Pfizer Gives Up Testing Viagra on Women

[baby_bear]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/28/business/28viagra.html

<snip>
Women, the maker of Viagra has found, are a lot more complicated than men.

After eight years of work and tests involving 3,000 women, Pfizer Inc. announced yesterday that it was abandoning its effort to prove that the impotence drug Viagra improves sexual function in women. The problem, Pfizer researchers found, is that men and women have a fundamentally different relationship between arousal and desire.
...
"There's a disconnect in many women between genital changes and mental changes," said Mitra Boolel, leader of Pfizer's sex research team. "This disconnect does not exist in men."

...he said the researchers were changing their focus from a woman's genitals to her head.

</snip>

They could have just asked any woman and saved themselves some time and money.

:eyes:
s_m

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. I was in the focus group

and couldn't get an erection

[theorist]

2. Maybe that's because you didn't focus enough. n/t

[Heddi]

3. The thing about viagra, though

is (at least from the few men I've known that have taken viagra)---viagra gives you a hella-boner, but does NOTHING to quicken ejaculation....this one guy I worked with talked about how he'd have a super-erection and could have sex for 4 hours straight if he (and his wife) wanted to, but he had problems with ejaculation.

So the Dr told him to take the Viagra a few hours earlier than he was, sit around with an erection for 2 hours, then have sex during the later-part of the erection---but by that point, he had been 'hard' so long that it was actually PAINFUL to have sex and ergo, no ejaculation.

So he's stopped taking viagra and is using something else (we're not THAT close so I'm not asking what it is), but whatever it is allows him to maintain an erection and have an orgasm.
---

Of course, physiologically speaking, of COURSE women's sexual centers are more brain-driven than they are driven by physical stimulation. OR at least half-and-half

If Pfizer wants to help women with sexual arousal problems, they need to make a pill that does the following:
* works 50 hours a week to ensure that the bills can be paid

* comes home after work, picks the kids up from school, cooks dinner, washes dishes, puts a load of clothes in the washer, puts the kids in the tub, helps the kids with homework, helps husband with the bills, put the clothes in the dryer, put kids to bed, take a shower, and go to bed no later than 10pm BECAUSE...

* the pill has to wake up at 6:30 am, make breakfast, wake the kids, wake the husband, make lunches, shuttle the kids off to school, go to work, work through lunch, leave work late, sit in traffic for 45 minutes, picks up dry-cleaning, goes grocery shopping AND...

* Take the kids to soccer practice on Saturday, take the dog to the vet, clean the house, change the sheets, help hubby pain the garage, pick the kids up from soccer practice and drop 2 off at Tae-Kwan-Do, go to Costco and Target, pick the kids up from Tae-Kwan-Do, get the kids ready for a birthday party down the street...

* AND STILL feel like having sex at least 4 nights a week even though the pill is so tired it falls asleep before its head can hit the pillow

:laughs:

[chasqui]

27. An otherwise good post degenerated

Into a typical chain-email joke.

[BiggJawn]

35. OK, so the kids are gone...

And with the exception of the 50-hour week, I do all the rest of the stuff that pill does, PLUS some things.
Why do I still want to? Hell, Heddi, to apply your logic, I should be squatting down over in the corner witha carving knife muttering "Don't EVEN think of touching me."

Thinly-veiled male-bash, if you ask me.

[JPace]

4. "They could have just asked any woman"

You have that right. Women will most likely become
mothers....nature demands that she have more control
over her sexual appetites.

[baby_bear]

6. I tend to think it has nothing to do with motherhood

And I also don't think it has anything to do with being tired from too much work to do, although that of course would physically discourage a woman from being interested.

The article focuses on the connection between mental and physical arousal. They don't say anything about their observations being applicable only before menopause, or otherwise relating to the potential for bearing children, such as being on the pill.

But perhaps it evolved with that being a factor. Interesting subject. And amusing, given that it refers to a "disconnect" in women that doesn't exist in men. I would describe it just the opposite: women have a "connect" that men apparently do not have...(i.e., the brain is out of the loop for men...)


s_m

[Heddi]

10. The article says this:

In one early clinical trial, researchers gave six women Viagra and six others a placebo, sat them in front of erotic videos and used a pelvic probe to measure any change in genital blood flow. The sex organs of women given Viagra were more engorged than those given placebos. The program seemed to be succeeding, Dr. Tiefer said.

But a larger trial that included a questionnaire found that although Viagra was associated with greater pelvic blood flow, the women experiencing this effect did not feel any more aroused, Dr. Boolel said.

---

Okay--women watched erotic videos and they became PHYSICALLY aroused---but not MENTALLY aroused--

The story didn't say if they gave the women viagra and had them take it at home and have sex with their sig-other.

I guess I (as a woman) could watch some horny porn tapes and sure I'd get physically aroused---but I'd be MORE aroused if my husband was there, we were watching it together, and went to the bedroom (or living room floor)--THAT is mentally arousing.

A few years ago I took a Sexual Psychology course in college and we learned (okay, some of us learned, some of us already knew) that women are more aroused by physical means and men are more aroused by visual means---

women like more foreplay. more touching. more caressing. more hugging and snuggling and intimate things like that.

men like visual images--the lingeree business is there for the men, not the women. Men are aroused by pornographic images. Women in bikini's. Seeing their woman in a sexy outfit or sexy position.

It's a FACT--psychologically and physiologically and biologically--men and women are wired differently in ALOT of ways.

Blood flow to the genital area is great for men, but it doesn't work on women the same way, and ESPECIALLY under sterile clinical-research conditions. Hell, many women have issues with having sex with the lights on. I find it hard to believe that many women would be feeling totally aroused in a clinical facility (even if the lights were off). And having a probe up your cooch just ADDS to the fun, I'm sure...

This quote from the story should be noted:"Pfizer's problem has been that its research effort has largely been led by cardiologists and urologists, said Dr. George Nurnberg, professor of psychiatry at the University of New Mexico School of Medicine. "Psychiatry hasn't been a major player," he said. "

[baby_bear]

12. Heddi, how about written material?

In your class, did you learn that women tend to be aroused by written erotica much more than by visual erotica, and moreso than men (for the written stuff)? I learned that somewhere but I'm not sure if it's a generally accepted fact.

s_m

[slinkerwink]

15. that part's true

[Heddi]

16. Yeah we learned that

I guess that the focus of our discussion regarding differences in general sexual arousal was that for women, it was in the higher parts of the brain and in men in the lower parts of the brain -- and this isn't a slam on men in any way--the class just pointed out the differences.

It's been YEARS since I've taken the class, and my notes and books are around here somewhere....somewhere....but it was really very interesting learning and understanding about how our bodies and brains are wired differently.

From what I can remember from this class and my physiology classes, the part of the brain that deals with reading & comprehension and imagination (visualizing mentally what you're reading) are very close to the parts of the brain that deal with touch and emotion---but I am not sure about this 100%---and that's why women are more aroused by written word than they are by pictures, and more aroused by actual physical touch, caress, foreplay than they are by just getting down to the nitty gritty, if you know what I mean :)

Also, the story referenced in the origial post just states that the researchers used devices to measure genital blood flow as a response to seeing images on a screen---although Freud thought differently, the majority of women are incapable of reaching orgasm SOLELY by vaginal penitration or stimulation. The clitoris is a MAJOR player for the majority of women.

I wonder if their results would have differed if the women were allowed to use clitoral stimulation while watching the images (by vibratior, finger/hand massage, etc). Or again, if the results would have had more favourable results if the experiments were conducted like Masters & Johnson did their experiements on sexual arousal--even if they were testing MALE sexual arousal, they would have the male engage in foreplay/intercourse/dirty-talk/whatever with their female partner to get a more 'real' final result.

As humans, we generally hold our sexuality to be very private, and for the majority of people (especially those with sig-others or spouses or partners), we are more aroused around those people in situations than we are in general situations without our sig-others with us...if that makes sense?

[private_ryan]

29. men are visual

women think before getting aroused. We see a nice ass and big boobs, we're in. We can thank evolution for it, before birth control and everything. Before having sex, the woman had to worry if he would care for the potential kid and her while she was pregnant. All men had to worry is if she was healthy enough to carry the baby.

Deny it all you want...

[mainer]

5. Women use their brains. Wow, what a surprise.

[hlthe2b]

7. Exactly... Obviously a male head researcher....

[ott]

8. Back to the drawing board

We'll get out of this foreplay thing one day men. :eyes:

[never cry wolf]

11. Who would want to??

To me that's the best part, er, um, almost. It certainly leads to a better best part anyway, IMHO!

:P

[boobooday]

9. If women were as easily aroused as men

We'd all be in trouble! haha

http://www.wgoeshome.com

[maxanne]

13. hmmm

<<<...he said the researchers were changing their focus from a woman's genitals to her head.>>>

Next they'll develop a cream for us to rub on our heads, whaddaya bet??

[mopinko]

14. they should be testing it for side effects from meds

there are a lot of medications that have sexual side effects. women taking these can have all the "ducks in a row" but still have problems. this would be the ideal test group, if you ask me.

[FizzFuzz]

17. Has anyone thought

about internalized cultural messages and how they affect women?

I know that I dont LOOK like the ideal female sex object anymore (viz. I ain't 19), and it can get pretty tough to get myself turned on, when the social message I have grown up with, had pounded into me and unfortunately believe on a deep level, is that "middle aged women are unappealing. Disgusting. Ugly. Not wanted. Invisible. Over the hill. Asexual"

My sexuality always had a big connection to how sexy I felt, in terms of how men reacted to me--how hot I judge myself to be dependent upon how hot I was judged to be. If I don't feel or think I'm sexy, I feel ugly and foolish. What a turnoff!

This is damaging stuff and I think it has an effect. Just that no one talks about it.

[Heddi]

18. Of course no one talks about it

When I was younger, I dated a guy who had pin-ups of Pam Anderson and other busty babes on his wall, a collection of porn mags 3 ft tall, and a collection of porn movies that would make any adult-news-and-video owner blush in shame.

So here I was--average sized gal, a little thick in the waist and butt, but you know--that's me...

But it was incredibly....distracting when we're having sex, or being intimate, and all around me I see images of women who look NOTHING like me, and who have modified boobs and butts and lips and hips.

Of course, he'd always tell me "You know, babe, they're good to look at, you know, nothing more, just good to look at"--of course, to him, he was complimenting me. To me, I felt horrible.

The message he sent to me was that THEY were good to look at, while I was good to fuck.

Made me very insecure about my body, and made intimate relations between the two of us more of a pleasure for him, and a way to kill 40 minutes for me.

Of course he was no physical prize either. 20 years old, pot-belly, flabby thighs---but that was okay with me---but my body wasn't okay with him. In his mind, some girls were for 'looking at, that's all" and the other 98% of the population were bed partners, nothing more.

The subtle signals women are given throughout their life have a HUGE impact on the way they view themselves in comparison to other women, and the way they FEEL about themselves.

You can't be 100% there in the bedroom if you feel like an old hag, worn out, flabby boobs, sagging butt when EVERY OTHER IMAGE and MESSAGE portrayed in our society basically says that you should be shot the day you reach 30 because you're spent. Your body is spent, and once the body is gone (and heaven help you if it's not there to begin with), you're of no use to society.

Look at movies and "movie stars"---Jack Nicholson is what...200, 250 years old. Look like hell on 2 legs. More wrinkles than my grandpa, but he's still a LEADING MAN. A HUNKY OLDER GENTLEMAN. Plays lead parts. Is still the "catch" in the movies.

What female stars are his age, in his phyiscal condition (Wrinkles, balding, etc) that have the star-power and draw that he does? Even the OLDER women actresses get second-or-third billing, they're not the "romantic lead", and they generally are forced to played widowed or divorced women, usually disgruntled towards men, and NEVER portrayed in a sexual light.

THe message is clear---You are what we tell you you are. If you're a middle-aged woman, who do you look for as role-models---shit, I'm only 28 and who do *I* look for as a positive female role-model? You have to look pretty darn hard to find ANYONE who isn't 24 (at the MAX), perky boobs, perky butt, long perfect hair, perfect body, and always in the mood for sex sex and more sex.

I'll never forget when I turned 25, my mother (a very wise, and very liberal and very feminist woman) told me to hang on to 25 as long as I could because once I was over 25, I was USELESS as far as mainstream society goes. I was too old to be young, too young to be old, and no matter what I did, I would be marginalized from that point on, in my job, in my sexuality, in my profession.....

She wasn't being pessimistic, I really think she was being realistic...

[FizzFuzz]

20. GODDAMABSOLUTELY!

I'm so sorry your mom gave you that message--and only 25! Owch! But we all get that. I grew up getting it pounded into me to be sexy and attractive for the boys.

Men cannot relate to this one bit! They have no context for it! They don't experience being objectified and defined by others, relegated to the trash heap if they don't look a certain way. In fact, whaddaya think of these damn TV shows and movies about ugly guys scoring with hot babes? The media admits no other type of woman. Young and hot, thats all that exists. Wouldn't it be great to see a show with average dorky women scoring hotties? Or average dorky women having a significant role?

I mostly avoid TV because I can't stand the messages!

You're absolutely right about movies; So rare to see older women (on TV, you occasionally see us--advertising adult diapers, hemorroid cream, osteoporosis meds and nursing homes.)

I am always looking for role models of funky hip older women. I'm 46, and even though I look good (for my age--ah yes, that woman's caveat!), I have this image in my head of being old and decrepit. I could use some role models and stories about women who changed this outlook! And I'm looking for advice a little more robust than "oh cheer up age is just a number".

I hope this thread doesnt get buried..I want to see more women respond

[Logansquare]

23. Yes, how about an erotic film for women over 40, like me?

Maybe I could see an older woman with a young hot guy? Let's face it, they don't care about our sexuality--we're supposed to be invisible.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. I saw just such a movie back in the 1980s

It was made in East Germany. What was most surprising was the lead actress was in her mid 40s and looked it but was still having an affair with a younger man.

You have to go to the Europeans for "desirable older women" movies.

[fortyfeetunder]

37. There was one, Terri McMillian's story adapted as movie

Called How Stella got her Groove Back. Stella a 40ish executive goes to the Caribbean and has a fling with a 20-something man. Now, I read the book before seeing the movie. The movie is cute, but the book is better....

[arikara]

32. What I'm finding really painful now

Is all the women on TV in my age group have botoxed and tightened their faces so much that they look like wax dummies. It physically turns my stomach to look at them. It is so depressingly rare to see a female celebrity who looks like a real person past the age of 45.

There is only one that I can think of, Susan Flannery on the soap Bold and Beautiful who looks like a real middle-aged woman. And it hasn't hurt her career either, she's won several Emmy's. I think she is the most beautiful woman on tv because she is so real.

I'm with you FizzFuzz, I don't watch tv anymore either.

[JusticeForAll]

38. Everyone is objectified

Men, women, it's societal conditioning and stereotyping.

There's a lot of women who are older and still retain their attractiveness, wit, and intelligence...Tina Turner always comes to mind.


What do I know though, I'm just a gay guy.

[baby_bear]

34. Very good thoughts, FizzFuzz

There is a lot to what you say. My self image at any given time rules how sexy I feel, (and therefore act), absolutely.

Welcome to DU by the way. This may be a thread worth continuing somewhere. Maybe we should ask the moderators to start a feminist thread. What a breakthrough! (/sarcasm)

s_m

[BiggJawn]

36. So in other words, you screw yourself up.

" If I don't feel or think I'm sexy, I feel ugly and foolish. What a turnoff!"

What if somebody else thinks you're sexy? Does that help, or do you still feel ugly?

Female sexual response is becoming a huge frustration for me personally. One of Karma's cruel jokes, I guess..... Hell's bells, I could write a book, "When the Estrogen runs out", but I haven't a clue how it ends yet...

[daleo]

19. Perhaps Social Desirability Bias is partially responsible

It is a well known social science finding that people tend to mis-report certain things, such as sex, in the direction that society deems appropriate. Thus, women tend to under-report lifetime sex partners, for example, while men tend to over-report. It could be that women are not reporting arousal in the questionnaire to the extent that physical measures would indicate, because nice girls are not supposed to enjoy graphic sexual imagery. People are not always very concious of their tendency to do this.

[SilasSoule]

21. Pfizer is finding out that Women are more complicated than men?

Well Duh...........

[Just Me]

26. Such an awesome graphic,...

,...and reminds me of a more "worldly" male friend describing his version of gender differences: women are like swiss army knives whereas men are butter knives needing a greater purpose *LOL*!!! I thought that quite spectacular coming from a well-educated Vietnam vet. I love him as an especially endearing friend :D

[Piperay]

22. Golly gee they finally figured out

that "women are more complicated then men", brillent deduction. <sarcasm> :freak:

[Gman]

24. NO MEN BASHING!!

Pfizer only proved what everyone already knew!

[Just Me]

25. Omagosh!!!! This is so freakin' funny!!!

Hee heee heeeeee

Don't get me wrong,...I love men,...but,...

,...ohhhh,...I'll just,....giggle inside and keep my mouth shut on this one :D

[private_ryan]

28. idiots

they should've made Viagra look like diamond or something. I bet it would have worked.

[Andromeda]

30. Gee -- ya think?

They would never do anything as simple as just ASKING any woman.

[gauguin57]

33. european films

Fellow women-of-a-certain-age ... looking for role models -- sexy older women in film? Look no farther than European films, where you CAN find older women who are not relegated to the sexual trash heap ... where women can have older-women's curves and lines in their faces, and they're seen as woo-woo-EXPERIENCED rather than hagged-out and used-up.

Rent the Italian film "Bread and Tulips": Zaftig, middle-aged heroine portrayed as very sexy.

Charlotte Rampling has been gettin' lotsa action in European films of late. And she ain't no spring chicken.

Catherine Deneuve has had a facelift, yeah, but younger men are attracted to her in French films.

In America: Diane Keaton was portrayed as beautiful and sexy in "Something's Gotta Give," and she looks like she's had no work done. And Kim Cattrall -- Samantha's past 40 on Sex & the City, and she winds up with a much-younger Dr. Hunkenstein.

Too bad one must look so hard for role models.

Me ... I get aroused by the idea of a Democrat being elected president in November. If that happens, I won't need no damned Female Viagra!

[nolabels]

39. Turn the stuff off already ( the US corporate stuff anyway)

I am sure a lot that US stuff is produced scientifically to hook an audience, but then, I am also sure some some the junk is on because it pleased the eyes of an old degenerate executive who is looking to re-live his youth.

That is interesting about the European venues. They must have to sell it audience with more cultural education that see age as a normal process in life

And I do thank goodness women are so complicated, life would be so boring any other way. Then also look at the other side, how much more would the gene pool would have suffered. The whole world would be full of stupid men who act just like *, if women hadn't been putting them to the test all these years :-)

[demgrrrll]

40. This is an interesting thread. I am older but I feel very sexy and

and desirable. It is a state of mind. For some
strange reason I don't feel old or unattractive. Sex is great and no, my body isn't perfect. So What. If I do want to improve myself it will be for me. I look at the people in the magazines but I don't generally compare myself. I like fashion and beauty products but I do not feel that they are an "answer" to anything. This is the best time
of my life.

[nolabels]

41. I had a hard time figuring out if I could reply to this

I didn't want to be patronizing, but thought it might be difficult to be humorous and not be crude. I also thought about it off and on during the day but really could come up with nothing really.

Telling others how one feels about their own feelings is very disarming. Could of posted a few questions but that too might have seemed out of place. So in closing i would like to say that I am happy for you, that you are happy for yourself :-)

[short bus president]

42. misleading words

"abandoning its effort to prove that the impotence drug Viagra improves sexual function in women."

Apparently there was an impact on function, just not on desire. This is understandable. Viagra's chemical magic addresses a physical issue, not one of "desire." It is not, contrary to popular belief, intended to be a "make me horny" pill. It is more a "render me capable when I'm already horny" pill.

Perhaps if Pfizer is interested in addressing the issue of sexual desire in women, they should investigate compounds thought to impact sexual desire, not compounds that impact sexual function. Safer formulations of MDMA might be decent candidates.

[nolabels]

43. Viagra improves sexual desire

Looked this link up with that formula above, pretty basic I guess. The difference between a chore or duty as opposed to a pleasure and something on the periphery is in question.

Women getting aroused and sexually adventurous is a rarity as opposed to most males where that would be the norm if not for societal pressures (comparing tendencies IMHO).

This whole thing tends to think me think these people doing this field study are not too smart. One must not need too much common sense to be a doctor or chemist with a degree, if these are the kind of things they are dreaming up.

http://www.hormonejungle.com/libido.php

Sexual Desire and Sexual Response in the Hormone Jungle and Hormone Desert Oasis

Trish Morse
(Ph.D. in literature, University of Chicago, editor of biological science journals)

This is a report from the front lines of research where just the first shots have been fired. They had to hold a conference in 2000 to pin down the terms they might use to begin discussing female sexual dysfunction. (47) So, they really don't know for certain how to help. So, what follows is really a sketchy map of possibilities, not well-worn paths out of this particular thicket.

So far, what the medical researchers know is based on inference, animal studies, and observation of women (including their own reports). With men, they can measure erections. With women, they don't have a standard test for what works or not. They haven't even done controlled studies of testosterone use in women, let alone of the alternatives.(3) So, take the suggestions in this article with a large grain of salt!

In surgical menopause there seem to be two sources of difficulty: lack of hormones, especially testosterone, and problems with the blood supply and nerves in the pelvis. From a biologist's point of view, sexual desire is different from sexual arousal, so some things that help blood flow will help sexual response, but won't do anything for sexual desire. (13)

Problems with Arousal

The first phase of sexual response starts in the brain with the neurotransmitters. They send a message down the nerves that relaxes the blood vessels that lead to the pelvis and start swelling the vagina, begin vaginal lubrication, and send blood to swell the clitoris. So one of the approaches to helping response is to help blood flow. Clogged blood vessels obviously cause problems, decreasing sensation and arousal, so ways can be found to increase blood flow. Nerve damage to the area is something to discuss with your doctor.
(snip) (two or three pages)