Democrats accuse GOP of inciting mobs

[sabra]

Source: CNN

WASHINGTON (CNN) – The Democratic National Committee will amplify its charge that Republicans are responsible for “inciting angry mobs of a small number of rabid right wing extremists … to disrupt” town hall meetings in a new 65 second Web video that will release Wednesday morning.

The video shows footage of angry constituents and protestors at recent events and then flashes pictures of Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, House Minority Leader John Boehner, Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele, and even conservative talk radio icon Rush Limbaugh on the screen.

“They lost the election,” the narrator says. “They lost on the recovery act, the budget and children's health care. They've lost the confidence of the American people after eight years of failed policies that ruined our economy and cost millions of jobs. Now, desperate Republicans and their well funded allies are organizing angry mobs – just like they did during the election. Their goal? Destroy President Obama.”

The DNC issued a sharp statement Tuesday accusing Republicans and GOP allies of encouraging and coordinating the disruptive behavior at the town hall meetings.

Read more: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/08/05/democrats-accuse-gop-of-inciting-mobs/

[NJmaverick]

1. It worked well for them when they stole the election of 2000

so they have gone to their old play book. One thing we have seen exposed for all to see- The Republicans hate Democracy but love power.

[L. Coyote]

70. ... three decades apart, two political riots influenced the outcome of .. presidential elections

Bush's Conspiracy to Riot
By Robert Parry
August 5, 2009 - http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/080409d.html

Editor’s Note: As the American Right celebrates its success in disrupting “town hall” meetings where congressional Democrats try to discuss health-care reform with constituents, the ugly precedent for these hooligan tactics is the Republican-organized riot in Miami that stopped a recount in Election 2000.

What was extraordinary about the supposedly spontaneous riot on Nov. 22, 2000, was that it was -- we later learned -- organized and financed by George W. Bush’s presidential campaign, which had flown in Republican operatives to pose as outraged local residents.

Some of that was reported at the time – though downplayed – but more details emerged in summer 2002 when the Internal Revenue Service forced the Bush campaign to disclose its recount expenditures.

After release of those IRS documents, we published the following story, which contrasted how the U.S. government reacted to the definitive evidence that Bush and other top Republicans had dispatched rioters across state lines to disrupt the democratic process in 2000 against what was done to alleged riot organizers at the 1968 Democratic convention in Chicago.

The big difference, of course, was that in 1968 the alleged riot organizers were anti-war radicals who faced prosecution, when in 2000, the riot organizers went on to seize control of the U.S. government and thus escaped all punishment.

Having succeeded with the hooliganism in 2000 – and having paid no price – the Republicans and their right-wing allies appear to be following a similar script to block health-care reform now:

More than three decades apart, two political riots influenced the outcome of U.S. presidential elections.

In 1968, protests at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago hurt Democrat Hubert Humphrey and helped Republican Richard Nixon eke out a victory. On Nov. 22, 2000, the so-called “Brooks Brothers Riot” of Republican activists helped stop a vote recount in Miami -- and showed how far George W. Bush’s supporters were ready to go to put their man in the White House.

But the government reaction to the two events was dramatically different. .........

[Syntheto]

96. Reminds one of Code Pink.

[Synicus Maximus]

113. I Agree

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lorien]

207. Not surprised. nt

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[L. Coyote]

136. "one" n/t

[TerribleLarryDingle]

143. how so?

Care to elaborate or are you just spewing bullshit?

[Lorien]

205. No it does not. When did members of Code Pink physically assault anyone?

When did any of them threaten violence against a politician?

Handiwork of GOP thugs:

[karnac]

214. unfortunately our own people are the only ones

capable or documented.

First, that old lady slapping that young right wing nut in florida. ours

that (dont know age, no pic) fellow charged with assaulting a right wing nut in st louis. ours

and(undocumented) some union fellow thrashed physically another teabagger.

discounting the later, we have got to tell others to hold back their righteous anger.


At least till somebody on the other side makes the same mistake. then all is well.

[Arkana]

225. Yeah guys cause Code Pink went to Bush's "rallies" and protested

that he wasn't an American citizen too.

Oh, wait, no--they didn't.

I don't like Code Pink either, but they were at least not hiding when they did what they did.

[and-justice-for-all]

239. Well that is a crock of shit...nt

[DCKit]

123. +1 'cause that's all they allow.

and "reminds one of code pink". Really? For shame. For one thing, the pinkers don't go to places and pretend to be constituents - where RNC disruptors try to kill dialog, Code Pink tries to inform, educate and activate people.

For shame. Enjoy your stay.

[PatSeg]

78. And that is their problem

They keep using the same tactics over and over again. They seem to be incapable of learning anything new. They don't seem to realize that the public, however, does learn.

[WriteDown]

2. There is a bill to force Congress onto the plan that they are

proposing for the American people. Needless to say there is outrage. That should tell us something.

[saigon68]

131. It was A MOB in GREEN BAY the other night

Unreal, surrealistic, scary. All white faces screaming,shouting angry red faces on the TV

The only thing missing was a BLACK GUY with a ROPE AROUND HIS NECK..

[AndyA]

3. Here's a link to the ad on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtTBkxvBq88

Pretty good ad, although it encourages you to call the Republican Party to complain, and I don't think that will do any good at all. :shrug:

But, the ad does make its point.

[NJCher]

11. I called them and they hung up on me

The first thing you hear is "if you're calling about the ...ad..." so of course I didn't press that one. I waited for "constituent services" and explained to the cheery woman that I was a professor at a university in NJ and that I am teaching my students the value of public discourse. I said it was very hard to teach them this when one of the country's two major parties sends teams out to disrupt this process.

She denied it and said, "That's not us."

This went on for awhile and when I told her I didn't believe her because of their track record of doing similar actions, she hung up on me.


Cher

[Binka]

33. Typical. Deny Deny Deny, Then When Confronted With Rational Discourse...Hang Up

Jaysus Gawd my 8 year old has better manners and more appropriate critical thinking skills.

Fuck these ASS CLOWNS. Fuck them.

[peace frog]

87. You can still get through.... here's how:

If you call the number listed in the ad: 202-863-8500 the message suggests "Please press 1 if you are calling in response to DNC ad" and then you are eventually dismissed or hung up on. Callers need to call and press option "2" to keep from being dismissed.

http://www.americablog.com/2009/08/rnc-is-dumping-anyone-who-calls-about.html

[guruoo]

44. They needed to stick to footage of the townhall disruptions, IMO.

[liberal N proud]

4. Glad someone is making waves about this

[SkyDaddy7]

5. FINALLY...Signs of fighting back!!

They need to continue this and get more agressive!

[Liberalynn]

6. Great ad

Hope the Dems keep fighting back and getting the truth out there.:dem:

[Beetwasher]

7. Here Come The Big Guns!

n/t

[pattmarty]

8. Call them what they are, "brownshirts". We definitely cannot take this.........

..............shit. I have to say one thing about these motherfuckers, they ARE organized.

[elleng]

73. 'Brownshirts' won't mean much to many.

Make it clear: By disrupting 'town hall' meetings and such, they are trying to and sometimes succeeding in preventing us from learning about and discussing what our elected representatives are thinking and doing concerning a most important matter, that is, health care.

[Fire1]

89. On point but waaay too long for them. You know,

comprehension is not their strong suit. Keep it short and simple.:hi:

[elleng]

I agree!

I wasn't in 'edit' mode at the time!

[quiet.american]

9. CNN couldn't be bothered to mention FreedomWorks' et al. involvement.

Simply framing this article as a Democratic "j'accuse," leaves out ample evidence that these mobs are being manufactured by Republican operatives.

[Purveyor]

10. Thank you for posting. K&R - I hope this ad makes it to network TV soon! eom

[JonQ]

12. Hmm, identifiying non-violent protestors

as "angry mobs" and extremists.

Nope, not ok with that.

Imagine it's 2007, and the GOP tries to identify all who protest against bush as angry mobs, and rabid leftwing extremists, and attempted to to blame the democrats for encouraging such acts of domestic terrorism.

Protestors, even obnoxious ones, have their rights too. That goes both ways, once you start liming the freedom of speech of your opponents you have limited your own when the government swings back the other direction.

[KTinaY2008]

13. Correct me if I am wrong

but I thought in at least 1 of these rallies elected officials had to have police escort them out because of how threatening the mob was getting.

[JonQ]

15. At no point do they mention inciting violence

Merely being "disruptive".

"The DNC issued a sharp statement Tuesday accusing Republicans and GOP allies of encouraging and coordinating the disruptive behavior at the town hall meetings."

Sorry, but that doesn't cut it. The whole point of protesting is to be disruptive, you don't do it to be ignored and have no impact.

[SemperEadem]

29. Disorderly conduct--that 's an arrestable offense

seems to me that the police need to be there to cart out these criminals.

[WriteDown]

47. Yep....Just like Gates.

Good point.

[Dark]

187. Someone was assaulted.

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/05/freshman-dem-assaulted/

As lobbyist-run groups encourage conservative activists to “rattle” members of Congress at local town hall events, Rep. Gerry Connolly (D-VA), the president of the freshman Democratic class has revealed that “at least one freshman Democrat” has already been “physically assaulted at a local event.” Connolly warned that conservative groups had taken things to a “dangerous level“:

[Malikshah]

14. False equivalence. Trying to destroy health care reform with manufactured

mobs, killing the democractic process with a Brooksbrothers riot is NOT the same thing as protesting against an illegal war, torture, and the decimation of the country.

Furthermore-- it might do you good to read instructions given by various Progressive groups when advising folks during protests and the like.

Much much different than the Goebbels tactics used by the groups against health care reform.

Enough with the false equivalency We're smarter than that. NOT THIS TIME

[JonQ]

17. For some reason it's always facist/communist

when the other side does it, patriotic and just when your side does it.

I'm in favor of equal rights for all, not selective rights for people with similiar politics.

The first amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Unless of course you don't like what they have to say, then just classify them as terrorists and haul them off to gitmo. Also, unpopular or unpleasant speech is banned. And no protesting against health care reform, that is not open for discussion.

Really it only applies between 2001-2008, and only regarding wars and torture (and only against). After that it looses all meaning.

[Malikshah]

64. As I said below-- the argument you make is specious at best.

This "purity" of constitutionalism would be laudable if it were not so clearly being used to obfuscate.

One should use one's efforts toward a higher task. A thorough study of the two examples used in the false equivalency gambit would be a good start. BTW, it is loses, not looses. (Pet peeve of mine based on a regular mistake by my students)

[twitomy]

32. So who made you the arbiter of what is acceptable

protest and what is not?.

"Free Speech for Me, None for Thee"

[Malikshah]

61. Not trying to be the arbiter. But I'll be damned if one is going to to equate the

two. It's a specious argument and unbecoming of intelligent discourse.

In other words, the tried and true action of those who wish to obfuscate.

[WriteDown]

If it was healthcare reform...

And not the Big Healthcare Insurance Heist of 2009 then I might be concerned.

[twitomy]

16. I agree..They are only using the same tactics

the Left uses. Shall I show youtube links of left groups being disruptive? Yep they are organized. And whats wrong with that? Its a free country. If the health care industry is behind this, once again..its a free country. The Left organizes as well:Code Pink,A.N.S.W.E.R.,Veterans For Peace, MoveOn.Org, et etc...Aint America Great! Afterall isnt "Dissent the Highest Form of Patriotism?"

Let them rant, people can see right thru them. They are protesting that this plan will kill private insurance...GOOD!

[JonQ]

18. Thank you

I was getting discouraged by the fairly fascist leanings so on here seem to show.

If rights only mean something to you when they benefit people you like, then well, they don't really mean anything to you at all.

Like saying you're an honest person, when it suits you to tell the truth. Well no, then you aren't honest at all.

Dissent was the highest form of patriotism for some between the years of 2001 and 2008. After that it became treason.

[twitomy]

19. Your Welcom, I was begining to think I was the only one here that

was thinking the same way...:fistbump:

[tomhayes]

26. Bullshit

>Dissent was the highest form of patriotism for some between the years of 2001 and 2008. After that it became treason.

Protesting is okay. Standing outside and chanting their jingoistic and dishonest slogan is okay. Having a picture of a tombstone and the name of a congressman on it is less okay. Burning effigies is less okay.

But chanting and stopping other people from talking *in a public townhall* is not a protest - it's a deliberate anti-democrat tactic to stop all debate - and it's NOT okay.

Stopping debate does NOT equal democratic protests. It's the furthest thing from it.

They can dissent - but using tactics that *only* aim at rattling speakers and stopping other citizens from having discourse is Un-American.

If they want to participate in a debate (even a spirited or contentious debate) fine - but having a group of 20 people yell the Pledge of Allegiance as loud as they can is *NOT OKAY.*

The tactics are the differnce here. (Code Pink has the decency to get arrrested each time at least.)

If you can't spot the difference there's something inherently wrong in your heart (or brain.)

[pattmarty]

31. Here, here!!!!!!!!!

[twitomy]

35. "Public Town Hall"?

Puleeze These so-called Town Hall meetings are nothing more than PR stunts for the politicans who
want their ass kissed by us common people. These meetings are not parlimentary functions
of democracy. Interupting Congress or hearing is a true interuption of the democratic functions.
Crashing these worship-your-politican meetings are not.

[tomhayes]

37. I think we get where your coming from

And it's called Anti-Democratic Crazy town.

Talking to politicans = WORSHIPPING them?
Disrupting debate = Debating ? You are nuts.

[Hansel]

104. Doesn't matter if they are PR Stunts.

They are a place for people to go and voice their opinions and whether or not you think it is true democracy is irrelevant. Acting like a mob and intimidating others from exercising their freedom of speech is inappropriate, and threatening others at the meetings to prevent them from doing so is illegal.

[JonQ]

38. Please. For every instance of this

I could cite a number of protestors from the last 8 years who did the same thing. Campus speakers with a right slant are routinely shouted down by the left. I wouldn't tolerate republicans trying to brand all protesters as being extremists mobs egged on by the democrats. So I don't tolerate this move.

"They can dissent - but using tactics that *only* aim at rattling speakers and stopping other citizens from having discourse is Un-American."

I assume then any protestors that say, insinuate our current president should be assassinated would fall under that category? Or disrupting any sort of meeting where they are not welcome? They are all extremists mobs connected to some high seated authority? Some people seem to quickly forget the last 8 years.

2007: left: these protesters are patriotic and are only using their freedom of speech!
right: no they are terrorists out to disrupt government through anti-democratic methods!
2009: left: no they are terrorists out to disrupt government through anti-democratic methods!
right: these protesters are patriotic and are only using their freedom of speech!

How soon we forget.

[tomhayes]

43. False equivalency is your fallacy

In 2007 it was delusional. No one was interrupting Bush town halls. Maybe it was because you had to sign a loyalty oath to get in? And no one was trying to stop DEBATE. Most of the protesters were trying to INTRODUCE debate.

In 2009 the right-wing groups send out letters instructing "protesters" how to stop debate and telling them to "not have an intellectual debate, stand up, yell, disrupt and sit down."

(And if at some universities the students yell down a paid political speaker I’m fine with it. It's bad form - and the students should be escorted out, and the speaker allowed to continue. Stopping a meeting of constituents and their currently elected representative is much, much worse in my book.)

As for Coulter getting a pie in the face - that was wrong too.

But throw a pie at Coulter is not an organized movement by the Democratic Party. Or Move-on. Or Acorn.

If you think that the protest in the past are equal to this corporate funded organized attempt to STOP DEBATE then you are either willfully ignorant - or belligerently so.

Show me one example of an national, organized attempt by the Democrats to stop and stifle debate??

[JonQ]

50. People seem really upset by the whole "organized thing"

which is a claim, yet to be proven.

What about the fact that all leftwing protests in 2007 were organized, funded and carried out by the illuminati? Scary huh?

UNC-Chapel Hill, wasn't exactly peaceful, and they shut down that speaker.

What about the WTO? Or various protests interfering with troop deployments?

Or cindy sheehan interrupting official congressional meetings (and others).

Saying they are different because they weren't planned by the GOP, when it hasn't been proven these were planned by the GOP is a bit of a misnomer.

[tomhayes]

59. Yeah - it's just innocent, angry patriots

USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!

JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO! JUST SAY NO!

I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL! I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL! I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL! I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL! I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL!

[guruoo]

65. The freedomworks memo proves organization, GOP lends it's tacit approval by

it's failure to publicly condemn the operation.

[yellowcanine]

66. Town hall meetings are intended to allow members of congress to communicate with constituents.

Yes, I do have a problem if groups organize for the sole purpose of preventing that from happening. That is not democracy. Left wing or right wing that is thuggery.

[frylock]

75. try and bring yourself up to speed..

As Rachel Slajda reported earlier this afternoon, there seems to be a growing incidence of members of Congress being shouted down at town hall events by tea party protestors. Those tactics will likely become much more common. As Think Progress first reported, one tea-party friendly group has disseminated a strategy memo for other anti-reform and anti-government groups, outlining what they consider best-practices for protesters who plan to enter and disrupt town hall events hosted by members of Congress over the August recess--practices that, according to the memo, "could be useful to activists in just about any district where their Congressperson has supported the socialist agenda of the Democrat leadership in Washington."

The memo, authored by Robert MacGuffie, who runs the website rightprinciples.com, suggests that tea partiers should "pack the hall... spread out" to make their numbers seem more significant, and to "rock-the-boat early in the Rep's presentation...to yell out and challenge the Rep's statements early.... to rattle him, get him off his prepared script and agenda...stand up and shout and sit right back down."

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/tea-party-town-hall-strategy-rattle-them-stand-up-and-shout.php

[TankLV]

172. It's already a FACT - THERE IS A MEMO - IT'S ORGANIZED BY THE REPUKE LEADERSHIP!!!

but since you're ONE OF THEM, of course you come here to spew BULLSHIT!!!

we know WHO and WHAT you are - and it AIN'T WORKING...

[lib_wit_it]

42. Quite right--it's not just a disruption of the meeting, It's a shutting down of the opportunity for

other opinions to be voiced. This is unacceptable. As I said before, Crowley should arrest them. After all, they're yelling. ; )

[provis99]

83. good response.

If public protest gets to the point where an elected official has to be protectively escorted by police, it is protest that goes beyond the bounds.

[dschis]

126. wait a minute

wasn't there more than a couple of people escorted out of buildings for voiced their opinions during that time. As a former and reformed Republican I can remember that stuff. I've talked to more tan two three Repubs that are really racist and who said that a dictatorship wouldn't be bad

[Hansel]

98. Fascism

a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism , regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

I don't think that people disagreeing with your viewpoint are leaning toward fascism. Forcibly suppressing opposition is pretty much what these mobs are doing. No one is saying they can't have a voice. We are saying they can't stop us from having one. This is a lot different than your interpretation of the concerns.

[twitomy]

117. Well then by your own definition these teabaggers

cannot be fascists as they are not part of "a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power.." In fact they are giving hell TO the representatives of the governmental system.

BTW, Communists also fit the same definition. Almost the same thing.

[TankLV]

173. THEY ARE PART OF THE REPUKE PARTY OPERATION!!!

hence THE definition of FACISM...

[JonQ]

142. I didn't say they were fascists

I said they had fascist leanings, not exactly the same thing.

Being in favor of using the police to suppress dissent does not make one a fascist, but it does put one more in their camp than with say, people that like freedom.

[Arkana]

227. Oh, I quite agree.

We should try to engage these people in rational discourse! Their questions are clearly valid!

Insightful questions such as "BLAARARHGGHHG WHY WON'T OBAMA RELEASE HIS BIRF CERTIFICATE" and "WHY DOES OBAMA WANT TO EUTHANIZE OLD PEOPLE" are just hard-hitting inquiries from the PEOPLE of this great country, dammit!

[frylock]

74. go ahead and post those vids..

show us how those left groups that are being disruptive are also being removed and/or arrested. if that's what you're advocating, then i'm all for it.

[yellowcanine]

21. Freedom of speech does not include preventing others from speaking/being heard.

And that is what some of these groups are doing. Doesn't matter whether it is the left wing or the right wing doing it - Members of congress have the right to hold town hall meetings with their constituents without being shouted down by organized mobs.

[JonQ]

22. Did you have the same reaction when leftwing groups

do the exact same thing? Shouting down speakers, throwing pies, blocking traffic, interrupting meetings and so on? Do the majority of people commenting on this thread have the same reactions?

[yellowcanine]

23. I don't know about the majority of people here but yes, I object to either the left or right doing

this and I have edited my post to reflect that. One's person's freedom of speech ends when they attempt to suppress another person's freedom to speak.

[JonQ]

34. That's good news

but I think most people here lack your consistency.

[yellowcanine]

46. The fact that some or even most might not understand the concept of free speech

or apply it correctly does not change the fact that my free speech right must not be used to limit another person's same right. The framers knew that the majority often fails to protect minority rights. That is why they included the Bill of Rights in the Constitution.

[JonQ]

53. But this was a public space

perhaps they should have designated free speech zones several blocks away?

[yellowcanine]

58. No - they have the right to be there and to ask their questions. They do not have the right to take

over/disrupt the meeting so that others cannot express their views or ask their questions. Whether the anger is real or ginned up is immaterial. Even angry people need to respect the rights of others.

[guruoo]

55. I did, and

caught hell for it, too.

[JonQ]

92. Not surprising.

[Ikonoklast]

81. And those people got ARRESTED.

Your right to Free Speech ends when you deny me my right to peacefully assemble, and exercise MY right to free speech.

But, keep apologizing for the "protestors'. I guess you won't be happy until someone gets hurt.

[Hansel]

100. Pretty much. Yes.

[TankLV]

174. Really? CITE EXAMPLES when this happened...!!!

WE were corralled into "free speech zones" and were MILES from any repuke meetings...

nice try - FAIL!!!

[twitomy]

24. You mean like when Right Wingers who make speeches

on Campuses whom are routinely shouted down?

Actually, Although I do not agree with these protesters, as I feel private insurance companies are blood suckers, as a person who generally detests politicians I take a visceral delight in seeing people chew them out. Especially what happened to that weasel Specter.

[yellowcanine]

27. Yep. That too. Has no place in a town hall meeting or on a college campus.

But on the other hand, if there is a time for questions, those who disagree with the speaker have every right to ask a question as long as they stick to whatever the ground rules are. For example, ask questions as opposed to making speeches, etc. If they want to make speeches, they should get their own soapbox and do it.

[notadmblnd]

25. These aren't just obnoxious protestors

this is an organized effort by republicans to disrupt town halls. There are even menos out there proving it. These people have been allowed to attend and speak and express their faux outrage. Unlike the last administrations events' and meetings were people with apposing views weren't even allowed to attend. I recall in the last eight years seeing people who spoke up at republican events escorted out. I did not see that happen with any of these town hall events.

[twitomy]

28. Faux outrage?

Peaceful disruptions are the hallmark of non-violent protest is it not? These people seem truly pissed to me, so I dont get the "Faux Outrage". They are only protesting in their own self(ish)-interest. I mean, isnt that what people should do? Often here is read the lamentations
of knowing people vote for Repubs "against their own interests" These people like things the way they are and want to keep it that way. I think they are wrong, but I'm not going persecute them. Thats kinda un-American.

[notadmblnd]

30. yes, it is false outrage

What would you call it when republicans organize a group of people and send them in to disrupt. These aren't spontaneous incidences. They are planned and organized by republican groups for the express purpose of disrupting. If they were spontaneous, it would be a different case. However, there are memos that have been leaked proving these operatives have been sent in. I call that faux outrage. What would you call it? They aren't protesting in their own selfish interest, they are protesting on behalf of right wing groups and corporate interests. I agree, their anger is real, these are people that delight in expressing anger. They live their lives angry. I just wonder how much they're getting paid by these groups to attend and express it.

[twitomy]

36. As I said, just because they are organized

doesnt make them illegitimate. Besides, who said they were "spontaneous"? As for people who live their lives full of anger, just peruse the threads here and youll find plenty of them on this side of the aisle as well.

[notadmblnd]

62. You haven't read the memos, right?

Of course there are angry people here, the question is; have they been sent here by a sponsor to express it? Have they disrupted meetings or behalf of their political or corporate sponsors? Have they disrupted to the point that no one else can exercise their rights?

Why aren't you concerned about all the other people there who's rights to express themselves in a reasonable manner were denied because this sponsored group wouldn't quiet down long enough to allow it?

[JonQ]

141. The memos sent out by the DNC?

Not exactly unbiased evidence there.

[notadmblnd]

146. no, the memo put out by the GOP backed group that they work for.

do yourself a favor and watch an episode of Keith Olberman or Racheal Maddow on MSNBC. Both of them covered the story Wednesday night and they did name names. With a little effort you can find these episode on the internets.

[JonQ]

148. "GOP backed group"

In the same sense that ANSWER, and moveon, and various others are democrat backed?

[notadmblnd]

150. Name the former politicians that founded or support MoveOn or Answer

when you can do that, then maybe I'll agree that they are one in the same. However, I don't think that you will find that is the case.

[U4ikLefty]

156. ....and crickets. n/t

[notadmblnd]

157. Now Now... let's give him the benefit of the doubt. I did give him a couple of assignmnets

maybe he's deep in the internets sliding the tubes and doing the google trying to find something. I'm pretty confident that he'll have no response though.


What the hell am I talking about..... we all know the only place repukes get their information is from Fox news. I'll never get an answer to that post.

[JonQ]

164. And crickets

you've had almost 5 minutes and no response. Clearly you know you are wrong.

:eyes:

[JonQ]

160. You didn't name any groups that are supposedly

fronts for the GOP, as declared by the DNC (definitely no politics there). So how do you know that these groups (it's the illuminati isn't it?) are made up of former republicans?

So really you're drawing a false equivalence.

Now moveon and ANSWER are definitely leftwing groups, that move alot of funds to the DNC every election. So I don't think it would be a stretch to say they are tied together.

[notadmblnd]

170. That's why I told you to go watch last nights Racheal Maddow's show

the name of the organization and the politicians were all named by her. Now, you are the one saying that it isn't true that these people are being organized and encouraged by corporations and former politicians. It is up to you to prove your assertions. I've provided you with enough information that would allow you to get on the Internets and look this stuff up yourself. You told me moveon and answer are backed by former politicians and corporations, yet you haven't given me any credible information that would allow me to follow up and see the proof myself. The one link you did provide was not credible and it linked to another site. I want you to provide proof from the mainstream media, fox news should have something don't you think?

[JonQ]

182. It's up to me to prove there is no connection between the two?

It isn't up to you to prove there is?
That's backwards.

You sir are working for the GOP right now, in an attempt to discredit the left. It is true, go watch tv to find out why.

Now it is up to you to disprove it. Otherwise you must accept my premise.

[notadmblnd]

185. You did a fine job of twisting that around madam.

You asserted they were one in the same. It is up to you to prove that they are.

I've been a poster here for a very long time. If I were a freeper, don't you think I would have outed myself by now? Madam, I think you are projecting.

[JonQ]

189. You are a very good undercover agent

I'll give you that. But all the evidence (I've seen it, can't be bothered to post it here or even describe it) proves that you are a freeper.

It is now entirely on you to prove that you aren't, to my satisfaction, and I won't count any evidence you present as legitimate, otherwise you must admit that I am right.

That is only fair.

[notadmblnd]

190. you are too funny madam

:rofl:

[JonQ]

193. Oh hey,

organizing for america, or barakobama.com has asked people to show up to counter the protests. Would that count as protests being organized from the very top?

Also the AFL has agreed to show up to counter them, would that count as a democrat backed organization?

I'm sure you're ok with this, but denounce the republican led and backed protests. Interesting.

[notadmblnd]

195. Are they encouraging and inciting violence?

[JonQ]

197. Was any group mentioned in this thread?

Straw man.

[notadmblnd]

200. Yes, this entire thread has been about these corporate and gop sponsored groups

disrupting and attempting to incite violence at these meetings. Please try to keep up.

[JonQ]

203. I see the problem

you didn't read the OP.

I'll give you a moment, go find where it actually references violence.

[notadmblnd]

204. heheheh

:rofl: title of thread "Democrats accuse GOP of inciting mobs"

[JonQ]

206. That's about what I thought

safe to say you're out of your element here, just arguing for the sake of arguing.

[notadmblnd]

209. you are the only one keeping this going

you are the only one advocating for the rights of those that would commit criminal acts. Your other supporter dropped out of the conversation yesterday. Everyone appears to have moved on but you and me and this conversation has diminished into a pissing contest. you being male, I'm sure you an piss farther, so I'll let you go back to your mother's basement and work yourself up over another issue or clean your guns. What ever it is your type does when they're not looking for something to argue about.

[JonQ]

210. Right, it's a pissing contest

not about the facts or anything.

You claim they are criminals, what crimes have they committed? You claim they are violent, what acts of violence have they committed? You claim they are being led from the very top of the GOP, by whom?

Nevermind, apparently asking for evidence is chauvinist in your mind.

[notadmblnd]

213. I've provided you with fats, you refuse to look at them

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here in regards to your reading comprehension abilities.

So, I present for your ridicule with thanks to babylonsister Donating Member
Original message. maybe this will give you some idea what this is about.


Republican Mob Rule: I Was There at the Birth

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/23183

Republican Mob Rule: I Was There at the Birth
by Stephen Pizzo | August 7, 2009 - 11:18am


I was there when it began, the ugliness, the ever-so thinly-veiled racism, the attacks on the press.

It was August, 1992. The place, the Houston Astrodome. The occasion, the Republican nominating convention.

snip//

On the floor were squads of young men and women, many in their teens, dressed in red, white and blue straw hates, red vests, white shirts and black pants. I assumed they were some kind of Republican youth group, the kids of GOP officials, or both. To say they were squeaky clean-cut would be an understatement. They looked like they'd just been bused in from the Salt Lake City Mormon temple.

I only mention this because of what those clean-cut kids were up to. After each particularly fiery speech they would march in mass to the foot of the press gallery wall and begin chanting, "Be fair, be fair, be fair."

American reporters laughed it off as a childish bit of political theater. Our European colleagues were not laughing. They looked worried, especially those from Germany, Austria and France.

snip//

I got a permission slip for the floor just as Pat Buchanan began his speech. It was the first shot in what would become known as "the culture war." The crowd clearly would have preferred him over the guy who was actually going to get nominated. They roared their approval to every one of Buchanan's now disturbingly familiar xenophobic, homophobic, racist thrusts. I could feel the energy level on the floor hit a kind of psychic redline. And that's when I saw them -- scattered through the crowd, not a majority, but more than a few, right-arm raised, hand flat, palm down, the Nazi salute. There was no mistaking it for anything but what it was.

And I saw no one try to stop them. I heard no one admonish them.

(Molly Ivins later observed of Buchanan's speech, "It was better in the original German.")

snip//

Over the years that followed I was not surprise to see the seeds of hatred, paranoia, xenophobia and racism, cultivated and nurtured by those empowered by that convention; Tom Delay, Newt Gingrich, Michelle Bachmann, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush, Karl Rove, Sarah Palin, et al.

So, when I see clips of GOP brownshirts disrupting town hall meetings I figure among them might just be some of those squeaky clean GOP youth that serenaded me and other working reporters with the ironic chant, "Be fair, be fair." Because, had we been truly fair back then, maybe the nation could have been forewarned, and forearmed. But we, the media, were not fair. We pulled our punches. We were too timid to tell the truth about everything we saw, we heard and we knew about what was happening inside the Republican party. Had we reported all that, they would have accused us of being unfair. The media knew that, and blinked. We put on our blinders and let it go, unreported. Because we wanted to be seen as being "fair," while not being balanced.

And the media learned nothing since. Because, if it had it would be reporting, not just that groups of conservatives were disrupting town hall meetings, but exactly who was orchestrating those fake "grassroots" protests. But if you want to learn about that, you can't turn to CNN or NBC or CBS or ABC... you have to turn to comics, Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert or activist news shows like MSNBC's Countdown and Rachel Maddow. Kudos to them, but they are too easily dismissed as biased.

The decline of civil discord and honest political discord declined steadily after that 1992 convention. And, unless the regular working press starts doing their jobs, it's headed further south - which is a terrifying prospect.

So, please, media, be fair... for real this time.
A nation that does not take care of its veterans has got no business whatsoever making new ones." Stacy Bannerman

[JonQ]

216. Surely you know the difference between an editorial on a blog

(smirkingchimp.com nice, their objectivity is certainly beyond question) and a legit news piece based on facts, collected evidence, and not merely opinion right?

You can quote as many editorials you like that agree with what you want to believe. That doesn't make it true. Especially since I could quote as many editorials back at you saying the opposite is happening, or about how fascist the left is. That doesn't make those statements true either.

Try harder dear, you can do better than this.

[notadmblnd]

218. Oh, go oil your gun.

[JonQ]

219. Don't own any

nor do they have anything to do with this discussion.

You seem upset that I asked you to prove your accusations with facts, rather than quoting other peoples opinions.

We should explore that . . .

[notadmblnd]

221. Who knew? A rednek psychoanalyst that lives in a trailor park and drinks red whit and blue beer.

FreedomWorks VP Refuses To Try To ‘Calm Down’ Angry Protesters At Health Care Town Hall Meetings


FreedomWorks, an industry-backed right-wing group led by former GOP congressman Dick Armey, has been heavily engaged in organizing conservatives to ambush Democratic members of Congress supporting health care reform at town halls across the country during the August recess. Its “astroturf” campaign is designed to present the appearance of wide-spread public discontent with health care reform, but the reality is that the town halls have become forums for disruption, extremism and even violence.

Last night on MSNBC, FreedomWorks Vice President Max Pappas boasted about flooding congresspeople’s town hall meetings and “blowing them apart.” “We have about 400,000 on-line members who we can contact with an e-mail database that we have, send them information about when the town halls are, give them briefings on the health care reform plans,” he said.

Pappas was on C-SPAN this morning, and a Republican veteran called in and asked Pappas to “to tell these people to wrap it down.” “We Republicans already have the image of being owned by corporate America. Now we’re getting the image of being owned by wild red-neck America,” the caller complained. But Pappas refused his request, claiming he doesn’t “have the power” to calm down his troops:

PAPPAS: We don’t have the power to control how many people turn out or how they behave there. All we really do is facilitate their participation by letting people know when these town halls are and giving them information about the issues that are going to be discussed The passions are so deep about this issue that we can’t send out an email that says “calm down.”

Another caller who claimed to be from the Council of Conservative Citizens (CCC) — a group that claims the U.S. is a European country and was founded by a “longtime white-power activist” — praised Pappas. “I want to salute you, you’re a true patriot,” he told Pappas, who later urged the CCC member to join FreedomWorks. “f the caller wants to join FreedomWorks, it’s free. You can sign up on our website and we’ll keep you up to dated on what’s going on on Capitol Hill,” he said. Watch it:

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/07/freedomworks-cspan /

I know this links to thinkprogress, a biased, editorial, lowly blog in your book. However, if you go to CSPAN and watch Washington Journal from this morning you can get the evidence from the horses mouth.

[Name removed]

222. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[notadmblnd]

223. From the mouth of one of the founding fathers of the religious right and author Frank Shaeffer

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x350158
and more proof below
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x350183


So predictable, you are.

[JonQ]

224. You aren't rachel maddow by any chance are you?

You seem to be plugging her editorials as the unfiltered word of god, that's all.

Worship much?

[notadmblnd]

226. Are you Pat Buchanan?

[JonQ]

233. Nope

nor have I attempted to put forth his opinions of facts, in absence of any other evidence.

See the difference between the two accusations?

[notadmblnd]

228. No more than you worshiping Fox News

[JonQ]

234. OK, find where I have

put forward fox new editorials as facts, the same way you have done with rachels. Then your statement would make sense.

As is. . .

[JonQ]

202. If you would read the original post

you would find that they've only been accused of being "disruptive", not inciting violence. So claiming these new protesters are different because they aren't inciting violence is a straw man argument, just in case that wasn't clear.

Like saying "will they likewise be killing puppies and spitting on orphans?"

[notadmblnd]

192. Madam,

I've heard that it takes one to know one. So I guess you'd be the authority on the matter. :rofl:

[JonQ]

196. I'm curious

what's with the madam thing?

Are you assuming that calling me a woman is enough of an insult to get me to stop arguing?

Is it safe to assume you are a sexist then?

[notadmblnd]

198. No more of an insult than you calling me sir

I figured that if you were too lazy to look at my profile to determine how to address me, then I would address you in the same manner.

[JonQ]

199. well that certainly isn't weird or anything

[notadmblnd]

201. not in your world, I guess.

:shrug: Cause you're all for reasonable, civilized discourse. That is, when your not advocating for those that incite violence and demanding that their rights be respected.

[TankLV]

175. ANSWER and MoveON are NOT in any way shape or form democrat backed...

at least we now know WHAT you are...

[JonQ]

184. Ooo , scary

I guess I failed the idealogical purity test. In that I can see the faults of both sides. I must be a traitor, perhaps some time in a reeducation camp would be necessary to restore my faith in the ruling party.

:eyes:

Quick question: where do you think most of the support (ie money) from those groups went in 2008? McCain?

I've seen the NRA called a republican propaganda arm because they generally agree on many issues, their voters tend to go republican, and their money definitely does.

But ANSWER and moveon, which do the exact same thing but with democrats, are completely independent, non-political and unbiased interest groups.

Why the double standard?

[notadmblnd]

194. I dind't say they were non biased or non political

I asked you to name the former democratic politicians that founded or support those groups. obviously you couldn't, hence the twisted logic in your posts

I find that your concern for the rights of GOP and corporate sponsored disruptors who who are advocating, encouraging and inciting violence at these meetings, is more important to you than the rights of those who attend and discuss the issue in a civil manner, to be disturbing tho say the least.

[Name removed]

211. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[notadmblnd]

212. You fool.... I've told you repeatedly where to find the information you claim

I haven't provided. I will tell you again, one more time. WATCH THE RACHAEL MADDOW SHOW ON MSNBC!!!!! This past week she has named names of the corporate and GOP sponsors of these groups. That is where your proof lies. But I guess you'd rather live in denial.

What's that famous hick saying? "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink?"

[JonQ]

215. Oooh, condescension

I love it. Anyone who disagrees with you must be an ignorant hick.

Good thing you're open-minded and willing to accept opposing viewpoints, unlike those republicans who just know they are right and refuse to listen to anyone else.

And Rachel Maddow is a political commentator dear. You could just as easily say "listen to rush limbaugh for proof that dems are evil, he lays it all for you". Even putting it in all caps, and bold, and following it with "!!!!!!!!" won't make that any objective or true.

So again: proof. Not an editorial, but proof.

You won't find any, that's ok. And you won't admit that you were wrong, also ok. We'll just have a silent agreement where I won't call you out on it and will let you slink away without ever acknowledging that you were wrong. ;-)

[notadmblnd]

217. Oh so you're a fan of Rush?

well, good luck with that.

[JonQ]

220. Nope

nor did I say I was.

You seem to be a fan of unsupported accusations.

Why is that? Did mommy and daddy never explain the difference between facst/opinions to you? Was an ex a scientist or something, always logical and factual and that drove you nuts?

I think if we can get to the root of your hatred of evidence and reality we can finally address this issue.

[TankLV]

231. Equating the TRUTH and FACTS of Rachel with the LIES of Limpballs?!!!

now we REALLY know WHAT you are...

you're fooling noone...

[JonQ]

235. Hmm, opinions are opinions

regardless of how much you like the person saying them.

Stating that an opinion is a fact because you really like what it has to say only "proves" that you are a biased partisan not interested in the truth.

So yeah, repeating an editorial over and over again, stating that it must be true because you like what they had to say, does not make it true. Any more than wishing or praying will make something come true.

I'm interested in facts, opinions have their place, but not in this conversation.

[TankLV]

229. Yes - YOU FAIL - big time...

you are SO transparent...

[TankLV]

230. The REPUKE PARTY DIRECTLY FRONTS AND FUNDS THESE TEA BAGGING THUGS

NO Democrat does to MoveOn or Answer, etc. NONE.

FORMER REPUKE DIRECTORS AND OFFICIALS HAVE BEEN FOUND TO BE DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THESE BROWNSHIRTS!!!!

It not in any way shape or form even REMOTELY similar.

But go ahead and continue to be DELIBERATLY IGNORANT in spite of countless evidence...

go back to your REPUKE OFFICE.

[JonQ]

236. Oh well, all caps certainly takes the place of evidence

As everyone on the internet knows, once one person states an opinion in ALL CAPS, then it is true and can no longer be discussed.

Like for instance "TANKLV MURDERS PUPPIES AND KITTENS"

Go ahead and DENY it, and SHOW how TRANSPARENT you are.

CONTINUE being DELIBERATELY ignorant IN spite OF countless EVIDENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111

go BACK to MURDERING puppies you sicko.

[JonQ]

41. And all leftwing protests are unplanned

spontaneous, and have no interest in rocking the boat at all?

Really, so there aren't left wing groups with political connections that plan, coordinate and carry out protests all the time against political opponents?

I would think so called progressives would be the last people to favor stamping out disruptive, planned protests as that is a tactic most often employed by the progressive movement. Any who would do that would be shooting himself in the foot.

[notadmblnd]

48. I have seen code pink escorted out when they've disrupted

I have seen other people who have spoken out escorted out of republican events. I have seen people be turned away whose only crime was having a bumper sticker on their car. As I said before, If these were spontaneous, it would be a different thing. They can protest with their signs all they want outside of the event. I have never defended code pink or any other group when they've disrupted and u can do a search of my posts and check for that. And as far as I know there is no Democratic or corporate organization supporting, organizing or encouraging those groups. Big difference.

[JonQ]

51. Did you also see official republican statements issued afterwards

labeling all protesters as extremists and mobs?

[notadmblnd]

56. I've heard code pink refered to as extremists

also Cindy, I can't remember her last name. She used to camp outside of the pig ranch down in Crawford. Many times, I heard msm refre to her as a wacked out nut.

[JonQ]

57. You heard?

As in an official statement by the GOP?

Otherwise it isn't really comparable.

[twitomy]

49. You shouldnt be so consistent...

That dangerous in the world of politics these days...

[yellowcanine]

52. You see no value in protecting the right of a congress person to hold a town hall

discussion that allows everyone to ask their questions and relay their concerns in an orderly way? How else is representative democracy supposed to work? Left/right - no one has the right to disrupt the democratic process in such a way that orderly elections cannot be held or in a way that keeps representatives from discussing issues with their constituents. Decisions in a democracy are made according to who can command the most votes, not who can shout the loudest.

[JonQ]

54. I am enjoying the hypocrisy

on here when leftwing politicians are interrupted it's a terrible crime against democracy, no one has that right and they should all be arrested. When rightwing politicians are interrupted it's the people speaking their minds and is a sacrosanct right and if they're arrested it's a sign of growing fascism.

I imagine on free republic they have the same notion, just flipped.

[yellowcanine]

60. Show me where I made such a statement. Stop putting everyone in the same box.

[guruoo]

69. Who's hypocracy? Theirs, or yours?

So it's ok to disrupt,
but it's not ok to disrupt the disruptions?

:rofl:

[JonQ]

108. Not sure what you're talking about

so I'll just keep moving.

[Paladin]

154. But You're Not Sure About Frei Republik, Are You?

Because your enjoyment and criticism of supposed hypocrisy is confined to left-wing groups and sites, now isn't it? Enjoy whatever time you have remaining here at DU......

[fascisthunter]

167. you know about free reublikkk?

no kidding?

[TankLV]

176. the only hypocrisy and IGNORANCE is coming from YOU...

you are fooling NO ONE...

[TankLV]

177. free republic ???

BUSTED...

enjoy your pizza...

[Igel]

63. I've seen protests.

Apparently also false outrage, to use another poster's description.

By Any Means Necessary organized some. ANSWER organized others. When I was in student government I actually met organizers from off campus, who were paid, whose job was to help organize groups and help them to plan ways to be more effective, to get their message out. One way was protests.

Yes, they shouted down those they disagreed with. They blocked entrances. They had banners and posters. They staged sit-ins at very key intersections at rush hour. They were hauled away to applause, to having 99% of the self-described "progressives" cheer on their civil disobedience.

They thought of their planned, organized, posters-distributed protests as spontaneous, grass-roots. By most definitions here, they were high-quality astro-turf and nothing more. MoveOn, BAMN, ANSWER, CodePink ... are all meaningless groups of thugs.

But then again, they're on "our" side, so it's ok. Partisan is apparently the highest form of principle, my party right or wrong, the end justifies the means. Not something I accepted in 2008, not something I accept now, thank you.

Of course, apart from the very occasional organizer, the left-of-center protesters weren't paid. Many conservatives assumed they must be, however. More than a couple assumed they had to be bussed in from elsewhere. They were wrong, of course, and let their ill-will guide what could be dubiously described as "thinking". It always comes as a shock to me that people can honestly and reasonably disagree with me, once the shouting's quieted down, and usually I learn something when I stop judging and start asking them for their reasons. Sometimes I think they have their facts wrong; sometimes I think they have their priorities and values misordered; almost never do I find that their values actually disagree with mine--we agree on goals, but seldom on how to get there. It's a useful exercise, acknowledges diversity of opinion and thought, of perspectives, and helps make me a more thoughtful person.

[twitomy]

79. Well said......Both sides Astro-Turf

in the old days those involved would be called "agitators". Its nothing new, nothing to be afraid of. Its people getting in the face of those in power, and I think thats a good thing regardless of the issue. I dont want the right wing to go away, they keep the left honest (so to speak) and vice versa. Problem is today it is getting hard to distinguish one from the other as they are bought off by the moneyed interests and dont seem to give a damn about the middle class.

[depakid]

85. Meaningless goups of thugs?

Wow.

Well, at least when America fails to get meaningful health care reform I can look back with some schadenfreude and say to myself from afar that there are some who richly deserve what they got. Or didn't get.

[JonQ]

91. Couldn't that be said of any important issue where both sides

are allowed to voice their opinion? One side is going to lose, they could always blame the other for being able to protest and influence debate. I'm not sure if using that to strip people of their free speech is a road we want to go down.

Basic rights trump policy concerns, even very important ones.

[JonQ]

90. Bingo

Well said.

[TankLV]

178. MoveOn, BAMN, ANSWER, CodePink ... are all meaningless groups of thugs

well now, we know WHO you are, too...

and what is your description of these REPUKE THUGS?!!!

or do you only have venom for LIBERAL groups, as we all come to suspect...?

[JonQ]

39. I could copy and paste your post

with a few minor changes (republican = democrats) on freerepublic about the previous administration and receive nothing but wholehearted agreement.

[notadmblnd]

71. Go for it. If wasting your time signing up (just so you can post what I wrote) is worth it to

you. Or are you already an active poster?

[JonQ]

93. My point, which you seemed to have missed

is that the argument you and others apply here is no different than "those people" so often denounced as right wing radicals and dangerous ones at that. Except for minor details the far left and the far right seem to agree on a great many things. In this case: censoring those you disagree with under the guise of domestic stability.

I wouldn't like to use the same rhetoric as a radical.

[notadmblnd]

95. ow many left wing radicals have you read about inciting violence

It wasn't dems shouting at election time at a Palin rally "Kill him."

[JonQ]

137. I saw quite a few effigies of bush

being hanged, and protests in similiar fashion.

The lunatic fringe isn't a rightwing phenomenon, there are nuts on either end of the spectrum.

[notadmblnd]

144. in other countries

[JonQ]

145. In other countries as well as here.

[notadmblnd]

147. well then there should be pictures on the internets..

show me where it was done in America.

[JonQ]

159. 30 seconds on GIS

http://zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/

Warning: there is some nudity, so not safe for work.

[notadmblnd]

169. those are not democrat sponsored events

and as for the one of what you said was gw being burned in effigy, that could be Saddam Hussien too. The one of him hanged was done by the anarchists. Also, all those demonstrations were done outside and thye were not disrupting any meeting or events held inside. Try again using MSM link please.

[JonQ]

183. Hehe

yeah right. I post a link, it's not good enough because "well that burning gwbush effigy could have been Saddam Hussein, get one from the mainstream". So I search for a link from the mainstream media post it here and you'll say "taht doesn't prove anything they weren't sponsored by the democrats". I find ties between those groups and the democrats and it's "well barack obama wasn't personally there directing it, so it doesn't count". I manage to find a picture of barack obama actually burning an effigy of bush and it's "well he's probabaly burning him out of respect, doesn't count".

I've dealt with people like you before. You're an idealogue and no amount of evidence will convince you your side is less than saintly, and the other side is less than evil. I've given you proof, you have yet to do the same about the whole "GOP run mobs threatening politicians" claim. Do that (real proof, no photoshops or editorials) and I'll get to your other requests.

You see, when making an accusation the burden of proof lies with the accuser. Right now you are accusing the GOP of something, and have provided no proof, instead demanding counter evidence to "prove" that your theory is false.

[notadmblnd]

186. say whatever you need to say to get you through.

[JonQ]

158. misplaced

[guruoo]

40. 1st Amendment also gives one the right to call them 'angry mobs'

Busted!

[JonQ]

45. Yes, they have that right

but when the government starts issuing statements to that effect then it becomes a little more concerning (democrats do control a majority of the government at the moment).

Just like if bush had started labeling all his enemies as terrorists, even legit political ones. He would be within his rights to do so. It would still be concerning. And I would still call him out on it. Would you?

Besides which, mobs are different than protesters. Mobs are made up of criminals and can be legally dispersed, by force if need be. Setting protesters up as such creates the justification for using police force to prevent non-violent protests. That is something that I (and every other decent person should) have a problem with.

Everyone should remember exactly what they say here. When the government switches hands again and people are protesting whoever is the republican in the Whitehouse that year, and the GOP comes out and condemns the protesters as mobs of extremists tied to lobbyist groups out to disrupt the democratic process, recall what you have said today as you're repeating "dissent is the highest form of patriotism".

[guruoo]

72. Where has 'the goverment' offically labeled this group as an 'angry mob'?

(Cue theme from Jeopardy)

[JonQ]

138. Democrats control the government

at the moment, the head of the DNC has labeled them as such. I doubt you'd make such a fine distinction if the situation were reversed.

[Hansel]

102. The DNC is not the government.

It doesn't matter how many seats that Democrats hold. They are a political party and have every right to express their opinion. Just like the GOP has every right to organize protests and get called on it.

[JonQ]

139. Again, I never said they didn't have the right to do this

merely that it is concerning when the ruling party begins issuing edicts labeling the opposition as an angry mob.

[Flaneur]

151. But the opposition at those meetings is an angry mob.

If you disrupt a public event, you are likely to be asked to leave, forced to leave, or arrested. That should be the case with these angry mobs, just as it is with Code Pink, for example.

If these people want to participate, they can have their turn at the microphones like everyone else. If they want only to prevent others from speaking, they should be prepared to be asked to leave or arrested. The Code Pink people certainly are.

[JonQ]

161. I see

and did all people who opposed, for instance, the war in Iraq simply wait quietly for their turn at the microphone, refusing to raise their voice, get in anyones way or in any manner disturb the actions of others?

[Lorien]

208. So someone who was non-violent did this?

[Kingofalldems]

20. Dittohead freepers are in a state of shock

[mnhtnbb]

67. Great ad! They've included one of the moran birthers questioning Obama's birth certificate!

[onestepforward]

68. The DNC has to stay on top of this. n/t

[libodem]

76. I hope they are charged

with inciting riots or treason or anything that will stick. They are certainly becoming our mortal enemies.You can be sure if the shoe were on the other foot there would be charges of home grown terrorism. What's sick about this is the Big Pharma and the Big insurance, don't care if it comes to panic and mayhem in the streets and people get killed. They just don't want any competition in the Capitalism model. Remember how Capitalism was supposed to help the consumer by bringing down costs to the consumer, through competition. Not in this plan. They prefer the Fascism model of the government protecting corporations and rewarding them with being unregulated to spiral out of control with steeper costs year after year. Insurance companies don't care if 18 million Americans die every year because they can't afford medication or treatment. Fuck 'em. They are in bed with Wall Street and share holders and making money. That's the literal bottom line.

[GreenTea]

77. Back in grandpa's day - If the corporations sent in the thugs to bust up the union

the union just fought back and kicked ass, and if the republican company/corporate owners hired more thugs.... and the union needed help, there was always the mob boys there to help out the union and these boys were always ready to kick the fuck out of the company/corporate thugs for hire...the company's thugs for hire got the shit beat out of them and it wasn't worth the pay to come back and fuck with the union and their "friends"....Of course the union had to pay back the mob boys for their help with "favors"....that got the union in trouble as the paid politicians went after them with a vengeance.

[Blandocyte]

120. Ah, memories

Good times.

[T Wolf]

80. After reading this thread, it is clear that JonQ and twitomy are spewing the reich-wing

talking points.

They never address the issue, but only retort by pointing the finger at protests that took place during the Bushista regime. Along with the misspelling of certain terms, it is obvious from whence they come.

Sopt rising to their bait - simply ignore them. They are no more for health care reform than any repuke or Blue Cross Dog.

[provis99]

86. I recall all these left-wing protesters being arrested by the police

Even today, the doctors who protested in Congress for single-payer health care were arrested. Yet the right-wing protesters are not being arrested, despite getting to the point where a politician has to be escorted out by the police for his own safety. What is the reason for this inconsistency, and why are the police playing favorites with right-wing protesters?

[T Wolf]

88. After suffering abuse & assault at the hands of the authorities in protests way back when, I would

love to see these "conservative" protesters treated the way we were - beatings and shootings and brutality of a kind that would make them go running home to their mamas, except that their mamas would have to come to jail and bail their asses out.

Never happen though. Not in Amerika. The police are our enemy as much as the pukes and never enforce the law against the reich-wingers.

[JonQ]

140. Hmm, I am "reich wing"

for advocating freedom of speech, you are progressive for demanding police beatins and shootings of protesters?

If that's the case then yeah, I'd choose "reich wing" over progressive any day.

But I think the more cool headed among us see the error in your fascist ways.

[amandabeech]

94. Perhaps you missed your high school government course lecture on the First Amendment.

It might be time to get the textbook and read up.

[T Wolf]

97. Amanda - I know what IS SUPPOSED to happen regarding protesters. But, as long as our

side is still getting arrested and beaten, it only seems fair that the enemy also suffers those consequences.

In a fair and perfect world, rational discourse would be the norm. Until that day, I want an level battlefield. If a few puke heads have to get busted, that is a price I am willing to pay. Let's see if they are as dedicated to their cause after being beaten.

[amandabeech]

103. I don't like what they do and I don't like what you're advocating.

Those are my last words here on the topic.

[Malikshah]

99. Looks like you missed yours. Incitement isn't covered there.

Physical violence isn't either.

All you purity folks with the Constitution might wish to actually realize that the Constitution is a living breathing organism and like all such beings is not a panacea.

Wake up and smell the hooliganism masquerading as free speech.

Defending the violence is not the answer.

[amandabeech]

101. Wake up and find out what happens when you dump the Bill of Rights.

The rest of your post deserves no comment.

[Malikshah]

107. But your one statement does... Wow. Calling out people who are violent

and then calling out those that use "freedom of speech" to defend the actions is not a bad thing.

It is also not calling for the dumping of the Bill of Rights. Hyperbole is not in these days. Please do stick to reason and factually based discourse.

[amandabeech]

109. I am not defending violence.

See my comment above.

Your view of the Bill of Rights seems to me to be the first step down a very slippery slope.

As to your last sentence, I suggest that you take your own advice.

[Malikshah]

110. Slippery slope? Really??! Any other weapons in that forensics arsenal?

Simply dropping terms like "slippery slope" "bill of rights" into an argument doesn't necessarily show that one has fully grasped what is being discussed.

Just a friendly critique for the future.

You do know that you and your fellow false-equivalency types are losing the battle (and war), don't you?

Heck, even Krugman's called you all out on it.

[amandabeech]

111. I understand what you're saying very, very, very well. n/t

[Hansel]

106. I stopped reading when they called the DNC the government

and where freaked out because they were calling the mobs "mobs". Seriously, how transparent can you be.

[twitomy]

119. Ahhh Yes..the inevitable name calling

that happens when one lacks a good counter argument.
I hope you dont mine me doing a little of that myself in spite of my good argument by saying,
"How fascist of you!":-)

[fascisthunter]

168. that poster is on to you

[TankLV]

179. not just that poster - we all are on the THEM...

it's really too easy...

[fascisthunter]

181. .

;-)

[Zebedeo]

153. Yes

Sopt mssipelinng wrods! Poepple woh mssipel wrods aer dubm!

[JonQ]

162. Ahahah

I hadn't noticed that before. Hilarious.

[Zebedeo]

166. I enjoy irony n/t

n/t

[notadmblnd]

155. hasn't provided any proof of his accusations either

I asked to be shown pictures of bush being burned in effigy here in the states. I also asked him to prove that Answer and Moveon are supported or founded by former democratic politicians. The other thing I asked and didn't get an answer to was: why are the protesters rights so important but the people who right to express them selves in an orderly fashion were denied but there was no concern on his part about that? I don't expect I'll get those answers either.

[JonQ]

163. Actually I did answer

I had to do some actual work for a bit, sorry I wasn't there to immediately operate google search engine for you.

So the effigy thing is taken care of.

The accusation is that these protests are being secretly orchestrated by the GOP, not that former republicans make up the protestors (so only non-politicians can protest?) so demanding I find equivalent posts in moveon and answer that are filled with former democrats doesn't apply.


And I happily support everyones right to free speech. Very often ""loud and tumultuous behavior in a public" is used to arrest innocent people. I'd rather not see the police force in this country being used as an organ of the ruling party to stifle dissent. You seem to be of a different opinion. On this we will just have to agree to disagree.

[JohnWxy]

82. I wish somebody would look into the specific people who have disrupted town hall meetings to see if

they are coached by GOP operatives.

The GOP have borrowed this technique from the communists who used this time and again to disrupt new democraticly elected governments they had targeted for a 'take-down'.

[onehandle]

84. The GOP. The party of Pricks. nt

[Hansel]

105. Does anyone else think that there are a few plants on this thread

who are here to make sure that we don't get too excited about our party fighting back?

I'm a little sick of the lectures about freedom of speech by those who don't seem to understand what it means. Who think that the DNC is the government while the RNC has the right to protest "the government" without us objecting to their tactics of shutting down public discourse. Apparently Democrats are not being the good little puppies and lying down and taking it any more.

OH NOES!

Thank you DNC. FIGHT BACK! FIGHT BACK! It's about bloody time!!!!!!

[notadmblnd]

152. I definately think that there are at least two here.

but it's against the rules to call someone out.

[TankLV]

180. We don't "think" it - we SEE and KNOW it!!!

they are fooling NO ONE...

[windy252]

112. Glad to See this Response. It is About Time. n/t

[newspeak]

114. I knew one of the code pinkers

these women are dedicated to ending the war. They are very aware that they face arrest with their actions and don't have corporate sponsors to support them. To compare these faux grassroots mobs to code pink is an insult to code pink. I suggest that some of you on this board follow the money and support for these groups. Lobbying groups and bogus "networks" that have ties to corporations and some very wealthy people. This is a corporate shutdown. I will call them thugs, when they do not join in civil discourse, but do nothing but attempt to shutdown discourse. It looks like that's their job--to shut down any civil discourse. Now, I viewed one of those films and saw a man stand up to ask a question and the thug behind him yelled at him to sit down and shut up. I saw that on film. This is exactly the tactics used by the Brownshirts. Their goal was to roll over anyone who attempted to debate and use reason. I've never seen code pink actually threaten someone or bully someone to sit down and shut up. They know that as soon as they speak, there gone.

As stated on other threads, I believe that some rules should be set at the beginning of the meeting. A warning should be issued, that those who assault or continually, belligerently disrupt will be removed. And at the beginning of the meeting maybe someone should explain to the audience that a democracy depends upon it's citizens to participate in civil debate for the well being of all.

[sofa king]

115. Yet another similarity between the GOP and the Nazis.

From their affinity for lapel pins all the way up to their choice of financial partners, Republicans and Nazis go hand in hand.

The Nazis relied heavily on their streetbrawlers (the Sturmabteilung, "storm section," or SA) during their rise to power, specifically to interrupt other political rallies and hearings and to engage in "collisions" with other groups in order to stifle political expression. Once Nazi power was consolidated, they murdered the SA leadership in The Night of the Long Knives, as the blunt-trauma tactics of the SA were no longer needed.

Now, in the twilight of its own existence, the Republican party finds that it too needs organized goons. We're watching the party of Lincoln devolve into armband-wearing thugs, right before our eyes.

[dschis]

129. And Teddy Roosevelt

[sofa king]

132. Yep.

This is a bit of a cheap shot, but Teddy R. wore the fashionable black armband to note the death of his son, Quentin. It can't really be seen here, though:



Here's a shot of (Republican) Calvin Coolidge wearing the same kind of band, but I don't know for whom:



Edit: The armband is for a previous Worst President Ever and fellow Republican, Warren G. Harding. Harding's criminal legacy was cut short due to death, but he still ranks favorably with Reagan, Hoover and Nixon as worst Presidents. But not George, oh hell no, not George. We had to make a new definition of "worst" to accommodate that guy.

[steven johnson]

116. Welcome to fascist America

It's not personal. It's just intimidation and whether you are a pussy.

[dschis]

128. try me

[Odin2005]

118. About damn time!

[ArnoldLayne]

121. The DNC add

I just called the RNC number 1-202-863-8500 and I hit ext. no. 2 3 8 and 9 and told them I'm calling in reference to the DNC adds and said I agreed with it. I said what has become of the Party of Lincoln your become a bunch of Fascist Right-Wing Asshole Mob Worshippers. "You ought to be ashamed of yourselves ashamed you are nothing but a party of no ideas who are going to relegated to the ash heap of history and you can pass this message on to Mr.Michael Steele you bunch of FUCKING FASCIST ASSHOLE DICKHEAD RIGHT-WING ASSHOLES and be prepared to see us at the townhall meetings spread out in different spots throughout the hall you bunch of DICKWEEDS. I left it on ext. 2 3 8 and Michael Steeles personal ext. No. 9 I repeat Steels ext.no. is #9 and leave a lot of messages. And I said "OH I almost forgot have a nice night,day or whatever you bunch of Right-Wing Fascists." :dem:

[ArnoldLayne]

122. kick

:kick:

[notesdev]

124. Welcome to Democrat Bubble World

works just like GOP Bubble World, Land of Bush, except the talking points are different.

Either way, you can be assured that the residents of said bubble world will treat any resistance to their ideas as poor-faith opposition political activism, and never once seriously consider the idea that maybe, just maybe, the average Joe 6-Pack doesn't like being ripped off by his own government in the name of ANY ideology.

You want to know why these Reps are getting shouted down in their own town hall meetings? I'd wager a lot of money that it has far more to do with the massive TARP/stimulus-related looting of the public treasury than any birther nonsense.

Am I the only one here old enough to remember when the Democrats shot themselves in the feet in the exact same way from '92-94, leading to a near complete wipeout in the House of Reps in the '94 election?

[dschis]

127. That was before

You guys ruined the economy, but that was a long time coming

[notadmblnd]

149. let's see.... there was carter in the early 70's then reagun late 70's thru early 80's

then there was bush one up till the early 90's then Clinton for 8 years thru the 90's and bush 2 all thru early -mid 2000's

now lets do the math carter + Clinton =12 years.
Reagun + bush + bush = 20 years.


How do you figure Dems ruined the economy?

Before you answer just let me point out that while Clinton was president repubs were in control of congress and for the first 6 years of bush 2 repubs were in control of congress. now let us do the math there.


8 years of republican controlled congress + 6 more = 14 of the last 16 years with republicans in control of congress.

Now show me your math and and tell me how you figure that Dems destroyed the economy in just two years?

on edit: And one other thing.... Do you really think that your Jesus, if he were to come back to earth, would want to see that silly cross of yours? Seems to me that it would be the last thing he would want to see.

[Endangered Specie]

125. Inciting mobs?... the gop IS a mob!

[dschis]

130. Teddy Roosevelt is rolling in his grave

The original trust buster. Hard to believe he was a Republican

[fascisthunter]

135. very interesting thread... people are actually defending the mobs here

[and-justice-for-all]

165. Haha!! kick the pukes ass!!! nt

[TankLV]

171. Good! It's about TIME!!! WE WANT MORE!!!

[closeupready]

188. They are basically engaging in organized crime, IMO.

Would it be possible to use RICO here?

[karnac]

191. of course you know they are going to claim

no worse than voting fraud action by ACORN. So they should have a pass.

the bastards!

[Name removed]

232. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftishBrit]

237. Glad they're taking it up; these nuts sound SCARY

[0rganism]

238. the DNC needs to start sending mobs of its own

Right now, it looks pretty weak - the very idea of health coverage for everyone is getting shouted down in person by crowds organized by the insurance industry and GOP insiders. No amount of blame-laying is going to fix that, regardless of how accurate it is.

We do have organizing capabilities on our side too, we don't have to just endure this crap sitting down! Unions and independent groups like MoveOn can and will mobilize counter-demonstrations; it's a shame the right wingers got a month's head start on us.

Sadly, this really is a demonstration of how totally in-the-bag for plutocracy our political system is. When Bush wanted his war, he got it -- never mind the hundreds of thousands of citizens who marched in the streets against it, or spoke out at various political events. If national health care had half the clout that national warfare did and still does, our politicians would be debating about what kind of single-payer system to go with, not whether to have one at all. Obama and the Democrats control much of the federal government, but their interests and backers are, shall we say, "diverse."

We have two capitalist parties playing good-cop-bad-cop ping-pong, using a confused population as the ball, and barely anyone with clout has confidence to stand up for the proletariat.