Gold medal athlete Caster Semenya told to prove she is a woman

[hunter]

Source: guardian.co.uk

The world of athletics was hit by controversy tonightafter a female South African athlete who won the 800m final at the world championships was asked to take a gender verification test to prove she is a woman.

Caster Semenya, an 18-year-old who had never competed outside of Africa, before this week aroused suspicions when she posted the fastest 800m time in the world this year, winning gold at the African junior championships.

Tonight she won the gold medal in Berlin in 1 minute 55.45 seconds, the best in the world this year, beating Janeth Jepkosgei, the defending champion, by 2.45 seconds. The British runner Jenny Meadows won the bronze medal.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/aug/19/caster-semenya-gender-verification-test

---

Illustrating how gender is a complex and controversial issue...

I wish her the very best. People can be mean.

[JonQ]

1. Simple enough test

just karyotype her and settle the issue. XX = girl, XY = boy.

[provis99]

2. uh, no, that might not work.

about one in 100 women has XY chromosones. ie they are genetically male, but physically female.

[JonQ]

4. Then by the standards employed in proffessional atheletics

they are male.

Yes I know, androgen insensitivity and all that. But that really is the test they use.

[Wizard777]

18. Not to mention that many African and even some African America women have hormone problems.

I've known AA women with mustaches thicker than most black males. They were also kinda muscular and had deep voices. She said the problem was more prevalent in Africa.

[WriteDown]

21. Are you sure that wasn't just...

Patrick Ewing?

[Wizard777]

23. I didn't do any tests. But everyone assured me she was a woman. I had my suspicions at first.

Then I met HER children. :wow: :blush: I've seen some really crazy things in my 77 years. I'd hate to tell you about it.

[WriteDown]

29. See post 28. You make the call.

:)

[customerserviceguy]

22. I looked, but I could not confirm that statistic

It seems very high. Perhaps you have a source?

[Psephos]

25. It's actually about 1 in 20,000

Interesting article here, btw:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/opinion/03boylan.html?pagewanted=all

[WriteDown]

3. What if she's?

XXX? Or XXY? :)

[sofa king]

6. Or transgendered?

That would probably be considered... what? I don't think I can even guess what the sport would say about that, if it hasn't said something silly already.

[Critters2]

38. Transgender isn't an issue of hormones. They have the hormones

of the gender of their bodies. Their psyches feel dysphoric in that identity. Wouldn't show up in a hormone test, nor affect athletic ability.

[JonQ]

11. xxx= female

xxy = klinefelters male.

[The Stranger]

36. Oh yeah?

What about XZ?

[Fearless]

17. I'm XXX...

:spank: :+

[JonQ]

30. Generally speaking

an xxx female is really not that different than an xx female, although you have a better chance of producing an xxy son, but that isn't really a major deal either.

Since each x chromosome is basically enough to cover an individual (that's how males get by with one) in females one is geared to shut down anyway (barr bodies). So for those with an extra one the process is basically the same. Development and external features are generally the same as for xx, many don't even know they have it.

So getting back to the OP, they would be female beyond question if tested for athletic competitions.

[Fearless]

31. See the thing is... I was making a joke...

I know what you referenced and understand it entirely I assure you.

[JonQ]

32. Ok

it is a pretty common anomaly so it's entirely believable that you might have had it.

My mistake.

[hunter]

9. That doesn't work.

It's possible to be XY and female.

[JonQ]

12. No it isn't

from a purely biological standpoint that is impossible.

It is however possible to be xy with a condition known as androgen insensitivity, where you produce testosterone at a normal rate for a man, but your body fails to recognize it. You still have the Sex-determining region on your y chromosome, so you have testicles, but they are located where ovaries would normally be found in a woman. External physical characteristics are female, genetically male, and sterile.

That is why in some places they've gone over to using the SRY identification, but that has apparently had some issues as well.


I suppose you could test for both a y chromosome and response to testosterone, but that would only be necessary for "females" with a y chromosome who claim to have never had a sex change operation. At which point those that are in fact genotypically male, but never developed as such because they lack the testosterone receptor I suppose could be declared female for the sake of athletic competition, as they didn't get any advantages that men usually get (testosterone is great for building muscle).

But that isn't likely a huge issue as it's A) fairly rare, and B) doesn't tend to promote athletic ability.

[hunter]

14. Gender testing for sports hasn't been done that way for many years.

There are simply too many ways for gender development to proceed down another pathway than the usual XY / XX dichotomy.

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/gender-test.htm

I always wonder if there might be a few male athletes of indeterminate gender.

Nobody ever says, "Hey that guy won because she's a woman!"

[JonQ]

27. That's essentially a more in depth version

of what I said. External examination is pretty pointless for many, obviously that would exclude those who are clearly male, but that was never an issue.

The psychological exam seems pointless to me, as it's really irrelevant how the person thinks of themselves, genderwise, for the sake of competition.

Essentially two things matter: do they have a functioning SRY region, do they have functioning testosterone receptors. If the answer to both is yes, they should not compete with women. If it is no to either they should be allowed.

[hunter]

43. I'm still trying to figure out what "a purely biological standpoint" is.

Look at birds -- the heterogametic sex is female.

Does this mean that birds are violating some standard of biological purity?

:shrug:

In high level sports competitions it's always about nature and nurture. If a person doesn't have the "right stuff" in both their genes and in their motivations they are not going to win. A person who does not have the body structure fitting a specific sport will not become a world class athlete no matter how highly motivated they are, and an unmotivated person who has a near perfect body structure for a specific sport will not become a world class athlete either.

I think it is entirely relevant how a person thinks of themselves. If a person thinks of themselves as male, lives as a male, but enters a competition as a female, then that is clearly deceptive.

If a person thinks of themselves as a female, lives as a female, and has mostly female physical attributes, then that person simply has certain physical attributes that allow them to compete as a world class athlete.

In a free society nobody is going to change their sex to compete as world class athlete, although this has probably happened in very coercive societies. It is most reasonable to accept people as they are in sports competitions, even transgender people. There can be no standard of "purity" because nature itself is not pure in the determination of sex.

As Caster Semenya says she is female, she is female. Her own experience and her own sexual identity is entirely respectable and relevant. Unless there is some deliberate deception involved, her accomplishments should stand.

Is Caster Semenya really female? Is Jamie Lee Curtis really female? In so many ways it's an insulting question to ask and a means of excluding someone from a community.

There is a tremendous prejudice against women in sports who look or act "like men." As a society do we look at women in sports as superb athletes or as sex objects? I think a lot of men are threatened by women as superb athletes, and they are uncomfortable watching women who do not look or act like Sports Illustrated swimsuit models.

[Unca Jim]

24. Am I crazy?

I thought Jamie Lee Curtis was a famous example of this, but I can't find reliable documentation.

[JonQ]

26. I'm pretty sure that's an urban legend

but even so, yes hermaphrodites do exist, but the only way to be considered biologically female (with humans) is to have at least one x, and zero ys.

It is possible to appear female and have xy, due to a genetic disorder. HOwever you are not functionally a female as you are in fact sterile.

Now, if they want to make the rules such that only people not receiving the benefit of testosterone are allowed in the womens events, that would be fine. As that's the whole point of these rules, not to exclude people with y chromosomes but to prevent males from having an unfair advantage over females (and vice-versa in sports where women have a natural advantage presumably). So that even technical males with xy, who lack the receptor for testosterone would be able to play.

[WriteDown]

35. Snopes

http://www.snopes.com/movies/actors/jamie.asp

[mbperrin]

5. Did they make the slow guys prove they're men?

Thought not. Fuckers.

[apacherose]

7. hahahaha

That, in my opinion, would be double the embarrassment that she's having to go through

[sofa king]

10. No, they just get shamelessly ridiculed.

If I remember my middle-school gym class correctly. But I did see something great come of it.

"You run like a girl," said the first kid.

"You mean the kind of girl that can kick your ass?" said the second.

[WriteDown]

28. I have my suspicions on this one...

[druidity33]

40. well...

after seeing a photo, i admit i do too. Her hips are WAY too skinny if you ask me...

:shrug:

[create.peace]

8. that pales compared to what else the guardian exposed here!!:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2009/mar/12/south-africa-corrective-rape

[hunter]

15. That happens here in the U.S. too.

:cry:

[create.peace]

16. and i can imagine the brain dead guys who would say the

same things, but i think that going public is a good idea. it should not be hidden.

spousal rape was never talked about, but is now.

[Liberal_in_LA]

34. Those are two strong women. Glad they survived that horror

[Ex Lurker]

13. but they are letting the transgendered compete now

which seems inconsistent with this policy
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/06/14/MNGNM75MUK1.DTL

[marshall]

41. Anyone watch Road Rules/Real World competition?

I've wondered where they will place the transgendered woman who was in Real World a year or two ago. In many of the competitions they separate the men from the women because of strength.

[undeterred]

19. How do her times compare to a man her age?

[Name removed]

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[DU GrovelBot]

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[Romulox]

37. If genetic gender is not determinate, then why have separate male and female events?

Seems like a double standard, somehow...

[LeftHander]

39. See what happens when you let women succeed....

rather than rape, mutilate, beat, impregnate, enslave, starve, stone and all the other sexist based customs that have transpired upon women through the eons.

Women succeed.

I an not surprised in the least at the advance in performance in Women's athletics. Nor am I surprised at the draconian manner in which we still treat women athletes.

[jsamuel]

42. they don't care what gender she is, they want to know what sex she is

gender is a cultural construct
sex is a biological one