Civil war fear for Honduras after talks collapse

[autorank]

Source: AFP

TEGUCIGALPA (AFP) - - There were fears civil war was brewing Monday in Honduras after weekend talks between the country's rival governments collapsed over ousted President Manuel Zelaya's demand he be returned to power.

"We have started organizing internal resistance for my return to the country," Zelaya told reporters in Nicaragua, where he has been based since his forced exile on June 28 by the Honduran army.

Costa Rican President Oscar Arias warned Honduras was at the brink of "civil war and bloodshed" following the failure of talks he was mediating between representatives of Zelaya and of the new, de facto government in Honduras.

Zelaya's negotiators ended those discussions late Sunday after the de facto government's team rejected as "unacceptable" a proposal by Arias that Zelaya go back as president at the head of a "reconciliation" government.

Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5h313M5Hw2Zt8icGE_P0Xp_UROq7w

---

After the negotiations broke down, Zelaya said he's going back home.

The process has allowed the coup perps to show their true colors and look bad. Well handled, imho, without fanfare or military intervention.


Both images Wikipedia

Interesting analysis: http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/honduras-behind-the-crisis

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. The gambit worked and he has guts

Now I wonder if Arias was the accidental negotiator...

Or he was counting on this.

Stranger things have happened....

[autorank]

6. Back story

Nadin and were discussing the U.S. reaction to the Honduras coup, particularly the U.S. ambassador telling
the coup makers that they were not the legit government and Obama's failure to recognize the military.

"The gambit" is Nadin's reference to Zelaya's acceptance of Arias' terms most recently. Zelaya accepted the terms
them because the coup-sters will never accept anything, then end up looking good. If that was his intent, Zelaya
scored.

[bemildred]

12. Yah.

The question now is whether the coupsters have been able to use the time in any effective way to consolidate their control, or not. And that all pretty much hinges on the unity and attitude of the military.

The US govt appears to have mixed feelings, they want the "interim government" out, or perhaps feel unwilling to openly favor it, but do not want another "leftist" takeover in Latin America. (Not saying I think that ambivalence is smart, mind you.)

[autorank]

27. Think you're right on the ambivalence

It's better than Panama tactics. It is interesting how this is turning around though.

We'll see how it comes out.

[bemildred]

30. "Was Ronald Reagan really that dumb?"

Why yes, yes he was. First to get involved with Noriega, then to find himself compelled to go after him in public to shut him up. Of course none of that was really Reagan, who was a tool, but tools are by definition dumb, and tools get used.

[Judi Lynn]

40. Thanks for making that point. I wonder if most people even realize it, yet. n/t.

[EFerrari]

2. The Clinton State Department is supporting this coup behind the scenes.

Millions in NED $ still flowing in, we're still training Honduran officers at SOA, our ambassador is still on site, not to mention, the Clinton apparatus is advising the coupsters.

If Zelaya goes back, it won't be with her blessing. And all of Latin America is now aware of that. Too bad. I thought we had an opportunity to do different this time out.

[DURHAM D]

3. oh good greif...

[EFerrari]

5. I am hating this. I so wanted to like her in this role.

argh

[Vidar]

24. I did too. She seemed to be the brightest star in this cabinet. But now the

business with " The Family" & the usual US skullduggery In Latin America come out.

[WriteDown]

18. The "Clinton" State department.....

So either she is the "real" POTUS or the State Department operates separately from the US govt?

[lexanman]

4. Why are we still supporting

the coup behind closed doors? State and CIA still have assets in place and either Obama doesnt know what is going on, being kept in the dark(which I highly doubt), or passively supports the coup while feigning outrage at the coup. What in the hell is going on and why is this change from Bush, or even what McCain would have done? I can only think that Obama is being told to play by the playbook, or (fill in the black)

[flamingdem]

8. Maybe there is a lot at stake

that has to do with playing the game in order to survive.

The media is happy to paint the current US stance as swerving to the
left on Honduras (hardly!).

The US could not support Zelaya returning because of the bloodbath
that could occur.

There is time, about 67 hours now, until Arias has lost all chance
of making something happen.

I hope that they enforce Arias' seven points with a UN peacekeeping force.

The coupists are 100% untrustworthy.

[lexanman]

9. Its a country central to the CIA misson of eliminating

left wing governments who dare to question. Like I said, evil is so entrenched it may be impossible for Obama to scrape the bilge out. If only the Honduran population were armed. The coupistas(my term) are not just untrustworthy, they are murdering bastards. Evil and illegal completely.

[EFerrari]

10. SOA grads, roots back to the torture regime during the Reagan era.

You bet they're evil. The very worst of the worst.

[Judi Lynn]

34. Several very recent articles have pointed to their reactivation of the death squad, Batalion 316

One short summary:

Human Rights report reveals brutal repression in Honduras
Mon, 20 Jul 2009 06:21:10 -0500

Summary:
The only Honduran coup-related death that made it into the International Information Environment was that of 19 year old kid — when Hondurans went to the airport to greet the closest thing they’ve ever known to representative government.

There were apparently 2 others executed in the airport crowd that day. In all, the new Human Rights report documented 4 executions of the resurgent military regime — the fourth being a reporter employed by several radio and cable TV stations, shot seven times as he left one of his radio stations up north towards the Caribbean coast of Honduras.

The military dictatorship arrested the father of the martyred teenager — for the crime of speaking to human rights reporters about the circumstances under which his son met his untimely death.

According to the new report, issued on July 15th (last Wednesday), former members of Ronald Reagen’s Battalion 316 death squad have literally been reinstated.

http://www.guerrillanews.com/headlines/20749/Human_Rights_report_reveals_brutal_repression_in_Honduras

[flamingdem]

15. Hondurans ARE arrmed, acccording to Radio Progreso in Honduras

the law allows them 5 arms per person. Of course the coupists have the big stuff, but it's cowboy country down there.

[IDFbunny]

36. So does this UN peacekeeping for dissolve congress

and the courts?

I wish OUR congress had impeached Shrub and OUR supreme court had issued an arrest warrant.

[Judi Lynn]

7. Honduras talks end amidst tension; violence feared cycle (2nd Roundup)

Honduras talks end amidst tension; violence feared cycle (2nd Roundup)
Americas News
Jul 20, 2009, 2:56 GMT

San Jose, Costa Rica - Negotiations over the Honduran political crisis ended Sunday without agreement as two international leaders warned of the potential for violence in the Central American country if the sides cannot resolve their differences.

In a hardening of the two sides, the delegation of the post-coup leader of Honduras, Roberto Micheletti, rejected a proposed reconciliation plan as unacceptable, especially the suggestion that the ousted President Manuel Zelaya return to head a national reconciliation government.

Zelaya in turn called for Micheletti's government and the 'putschists' to be punished.

Costa Rican President Oscar Arias, who has been mediating the crisis on behalf of the Organization of American States (OAS), warned of civil war in Honduras and gave the two sides another 72 hours to study his seven-point plan.

'What happens if an armed citizen shoots at a soldier, and what happens when the soldier opens fire on an armed protestor?' Arias asked, his face showing visible disappointment over the collapse of the talks.

More:
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/americas/news/article_1490670.php/Honduras_talks_end_amidst_tension_violence_feared_cycle__2nd_Roundup__

[harmonicon]

11. what a radical proposal:

that the elected president return as president. Of course that is unacceptable to those who overthrew him in a coup. Why the fuck is the US doing less about this? There is a real crisis in democracy just off our doorstep and the reaction is "move along, nothing to see here".

[IDFbunny]

37. If our congress impeached Shrub when they should have

would you be calling them "coupists"?

[harmonicon]

38. I shouldn't dignify this with a response, but here you go anyway:

NO!! W committed war crimes. He violated the bill of rights. Impeachment, as was done to Clinton, is one thing. Impeachment followed by trial is quite another. If these chicken-shit coup leaders in Honduras had a leg to stand on they could bring charges against their elected president. They don't, and they haven't. Forcing a president from power and kicking him out of the country: now that's a coup. What would you call it?

[IDFbunny]

42. I call it impeachment and exile.

If our unanimous congress and supreme court acting together hastily threw shrub out of the country, you'd be there protesting for shrubs return for a lack of due process. I'm so sure. BTW Little Chavez was brought up on charges and he chose exile over trial.

[harmonicon]

43. If the situation that you suggest had happened, it would have been against the law.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Do you even understand the difference between impeachment and a trial made possible by impeachment?

Who is this "Little Chavez"? Some cartoon character or imaginary playmate from your fantasy land?

[Wednesdays]

13. K&R

:kick:

[Judi Lynn]

14. Obama's Bullish Behavoir in Latin America

July 20, 2009

Obama's Bullish Behavoir in Latin America
Honduras and the Big Stick
By NIKOLAS KOZLOFF

Liberals who have idealized Obama don’t want to believe that their President is capable of bullish behavior towards Latin America. It was Bush, they say, who epitomized arrogant U.S.-style imperialism and not the new resident of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Recent events in Central America however force us to look at the Obama administration in a sobering new light. While it’s unclear whether Obama had advance warning of an imminent military coup d’etat in Honduras the White House has not emerged from the Zelaya affair unsullied.

In December, 2008, even before his inauguration, Obama received an irate letter from Honduran president Manuel Zelaya demanding an end to arrogant and interventionist U.S. ambassadors in Tegucigalpa. Just eight months earlier American ambassador Hugo Llorens had taken on the government by making inflammatory remarks. During a press conference the diplomat declared that Zelaya’s move to rewrite the constitution was “a Honduran matter and it’s a delicate matter to comment on as a foreign diplomat.” But then, contradicting himself and inserting himself into the volatile political milieu, Llorens remarked that “one can’t violate the constitution to create a constitution, because if you don’t have a constitution the law of the jungle reigns.”

If Obama was serious about restoring U.S. moral credibility world-wide he might have cleaned house by removing Bush appointees such as Llorens. An émigré from Castro’s Cuba, Llorens worked as an Assistant Treasurer at Chase Manhattan Bank before entering the Foreign Service. As Deputy Director of the Office of Economic Policy and Summit Coordination in the State Department during Clinton-time, he played an important role in spearheading the corporately-friendly Free Trade Area of the Americas or FTAA. But it was chiefly during the Bush years that Llorens distinguished himself, serving as the Director of Andean Affairs at the National Security Council. At the NSC, Llorens was the most important advisor to Bush and Condoleezza Rice on matters pertaining to Colombia, Venezuela, Bolivia, Peru, and Ecuador.

While Zelaya’s move to rewrite the Honduran constitution antagonized Llorens it also inflamed the local business elite and no doubt the U.S. foreign policy establishment. Perhaps these groups feared a Honduran repeat of the South American “Pink Tide”: across the region leftist leaders from Hugo Chávez to Rafael Correa have mobilized civil society in an effort to rewrite their respective nations’ constitutions.

Chávez’s 1999 constitution provides for some of the most comprehensive human rights provisions of any constitution in the world while also including special protection for women, indigenous peoples and the environment. The constitution moreover allows for broad citizen participation in national life. The preamble states that one of the Constitution’s goals is to establish a participatory democracy achieved through elected representatives, popular votes by referendum and, perhaps most importantly, popular mobilization. In Venezuela, it was Chávez’s constitution which helped to solidify his alliance with traditionally marginalized sectors of the population.

More:
http://www.counterpunch.org/kozloff07202009.html

[maryf]

16. K&R nt

[Peace Patriot]

17. The corpo/fascist press has tried its best to make Zelaya seem like a "troublemaker"

who is "causing a civil war"--while our own government sits back and permits that impression to go uncontradicted. They even contribute to it, by things like saying publicly that Zelaya shouldn't return to the country he is president of--he should wait; he should "talk." They seem to be playing a two-faced game, and it is very disturbing.

Whatever the outcome, the Rumsfeldian oil war planners and the corpo/fascist exploiters must be peeing in their pants with glee at the chaos, the disruption, the dismantling of good democratic order, in a region that is trending overwhelmingly toward leftist democracy. They've succeeded in Honduras, where they've failed--time and again--to create such disorder most obviously in Venezuela and Bolivia, but also in Ecuador, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Argentina, Mexico and other places. Chaos, disruption, disorder and violence are their M.O. for stealing resources and accumulating vast wealth, and smashing labor movements and any and all opposition to their tyranny.

Look around Honduras on a map, at all the orderly democratic processes that have gone forward, resulting in the election of truly representative governments--astonishing events largely ignored by our corpo/fascist press: In Honduras' immediate vicinity, the election of leftist governments in Nicaragua, El Salvador and Guatemala! Further south, the election of leftist governments in Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay (Paraguay!) and Chile. These are huge accomplishments of democratic order. They don't want our people to know about this. They want our people to think that Latin America is still a region of "banana republics"--an inherently unstable region with no commitment to democracy--when, in truth, the opposite has occurred. WE are the "banana republic" now--looted and plundered by a fascist elite, our democracy in tatters--while Latin America, through decades of hard work on transparent elections and other democratic institutions--has become what we claim to be, a "shining beacon" of democracy to all the world.

Oh, they dread our people finding this out. That is a chief value of the Honduran coup to our lords and masters. It is also, of course, one motive for their relentless "Big Lie" demonization of Hugo Chavez and other leftist leaders.

One can't help but regard the P.R. aspects of this situation, that is, the corpo/fascist 'news' monopoly manipulation of impressions. It is without meaning--as to the facts, reality and the truth--but has power as to writing false narratives for hidden actions and motives. Chavez the dictator. Zelaya the troublemaker, 'causing' a civil war. We need to beware of these impressions because they sink deep--as they are designed to do--below consciousness. Rule of thumb: Whatever impression they are trying to give you, of a Latin American leftist leader--if you can dig that out of your subconscious and view it in the light of day--assume that the opposite is true, and you will more than likely be right. Try to verify it, as well as you can, of course. Seek out the facts. But begin by rejecting the planted impression, and you will be headed in the right direction--toward true understanding of these leftist leaders and their supporters, and toward our corpo/fascist press and their intense propaganda.

[timeforpeace]

19. Zelaya call for internal resistance sounds like incitement to violence.

[Judi Lynn]

21. The violence was employed in kidnapping the elected President,

shooting at Hondurans gathered at the airport, the murder of at least two dissidents, and the total lockdown of the country, the suspension of their civil rights, and the news blackout everywhere but through their own channels.

That's where the violence is.

Currently the "violence" is the state of siege throughout the country, and the broad power they have given the military and the police to use the curfew hours to invade any and all houses on the premise there could be dissidents hiding in there.

Not to mention the 1,000 political prisoners they have already rounded up and thrown behind bars.

[EFerrari]

23. Insurrection against an illegal government is legal under the Constitution.

I believe I heard it is article 3.

[IndianaGreen]

33. Who in the FRAK opened fire on peaceful demonstrators at Tegucigalpa airport?

If Al-Qaeda were a rigthwing group, some people here would rationalize their violence.

[Judi Lynn]

41. Ultra-right Republican Congressman Dana Rohrbacher used to hang with the Taliban!

This may ring a bell with you:

Involvement with Afganistan and the Taliban
Mr. Rohrabacher had a history of involvement in Afghanistan dating back to the Cold War, when he openly supported the groups that would later coalesce into the Taliban regime for their active opposition to the Soviet Union, including fighters under the command of Osama bin Laden.

In late 1988, Rohrabacher went to Afghanistan:

After I left the White House and was elected to Congress, but before I was sworn into Congress, I knew I had that two months between November and January to do things that I could never do once I was elected to Congress. I chose to hike into Afghanistan as part of a small Mujahedin unit and to engage in a battle against the Russian and communist forces near and around the city of Jalalabad. <1>

In the November/December 1996 issue of Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, Rohrabacher was reported as saying that the Taliban were not terrorists or revolutionaries, that they would develop a disciplined society that would leave no room for terrorists, and that the Taliban posed no threat to the United States.<2>

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Dana_Rohrabacher#Involvement_with_Afganistan_and_the_Taliban

http://www.insidesocal.com.nyud.net:8090/southbay/160px-DanaRohrabacher.jpg http://blogs.ocweekly.com.nyud.net:8090/navelgazing/assets_c/2009/06/uncle-sam-rohrabacher,jpg-thumb-200x307.jpg http://www.insidesocal.com.nyud.net:8090/southbay/rohrabacherrussia.JPG

Republican Congressman Dana Rohrbacher, Uncle Dana, Dana the mad right-wing scientist

DU's The Top Ten Conservative Idiots (No. 158)
June 7, 2004
Chalabi Damned Edition

Dana Rohrabacher
Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA) is a fucking idiot. How big of an idiot is he? A very big one. Appearing on CNN's Crossfire last week, Rohrabacher blamed the Democrats in general and Al Gore in particular for September 11. Said he on CNN's Crossfire, "It's the Democratic Party and of course it's Al Gore, who knows a lot about incompetence, I might add, that got us into this mess; 9/11 was on the way; 9/11 was on the way by the time President Bush was inaugurated." Hmm, that's odd. See, Dana Rohrabacher used to be a pretty big fan of Osama bin Laden's protectors, the Taliban. How big of a fan? Well, a very big one. According to a 2002 report in the OC Weekly, Rohrabacher "lobbied shamelessly for the Taliban" during the 1990s. In 1996 he wrote an article claiming that the "Taliban could provide stability in an area where chaos was creating a real threat to the U.S." Later in the article he claimed that the Taliban were "not terrorists or revolutionaries," that media reports of the Taliban's nutjob religious fundamentalism were "nonsense," and that they posed no threat to the United States. Look - here's a picture of him in Afghanistan back in 1988!

http://www.democraticunderground.com.nyud.net:8090/top10/04/158_rohrabacher.jpg

Mind you, on September 11 Rohrabacher did stand before a microphone and say "I’ve been begging people to do something about Afghanistan, and I said if we didn’t do anything about the Taliban, we would pay a dear price." So there's always the possibility that's he's severely mentally ill. Actually it kinda makes you wonder why they let him go on television.http://www.democraticunderground.com/top10/04/158.html

(He's the one on the right, natch.)

[Judi Lynn]

35. Only an idiot would attempt to claim he has called for violence.

And only an idiot would try to overlook the fact the people of Honduras turned out in the streets in the largest display of protest EVER RECORDED IN HONDURAS to show their NATURAL RESISTANCE to this coup to overthrow their elected President, and the reinstatement of rule by the old, familiar, filthy oppressors.

[Javaman]

20. I firmly believe the US is building a "base" in Columbia to act as support.

I expect, air support from their and probably tact supoort as well.

[Judi Lynn]

22. When they're finished, they will have FIVE separate bases in Colombia.Also, impunity for US personel

from Colombian laws. Damned creepy.

[harmonicon]

39. when do you expect that they're building a candy factory to fill all of our Christmas stockings?

For free, even!! I think that's more likely.

[Me.]

25. R

:kick:

[autorank]

26. K

:kick:

[Judi Lynn]

28. Chile urges to restore constitutional order in Honduras

Chile urges to restore constitutional order in Honduras
2009-07-21 10:37:58

SANTIAGO, July 20 (Xinhua) -- Chilean President Michelle Bachelet said on Monday that the international community will not accept another solution to the political crisis in Honduras but the restoration of the constitutional order.

Bachelet, as temporary president of the Union of South American Nations (Unasur), supported the mediation brokered by Costa Rican President Oscar Arias.

After the 72-hour deadline set by Arias to find a way to resolve the political crisis in Honduras, Bachelet hoped the mediation to result in an "agreed and pacific" solution.

Bachelet also stressed that ousted President Manuel Zelaya has given necessary guarantees to achieve a solution and avoid violence and clashes in Honduras.

"The Honduran people can not continue living a situation like this, paying the price of the international isolation," said the Chilean president, referring to the suspension of aid coming from the European Union.

"The international community will not accept another alternative but the reinstatement of the state of law and democracy in Honduras," she said.

More:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-07/21/content_11743565.htm

[formercia]

29. The golpistas had their chance.

They are a minority and even though they control the military, without support, it's only a matter of time.

[bemildred]

31. Clinton leans harder on Honduran president (sic)

MEXICO CITY – Pressure on Honduras’s interim government, installed after President Manuel Zelaya was ousted June 28, grew over the past day, with the US threatening tough new sanctions.

The two sides have been locked in a stalemate, as the interim government of Roberto Micheletti has refused to consider a resolution proposal that includes the reinstatement of Mr. Zelaya.

Nations around the globe have declined to recognize Mr. Micheletti’s administration, recalling their ambassadors, closing off trade, and suspending aid in protest. Many expected the interim government to back down in the face of international isolation. Yet even pressure from the US, a historic ally of the Central American nation, might not be forceful enough to get Honduran leaders to budge.

“For the Micheletti government it appears the risks of allowing Zelaya to resume his office outweigh the risks of further international pressure and isolation,” says Michael Shifter, a Latin America expert at the Inter-American Dialogue in Washington. “I think most people underestimated just how difficult it would be for the de facto government to back down.”

http://features.csmonitor.com/globalnews/2009/07/21/clinton-leans-harder-on-honduran-president/

[Judi Lynn]

32. Honduras anti-coup rallies tense

Wednesday, 22 July 2009
Honduras anti-coup rallies tense

Honduras: Popular rallies against the coup d'Etat in Honduras continue Monday, amid a tense political atmosphere after the failure of the mediation of Costa Rican President Oscar Arias.

Social forces assembling in the National Front against the Coup d'Etat met to create strategies of struggle before the news from San Jose were revealed.

Representatives from the de facto government rejected Arias' proposals of achieving President Manuel Zelaya's return, with several conditions, among them a government of conciliation, amnesty, and the abdication to call a constituent assembly.

Juan Barahona, president of the Trade Union Workers Federation, stated that the three trade unions are to meet today to coordinate a general strike on Thursday and Friday.

http://www.dailynews.lk/2009/07/22/wld04.asp