act simply replaces one form of oppression with another. Instead of some girls being forced to wear the hijab against their will, some girls who wish to wear the hijab are prevented from doing so.

If girls and women are being beaten in Muslim communities, that is a serious problem and needs to be treated as a crime: domestic abuse, child abuse, or simply assault, depending on the circumstances. A ban on the hijab will do nothing to curb such violence against women and girls, but it may lead some Muslim families to keep their daughters away from public schools. Then you have just made the assimilation "problem" even worse.

Legally, Muslim women in France can already choose whether or not to wear the hijab, correct? If they feel oppressed within the Muslim community they are free to abandon their culture and move to a non-Muslim neighborhood or community. If they are being prevented through a system of abuse, that is a separate issue which should certainly be addressed. Muslim girls who do not wish to wear the hijab but are "forced to" by their parents are no different from youths anywhere in the world. Parents invariably insist on a more conservative and modest style of dress than kids want to wear. Parents implementing a dress code for their children does not constitute oppression in my opinion. I'd certainly rather have those decisions made my parents than by the government, especially when matters of religious customs are involved.

[philosophie_en_rose]

19. Women deserve choice.

I am against any religion that forces women to conform against their will. However, banning the ability to make a choice is not a stand for freedom.

If I want to wear a scarf, it could be because I choose to wear what I like. It's insulting to suggest that women cannot freely choose to be Muslim.

[mainer]

22. Don't the majority of muslim women support the ban?

I seem to recall reading that a majority of Muslim women in France were in favor of banning the headscarves. The reason for this is that so many of them were FORCED by their fathers to wear the headscarves, or they were TAUNTED on the street by muslim men if they refused to wear them.

So it really did sound like a women's rights issue.

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. Parents OFTEN choose what their children wear

That is nothing new. Nor should the state take away that right.

[mainer]

25. Even when the "child" is seventeen?

Muslim women felt victimized by their own men. They weren't given the right to choose even before the law.

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. As long as they live at home

Parents have a right and obligation to exercise parental control.

[mainer]

32. So a 30-year-old woman

living at home MUST wear a headscarf out in public if her father says so? Wow. I think the cultural gap here is too wide to even discuss this issue any further.

Either you believe muslim men have a right to stomp on women's rights, or you don't. And as a woman, I think that's what this headscarf ban is really all about. A muslim woman's right not to be coerced, bullied, or beaten into how men think women should behave.

[Muddleoftheroad]

33. If you live with your parents

Under their roof, then they set the rules. As an adult, you CHOOSE to remain under their roof and must abide by their decisions. Or you can move out.

Muslim women should have the right to wear or not wear the headscarf. It should not be the choice of the state. Until they are 18, it is the choice of their parents. After that, they choose themselves. However, coercision is not a crime. Many children -- even adult children -- do things they do not wish to satisfy their parents.

[bloom]

27. There are dress codes over here

and parents do not have the "right" to have their children break them.

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. This is not about a dress code

It's about religious freedom. The dress code comment is a smokescreen. Clearly, the French uber state is trying to bully minorities into changing their religious practices.

[bloom]

30. I think it more about labeling oneself as a certain religion

than it is about "practicing" a religion (and also the Muslim men controlling the women).

It is little different to me than gang wear which does the same thing.

[Muddleoftheroad]

31. So you and France get to decide

How I practice my religion now?

[mainer]

26. I do think this is a women's right issue

I had the privilege of a having a long conversation with a woman author from Jordan who wrote a book about the oppression she has suffered. Her book had to do with honor killings -- and because she wrote that book, she must travel everywhere with bodyguards, and is in constant fear for her life because there is a fatwa for her execution. All because she wrote the truth. The stories she tells are hair-raising.

She does not wear a headscarf, and she felt the ONLY way muslim women in France would feel liberated would be to take the choice AWAY FROM THE MEN who force the women to wear the scarves.

You see, currently it is not even a woman's choice. It is a man's choice whether to force women to wear the scarves.

[Flagg]

34. great post

thanx mainer

[chimpy the poopthrower]

36. See my post #35 above.