Venezuela plans law to ban violent videogames

[Crooked Moon]

Source: (Reuters)

CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuelan lawmakers are moving to outlaw the sale of violent videogames and toys in an attempt to fight rampant crime in the country.

A bill to ban sales of violent games has passed its first hurdle in the National Assembly, the legislative chamber said in a statement issued on Wednesday.

Dozens of people are murdered every week in the capital Caracas, one of Latin America's most dangerous cities, sometimes for as little as a pair of shoes or a mobile phone.



Read more: http://in.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idINTRE57P55R20090826

---

rampant violence is devastating, but i fail to see how restricting personal freedoms to consume media is going to help.

[MellowDem]

1. Is Chavez part of the Council of Conservative Citizens now?

Weird how violence is running rampant when poverty is supposedly being diminished by Chavez. Why is the homicide rate still climbing? One thing is for sure, the US has to deal with this as well and the answer is NOT violent video games, that's just a great excuse to avoid all the serious issues that lead to increases in crime, issues that Chavez is obviously not addressing.

[EFerrari]

10. Um, CHAVEZ didn't write this article which goes into the

Horrible Things Chavez Is Going To Do round file like all the other bogus predictions designed to get a reaction.

[MellowDem]

15. Like shutting down golf courses?

I really don't think this is all that horrible as much as just silly and stupid (and designed to deflect criticism away from Chavez). But maybe you're right, maybe Chavez personally disagrees with this and LOVES playing violent video games! Some GTA perhaps?

[Bacchus39]

16. yep, silly and stupid. n/t

s

[EFerrari]

107. Yeah, like the nonstory about golf courses. Like the story

about a draconian media law which turned out to be wrong. Like the story about his "supporters" attacking a teevee station which also turned out to be wrong. There's at least one of these a week.

[Bacchus39]

130. except the media law is draconian and Chavez supporters did attack Globovision

anything other truths you want to deny??

[SOS]

143. These Venezuela threads are becoming ludicrous

Only Venezuela does horrific things like suggesting closing one golf course or proposing a ban on violent video games.

When these countries banned games for content I don't recall any outraged threads:

Australia
Brazil
Germany
Ireland
Japan
Mexico
New Zealand
Saudi Arabia
Singapore
South Korea
Thailand
United Kingdom

Apparently, when a US ally bans games for content, it's OK.

[EFerrari]

144. Once Obama got into office and the Republicans started using

the same PR playbook against him that they use against Chavez, it did get manifestly silly ---> Outrageous proposition taken as fact ----> presented out of context ----> dire prediction. That's how we wind up with death panels and socialism and free abortions for illegal aliens. :crazy:

[SOS]

147. Meanwhile...

Two nations, which receive the red carpet treatment in Washington, are listed in the 2007 Freedom House report entitled "The Worst of the Worst".
Saudia Arabia and Equatorial Guinea are listed as two of the the most brutal, repressive regimes on earth.
But since US oil companies make money there, it's no problem.

Where are the reports in the US media on the Equatorial Guinea Exxon oil operation and the outrageous torture and murder of all political dissidents?
Where are the front page stories on "witches" being publicly decapitated in Riyadh?
There are none, because the AP and the NYT are too busy reporting on the suggested closure of one Venezuelan golf course (which is much more important!)
Here's a photo of the vicious butcher of Equatorial Guinea, being welcomed to Washington by another human rights devotee:

[Arctic Dave]

2. Wow. A few dozen people are murdered a week, they dont know jack about violence.

When they start getting that in a weekend then that'll be a violent city. As for video games being outlawed, I guess if you do it by the book then who cares. It's their country and if their political parties want to ban a game then, oh well.

[Crooked Moon]

5. does your attitude extend to

other media and art forms?

[Arctic Dave]

8. If they want ban it then let them. It's not my country.

But maybe I have skewed opinion because I don't play video games violent or not. They seem to be a huge waste of time.

[bemildred]

3. As long as they don't restrict sexual content, I'm OK with it. nt

[Crooked Moon]

6. does the excuse/rationale even matter

when the sum total of actions is increasingly indicating a desire to restrict the people's access to culture, pop or otherwise?

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

CARACAS: In bookstores all over Venezuela the bookshelves are emptying. Readers’ hunger for new and classic titles is as strong as it ever was, but a policy change that the government made over a year ago is gradually choking off the flow of imported books, which make up 80% of the market in Venezuela, resulting, naturally, in fewer and fewer books to sell.

It seemed like a minor bureaucratic change at the time: in March 2008, the government led by president Hugo Chávez downgraded the import status of books. Once listed as “essential goods”, all imported books would now require government certification, either demonstrating they were not produced domestically, or else not produced domestically in sufficient numbers. In practice, this means that for all titles they want to import, publishers or distributors have to submit an application describing the books in question and request that a share of foreign currency be allocated for their import. (In Venezuela, the government regulates the use of foreign currency for imports.) These applications are then reviewed by a government bureaucrat, who has the power to decide how many copies will be imported.

The decisions the government has made over the year that the law has been in force seems somewhat arbitrary. For example, the international bestseller The Secret could reasonably be expected to sell ten thousand copies or more, yet only several hundred were approved. What’s more, publishers must then wait six months to reapply to import additional copies — by which time demand may have dropped.

The result of this policy has been a catastrophic shortage of books. In an open letter, Yolanda de Fernández, president of the Venezuelan Chamber of Books, stated “this measure puts at risk more than 400 small and medium-sized companies in Venezuela’s book sector, which together employ, directly and indirectly, around 35,000 workers.”

http://publishingperspectives.com/?p=4555

[bemildred]

39. Why are you asking me?

Excuse for what anyway?

[Crooked Moon]

50. you seem to be willing

to give to some degree on freedom of expression; just wondering where the line is.

[bemildred]

57. I don't think video games have doodle to do with freedom of expression.

And yes, I play a lot of video games, and I read a lot of books too.

But you asked whether the excuse rationale/mattered, and I asked excuse for what? I can now infer that you meant excuse/rationale for restricting freedom of expression; so then I have explained that that does not apply to video games, in my view, which are generally just mindless entertainment.

But it's a touchy subject, any kind of censorship. Still, when it comes to mindless graphic violence in video games, I don't really give a shit if they censor it.

[Odin2005]

96. video game design is just as much an art as movies, literature, and painting.

A lot of the most creative classical music now days is from RPGs

[bemildred]

101. Well, I would not equate those all as art, but certainly there is art in video games.

My brother really likes old comics, has a big valuable collection. And I would get annoyed at attempts to censor comics. I have lots of video games, some much better than others, and the art is not just in the images either.

The issue that bothers me here is that I do think that society has a legitimate interest in not promoting violence, in maintaining social order, don't yell fire in a crowded theater is the classic example. I don't like really censorship at all, but it upsets me a lot less when it is a matter of graphic violence presented as entertainment. Cartoon violence concerns me less than realistic stuff too. I don't claim to know where we ought to draw the line on that, but I think it's a legitimate concern.

[merwin]

122. Cartoon violence is not realistic?

It's not like kids have access to meat cleavers, knives, rat traps, toasters (thrown inro bathtubs), electrical sockets, etc that is in a single episode of Tom and Jerry. Plasma weapons and aliens are far easier to come by.

Worse yet, in cartoons the characters do not die after getting mamed and beaten. At least in video games you are taught that guns kill people.

I would propose that from the perspective of reproducable violence, cartoon violence on TV is far far worse... but for some reason we consider those to be ok for children... my guess on that is because it is the media that the parents are comfortable with from their childhood.

Now here is an idea. Why not talk to your teenager and see if they know the difference between video game violence and real life violence. Quit bitching about fake violence an start participating in your kid's life. If parents make decisions that shelter their young teens from real life (yes, violence happens in real life) they end up out of touch and unable to actually talk about things like this.

And for those who complain that you can't control what your child does at a friend's house, that is bullshit. You call the parents and let them know you don't want your child playing that kind of game, and you teach your kid the ability to make good decisions through discussions... Not a lecture but a one-on-one conversation aout these differences and the real-world reasons you dont want him to play those games. Works much better than sheltering them through censorship. Most of the young kids know early on that they are not allowed to watch pg13 movies and relay this info to the parents. Same goes with video games.

[bemildred]

134. Well, it's less realistic than "realistic violence" don't you think?

That's why it's called "cartoon violence" instead of "realistic violence". Those aren't terms I invented.

[merwin]

179. so if the characters are animated, it is ok

and if they are computer generated, it is not. Gotcha

[bemildred]

181. No, that's not really it. nt

[Posteritatis]

194. "I really don't like censorship at all, but..."

Always followed by a situation in which someone really likes censorship.

[bemildred]

197. Well, we do have censorship already, it's not a cut and dried issue.

There are many restraints on our right to say anything we feel like, the question is where you draw the line, and it has always been that way.

(Examples: Try making bomb threats in the security line at the airport. Try indulging your passion for kiddie porn. Try calling a cop a racist on your front porch. Try being a CIA whistle blower. Try publishing nuclear "secrets". Try making jokes about Obama hunting tags. Violent video games are small potatoes, really.)

[Posteritatis]

198. Small potatoes, thin end of the wedge, same difference as far as I'm concerned

Also, most of those actually harm something (and a few of them are not legislatively banned anyway). Violent video games only really damage the sensitivities of omg-kids-these-days adults, not that that repeatedly-demonstrated fact will ever change the minds of ban-happy people everywhere.

The fact that you don't mind if something gets banned just because you don't care about the issue doesn't mean it's a good thing.

[bemildred]

199. Indeed, and you are most welcome to have your own opinion.

Only another post or two and we will have 200 posts about this trivia because it's about Venezuela and Chavez the dictator.

[merwin]

205. WTF!? Have you read any of the posts?

Most of them have nothing to do with Chavez. The video game anti-violence club came in and it has turned into a flame-fest over whether violence in video games is bad.

[bemildred]

208. Right, nothing to do with Chavez.

207 posts and climbing.

[merwin]

204. Amen!

Couldn't have said it better myself

[merwin]

203. If you make a bomb threat, you are directly

putting others in danger of immediate harm. That is not censorship, that is the response to a death threat.

No compoarison at all to censorship of media.

[bemildred]

210. I didn't say it was a bad idea.

I said the argument is about where you draw the line.

There were people on this thread saying that all censorship is bad. I was pointing out that there is lots of justified censorship. You can't just say that all restraint of speech is bad.

[provis99]

124. yeah, just like jerking off to porn is art.

Whatever, artsy-fartsy boy.

[Odin2005]

131. Your cluelessness is showing.

[merwin]

207. Only if the jerking off to it was filmed.

Pornography is as much an art as any other genre of media.

Just because you don't morally agree with it for some reason doesn't mean that it is not an artform.

People make crappy B horror movies also, does that disqualify it from being an artform?

Fact is, there are some pornography directors who take it seriously.

[Forkboy]

218. Try not being an ignorant moran.

You might like it.

[merwin]

178. One of the members of The Tea Party,

a famous canadian band that is one of the most talented i have heard did the souindtrack for Prince Of Persia... I downloaded that soundtrack and love it.

[merwin]

202. And the right wing will say that liberal radio

is mindless entertainment and wouldn't care if it was censored.

[dipsydoodle]

121. Whatever

Just deal with it.

If you had a half clue you'd know that the main reason for the book shortage is increased literacy due to Hugo's policies.

[bemildred]

133. LOL. Now you've done it.

:thumbsup:

[crazyjoe]

189. HAHAHA, thanks, I needed a good laugh!!

[ZombieHorde]

4. I just picked up Dead Space for the PS3 at target for $15.

Extremely violent, extremely bloody, extremely fun. I highly suggest Dead Space to all who love awesome.

[raystorm7]

7. I highly suggest Left4Dead. I love zombie movies and games especially :)

[Occulus]

18. Wait till you get to the end of Chapter Six.

I have a save game right there, just for its total awesomeness.

Make a habit of getting downright miserly with your ammo though, and I hope you're playing on Hard, because the game is just.. different. Enemies behave differently; there was a comment at release time to the effect that Hard Mode was the dame "as intended".

Also, though I don't know if it applies to PS3 owners, on the PC you shouldn't use "continue game", as it automagically sets the difficulty to Medium. Load a saved game instead.

[The Straight Story]

9. I thought it was a paradise of happiness and joy and utopian love there under his rule

You must be mistaken, there are no crimes there. Only happy dancing centaurs and fairies :)

[EFerrari]

11. No, violent crime is a problem in Venezuela and one that

the government hasn't had much luck in solving.

[SKKY]

20. Judging by some of the "Chavezistas" here on DU...

...you would certainly think that.

[EFerrari]

30. The word is Chavistas.

[Violet_Crumble]

56. I've never seen anyone on DU claim there's no crime in Venezuela...

And I doubt anyone's going to provide me with any links to show that it's something that happens at all, let alone regularly, so I'll put that particular claim in the Bullshit Basket...

[Mika]

36. Wrong. Again. But here's your consolation prize instead of blud & gutz vid games ..

All you need is your imagination (and you do have a vivid one :) ) ..

---

[WriteDown]

40. Centaurs are not nearly as friendly as one might think. nt

[Igel]

136. Apparently not.

From what I can see, the centaurs are dancing on the faeries. That's about the only way to keep the faeries from shoving their wands up the centaurs', er, noses.

[Pavulon]

12. Ruh Ro, that is look good feel good bullshit

I wonder why they are doing that? Maybe a real fix is beyond the grasp of the bolivar master hugo.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. I'm pretty sure some games are banned here. Not sure that it's restricted my personal freedom...

Or is that only an issue because yr talking about Venezuela?

[davepc]

23. Really? what games are banned by the goverment here in the USA? examples please.

[Violet_Crumble]

38. I'm not talking about the US. I'm talking about here in Australia n/t

[ronnie624]

104. There are all sorts of bans on content in U.S. media.

There's nothing special about video games, in my opinion. They're just another medium for information.

[merwin]

123. There are bans on US media? wtf.

There are age restrictions on some things, but if you wanted publish a magazine about having sex with farm animals, nobody from our govtis going to stop you. In fact, there are probably several already in print

[ronnie624]

135. I wonder what would happen

if CBS featured a program about sex with farm animals, including graphic images, during prime time.

[Moochy]

137. They do have a show like that

It's called Big Brother.

[ronnie624]

139. Lol. n/t

[merwin]

170. I would watch that!

It would be fun to see how they presented it... documentary about southern backwoods hicks?

[Sgent]

191. If CBS

wanted to give up public airways and broadcast only on cable, they would have no problems.

If HBO decided to run the same thing, no one would stop them.

[chrisa]

174. nm

[Posteritatis]

196. Government censorship is an intrinsic restriction on personal freedom

Period.

Saying otherwise is just ridiculous.

[Freddie Stubbs]

14. ¿Jose Lieberhombre?

;)

[Oregone]

17. Who cares?

Aren't we all outraged at the outrage by now? In a country like the USA where there is gun violence all around, drunk driving accidents nightly, and 1 in 3 girls molested by adulthood, do we really have the energy to worry about Venezuela's ills?

[JeanGrey]

19. Geez, what is up with this guy?

[Tempest]

21. What guy?

Read the article again.

It's the NATIONAL ASSEMBLY that is pushing for the bill.

[JeanGrey]

125. Oh I didn't know the national assembly ran the country

without Chavez.

[onehandle]

22. Liberal paradise, my ass.

They are so quick to shut down "incorrect" thinking down there.

[sofa king]

24. And in five years, angry teens will be stalking the streets instead.

[alittlelark]

25. As the mother of a young teen boy - I get it.

Some of these 'games' are beyond disturbing. Catering to the lowest common denominator is insulting to our species as a whole.

My son has at least 2 friends who spend all of their free time playing violent video games. One of them is no longer allowed in our house due to a disturbing interaction w/ our daughter - the other has left the honor roll for at least 2 years (very sad - smart kid).

As ADULTS these games are entertainment. For CHILDREN they are 'lessons'.


I'm sure I will get flamed to the Nth degree - but I am going to state the obvious.

Those that say that kids should not be able to access these games (blame parents) .....blah blah blah... THEY ARE GAMES. Kids play Games.

It's kinda like the candy cigarettes they used to sell at our 5&10 stores.

[Mr. Sparkle]

26. I sort of agree with you, but given that games are age restricted

it that not a fair control over these violent games ?

[alittlelark]

28. Sure - if your kids are always in your house or at school.

Games are Games....

I hear comparisons to porn - but young kids don't care about porn - they love GAMES.

These are GAMES.

Candy cigarettes.

[Kurska]

31. Kids watch MOVIES, should we ban MOVIES that are violent aswell.

What about MUSIC, kids listen to MUSIC.

Adults play games too, infact most video games are sold to adults.

[alittlelark]

37. Kids do watch movies - they are RESTRICTED by age.

A movie theater can get shut down selling tickets to underage patrons.

Music is music - unless you believe that Marilyn Manson caused the Columbine killings (which is a stupid belief).


Games engage 3 0f the 5 senses... Teachers would love to have the ability to duplicate these games in a lesson - very difficult.


Marketing Execs spent millions$$$$ figuring out how to get into kids heads......



Kinda like the tobacco execs did - candy cigarettes.

[Kurska]

41. Video games are RESTRICTED BY AGE aswell.

Movie theaters get shut down for showing kids R rated movies because of trade practices, the MPAA rating system has no legal significance. Most retailers like Target and walmart follow the same principle and don't sell mature video games to minors and don't sell AO rated games at all.

You're offering the same kind of reactionary leg jerking that motivated people to blame Marilyn Manson for the Columbine killings.

That is easy to do because you don't like Video games and quite frankly I'm almost certain you don't understand them either.

Which is fine because just like how people cursed rock before and it is mainstream now, your way of thinking will die out with the generation that has never picked up a controller in their life.

[alittlelark]

48. If you read a few of my other posts here you would know I play

Just not games in which YOU WIN BY KILLING PEOPLE.

[Kurska]

55. Then you're not really fit to comment on the content of such games are you?

Reminds me how half the criticism for GTAIV was for things not even in the game, the reason being the critics hadn't bothered to play or research it.

[alittlelark]

59. I have played them - I dislike them.

It is my choice to like or dislike them.

It is your choice to enjoy killing things or not.

[merwin]

182. I enjoy pointing a sniper rifle at another player,

aiming slowly, and pulling the trigger to watch the other player fall to the ground in a pool of blood 100 yards away, but I have no interest in even picking up a gun in real life, other than maybe some target practice, although i haven't done that in 15 years or so.

Either I am an anomoly or violent video games do not create violent people. However, it makes perfect sense that violent people would have a higher tendency to play violent video games... just like wine ethusiests would havea higher rate of reading wine magazines.

[alittlelark]

79. If the goal of the game is to kill to win - I'm against it

I do not think that teaching kids to kill is a good thing.

I know - it sounds crazy - but I do not want to live in a world filled w/ ppl that were taught from 10 yrs old on that 'one must kill to win' is a valid world-view.

[Odin2005]

91. You're problem is that you think kids can't tell the difference between a game and reality.

Based on your reasoning we should ban Mario because you have to kill goombas and koopas to win, or ban Final Fantasy and Legend of Zelda because you kill monsters and bad guys. You are essentially banning kids from playing any fun adventure or RPG game.

Nobody like anti-fun puritans, this is why.

[merwin]

183. video games have always been about killing.

Or being killed. It is only the graphics that have gotten better. Legend of Zelda is an extremely violent game where the sole purose is killing. So which part of it is bad... the fact that you are killing mythical creatures instead of aliens or mutants or zombies that look sort of human, or is it the level of blood, or what?

Next time you think about violent video games causing a pattern of violence think about something like a flight simulator. If you are a pilot and enjoy playing simulators, are you more likely to crash a plane full of people into a building if you see what happens to the simulator when you do the same?

And to prove that it doesn't cause this, name incidents in which a murderer did what he did because of video games. That number is not even a fraction of a percent of people who play them.

People who are aggressive assholes play more violent video games because it gives them pleasure. That is a completely different set of people than the vast majority who understand it is fucking fake.

Are you also one of those who think pornography causes men to become rapists and abuse women? Just as in the last example, rapists and abusive males use pornography because it gives them pleasure. A different (and far more disgusting) type of pleasure than the 90ish percent of men who have looked at pornogrpaphy of some sort and enjoyed it (polls may show lower, but men lie about masturbation and pornography) ;)

[merwin]

209. How many killers can you name that claim

killing people in video games taught them to kill someone.

If that were true, half of the fucking country would be slaughtering each other right now.

[ronnie624]

108. Violent Video Games: Myths, Facts, and Unanswered Questions

After 40+ years of research, one might think that debate about media violence effects would be over. An historical examination of the research reveals that debate concerning whether such exposure is a significant risk factor for aggressive and violent behavior should have been over years ago (Bushman & Anderson, 2001). Four types of media violence studies provide converging evidence of such effects: laboratory experiments, field experiments, cross-sectional correlation studies, and longitudinal studies (Anderson & Bushman, 2002a; Bushman & Huesmann, 2000). But the development of a new genre—electronic video games—reinvigorated the debate.

Two features of video games fuel renewed interest by researchers, public policy makers, and the general public. First, the active role required by video games is a double-edged sword. It helps educational video games be excellent teaching tools for motivational and learning process reasons. But, it also may make violent video games even more hazardous than violent television or cinema. Second, the arrival of a new generation of ultraviolent video games beginning in the early 1990s and continuing unabated to the present resulted in large numbers of children and youths actively participating in entertainment violence that went way beyond anything available to them on television or in movies. Recent video games reward players for killing innocent bystanders, police, and prostitutes, using a wide range of weapons including guns, knives, flame throwers, swords, baseball bats, cars, hands, and feet. Some include cut scenes (i.e., brief movie clips supposedly designed to move the story forward) of strippers. In some, the player assumes the role of hero, whereas in others the player is a criminal.

The new debate frequently generates more heat than light. Many criticisms are simply recycled myths from earlier media violence debates, myths that have been repeatedly debunked on theoretical and empirical grounds. Valid weaknesses have also been identified (and often corrected) by media violence researchers themselves. Although the violent video game literature is still relatively new and small, we have learned a lot about their effects and have successfully answered several key questions. So, what is myth and what do we know?

<http://www.apa.org/science/psa/sb-anderson.html>

[chrisa]

175. LOL. I remember that.

I really hate the idiocy of people who complain about things that they haven't seen. O'Reilly does this all of the time, and probably did it for GTA IV. It's a great game, and I'm not going to go out and kill anybody. I've had those evil gun games since I was 11, and I knew then that's it's quite obviously fake as much as I do now.

Measures like this lead me to believe that the Venezuelan government is full of people who are either out of touch, or don't have the country's best interests at heart.

[Odin2005]

68. back in the day kids played "Cowboys and Indians" with sticks and pretended to kill people.

Authoritarian social engineering is a game of whack-the-mole that always fails. I've heard of a story of a mother that banned toy guns from the house and than was horrified when her kid ate his sandwich into a gun shape and started going "bang-bang" with it.

[Kurska]

77. Right on, you hit the nail on the head n/t

[alittlelark]

84. I played those games as well - they were played with other children

in the backyard - if you hit too hard they cried. We learned boundaries playing those games.

The 'bad guys' that are killed by the thousands in those games do not give any feedback.

[Odin2005]

86. Wow, both are games. Both involve suspension of disbelief.

My playing the computer game Civilization doesn't mean I condone the razing of conquered cities. You are creating a rationalization for technophobia.

[alittlelark]

90. You do realize that I am discussing their effect on CHILDREN.

Children are NOT adults. Children's brains are wired to process input into a world-view. They are LEARNING.

Whenever I see someone post some trite 'THINK OF THE CHILDREN' diss - I do, I think about them. I think about the way that they learn and what they are exposed to in our current society.

Tell me that you want a death game aficionado taking care of you in your old age.

[Odin2005]

93. one of the most kind and caring guys I know played Mortal Kombat growing up.

Kids are not blank slates. Violent video games only make people act violently if they have an inherent predisposition to violence. Kids can understand the difference between make-believe and reality, indeed, kids often understand the difference better than us grown-ups do, hence the kid telling the emperor that he has no clothes.

[ronnie624]

111. Violent video games linked to child aggression

About 90 percent of U.S. kids ages 8 to 16 play video games, and they spend about 13 hours a week doing so (more if you're a boy). Now a new study suggests virtual violence in these games may make kids more aggressive in real life.

Kids in both the U.S. and Japan who reported playing lots of violent video games had more aggressive behavior months later than their peers who did not, according to the study, which appears in the November issue of the journal Pediatrics.

The researchers specifically tried to get to the root of the chicken-or-egg problem -- do children become more aggressive after playing video games or are aggressive kids more attracted to violent videos?

It's a murky -- and controversial -- issue. Many studies have linked violence in TV shows and video games to violent behavior. But when states have tried to keep under-18 kids from playing games rated "M" for mature, the proposed restrictions have often been challenged successfully in court.

<http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/family/11/03/healthmag.violent.video.kids/index.html>

[merwin]

119. That study is complete bullshit.

Correlation does not equal causation. Kids who play violent video games probably also have faster computers (due to the inherent graphics requirements of that type of game)... They could have just as easily said that people with faster computers are more aggressive.

There is no actual real science behind this study. As I have said far too many times, to do a study that could even pass a peer review you would have to monitor the children, have a set amount of time to play. Continue the study for several years (blind study, of course) after the introduction of violent video games, with the control being the group with no exposure to video games. You could possibly add a group who plays non-violent video games.

To find if violent games cause aggressive behavior, you need to know what level the kids were at before they were introduced.

As it is, this study, along with those that say pot causes schizophrenia because schizophrenics generally have smoke more pot. You could come to the conclusion that the pot use caused schizophrenia, but it seems slightly more likely that someone with a mental illness would use illegal drugs more often as a way of sef-medicating.

[JonLP24]

129. Did not happen to me

Played video games since I was real young. Mostly football and basketball games but violent ones as well. I've only been in one fist fight as a 15 year old but the 17 year old hit me under a false belief I stole a CD of music I don't like (ICP) and had to hit back. I'm very kind person as well as generous to the point where I hate to say no. Studies may be true for some reason but I urge people to take them with a grain of salt. I grew up just fine as far as aggression goes. In fact I'm less aggressive then most people.

[Odin2005]

132. The study mixes up cause and effect.

Naturally aggressive people play more violent video games.

[Regret My New Name]

213. Oh, I see you mentioned civ before me...

[merwin]

184. Exploding bodies and screams are not feedback enough?

Come on, kids know the difference between real killing and fake. Have you ever heard of a kid setting a cat's tail on fire because they saw it on Tom and Jerry? Or Elmer Fudd... or Roadd Runner. And don't bring out that it is a cartoon and completely different unless you are prepared to say that a violent game animated like a cartoon where you is OK with you.

As a child, did you come out of a theatre and think that the events really happened? Did you ever hear of kids killing other kids because they watched Westerns?

Kid's know the difference between real life and pretend. If they don't, then they have a serious mental condition.

I think what it comes down to is that you do not like the violence and are using this to rationalize your feelings. Show me one peer reviewed study that directly shows that playing violent video games as a child causes you to be a violent adult. It has to take into account the mental status of the child at the beginning of the study, make sure there are no outside influences causing the violent tendencies, and then measure them at various points to determine their violent tendencies... controlled with the group that does not play video games and compare that to the group that plays only non-violent games. Until then, you cannot prove causation. And as we know, correlation does not equal causation.

All of these studies are using selective historical trends of some sort or a poll to get their findings. Damn scientific, if you ask me :sarcasm:

[Regret My New Name]

212. What's you opinion of games like Civilization or Hearts of Iron?

Civilization of course not limiting you to only warfare, but it is a major part of the game. I mean, dropping nukes on a city or bombing them with stealth bombers, and then pillaging the countryside with your tanks, simulates killing millions of people.

[WriteDown]

42. Bwahahahahah...

If you haven't snuck into a bunch of rated R movies as a kid, then you are doing something wrong.

[alittlelark]

46. I did - that was almost 40 years ago

We actually had a great time - my kids have done it as well.

Do you really not understand the difference between 'sneaking' and 'accepted'.

[Kurska]

52. Most retailers won't sell M rated video games to minors.

I know for a fact Target doesn't, same for walmart.

[merwin]

180. And since they are engaging these senses

as well as requiring reasoning, coordination with other players, strategy, as well as technique (hand eye coordination and response times) the kid is paying less attention overall to the violence than they are t the above listed items.

That is why games with great graphics and crappy gameplay do not sell.

[Regret My New Name]

211. So are games... I bought some game a couple years ago that required me to be 18...

I was 25 at the time and they still carded me(I didn't look under 18... :P)

[southerncrone]

27. I completely agree with you on this.

As a HS computer teacher, I see my fair share of kids who are truly "addicted" to these violent video games. I have even witnessed personality changes after they have been playing them for extended periods over school breaks. Some have even developed fascinations w/serial killers. Very disturbing.

Part of the problem is the way the rating system works on video games. Mature (M) on a video game is actually equivalent to an X rated movie. Parents don't think anything about letting them have these games, because they think "my kid" is mature enough to handle this. Plus the kid begs & begs until the parent acquiesces. If these games were labeled X (as they should be for violence) you can bet there would be fewer purchased for teens.

However, the biggest problem is parents who are off the clock when it comes to being involved in their kid's lives & activities.

I don't care for Joe Lieberman, but he was on the right track about getting video games properly labeled.

[Kurska]

29. M is not the equivalent of a X rated movie, AO is a the equivalent of a X rated movie.

Learn the rating system before you comment.

As someone who has played both M and AO rated games, I'm curious about your particular expertise in this matter, Why don't you tell us how many M rated and AO rated games you've played that form the basis of your comparing them to R rated movies?

[southerncrone]

173. I stand corrected. However, M is for 17 and older---ONLY ONE YEAR DIFFERENCE

IN AGE FROM X (AO). Many of the kids playing these games are much, much younger than 17.

Note that the Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB) acknowledges that producers "tone down" some games to get the M rating, instead of AO. What's that really about?

I've seen GTA & there is nothing "toned down" about it. A completely sick product IMO...I can't imagine how much worse the AO version would be, unless it includes actual sex acts, because the violence is already excessive & gory in the M version.

Here are the ratings explanations:

M Mature or Mature 17+ Since 1994

Contains content that might be considered unsuitable for people under 17 years of age. Titles in this category may contain intense violence (more so than in the Teen category), blood and gore, sexual themes/content, use of alcohol/drugs, and frequent use of strong language. Examples of Mature games include Halo (series), Fallout 3, Dead or Alive 4, Resident Evil, Rainbow Six: Vegas, newer games from Call of Duty (series) (Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare and onward), Gears of War, Hitman: Contracts, Dark Sector, Wanted: Weapons of Fate, Stranglehold, the Grand Theft Auto series , Mortal Kombat: Deception , and Manhunt. Many retailers (such as Target and Wal-Mart in the United States, Future Shop in Canada, GameStop and Best Buy in both countries) have a policy of not selling games with this rating to younger teenagers and others under the age of 17 without parental presence and approval. Some M-rated symbols have 17+ next to the word "Mature".

Ao Adults Only Since 1994

Contains content that is considered unsuitable for people under 18 years of age, and cannot be bought, or legally played by anyone below that age. These may include adult video games that depict sex and nudity and/or extreme depictions of violence that include blood and gore. As of August 2007, there have been twenty-five products which have received the rating, most of which are available on Windows and Apple Macintosh computers, as well as the CD-i. The AO rating is the subject of ongoing, heated controversy due to the extreme restrictions it places on game sales. Most of the major video game console manufacturers (such as Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft) strictly prohibit the release and sale of AO-rated games on their consoles. Games from major publishers that receive an AO rating are often 'toned down' in order to gain the lesser rating of M such as Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas and Manhunt 2.

[alittlelark]

32. Realistic labeling would help to some degree.

But I know of too many parents who would ignore it.

I live in a very affluent area filled w/ kids whose parents give them just about anything they want.

It's messed up - and so are many of the kids.

[Kurska]

33. How many Video games have you played and beaten? Where does this knowledge of them come from?

I'm DEATHLY curious where you get off passing judgement on a entire medium of entertainment.

[alittlelark]

43. I finished 3 Sonics, Ecco the Dolphin, 101 Dalmations, Toy Story...

...and others.

I dislike 'games' in which you must KILL.

Sorry - I guess I'm a BAD gamer.

I dislike games in which you must KILL to win.

[WriteDown]

45. This is a good idea...

I have found that since playing Halo that I am way too numb to killing fundie aliens.

[Kurska]

49. Anything a little more modern? Games 20 years ago hardly makes for practical experience.

You can also dislike movies where the main character has to kill to win (Afterall all you're doing in a video game is playing a main character). No reason for calling to ban them.

[Violet_Crumble]

60. I have to strongly object! Monkey Island is giving me lots of practical experience!!

Once I've mastered the crappy navigation when I play it on my iphone, I'm all set up to master whatever new system with ultra-crappy navigation my employer can throw at me. Monkey Island rules!!!

[Kurska]

69. Didn't a new monkey Island game come out, I heard it was rather good actually. n/t

[alittlelark]

92. These games are 5-10 years old

I know that they may sound stupid - but they were really fun.

[Codeine]

116. Sonic and Ecco are like 18 years old.

Dalmatians is about ten years old. None of them represent modern platform gaming to any degree.

[bitchkitty]

149. So you're saying that one must play

a violent video game in order to recognize that it's violent?

Sorry, but that's just moronic.

[Kurska]

153. I'd say you should actually be knowledgeable of the content of something you're criticizing.

Is that such a strange concept, if you haven't PLAYED BIOSHOCK, you aren't qualified to comment on the content of bioshock.

[bitchkitty]

156. Not a strange concept, but certainly a stupid one.

By that logic, if you've never committed a crime, you're not qualified to sit on a jury. If you've never baked a cake, you can't comment on the taste. If you've never smoked crack cocaine, you can't comment on its illegality.

I think you're playing too many video games.

[merwin]

185. If you are on a jury, you become an expert on the case.

False analogy. The proper one would have been a juror who made up their mind after the opening arguments and wore earplugs during the case because he dislikes murder and therefore the guy is guilty.

I think what the poster is trying to say is that you have never had the experience of playing one of those games to the end or even watching one of those games being played through, yet feel qualified to say that it causes you to become more aggressive after playing it.

Ignore whether or not you agree with the depection of killing people in a video game and find proof that playing the game itself causes you to become violent.

You are coming to a conclusion based on your moral beliefs (that one should not play violent games) and saying that it causes violence, without any evidence to back it up that involves real scientific research instead of vaugely related correlations.

[bitchkitty]

186. Talk about jumping to conclusions.

You haven't the faintest idea of my moral beliefs. I stated my opinion, which is that you don't have to play a game to the end in order to form an opinion on the violence contained in it, and you don't have to play violent games to be against them. I don't know that they cause violence - I would think that they do, but I don't have kids to worry about, and think gaming is boring. If the poster wants to play violent games that is his prerogative.

[Chisox08]

102. There is realistic labeling most people are too lazy to read it

For example on the back of the Gears of War 2 case: Blood and Gore Intense violence and strong language. The box tells you why a game earned the rating it has.
The sale of M rated games is restricted to those 18 and older. You can get fired for selling a M rated game to a minor without the parent. On top of that we must explain the content of a game to the parent before the game is sold.

[Odin2005]

62. If you don't want your kid to play the game THEN DO NOT BUY IT.

The state shouldn't be a surrogate nanny by preventing adults from buying the games just because kids COULD get a hang of them.

Fuck the Nanny-Statists. "Think of the children"rhetoric is a shameless Orwellian tactic to scare parents into supporting authoritarianism.

[alittlelark]

78. I'll keep him from going over to other kids houses too.

PPl try to make a corollary between porn and these violent games - it's BS.

Porn is sexual - different kids at different ages indulge - it is sex. Sex is natural, interest in sex is natural and should be fostered for healthy childhood development.

KILLING PEOPLE to 'WIN' is not natural (at least I hope not). Young children are affected by it.

[Odin2005]

88. I'm sure all those kids who played war games with sticks all turned into monsters, then, eh?

You are insulting the intelligence of children by implying that they don't distinguish between "make-believe" and reality.

[alittlelark]

94. Children do not have B/W distinctions between fantasy and reality

That is a distinctive difference between children and adults. Some kids are in their middle teens before they can accurately decipher fantasy from reality.

Children are not 'little adults' - they are blank slates upon which society and their experiences write in order to create a world-view which will stay w/ them forever.


The 'cowboys and indians' games I played as a kid ended when someone got hurt too bad or were crying. We learned how far to push things - and saw the results of our actions.

[Odin2005]

97. Children are NOT blank slates.

That notion has been dead for years except in the minds of authoritarian wannabe social engineers that wish to create a New Man that fits their ideological demands.

And they DO understand the difference between fantasy and reality, sometimes even better than adults, it's the kid that tells the emperor that he has no clothes in the popular story.

[alittlelark]

99. How many have you raised?

Saying 'blank slate' is indeed simplified. The fact is that they have options on each level. On a scale of 1-10 some have the ability to achieve between a 3 and a 6 - their education will determine where they land.

On a scale of killing ppl ??? knows what effect these games will have.



Time will tell.

[Odin2005]

100. Everyone was a child once.

And I have a 10yo niece and a 3yo nephew. I babysat the niece a lot when she was little. Oh, and we love playing video games when we are both at my parents' place. She certainly can tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

[merwin]

120. You honestly think kids cant tell the difference between

fantasy and reality and are blank slates? Penn and Teller covered this by taking a young kid who was heavily into violent video games and puting him in front of a target with a real gun. After shooting it, the kid had a near mental breakdown sobbing. I think the kid was around 12 or so.

Playing a video game with animated characters killing animated monsters has little if no affect on causing violent behavior. There are children who, be it due to their family situation or mental illness, are predisposed to violent behavior. Those kids may have their violent behavior reinforced by games, but ultimately it is not the cause. Name one violent shooter who honestly (not as a cop-out for trial) believes that video games caused them to kill others. There are ALWAYS other factors involved.

To note, the kids who end up killing mass numbers of people are always described as quiet and reserved, the exact opposite of what this study is concluding.

I assume that you are eqally angry at Tom and Jerry cartoons and the like, which have far more realistic and reproducable violence than most of these games. i think a kid is far more likely to enter into a situation where a baseball bat can be used to beat the crap out of someone than having access to a pulse gun killing aliens.

Even my 3 year old knows the difference between fantasy play and reality, unless he actually thinks there are people dying on his toy bus that he crashes when he is pretending.

Historically, children have been exposed to violence whether it be hunting, raising cattle or chickenw, etc and watching them butchered. Watching my dad cut the had off of a chicken or shoot a cow when it was time for meat did not make me any more prone to violence. In fact, it helped cement th fact that when you shoot something, it dies... making me more careful and certainly didn't give me the taste of blood and make me want to kill people.

[Odin2005]

163. Exactly. Excellent post!

"Penn and Teller covered this by taking a young kid who was heavily into violent video games and puting him in front of a target with a real gun. After shooting it, the kid had a near mental breakdown sobbing. I think the kid was around 12 or so."

That certainly describes me in my teen years. In fact, those violent video games functioned as an escape valve if I was pissed off, it's better to kill fantasy monsters to let off steam than it is to lash out at real people violently.

[EFerrari]

168. And yet video simulation is how a lot of us were taught to drive.

How do you get to Carnegie Hall?

[merwin]

172. I played lots of racing games before driving

and none of them prepared me for getting behind the wheel... there is a huge leap between virtually crashing and physically crashing.

Even a child knows the difference between dying in a video game and in real life. There is no fear involved in games, but take that same "violent" kid and put him in the same situation, but real life and the reaction will be different.

You should only start being worried when the self preservation instinct stops kicking in... and that signifies mental disorder, not too much video games

[chrisa]

177. You're not killing "people."

You're making the 3D model gun on the screen shoot simulated bullets into other 3D models that were coded to simulate human movement; all of which were created by talented artists. Anybody who doesn't have a mental illness can distinguish fact from fiction.

Young children are not playing adult games. If they are, they shouldn't be; but it doesn't mean adults shouldn't be able to play them.

[merwin]

138. Actually, these games are not at all lowest common denominator.

Most of them have a distinct plot with at least 10 substories going on, use complex reasoning skills and problem solving, teaches working as a team, practices an extreme amountof hand-eye coordination and plenty of other skills that are applicable.

The reason that I mentioned hand-eye coordination (usually laughed at as a reason) is because each fraction of a second you can shave off your reaction time, the easier it will be to do tasks like sports, driving, martial arts, etc.

I would put forth the idea that a kid playing these games is spend more of his brainpower on strategy and execution of the plan than on the actual violence, whereas with movies you are 100 percent focused on the violence.

This is coming from someone who experienced it first hand... low and behold, even after 20 to 30 hours a week as a young teen I did not feel the need to use any of the 5 guns that were in our house.

[Odin2005]

164. When I was 4 (in 1990) my doctor told my mom to get a Nintendo for exactly that reason!

The doc told her that video games are good for brain development. Now days a doctor saying that would lead to the anti-game idiots to crucify the doctor. Many RPGs and adventure games really work a person's problem-solving abilities. The possibilities for using video games for education is endless, yet few people see the potential because of the BS "video games rot your brain" assumption. IMO it's nothing but an expression of our society's Calvinistic "anything fun is bad" mentality.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

152. It's a shame we can't ban bad parenting.

[Lorien]

187. Facts are facts; violent video games and films move some to violent

behavior. This has been well documented since the 1960's.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/family/11/03/healthmag.violent.video.kids/index.html


Violent video games linked to child aggression

* Story Highlights
* Researchers looked at how video game habits related to behavior 3 to 6 months later
* Kids exposed to more video game violence became more aggressive over time
* Are aggressive kids attracted to violent games or do the games make kids violent?
* Imitation, desensitization are ways that violent games can lead to real-life aggression


By Anne Harding
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Health

About 90 percent of U.S. kids ages 8 to 16 play video games, and they spend about 13 hours a week doing so (more if you're a boy). Now a new study suggests virtual violence in these games may make kids more aggressive in real life.
Kids shouldn't play games where hunting down and killing people is the goal, says one expert.

Kids shouldn't play games where hunting down and killing people is the goal, says one expert.

Kids in both the U.S. and Japan who reported playing lots of violent video games had more aggressive behavior months later than their peers who did not, according to the study, which appears in the November issue of the journal Pediatrics.

The researchers specifically tried to get to the root of the chicken-or-egg problem -- do children become more aggressive after playing video games or are aggressive kids more attracted to violent videos?

It's a murky -- and controversial -- issue. Many studies have linked violence in TV shows and video games to violent behavior. But when states have tried to keep under-18 kids from playing games rated "M" for mature, the proposed restrictions have often been challenged successfully in court.

In the new study, Dr. Craig A. Anderson, Ph.D., of Iowa State University in Ames, and his colleagues looked at how children and teen's video game habits at one time point related to their behavior three to six months later.

The study included three groups of kids: 181 Japanese students ages 12 to 15; 1,050 Japanese students aged 13 to 18; and 364 U.S. kids ages 9 to 12.

The U.S. children listed their three favorite games and how often they played them. In the younger Japanese group, the researchers looked at how often the children played five different violent video game genres (fighting action, shooting, adventure, among others); in the older group they gauged the violence in the kids' favorite game genres and the time they spent playing them each week.

Japanese children rated their own behavior in terms of physical aggression, such as hitting, kicking or getting into fights with other kids; the U.S. children rated themselves too, but the researchers took into account reports from their peers and teachers as well.

In every group, children who were exposed to more video game violence did become more aggressive over time than their peers who had less exposure. This was true even after the researchers took into account how aggressive the children were at the beginning of the study -- a strong predictor of future bad behavior.

The findings are "pretty good evidence" that violent video games do indeed cause aggressive behavior, says Dr. L. Rowell Huesmann, director of the Research Center for Group Dynamics at the University of Michigan's Institute for Social Research in Ann Arbor.

There are two ways violent media can spur people to violent actions, said Huesmann, who has been studying violence in media and behavior for more than 30 years. Read about the celebrity-mom slugfest over vaccines

First is imitation; children who watch violence in the media can internalize the message that the world is a hostile place, he explains, and that acting aggressively is an OK way to deal with it.

Also, he says, kids can become desensitized to violence. "When you're exposed to violence day in and day out, it loses its emotional impact on you," Huesmann said. "Once you're emotionally numb to violence, it's much easier to engage in violence." Read how children may not outgrow bipolar disorder

But Dr. Cheryl K. Olson, co-director of the Center for Mental Health and the Media at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, isn't convinced.

"It's not the violence per se that's the problem, it's the context and goals of the violence," said Olson, citing past research on TV violence and behavior.

There are definitely games kids shouldn't be playing, she said, for example those where hunting down and killing people is the goal. But she argues that the label "violent video games" is too vague. Researchers need to do a better job at defining what is considered a violent video game and what constitutes aggressive behavior, she added.
Health Library

* MayoClinic.com: Children's health

"I think there may well be problems with some kinds of violent games for some kinds of kids," Olson said. "We may find things we should be worried about, but right now we don't know enough."

Further, she adds, playing games rated "M" for mature has become "normative behavior" for adolescents, especially boys. "It's just a routine part of what they do," she says. Read why food allergies in children are on the rise

Her advice to parents? Move the computer and gaming stuff out of kids' rooms and into public spaces in the home, like the living room, so they can keep an eye on what their child is up to.

Dr. David Walsh, president of the National Institute on Media and the Family, a Minneapolis-based non-profit, argues that the pervasiveness of violence in media has led to a "culture of disrespect" in which children get the message that it's acceptable to treat one another rudely and even aggressively.

"It doesn't necessarily mean that because a kid plays a violent video game they're immediately going to go out and beat somebody up," Walsh says. "The real impact is in shaping norms, shaping attitude. As those gradually shift, the differences start to show up in behavior."
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Copyright Health Magazine 2009

[Fearless]

34. What's the difference between banning a video game and a book?

I'm serious.

[Kurska]

35. Easy, the people that want to ban video games don't play video games.

AKA, "That censorship doesn't effect me so I support it" syndrome.

[alittlelark]

95. I play video games - but not the KILL THEM ALL variety

I don't want a ban - I want registration #'s. That way if a 9 year old gets a copy of it we'll know where he got it.

[Chisox08]

114. A 9 year old can not I repeat can not buy M rated games

without the parents there. Most stores won't even accept the money from the 9 year child for a M rated game, the parent has to pay for it.

[bemildred]

44. Video games and books are entirely different things.

Video games are more like movies or TV shows than books. More about watching than reading. That seems like the main difference to me.

[Kurska]

47. Really you think Video games are less interactive then books?

I've played some fantastic videos games that really made me think. Bioshock for instance is the best deconstruction of Objectivism I've seen in any medium. Because you actually had to walk through the ruins and interact with the results of Andrew Ryan's (The main antagonist) escapades as a blind ideologue it touched me more sincerely then any literary reaction to that philosophy.

[bemildred]

63. No, I think they are entirely different things. Learn to read.

I said nothing about being "less interactive". I don't really know which I would judge to be "more interactive", the thing is that the interaction is in entirely different modes. If anything I would say books are more passive, all the action is mental, you don't DO anything but turn the pages. It is true that many video games require some modest ability to read simple directions etc, but they are still nothing like a book, or any work of writing for reading.

[Kurska]

66. "games require some modest ability to read" Could you be any more dismissive?

Apparently you're so concerned with having beloved books tainted by association with dirty video games you revert to petty insults.
The most worthwhile media I've ever partaken in happened to be books, but I see nothing innately superior in the written word over the witnessed Image and sound or for that matter the interactive Image, sound and occasional text.

[bemildred]

70. Not much.

I play lots of video games, have been for decades. I still have the original Wolf 3D, Doom, Leisure Suit Larry, you name it.

You sure do project a lot.

[Kurska]

73. I don't know where your dismissive and honestly arrogant attitude is coming from then.

Project? Do you think I secretly find videogames inadequate compared to books?

[bemildred]

75. I have no idea what you "secretly find".

You seem at best angry and incoherent to me, with serious control issues. That is not, by the way, a recipe for a happy life on internet discussion boards, but maybe that works for you.

Your notion that I ought to unquestioningly accept your views and prejudices when they differ from mine seems far more arrogant than anything I have said. However it is nice of you to concede that I am at least forthright about my "arrogance".

[Kurska]

80. Oh no don't hold back, tell me what you REALLY think about me.

I'm the only one so far who has actually provided a example to back up my thoughts ( for those just joining us I view videos games as a thematic story telling medium equal to books) you seem to be insulted that I don't take your opinion at face value and declare it equally as informed.

[bemildred]

83. Yes, yes, I am deeply insulted, I don't know how long it may take me to recover.

:popcorn::popcorn:

[Odin2005]

71. Media is media. Censoring media is anti-liberal and anti-freedom.

[bemildred]

72. And not making appropriate distinctions among different media is stupid.

McLuhan had it right long ago, the medium is the message. So now you have appointed yourself the arbiter or who gets to be liberal and freedom loving. Some people might think that it is high-handed, anti-liberal, and anti-freedom to try to bully other people about their opinions about trivial subjects like video games.

[Kurska]

74. Censorship is never trivial. n/t

[bemildred]

76. I look forward to watching your crusade against all forms of censorship of anything at all.

:popcorn::popcorn:

[Kurska]

82. Censorship is always foolish, don't like it, then don't watch it.

It is as simple as that. I don't see why disliking censorship is apparently worthy of ridicule, but hey whatever floats your ideological boat mac.

[bemildred]

85. Indeed, sound advice, watching stuff you don't like is bound to be unsatisfactory. nt

[Kurska]

87. I think you've exhausted any real input you've had on the topic.

So with that, I'll end this exchange.

In before "Oh no I'll miss your wit and insightful opinions" sarcasm.

[bemildred]

98. Some time ago actually. It's not really that complicated.

But you are right, time to move on. Have a nice day.
:hi:

[Forkboy]

217. Videogames are not passive like tv and movies, and less passive than any book.

A movie or tv show will finish with zero input from the viewer. See how far you get in a game by just staring at the controller. Games are not just watching, by any means. Take the game Pharaoh, for instance. It's a city building game set in Egyptian times, where you start with a blank piece of land. On that you build some small houses, which will improve over time to larger, nicer houses, assuming you keep the citizens happy (if not, they move back out). To keep them happy, they first need water, which means building a well or fountain nearby. They also need food, which mean hunting game or building farms of various kinds. But before that food gets to your people it has to be delivered to a granary, and from there to a market. Once at the market it gets delivered to the area near the market. To build schools you need to have papyrus. For that you need to build a reed gatherer, and then a papyrus maker. When it's done it gets delivered to a warehouse, where either your people can use it, or you can use it in trade. Oh, I didn't mention that while you're doing all this you have to balance the economy of your city, juggle wage rates, tax rates, trade balances (you will have to trade to get many of the goods your people demand...silk and pottery can't always be made in your city, and importing it is a must), religion (you have various gods that must be kept appeased through tribute or festivals in their honor, all of which cost money), military (other regions can be friendly or aggressive, and are affected by your actions towards them), and the happiness of your citizens, which is affected either good or bad by the types of building around them (people don't like to live near military bases, for example, yet forums, temples, etc keep them happy), the amount of different food and luxary items you provide them, etc. Building a pyramid requires stone masons and stone, woodworkers and wood, potterers and pottery, granite for statue carvers, etc, all of which have to be built and filled with employees. Each one of those factors requires micro management. This is just a fraction of what this game asks you to do at any given time. And this is just the basics. After an hour or two you have a city of thousands of people that you're trying to keep happy to meet your goals.

Tell me one movie, or even a book, that demands we think of so many factors at once?

The only difference between books and games is that you look down your nose at one and not the other.

[bemildred]

219. Hey Forkboy

:hi:

Please see post #63. It is certainly true that I look down my nose at video games relative to books, but I play lots of video games anyway. OTOH I rarely watch movies, and never watch TV.

[Posteritatis]

195. Banning video games plays better with the fear-based community

Usually, anyway. There's plenty of books they'd like to get rid of too, of course.

[Prometheus Bound]

51. All violent video games to be banned in Germany

Friday, 05 Jun 2009 20:06

German ministers have today agreed to ban the production and distribution of all violent video games, with the law only having to go through parliament in the next few weeks.

http://www.gamezine.co.uk/news/formats/xbox360/all-violent-video-games-be-banned-in-germany-$1301757.htm

[RedCloud]

81. Good point. Our "blue dog" DUers will totally ignore you.

They have to keep the Freeper talking points alive.

[Prometheus Bound]

53. List of banned video games in Australia and other countries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games#Australia

[Violet_Crumble]

58. I'm still a bit nonplussed as to why some Americans think my personal freedom's restricted...

I'm guessing that when countries like Australia and Germany ban violent games, it's okay, but when Venezuela does it, it's not, and it's got lots more to do with it being Venezuela than about violent games. Not sure what the logic is there, but that's what it seems to boil down to.

[Kurska]

61. It isn't okay in Australia, Germany, Venezuela or on Mars for that matter.

Censorship is never okay.

[Prometheus Bound]

65. Yes, I don't remember a single thread about freedom lost when other countries did the same.

It seems to be an irrational and unrelenting hatred President Chavez and the concept of sharing the wealth.

[Kurska]

67. Chavez is a hotbutton issue, people like to post in contentious threads.

Does this surprise you?

[Xithras]

188. You weren't reading closely then.

The internet was buzzing with discussions about fascism and big brotherism when Australia began banning video games a number of years ago. I remember getting into a LOT of discussions on the subject.

Germany's censorship of violent material predates the Internet, so obviously there was no online discussion about it.

[Prometheus Bound]

190. No, Germany is still contemplating a ban. It hasn't introduced it yet.

[JonQ]

54. There has never been a reputable study done

that could correlate access to violent video games and real world acts of violence.

This is just a move towards censorship.

[Odin2005]

64. All claims that video games cause violent behavior mix up cause and effect.

Violent people buy violent video games, violent video games don't make people violent.

[proteus_lives]

89. And freedom marches on in Venezuela.

:eyes:

Censorship- :puke:

[EFerrari]

109. More US states target video game violence

More US states target video game violence
4 March 2005 22:30 by James "Dela" Delahunty

More US states target video game violence Lawmakers across the United States continue to propose legislation they claim will safeguard kids from the effects of video game violence. Most violent video games in the United States are rated M (meaning Mature) by the Entertainment Software Ratings Board. For example, Senator Shawn Womack authored a bill that would require all stores that rent or sell video games, to display games with a rating of M at least five feet away from the floor. A vendor who violated the law could be fined up to $500.

Washington State representatives Mary Lou Dickerson, Jim McCune and Jim McDermott have authored a bill that would hold game companies accountable when a minor commits a violent act that may have been inspired by a game they played. "These games choreograph violence in a stylized and romanticized way that encourages children and adolescents to associate violence and killing with pleasure, entertainment, feelings of achievement and personal empowerment," the bill states.

An Alabama family recently filed suit against Take Two Interactive over its Grand Theft Auto games after a young man killed three police officers. All games are created with one of their major aims being to get an emotional response from the player. What I would like to know is how can you blame that emotional response you got from a video game after you murdered three police officers? It's not fair to blame gaming companies for your own actions. In fact, this just gives people (mostly offending minors) a way out by simply blaming a video game at home for their actions.

Attempting to hide something out of the view/reach of minors is not always the best option. Right now, playing violent video games is not a very "big" thing to do since you can get a violent video game easily from stores. However, I believe as soon as the violent games hit the top shelf and the stores start asking for I.D., it will become a big deal because the minors will feel the need to do what they are not supposed to. If you were a kid, wouldn't you like to play a violent video game when you are ordered not to?

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/6177.cfm

As usual, Venezuela is singled out for something that is not only widely considered or done, but done right here.

[proteus_lives]

110. It ain't right here

And it's not right there.

[EFerrari]

112. Having the discussion is what happens in democracies.

And that brings up another thing: the headline is bs. Venezuela hasn't "planned" anything. They're having a discussion about a bill.

[troubledamerican]

103. None of the anti-Chavez SCUM here seem to mention THIS

Explain THIS you deceivers:

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/100481

[proteus_lives]

106. And that's supposed to excuse censorship?

"anti-Chavez SCUM" Ahh, the shrill voice of the true believer. None may question your glorious leader, question the party line, blah, blah, blah.

:rofl:

[fascisthunter]

193. because they are scum

[Jkid]

105. I really want to see a english translation of this law.

Have the mainstream media even read this law?

[western mass]

113. The good thing about these laws...

is that a year or two after they're enacted, we'll have the data to show that banning video games does absolutely nothing to decrease crime and violence.

[Chisox08]

115. We all know that the world was a peaceful place before videogames

There was no wars, crime and Compton was a peaceful bunny ranch. That was until video games arrived.
The link between violence and video games does not exist and anybody that says it is so is full of bullshit.

[benEzra]

141. The zealots will just argue that the law wasn't strict enough

and/or the punishment for violations weren't harsh enough, and that if stricter/harsher controls were instituted, you'd begin to see an effect.

[dipsydoodle]

117. Its no more restricting personal freedoms

than film & video ratings and censorship. Manhunt 2 is banned in the UK.

[Nihil]

126. Shhhh!

Don't go confusing the visiting Freedom Police with facts when they are
in the middle of a nice anti-Chavez rant ... mixed messages are awkward
when you live in a binary world ...
:shrug:

[dipsydoodle]

127. lol

I always forget you're over here. :hi:

[benEzra]

142. It's no less freedom-restricting than censorship, either.

Or would you be OK with James Dobson and Jerry Falwell legislating what books, movies, music, and websites you are allowed to read, watch, and/or listen to?

[EFerrari]

146. Except the two cases aren't the same. Ven has a problem

with violent crime in the cities, not with allowing nutcases to dictate public policy based on their "religious" beliefs.

And we do have censorship here. Media held by a few corporations exclude a lot of material that is unflattering to their parent organizations. Which is why, for example, you'll never see a film by John Pilger airing on your teevee and why so many of the best journalists have gone to work for foreign outlets or in the Indy media.

/oops

[benEzra]

150. The "violent video games are of the debbil" movement is no less religious

than the "violent/sexy movies are of the debbil" movement; it is just more recent.

Here's the guy behind the "ban mature games to protect the children" movement, if you're interested:

Jack Thompson (activist)

He has gotten some support in the media from Dave Grossman (On Killing), also a conservative.

[EFerrari]

151. Right and I agree, these people are nutcases.

But there's no evidence that they are influencing the discussion in Ven & there are plenty of secular venues, i.e., psychologists, for example, that work this street. So, the religious context isn't the only possible one.

If anything, Ven is moving in the direction of more secularism, not less, and that's one reason the Catholic Church there hates the Chavez government with a passion.

[Kurska]

155. Secular doesn't equal right.

You can be closed minded and have nothing at all to do with god.

[EFerrari]

157. I was responding to a post that assumed a religious context,

not asserting that secular = right.

[benEzra]

158. The video game-violence "link" has been pretty thoroughly debunked

in the peer reviewed literature. Most of the memes repeated by the pro-restrictions activist are those originated by Thompson, Grossman, and other idealogically driven moralists, though those repeating them may not have a religious motivation for doing so.

Exactly the same arguments were made in the past about movies, comic books, and TV programs; before that, they were made about opera and the theater, going back to Shakespeare's time. The British government shut down the Globe Theatre for a few years, using many of the same memes.

[EFerrari]

159. The Globe was mostly shut down because of plague during SH's time

but you're right that playgoing was a popular subject of pulpit rants. Iirc, it was during Cromwell's time (after 1641) that the theaters were shut down.

[benEzra]

161. Yes, I was thinking of the Cromwell era.

Generally speaking, I don't think idealogues of any stripe make very pleasant leaders to live under, and Cromwell was certainly no exception to that.

[EFerrari]

165. The cure was worse than the disease.

But before him, the Crown started tightly controlling the theater in the late 1500s. They outlawed casual venues and reduced the number of places you could "play" from over a hundred in London alone to just three big theaters that they could control more of less completely. That was their version of "media consolidation". :)

I'm not too worried about censorship in Ven because the public won't put up with it, and unlike us, they have no problem going into the street when they are unhappy.

[Divine Discontent]

118. well that does it - I'm not becoming a foreign national in Venezuela then!

lol... but seriously, as long as they use and follow age restriction on ratings at these new & used stores that sell the games, we wouldn't have probs... outright banning them is creepyville.

[JonLP24]

128. This is not the way to solve rampant violence

This is coming from someone who plays a violent video game franchise (GTA) who hasn't been in a fist fight since I was 15.

[paulk]

140. Got to blame something for the rise in violence

I guess video games are as good an excuse as any....

[EFerrari]

145. Ven gets criticized either way. When they tried putting patrols

on public transit systems to increase visibility, they were "fomenting a police state". When that didn't get results and they pulled them, they were "ignoring violent crime".

[Joanne98]

148. I wish we could get rid of violent video games.

Knee-jerk reactions shooting things is making us a country of retards. Can't anybody come up with a game that teachers something useful?

[Kurska]

154. You're the one jerking your moral knee over your head.

There are plenty of educational games, mostly employed by schools and very popular on the internet.
You do realize you knee jerking ban reflex is much more harmful to society then twitch reflexes right?

[EFerrari]

160. There is nothing moralistic in Joanne's post. n/t

[Odin2005]

166. Why don't you ban kids from playing "War" with sticks while you are at it?

Oh, and lets ban Risk as well because it glamorizes Napoleon Era warfare! :sarcasm:

Video games are GOOD for brain development, they help with fine-motor skills, problem solving, strategic thinking, and spatial perception.

Nanny Statists like you should never be in charge.

[David__77]

162. I don't agree with this.

It's a social evil to be sure, but addressing these things with a command-administrative impulse isn't the way to go.

[Adam Kirur]

167. That man needs Jesus in his life!

Then he would know what Americans know: Sex bad, violence good.

[EFerrari]

169. LOL. Welcome to DU.

:)

[Adam Kirur]

200. Thank you!

Still feeling my way around.

[clspector]

171. First it was

the novel. Then it was the movies. Then it was radio. Then it was comic books. Then TV. Now video games. (Throw rock and roll in there, too.) The complete inability of people to remember history never fails to stagger me.

[IrishBuckeye]

176. Hitler played a lot of video games. /nm

/nm

[ZombieHorde]

206. Funny. Welcome to DU. nt

[Dreamer Tatum]

192. Just apply the Bush Litmus Test

Simply replace all references to Chavez and his regime by George W. Bush, and see if the replies still make sense.
That's the greatest indicator for whether someone should be taken seriously in all matters Venezuelan.

[Moochy]

201. Check one

So Either...
Censorship is awesome, Chavez is awesome, Venezuela is Awesome.
Censorship sucks, Chaves Sucks, Venezuela Sucks!

Do I get another choice? Like Censorship sucks everywhere, and DU's "Centrists with hate-filled-hard-ons for Chavez" suck slightly more?

[Arrowhead2k1]

214. Good. I'm glad.

Let's see how this completely fails for them so nobody else gets the same idea elsewhere.

[BOG PERSON]

215. "rampant violence is devastating, but i fail to see how restricting personal freedoms to consume

media is going to help."

[BOG PERSON]

216. ¡mis preciosos videojuegos!