Honduran crisis talks break down

[Joanne98]

Source: BBC

The interim government of Honduras has rejected a proposal put forward at talks in Costa Rica aimed at solving the country's political crisis.

The head of the delegation said the Costa Rican mediators' proposal, which would see Mr Zelaya return to Honduras, was "absolutely unacceptable".

Representatives of ousted President Manuel Zelaya have said they will no longer negotiate with their rivals.

Mr Zelaya was forced into exile from Honduras on 28 June.

The interim government says he will be arrested if he comes back. It prevented an earlier attempted homecoming on 5 July.

Mr Zelaya said nothing would stop him from returning to Honduras but that he had not decided when this would be, Reuters news agency reported.

"I'm very sorry, but the proposals that you have presented are unacceptable to the constitutional government of Honduras," said Carlos Lopez, the head of the interim government led by Roberto Micheletti.

He said Mr Micheletti's side objected in particular to the first point of Costa Rican President Oscar Arias's proposal.

That proposes "the legitimate restitution" of Mr Zelaya as the head of a reconciliation government, until early elections are held in October.

Mr Arias also proposed an amnesty for political crimes committed before and after the 28 June coup.

Mr Zelaya's representatives said earlier that if the interim government rejected the plans, the talks are "over".


Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8158413.stm

[bemildred]

1. Oscar Arias is as good as you are going to get, dimwit. nt

[peacetalksforall]

10. Which one is the dimwit? I vote for Michelleti for dimwit - because of the act of

takeover, because of the reason, because of his friends in Washington, Miami, Caracas (not Chavez, of course). Zelaya was duly elected. Coups, especially those using military force have to come to an end in this hemisphere. We are at the end of economic hit man and their corporate employers running the economic takeover along with Castro-hating Cubans conspiring with the CIA and being paid by the U.S. citizens through taxes.

[bemildred]

11. Michelleti of course.

He won't get a better deal later on, or a better interlocutor.

[peacetalksforall]

12. You're right. And I fear for the people. And for Zelaya.

[bemildred]

15. I fear for Micheletti too.

People in his position have shortened life expectancies. But it is true that more bloodshed is possible before this is over.

[timeforpeace]

20. Well yeah, Zelaya has called for open rebellion. He's inciting.

[bemildred]

21. Is that KoolAid good? nt

[Judi Lynn]

30. You bet that's KoolAid.They can't rebel against a "government" no one recognizes. n/t

[Joanne98]

2. Here's Reuters.......

SAN JOSE, Costa Rica, July 19 (Reuters) - A negotiator for the delegation of the deposed Honduran president said they would no longer talk to representatives of Honduras' interim government, but would remain open to dialogue in the future with new representatives.
"This dialogue with this commission of the de facto, military coup government is finished," Rixi Moncada, a representative of ousted President Manuel Zelaya said on Sunday.

Costa Rican President Oscar Arias said he aimed to renew talks between the two sides in 72 hours. (Reporting by Ana Isabel Martinez; Writing by Mica Rosenberg

http://ow.ly/hDZi

[angstlessk]

7. yes it is Zelaya's fault...I am sure AP will be similar and USA citizens will continue

to be in the dark as to what is happening to their neighbors to the South!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

3. If they keep delaying things, Mel's term will be over and with it any legitimacy to his claims

And there is a arrest warrant out for him in Honduras issued by their Supreme Court.

Neither side has clean hands in this one

[EFerrari]

6. If they keep delaying? That's their whole strategy.

And although you keep reposting this Fox News "they are both guilty" stuff, INTERPOL basically laughed at the the coupsters request that they take up the case. The Court was complicit in the kidnapping so their warrant has no credible standing at this point.

[David__77]

13. Coup-run elections are not legitimate.

Zelaya is legitimate president until he is reinstated or resigns.

[excess_3]

18. do you think Z's private referendum was better?

[lexanman]

22. Do you think

the Honduran government and legislature and Supreme Court were all democratically elected members by the people? The SOA has installed and trained most of the puppets behind Z's coup. The Honduran Constitution was written by SOA grads. The coup government has no legitimacy. But you knew that, didnt you?

[excess_3]

25. the SC and legislature are more legit than Z's ...

now canceled,,
privately run constitutional convention

[lexanman]

26. privately run ?

consitutional convention? So a SOA installed puppet government is legitimate in your eyes? crock of shit. False talking points dont trump facts. An installed puppet government is not nor ever will be legitimate. Maybe in Fascist eyes, they are. No government recognizes the coup instigators.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. Too many are looking at this as a binary situation when there are clearly dirty hands on both sides

Pointing that out to the binary types on either side tends to start them frothing.

[lexanman]

29. This isn't a grey situation

This is a government who was installed and used for decades as the center of drug trafficking, money laundering and arms smuggling, aided and funded by our CIA and DEA. This isnt some issue where people are disagreeing on an issue and there are multiple angles and points of view and approaches to. Honduran politics goes back a long while with our government, even before Iran/Contra. Its an illegitimate government and has been for dozens of years.

Its an issue of legality and what people think is or should be legal. If assassination attempts on elected officials, drug and arms smuggling, and right wing propaganda is something one side agrees with, then there is nothing more to say. If you think there are a thousand angles to it, you are not informed about Honduran history, and most possibly Latin American History in general.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

31. By your words even Zelaya is illegitimate. Care to restate you position?

[lexanman]

32. since you are a professor, I assume

tell me why Zelaya would be illegitimate? Do you teach Latin American History? I know the background of Zelaya and FARC and Chavez and others quite well. I stated my position. And Im not going into a talking points flame war. Give some background on why you think Zelaya is illegitimate. and googling Zelaya doesnt count. I have books and friends and first hand knowledge from officers stationed in these countries what goes on. I speak fluent Spanish and Portugese as well, and I read the twitter stuff being posted by the coup regime which is composed of lie upon lie. Doctored photographs, reports commissioned by DEA contractors who try and tell the "truth" on what happening. I will expose every lie.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

33. Those are *your* words, not mine...From post #29

This is a government who was installed and used for decades as the center of drug trafficking, money laundering and arms smuggling, aided and funded by our CIA and DEA. This isnt some issue where people are disagreeing on an issue and there are multiple angles and points of view and approaches to. Honduran politics goes back a long while with our government, even before Iran/Contra. Its an illegitimate government and has been for dozens of years.

That would seem to be inclusive of the Zelaya regime, thus my question. You should still be within the edit window if you want to change your statements

[lexanman]

34. Zelaya

was not part of the "regime" you infer. Zelaya has been part of Honduran politics for a long time. It does not mean he represents or is a part of what happened in terms of the military coup. I wont change a thing on what I posted. Saying the Zelaya "regime" is all I need to know about your lack of knowledge about Latin American politics. I truly hope I wouldnt get one of your classes, if you are a professor. Couldn't take the misinformation and redirection.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

36. Then what synonym would you use?

administration...government...??? He was the President with a majority in their legislature.

Your passion is producing poorly written and worded statements at best. Get some oxygen and reread them.

[lexanman]

39. He was not part of the coup

He IS the President with a legislature who did the bidding of the coupistas. No need to try and pitifully attack me. I have no passion in this argument other than exposing right wing lies. The legislature and SC as well as the military are infiltrated with SOA thugs and drug runners. You nicely ignore the fact that our government has been instumental in the makeup of the Honduran government. I suggest you read my well written statements and try not to misinform. Plently of readers here can see right through your non arguments, as well they should.

[EFerrari]

41. The "professor" has been justifying the coup for weeks. n/t

[lexanman]

43. There is no justifying

illegal criminal activity. The Latin American Forum really is a target for right wing lies. Pictures, video, and the internet will expose them.

[EFerrari]

44. The forum is actually doing very well nowadays. n/t

[lexanman]

37. Z and Chavez were both

elected by their respective populations and have very high approval ratings. Hence the uprisings. I would think that you would refer to them as "dictators" as well. Posts such as yours with misinformation are saddening.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

38. Then you would think incorrectly

Again, your passion is negatively impacting your communication. You see things that are not there and do not understand the meaning of what you write.

[lexanman]

40. please

address my points. not what you think is my "passion".

[excess_3]

45. Z's approval rating was 25%, before his arrest warrant .n/t

[EFerrari]

46. Do you have a link for that?

[excess_3]

48. try this link

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/editorial/world-issues/2009/07/10/215639/Manuel-Zelaya:.htm

in the paragraph at the bottom of page one


btw, I have no idea what the 'chinapost' is.

I;ll look for other links, if anyone is interested

[Judi Lynn]

49. I've got a poll for you:

Deposed Zelaya Outranks Successor in Honduras
July 20, 2009

(Angus Reid Global Monitor) - Hondurans are split in their assessment of Manuel Zelaya, according to a poll by CID-Gallup published in La Prensa. 46 per cent of respondents have a favourable opinion of the deposed president, while 44 per cent hold unfavourable views.

However, only 30 per cent of respondents have a favourable opinion of Roberto Micheletti, the Congress leader who was appointed as interim president following Zelaya’s ouster.

In November 2005, Zelaya—candidate of the Liberal Party (PL)—won the presidential election with 49.9 per cent of all cast ballots, defeating National Party (PN) nominee Porfirio Lobo Sosa. Less than 69,000 votes separated the two contenders. Zelaya took office in January 2006.

Polling Data

Do you have a favourable or unfavourable opinion of Manuel Zelaya?

Favourable
46%

Unfavourable
44%

Not sure
10%

Do you have a favourable or unfavourable opinion of Roberto Micheletti?

Favourable
30%

Unfavourable
49%

Not sure
21%

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/33831/deposed_zelaya_outranks_successor_in_honduras

[excess_3]

51. stupid sympathy vote .n/t

[Judi Lynn]

50. China Post is published in Taiwan. Right-wingers. Asian Freepers. n/t

[excess_3]

52. if you got something better

of Z's popularity before his arrest warrant, please post

[Judi Lynn]

54. Not going to bother. Those Honduran people who have been going from their homes,

knowing they could easily be shot, as well, are not crowding onto roads and streets to protest at the risk of their own lives because they feel sympathetic for someone.

Don't be any sillier than necessary.

[Judi Lynn]

35. Have appreciated your posts enormously already.

Huge welcome to D.U. :hi:

[lexanman]

42. thanks!

[Judi Lynn]

53. Remembered your post when I ran across this article a moment ago:

July 20, 2009
They knew and they helped a little
By Juan Gelman
July 16, 2009

Translated by Scott Campbell

The White House knew for months that a coup was being prepared in Honduras, even though now State Department spokespersons feign a surprised innocence. The U.S. ambassador in Tegucigalpa, Hugo Llorens, knew it very well: on September 12, 2008, he arrived in the Central American country and, nine days later, the current coupist general Romeo Vásquez declared on the radio station HRN that they had sought “to overthrow the government of president Manuel Zelaya Rosales” (www.proceso.hn, 9/12/08). He added: “We are a serious and respectful institution, which is why we respect Mr. President as our Commander-in-Chief and we subordinate ourselves as dictated by law.” Just like Pinochet before rising against Salvador Allende. Any resemblance is just the work of reality.

On June 2 of this year, Hillary Clinton went to Honduras to participate in a meeting of the Organization of American States. She spoke with Zelaya and shared with him her discomfort with the referendum that the leader planned to hold at the same time as the next presidential elections. U.S. officials indicated that “they didn’t believe that the plebiscite was constitutional” (The New York Times, 6/30/09). Six days before the coup, the Honduran paper La Prensa reported that Ambassador Llorens had met with influential politicians and military chiefs “in order to find a solution to the crisis” caused by the referendum (www.laprensahn.com, 6/22/09). The “solution” they found is obvious.

It’s difficult to assume that the military leaders of Honduras, armed by the Pentagon and educated at the School of the Americas, where many Latin American dictators were trained, would have made a move without the approval of their mentors. Aside from that, the coupists did not hide the reasons for their actions: Zelaya was getting too close to the “communism” of Chávez, the Venezuelan most-hated by the White House: in July 2008, under his mandate, Honduras joined the Bolivarian Alliance for the Americas (ALBA), the new “axis of evil” in Latin America. Too much, right?

Too much, yes, because Honduras is strategic territory for the Pentagon, which from its base in Soto Cano, where it stations troops from the U.S. air force and infantry, doesn’t only dominate Central America: this bona fide enclave is fundamental in the U.S. military’s scheme for a region rich in natural resources. Although he never touched the interests of foreign corporations or the local owners of economic power, Zelaya constituted a danger of “destabilization.” It’s fitting to mention that the referendum about holding a Constituent Assembly that could have permitted the reelection of Zelaya was non-binding. No one was bothered in Washington by the constitutional reform in Colombia that allowed for the re-election of Alvaro Uribe, the great ally of the U.S., which was not even a plebiscite. It’s that one thing is one thing and another is another.

The Honduran coupists are not very presentable. General Romero Vásquez Velásquez, thrown out by Zelaya, came back with the coup and authored the kidnapping and expulsion of the president, was sent to the national penitentiary in 1993, together with ten other members of a gang accused of robbing 200 luxury automobiles (www.elheraldo.hn, 2/2/93). He was then a major in the army; as a general, he devoted himself to robbing a government elected at the polls. Another unpresentable one is Advising Minister Billy Joya, who doesn’t do justice to his last name (or does, depending on how you look at it): he was head of the tactical division of Battalion B3-16, the Honduran death squad that tortured and “disappeared” numerous individuals in the 1980s. “Lawyer Arrazola” - one of his aliases - is an expert in such activities: he studied the methods of the Argentinean and Chilean dictatorships (www.michelcollon.info, 7/7/09). These are well-known facts, in spite of which, or because of which, he was chosen to form a part of the so very democratic coupist regime.

More:
http://angrywhitekid.blogs.com/weblog/

[Odin2005]

4. Micheletti has no legitimacy, none.

[Judi Lynn]

5. Very sad ending. Oscar Arias seemed completely defeated, resigned.

The PEOPLE of Honduras have not been leaving their homes under the threat of being shot, having already had some of the poltical actists murdered, and others sent into hiding, if they did not want their ELECTED President Zelaya back, and NOW.

Why HAS Pinochetti closed their news media, surrounding some of the offices with soldiers, why did he cut their electricity, phones, etc., and suspend their civil liberties, if he feels the people of Honduras are behind him? Clearly this is a theft of their elected government and that's why the ENTIRE WORLD condemns it.

[bemildred]

8. Zelaya envoy cuts off current talks on Honduras

Hmm, can't seem to agree on who the quitters were ...

SAN JOSE, Costa Rica, July 19 (Reuters) - A negotiator for the delegation of the deposed Honduran president said they would no longer talk to representatives of Honduras' interim government, but would remain open to dialogue in the future with new representatives.

"This dialogue with this commission of the de facto, military coup government is finished," Rixi Moncada, a representative of ousted President Manuel Zelaya said on Sunday.

Costa Rican President Oscar Arias said he aimed to renew talks between the two sides in 72 hours. (Reporting by Ana Isabel Martinez; Writing by Mica Rosenberg)

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN1953524920090719

[Judi Lynn]

9. That's some dirty writing there. They already agreed to ALL the points by Arias. ALL of them.

They have already agreed to his compromise.

That was accomplished YESTERDAY.

Pinochetti's team absolutely refused any part of this.

People are being wildly misled.

Presumably there will be a buttload of Blackwater types headed south to start killing off some of those crowds of supporters who are filling the streets and highways at great personal risk to their own lives.

[David__77]

14. This is a victory, of sorts.

Now the reactionary interference of certain elements in the Obama administration (not Obama himself) has been defeated. The coup plotters stand exposed more than ever.

[peacetalksforall]

17. You are right. We should name them again in this post or link to that great article that.

outlined those who are working with/for Michelleti. And it looks like it is our CIA .... which means it is also ........?

[timeforpeace]

19. Go ahead and say it. You know you want to.

[EFerrari]

23. The Obama administration has not withdrawn its support of the Pinochetti government.

Still flowing money in, still training their goons and the bonus is, Hillary Clinton's PR aparatus is advising them.

Did I leave anything out?

[Judi Lynn]

24. Her ties to the Latin American and Cuban right-wing oligarchy are NOT Democratic.

Those people are as far from democratic principles as humanly possible, or inhumanly possible in their case.

[peacetalksforall]

16. We need a new message update from Pres Obama and Sec Clinton and I hope it

is strong in favor of a duly elected man who doesn't have the support of corporations, obviously, but does have the support of the little people - the ones who count on a human level. If your election doesn't mean anything, you are a Banana Republic. If the corporations are about bananas and are behind the coup leaders, the domination must cease. The domination of Central and South American by the U.S. and Europe must end.

We may be facing more deaths here. Let's hope for another attempt at peace.

EVERYONE!!!!! - PLEASE!!!!! please read this if you haven't already - especially about the business industries who are backing the coup. I'll add the link after:

"Financial backing for the coup is identified by some as coming from the pharmaceutical industry, which fears Mr Zelaya's plans to produce generic drugs and distribute them cheaply to the impoverished majority in Honduras, who lack all but the most primitive health facilities. Others point to big companies in the telecommunications industry opposed to Hondutel, Honduras's state-owned provider. Parallels are being made with ITT, the US telecommunications company that offered the Nixon government funds for the successful overthrow of President Salvador Allende of Chile in 1973.

A key figure is Robert Carmona-Borjas, a Venezuelan active against Mr Chavez in 2002, who later fled to the US. He runs the Washington-based Arcadia, which calls itself "an innovative 'next generation' anti-corruption organisation". Its website carries three video clips alleging, without evidence, that Mr Zelaya, his associates and Hondutel are deeply corrupt. Behind Arcadia are the US-funded National Endowment for Democracy (NED) and the International Republican Institute (IRI), the well-funded overseas arm of the Republican Party. Currently active among the Uighurs of western China, the NED has this year funnelled $1.2m (£740,000) for "political activity" in Honduras.

The focus of attention in the campaign against Mr Zelaya is now on the office of Senator John McCain, the defeated US presidential candidate, who is chairman of the IRI, takes an interest in telecoms affairs in the US Congress and has benefited handsomely from campaign contributions from US telecoms companies – which are said to have funded the abortive 2002 coup against Mr Chavez.

Mr McCain's former legislative counsel, John Timmons, arranged the visit of Micheletti supporters to Washington on 7 July where they met journalists at the National Press Club "to clarify any misunderstandings about Honduras's constitutional process and ... the preservation of the country's democratic institutions".

Meanwhile, within the US administration, difficulties in co-ordination have emerged between the State Department and the White House, with the Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, issuing a low-key condemnation of the coup which was quickly superseded by stronger words from Mr Obama. The President called for Mr Zelaya's reinstatement, which Mrs Clinton had failed to demand.

The conservative-minded Mrs Clinton retains John Negroponte, an ambassador to Honduras under Ronald Reagan, as an adviser. He also represented George W Bush at the UN and in Baghdad. Democratic Senator Chris Dodd attacked Mr Negroponte in 2001 for drawing a veil over atrocities committed in Tegucigalpa, the Honduran capital, by military forces trained by the US. Mr Dodd claimed that the forces had been "linked to death squad activities such as killings, disappearances and other human rights abuses"."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/democracy-hangs-by-a-thread-in-honduras-1752315.html

[Judi Lynn]

28. US closely monitors Honduras

US closely monitors Honduras
Last Updated : 2009-07-19 10:44 PM

WASHINGTON: The United States said Sunday it was following the situation in Honduras closely after talks on the Central American country's political crisis broke down.

Representatives of both ousted Honduran leader Manuel Zelaya and de facto head of state Roberto Micheletti met earlier in the day at talks in Costa Rica mediated by Costa Rican President Oscar Arias.

But the talks, a second round of negotiations, broke down over Micheletti's refusal to allow Zelaya to resume office -- a key part of a reconciliation plan proposed by Arias.

The Costa Rican leader, a Nobel Peace Prize winner, has called on both sides to take a 72 hour break before returning to the discussions.

"We've obviously seen the report about the talks and the proposed 72 hour delay," said Rob McInturff, a State Department spokesman. "We're just following it closely and waiting to see what's going to happen next."

"In the end this has got to be a solution from Hondurans for Honduras," McInturff said.

More:
http://www.thehimalayantimes.com/fullNews.php?headline=US++closely+monitors+Honduras+situation+&id=MjAyNzk=

[Judi Lynn]

47. Iron Fist, Velvet Glove: Obama and Honduras

07-20-2009 15:34
Iron Fist, Velvet Glove: Obama and Honduras
By Richard Collie

Back in April, at the Summit of the Americas in Trinidad, U.S. President Barack Obama was handed a copy of Eduardo Galleano's alternative history of the Americas: ``The Open Veins of Latin America: Five Centuries of the Pillage of a Continent.''

The book vividly details the history of exploitation and meddling in Latin American affairs, firstly by the early European colonists, and eventually by the United States.

Indeed, it could be argued that no region or continent has suffered more than Latin America at the hands of U.S. imperialism over the years.

Just since World War II, the School of the Americas (SOA), founded in Panama but now based in Fort Benning, Ga., under the new guise of ``Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation'' (WHINSEC) has its grubby finger prints all over a long list of political assassinations, coups and human rights abuses in the region.

From its role in the overthrow of Salvador Allende and support for the dictatorship of General Pinochet in Chile; through the training of the Contras death squads in Nicaragua; and more recently to the Bush administration's support of the failed attempt to dislodge Hugo Chavez in 2002.

The rise of the new left in Latin America is thanks in no small part to the painful memory of these events and a desire to carve out a new, different future free of foreign political manipulation. Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, the man who handed Obama the book in question at the summit in Trinidad, is a key proponent of this movement.

Who knows if Obama actually took the time to read the book, though judging be his current rhetoric, we can suspect that he did not.

When pressed recently by Chilean President Michelle Bachelet about the CIA's role in the establishment of the 17-year Pinochet regime, Obama responded that although he acknowledged that the U.S. had ``made mistakes,'' he was ``interested in going forward, not looking backward.''

More:
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2009/07/137_48741.html