Import, domestic cars are equal in quality, says J.D. Power study

[Bozita]

Source: Detroit News

Monday, June 22, 2009
Import, domestic cars are equal in quality, says J.D. Power study
Scott Burgess / The Detroit News


Consumers buying a foreign or domestic car should expect the same quality of vehicle, according to J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality Study released Monday afternoon at the Detroit Athletic Club.

"Domestic and import quality is exactly the same for cars," said Dave Sargent, a vice president of automotive research at J.D. Power.

Additionally, the industry on the whole showed a significant improvement in overall quality, Sargent added.

Last year, the industry average was 118 problems per 100 vehicles and this year that average dropped to 108 problems.

Read more: http://www.detnews.com/article/20090622/AUTO01/906220376/Import--domestic-cars-are-equal-in-quality--says-J.D.-Power-study

[WriteDown]

1. No they're not!

I heard it right here on DU that foreign cars are vastly superior. :eyes:


edited for grammar

[AndyA]

3. That's right, I've heard the very same thing. Over and over again.

Ignore that smoking, loud import the neighborhood kid drives.

And as long as it's made here in America, it's basically an American car anyway... :eyes:

[HopeHoops]

43. Um - no. Domestic CONTENT is a major factor.

Yes, I know - some "American" cars have little if any domestic content. The majority of cars from the big 3 feed a VAST network of totally American companies for parts. The foreign cars may be ASSEMBLED here, but if the parts are primarily imported, how do they get away with saying it is MADE here? Toyota ships in entire engines and transmissions that are just bolted together and stuffed in the hood. Is that made here?

On top of that, Japan subsidizes the crap out of their auto companies - it makes our "bailout" look like chicken feed.

You can't go by where it is assembled - you have to look at the supply stream and how many American jobs are supported by the production of the vehicle. Foreign car companies aren't making American cars. Period.

[TheCoxwain]

4. Domestic cars have an 'image' problem ..and that is real ..who wants to be seen in a GM

after they built gas guzzlers like hummers?

GM took over and destroyed Public transportation companies ..


Fuck them .. I hope all their executives die penniless.

[WriteDown]

16. Good thing no Japanese manufacturer built any gas

guzzlers, hahahaha. Where do people get this stuff?

[TheCoxwain]

26. Well atleast they did not kill tramway companies and infiltratre land use boards that encouraged

Urban sprawl and ensured that there never will be sufficient population density to have profitable public transportation system ..


We all are paying the price for GM's excesses ... So once again..


FUCK GM .. FUCK those bastards

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Codeine]

63. That was over fifty years ago!

Jeez, by that logic nobody should want to be seen in a Japanese car because of the Rape of Nanking or a Volkswagen because of the Holocaust.

[Warpy]

7. Not from me

because I bloody nearly bought domestic when I was retiring a Ford Ranger that was old enough to vote.

I ended up with a Kia for 2 reasons: better cargo room and the fact that AC was standard and not part of an expensive "package" of crap I didn't want.

If Detroit really wants to compete, IMO, they're going to drop the "package" idea and compete head to head with what's standard on foreign brands.

[WriteDown]

17. This is why unions are destined to fail in the US..

Very few Americans are willing to pay a premium for American labor. Compare that to Japan where nationalism is fierce.

[Romulox]

20. Worse even. These people will pull up to an anti-H1B rally in their Hyundai.

Perhaps lack of worker solidarity isn't the problem. Americans seemingly have no sense of either irony or shame. :shrug:

[Warpy]

21. Price wasn't the issue, labor wasn't the issue.

Stupid marketing was the issue.

I'm afraid the unions are being destroyed by management, not by customers.

[WriteDown]

22. Price is always an issue to Americans...

that is why 99% of the people will buy a Chinese wrench if they can save 1$ over an American wrench.

[blue_onyx]

25. Yes, price is important

which is why I think Chinese auto companies will do well in the US.

[AndyTiedye]

38. Until the Chinese-Made Cars Start Exploding in the Streets Due to Manufacturing Defects

[AndyTiedye]

37. Where Do We Find an American Wrench Nowadays?

Not in the local hardware store, that's for sure.

I thought I could get one from Snap-On, at least, but NOOOOO. Spent over $40 mailorder and it was made in Sweden!
I suppose that those Swedish workers are unionized, but I was trying for American-made.

[Romulox]

51. Sears. nt

[sledgehammer]

47. If the quality is the same or better...

...then yes, most Americans (and almost everyone else) will go for the cheaper item.

[Art_from_Ark]

65. Nationalism is fierce in Japan?

You're kidding, right? In this country from where I'm writing, Japan, it can be controversial to raise the national flag at a school, almost nobody puts out a flag on Japan's version of the Fourth of July, and the true nationalists who go around neighborhoods in big, black trucks blaring old war songs are looked upon with indifference or even scorn by the average citizen.

[Romulox]

75. Japan is a country which will not allow enough immigration to offset its population decline.

Japan has a sense of racial/cultural chauvinism that is among the strongest on the planet earth. Whether is strictly analogous with Western Nationalism isn't really the point.

Certainly the Japanese market is not open to many foreign products, including automobiles.

[Art_from_Ark]

79. Japan is a country that is the size of California but has 4x the human population

and nearly zero resources. It really doesn't need a population increase. But there is still immigration, mostly from other Asians countries like Taiwan, the Philippines and China.

As for cars, Japan has a registered vehicle population of 60 million plus, which is one vehicle for every two people. The mostly narrow roads here are already crowded. The automobile market is saturated. But even so, there are foreign cars here. If I wanted to, I could go to various dealers in my city and buy a Mini Cooper, Mercedes Benz, BMW, Peugeot, Volvo, even Ford. I've even seen Hummers and Sierras here, but I don't know how the owners can really drive them around since they often take up a lane and a half on narrow roads, and the steering wheels are on the wrong side of the car to boot. And if you have a breakdown out in the boonies, good luck in finding a mechanic who can work on your foreign car.

[Romulox]

86. And yet the Japanese government is BEGGING young Japanese to procreate.

Sorry, but trying to argue that Japan doesn't have an outsized sense of xenophobia/cultural/racial chauvinism may work for a child. Everyone else knows it as the country in which one may be born and live a lifetime as a "resident alien". :hi:

[Art_from_Ark]

93. Ask almost any American which is the best country in the world

You might get an "outsized sense of cultural chauvinism" :hi:

I don't know of too many countries in Asia that automatically grant citizenship for merely being born there. But if I wanted to get Japanese citizenship, I could apply, and I have known foreigners who have gone that route. But in order to get Japanese citizenship, I would have to give up my American citizenship, because Japan doesn't recognize dual nationality of people who have reached the age of 20.

As far as encouraging young people to procreate, the Japanese government is indeed, doing that, but really, it seems that the natural limit of this country is around 125 million or so, so they should really focus on dealing with what is an inevitable outcome of limitations imposed by land and resources.

[EndersDame]

81. In Japan the automakers don't have to pay for health insurance because the gov't does

Where as US automakers have to. Just another reason for nationalized health care

[Art_from_Ark]

92. The individual pays for most of his/her own health insurance in Japan

I've paid in far more to the Japanese health insurance system than I've ever gotten out of it.

[AndyTiedye]

39. This Was the Last GM Car I Wanted to Own

But instead of selling me one, they



so they could build more Hummers :grr:

[WriteDown]

45. That old urban legend? False.

http://blogs.edmunds.com/karl/2006/06/gms-ev1----who-killed-common-sense.html

Read and learn.

[Romulox]

2. Don't worry. DUers will find *some other* excuse to abandon Labor this time. nt

[WriteDown]

5. Something like....

the cupholder is two inches too much to the left or something no doubt.

[TheCoxwain]

6. No .. more like .. GM cars are FUCKING UGLY

[Romulox]

8. So are most Americans. nt

[Mopar151]

15. As compared to soobies?

or an RX8?

[Xithras]

19. It's not just GM

I'm still trying to figure out Ford's recent fascination with wrapping their cars and truck with giant flat chrome grills and bands. The Taurus, the Fusion, the Flex, and the new F150 all have these giant gleaming chrome frontends that are just tacky IMHO. There's no elegance to it.

[TommyO]

53. Don't forget Acura and their guillotine inspired front end

[blue_onyx]

24. Compared to the ugly, boring Toyota and Hondas

GM vehicles are a work of art.

[TheCoxwain]

27. You've gotta be kidding .. a drunken monkey could have come up with better form factors

and biggest turn off is the GM symbol that looks like Golden Red cross.

[blue_onyx]

28. LOL...

Your biggest worry is the corporation's logo? GM vehicles are far better looking than anything the Japanese companies are putting out. GM's future designs will be even better.

[WriteDown]

30. Argh! How can I drive a car with this ugly logo?

Makes you laugh, doesn't it? :)

[TheCoxwain]

31. it is not the logo itself .. it is everything about what the logo symbolizes ..

if you dont get that .. well I am sorry for you

[WriteDown]

32. Odd from a poster with an atomic symbol as their...

avatar.

[TheCoxwain]

68. Ever heard 'atoms for peace'? .. there is much to be had by harnessing the power within them

I am all for electric cars powered by nuclear reactors ( hopefully - clean fusion reactors)


If GM is in the forefront of that race then so be it.

[blue_onyx]

33. The funniest part is the GM logo

is very, very small and usually on the side of the vehicle where it's barely visible.

[Romulox]

52. Your critique is emotional, not rational. I don't think most Americans are amenable to facts. nt

[Codeine]

64. So?

It's a tool. Fucking transportation. If you're concerned that much about your image you're a douchebag.

[Warpy]

10. Your concern is duly noted

and given the respect it deserves.

[Romulox]

13. Your otherwise content-less bump is appreciated!

How dare I post in a pro-Labor thread? Somebody call the mods!

[tomreedtoon]

36. We're not abandoning labor. Just your management.

And you seem to be supporting your bosses' desire to make rattletraps. Why do you want to go down with them? Why aren't you guys protesting the crap you are ordered to make?

[Romulox]

54. You didn't read the OP, did you? Are you sure you're not a bot that keys on the word GM

and posts generic negative crap that has no basis in facts? 'Cause it really does look that way!

"And you seem to be supporting your bosses' desire to make rattletraps."

Did you even read the OP? :hi:

[tomreedtoon]

66. I read it. I accept it as GM Management Propaganda (TM).

And you, a union guy, who in previous ages would FIGHT Management, are fully with them even as they cut your jobs and ruin your life.

Or have you bought into what Management's marketing philosophy has been: build crap and tell America it's not?

[Romulox]

70. You're ignorant and uniformed.

"And you, a union guy,"

I've never belonged to union, just like you've never scored an 'A' in debate. :hi:

[tomreedtoon]

73. If I were "uniformed," you'd be arrested for bad spelling.

And for "I've never belonged to union," for bad grammar as well.

Not only aren't you taking the time to write correctly, you're under the thrall of the GM Management Zombifying Corps. "GM Cars are great! They're built well! They're worth the price!" Yeah, they are good, they are great, they are better than "Cats," you're going to see them again...and again.

[leveymg]

9. J.D. Powers says that? Industry pays JD Power to conduct its surveys, and fees for advertising.

From Wiki: J.D. Power obtains the majority of its revenue from corporations that seek the data collected from J.D. Power surveys for internal use.<1> Companies which have used J.D. Power surveys range from Automotive, cellphone, and computer manufacturers to Home Builders, and Utility companies. To be able to use the J.D. Power logo and to quote the survey results in advertising, companies must pay a licensing fee to J.D. Power.

[Romulox]

11. That includes the world's #1 auto maker, Toyota. So your point falls flat. nt

[liberal N proud]

23. I will take my Chrysler w/145,000 any day over a new TOYotas

[leveymg]

34. Owned a '77 Aspen, an '86 Camry, a '92 Volvo - all over 200K, loved 'em all

You don't get my point - it's not to knock American iron. It's that JD Powers is an industry marketing device, an ad writers prostitute.

[Romulox]

55. Right. But Toyota, Honda, Nissan, VW, et al. all participate. So your point makes little sense.

:hi:

[leveymg]

58. The point that I make is that no assessment made by a company that gets paid by the manufacturers

is reliable, particularly as the results are used for marketing purposes - there's an inherent conflict of interest, and a bias to rate the products up by JD Powers.

Let's put it this way, if JD Powers issued devestating critiques of these products, the manufacturers would cease to support it. :hi:

[Romulox]

59. It's illogical to posit that a group that takes money from ALL manufacturers are biased toward

one of many of the manufacturers which supply these monies.

"there's an inherent conflict of interest, and a bias to rate the products up by JD Powers."

JD Powers studies comparitive quality amongst all the car companies. There is no inherent bias, as favoring GM will anger Toyota...

[pipoman]

82. Actually

for years...decades in fact..JD Power has consistently rated Honda and Toyota with the highest ratings in their initial quality ratings. They have often issued scathing reports on domestics.

[Romulox]

85. More to the point, Toyota and Honda participate in JD Powers surveys, so his point makes no sense.

[flvegan]

12. I think that in general, that's probably true, but you can't take it as gospel when sorting

cars into categories. For example, while I think GM/Ford has come a long way in comparison with their Japanese rivals, I'll never be convinced that a Chevy-badged Daewoo is as good as a Honda.

I think the Malibu and Fusion are right there with the Accord/Camry, and so forth. Some are MUCH better though. The ZR1 is far better than that Nissan GTR, which just seems to enjoy breaking when pushed hard. Motor Trend COTY, my ass.

I hope this trend continues and the American car makers see more successful years in the future.

[daggahead]

14. Now that GM will import cars from China, I will look to VW ...

[Romulox]

18. Ummm, LINK? nt

[tomreedtoon]

35. Import cars have gotten as bad as Detroit cars?

I find this hard to believe, except for the weirdie roller-skate two-person cars that are being imported. Those, I can believe, are as bad as American cars. But not Toyota or Honda.

[Stellabella]

40. Yes, we certainly should EXPECT that. But we don't get it.

I'll believe Consumer Reports over JD Power any day.

[fujiyama]

44. CR is saying similar things

It actually even has a few "recommends" for American cars. I believe the Ford Fusion and the Chevy Malibu are among them.

I haven't seen the fit and finish of the Malibu or the Fusion, but my friend recently sat in a new Mecury Milan and was impressed by the interior.

[Stellabella]

62. Yes, there are some recommends. But not many.

And we've bought American cars for years and years. After spending hundreds and hundreds every month repairing the cars, we have finally switched to Toyota and LOVE it.

[deadmessengers]

41. "initial" quality survey.

Initial. Meaning, that when they're just rolling off the showroom floor, a Chevy's about as good as a Honda, which is fine, but completely meaningless to me. I don't know about you, but I'm far more interested in the quality of cars that have been on the road for five years.

[Sabriel]

42. Sorry, I don't buy it

Just take a look at the pages in the Consumer Reports Car Guide. You can tell by the color which ones are Hondas and Toyotas (and Infinities and Lexi), and which ones are prone to repair issues.

And not all imports are great...VW and BMW have had issues for years with reliability. (The VW Fox. Need I say more?)

[Romulox]

56. "Faith based argument". nt

[lutefisk]

80. Could you elaborate? An argument based on faith in statistical analysis?

Not sure I get your response...

[Romulox]

91. In fact, posters here are rejecting the findings of such a study where they clash with their biases

Please scan this thread for examples, including the most recent response to the OP. :hi:

[ShortnFiery]

46. Just like the whores of the M$M, the domestic car PR shysters think that the American People are

stupid. :eyes:

[sledgehammer]

48. Consumer Reports 2009

10 categories listed. Only one category where an American car tops - pickup trucks.

The rest are all imports.


* Pickup Truck: Chevrolet Avalanche (2008: Chevrolet Silverado 1500 Crew Cab, no pick in 2007)
* Fun-to-drive: Mazda MX-5 Miata (2008 and 2007: Mazda MX-5 Miata)
* Small sedan: Hyundai Elantra SE (2008: Hyundai Elantra SE, 2007: Honda Civic)
* Family sedan: Honda Accord (2008 and 2007: Honda Accord)
* Upscale sedan: Infiniti G37 (2008 and 2007: Infiniti G35)
* Luxury sedan: no pick, but implied Lexus LS 460 (2008: Lexus LS 460L, 2007: Infiniti M35)
* Small SUV: Toyota RAV4 (2008 and 2007: Toyota RAV4)
* Midsized SUV: Toyota Highlander (2008: Hyundai Santa Fe, 2007: Toyota Highlander Hybrid)
* Minivan: Toyota Sienna (2008 and 2007: Toyota Sienna)
* Green car: Toyota Prius (2008 and 2007: Toyota Prius)

link: http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2009/03/04/the-consumer-reports-auto-issue-best-and-worst-2009-cars/

[bl968]

49. Why I didn't buy American...

When I went looking for my last car I sincerely wanted to buy American. This was at the height of the gas crisis and the prices were coasting upwards of $4 per gallon. Well I didn't end up with an American car because they don't compete in the one area that was my primary requirement, gas mileage. That is where Americans car manufacturers either can't or don't want to compete and that's why they are going out of business.

[blue_onyx]

50. US vehicles ARE competitive on gas mileage

What did you buy?

[NickB79]

57. I was in the same boat in 2005

I was looking for a hatchback, and gas mileage was my #1 issue.

The only car from Chevy with 35+ mpg was the Aveo. It is made in Korea, and didn't score very highly in the consumer reviews at the time :(

Chrysler had nothing that got very high mpg, so they were completely out of the running.

Ford had the Focus, but the styling left much to be desired and the reviews of it weren't all that great at the time.* Plus, the hatchback version was made in Mexico :(

So, I ended up with a Scion xA, made by Toyota. Excellent car.


*If I were in the market for a new car today, I would seriously consider a Ford Focus or Fusion Hybrid. I have to hand it to them, they have really gotten their act together in the past 2 years.

[digidigido]

60. To a great extent, American cars are paying the price for the Big 3's planned obsolescence idea

Once you've been burned by a company, and if that company has a 50 year tradition of
trying to put one over on you, then you're a little shy about going back there.
Watch the movie Tucker, get a sense of how Detroit ran things. Look at the way they
treated people, especially trying to cover up unsafe products and not take responsibility
for their lemons. i.e Ford Pinto.
Once you have earned that reputation and taken 50 years to build it, then it's going
to take a while for you get people's confidence and trust back.
The single quickest thing the big 3 could do to improve car sales is a 10 year 100K mi
warranty on EVERYTHING, with maintenance free for the first 3 years. Then it's not
"trust me" it's I believe in this car and I stand by it

[fascisthunter]

61. JD Power study huh...?

me thinks their study is a bit biased. I don't buy it...

[Zynx]

67. Are you willing to even entertain the possibility that a Ford is equal to a Toyota?

[fascisthunter]

69. oh... I already did

so now what?

[Zynx]

71. When? If it was back in 1994 that's not very relevant now.

[fascisthunter]

72. are you sure you are talking to me? I didn't say anything about 1994

believe me when I say this... I would like nothing more than to see an American automotive company being #1 in the market, however due to the way these companies in general treat union members and workers alike to help give their investors and board memebrs a better return, I seriously doubt it would matter much.

It's American if they give a damn about Americans. It's time big business prove their patriotism rather than slapping American flags on their cars to sell them at dealerships.

Someday we'll see better vehicles... less polluting and reasonably sized.

[Zynx]

77. I used that as an example if you were referring to a past experience with a car.

As far as relations with union members, just how many union members do the foreign car companies employ in this country?

[fascisthunter]

89. ...still doesn't excuse American Auto-manufacturers

most foreign companies actually have governments that provide their workers with benefits, such as healthcare... they feel it's our government's responsibility to do the same.

It's too bad Americans could care less about other Americans when it comes to money.

[Sgent]

74. This story isn't accurate -- only reports on new car quality (defects in first 90 days)

Every survey I've seen from Edmunds and Consumer Reports -- and even JD Power at http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-brand/sortcolumn-1/descending/page-#page-anchor indicate used car ratings are a different ballgame. This is evidenced by how quickly US made cars lose resale value.

That said, US cars are much better than they were 5-10 years ago and continue to improve -- I would have no problem buying a Ford for instance. That said, they made such crap, for so long, and screwed their customers while doing it, that it will take a long time for them to regain any type positive association in most consumer's minds.

The following is the list of 4 and 5 star brands based on 3 year reliability from JD Power -- notice the only non-premium brands are Honda, Toyota, and depending on how you classify them Buick.


Porsche
Cadillac
Honda
Lincoln
Acura
Infiniti
Mercury
Toyota
Lexus
Buick
Jaguar

[Romulox]

76. Buick, Mercury, Lincoln roll off the same lines as Chevy and Ford...

And Mercury isn't a "premium brand". :hi:

[Sgent]

78. Fair enough

but apparently the Ford / Chevy brands have too many models that don't meet the requirements, hence why they aren't on the list.

My latest car purchase was a Lincoln, and I hope to buy a US car the next time as well. I've been looking at Caddy's for a while, but GM has really done some shoddy stuff after sale to some family members of mine (multiple dealers/incidents in the last 2 years), so I'm still a bit leary.

[Romulox]

87. A study which ranks two cars that roll off the line with different name name badge differently

is likely subject to biases. Which is why, I suspect, any name brand associated with being "premium" are being subconsciously rated higher than the others.

You'll find similar results wrt to cars that rolled off the same line, some to be branded "Toyota", and some to be branded "Geo"--the Toyotas have historically been rated higher, despite sharing almost every detail with the GEO...

[stlsaxman]

83. "Scientific studies show Horses and Koala Bears in same genetic family"

[alarimer]

84. Wrong. Dodges are pieces of shit.

I know because we have several trucks at work. And they have been in the shop more often and cost a hell of a lot more to fix than anything else we use.

GM makes cars in Brazil and Mexico to "import" into the US. The US auto industry is hardly "American" anymore.

[Romulox]

88. Your post is inaccurate. GM doesn't import cars to the US from Brazil. nt

[JeanGrey]

90. Sure they are JD, SURE.

ROTFLMAO