Guns-in-parks goes to Tennessee governor

[BlueJessamine]

Source: The Tennessean

A bill to allow guns in state and local parks passed the state House on Tuesday and is now headed to Gov. Phil Bredesen for consideration.

The bill, which passed 54-41, allows handgun carry permit holders to take their weapons into all state and local parks. While the measure goes into effect automatically, local governments can ban guns from its parks, something Nashville lawmakers probably will do.

Metro Council members passed a resolution last week criticizing the legislature's efforts to dictate gun laws for local parks. Mayor Karl Dean signed the resolution Friday.

Metro Parks Director Roy Wilson said allowing guns in local parks would put children at greater risk in Nashville because many of the city's parks are near schools.


Read more: http://www.tennessean.com/article/20090527/NEWS0201/905270417/1001/NEWS/Guns-in-parks+goes+to+Tennessee+governor

[brendan120678]

1. So now that guns are legally allowed in parks, it places...

children in greater danger....because everybody knows that gang-bangers and other criminals would NEVER illegally carry a handgun into a park or near a school zone. That really is a stupid comment by Metro Parks Director Roy Wilson.

[onehandle]

2. Guns are people too. nt

[Hoopla Phil]

3. Texas did this a while back but does not allow for cities

to ban them citing state preemption. Last year a friend of my niece was shot and killed in a park outside Dallas. He had been a star football player and scholarship offers came a-plenty. He tried to mug a senior citizen walking his dog one evening using a handgun. The senior citizen drew his legally carried handgun and fired once killing him. Unfortunately this "star pupil" had gone down the road of addiction to hard drugs and was looking for cash, AT ANY COST, to feed his habit. It is unfortunate that his life was forfeit that evening but I am glad that the senior, who wanted nothing more than to go about his business peacefully, was unharmed.

CHL works!

[fascisthunter]

25. I Lived my Life in a City and Will Never Carry

I'm sorry your niece got gunned down, but adding one more weapon to the mix makes it possible for more than one innocent death. Life isn't a John Wayne movie.

Also, when being held up, the dumbest thing is to draw. No ones life is worth the wallet they carry.

[Hoopla Phil]

28. I think you need to re-read my post.

My niece KNEW a person that "got gunned down". Why? Because the dumb-ass drug addict tried to mug a senior citizen with a gun. AND the senior citizen drew his gun and shot the scum bag once killing him. This was truly the reason for concealed carry and why I legally carry.

[Judi Lynn]

4. Guns should only be allowed in city parks when the gun owners can prove

they are there to do a lot of heavy drinking. It will surely keep crime down if the "bad guys" see a lot of drunken assholes lurching around in our municipal parks waving their weapons around for the world to see. They will behold their might, by god, and bow down to them in awe.

I can only weep in excitement and anticipation.

[Hoopla Phil]

5. It only applies to concealed handguns. Brandishing is a criminal offense and not

what is being targeted by this law.

[spin]

6. That made me laugh...

I'm pro-gun and treat drinking and handling firearms as two activities that should never occur simultaneously (as most responsible firearms owners do).

But the vision of what you proposed was so humorous that I'll just let it go.

[fascisthunter]

7. lot's of paranoids worried about chipmunks

ya know..... gotta be safe, ya never know when somethings gonna happen.. heh, heh, heh.

[Hoopla Phil]

8. See post #3. You're right. You never know. . . .

[Tim01]

9. This will be just as devastating to our communities as allowing gay people to marry.

Oh, wait a minute.........

[depakid]

10. Yep- weekly mass shootings and family killings are right up there

Gotta git the bad guys... before they git you!

[Tim01]

11. You don't like guns. You don't care if they are used to save lives.

If the numbers are put in front of you that show more people are saved than are hurt, you will still want to get rid of them. Your fear of guns is based entirely on feelings, the truth is irrelevant to you.

[depakid]

13. You can spout all the ridiculous counterfactuals that you want

to justify what can only be termed as cowardice. But the epidemiological studies- and the FACTS that they're based on demomstrate that memmbers of households with guns present are many times more likely to become victims of violent crime- or be involved in a tragedy than households without guns.

I know it's a science thing- and reason doesn't quell the fear for some folks.

[Tim01]

14. You be hysterical. I'll be pragmatic.

And if somebody tried to hurt you or someone you love, I'll be happy to step in and try to defend the innocents,bad guys don't get a pass with me. In spite of the fact that I know that to save you or your family will cause you to screech and rave about how awful guns are.
Be well.

[depakid]

15. Project much?

The studies have been posted many times- yet some people still can't get their heads around the notion that having guns endangers your family and others much more than any "bad guys" that might be around.

[Hoopla Phil]

19. Yet no matter how many times the "studies" have been debunked some

still quote them. That doesn't make them any more true.

[Hoopla Phil]

18. LMAO your FACTS have been debunked so many times it is truly pitiful that

you keep espousing them. So how is it a "cowardly" act to be prepared? Do you have an emergency kit in your car? Does that make a person a "coward" if they do? Do you have fire insurance? Does it make a person a "coward" if they do?

So why is it bad for a good guy that goes trough the training and background check to carry a firearm just like an off duty police officer?

[depakid]

20. The studies haven't been "debunked": LOL.

Although it is pretty obvious that people will reach for most any rationalization to "justify" their "need" to have guns around- pretty much anywhere. Peer reviewed studies and rational risk assesment be damned.

And yep, living in that sort of irrational fear- what other word would you use for it?

Seems to me that Horsey at the Seattle PI nails the a parks issue:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

23. I notice you never link to those "peer" reviewed studies funded by the Brady bunch.

[depakid]

26. The ones I've show to YOU many times- and that we've discussed

along with citations to other research with similar findings can be found easily enough on several thread through the search function- and possibly though a nonspammable search engine like pub med or googlescholar.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

35. Like that last one that could prove no link. Got it. Thanks.

[depakid]

42. There are several that discuss the relative risks

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x207734#207750

(using the search feature to find this, I have to say, the sheer number of mass shootings, family shootings reported over the past couple of years is astonishing).

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

47. So you would base policy on news stories? That's foolish.

[Jeep789]

103. I'll judge by local news stories.

Gun deaths in my community has been caused by legal gun owners shooting themselves, a spouse, their family members shooting a friend, sibling or parent or by law enforcement (prematurely) shooting a suspect (in that order).

Statistics in my community for those that have used a gun to effectively protect themselves from danger are still zero as far as I know.

[Hoopla Phil]

29. Um yes, they have many times. YOU have read them but turn a blind eye to the truth.

__________________________________________________
Myth: You are more likely to be injured or killed using a gun for self-defense
Fact: You are far more likely to survive a violent assault if you defend yourself with a gun. In episodes where a robbery victim was injured, the injury/defense rates were:119
Resisting with a gun 6%
Did nothing at all 25%
Resisted with a knife 40%
Non-violent resistance 45%
___________________________________________________

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.0/GunFacts5-0-screen.pdf

[depakid]

55. I think I'll stick to the peer reviewed science (as opposed to propaganda sheets)

Though you are proving the point about obsessives going to any lengths to justify their fears and rationalize their actions.

The anti-vaccination crowd is quite "skilled" at this, too.

[Hoopla Phil]

57. Yep, and the peers said it was bunk. LOL

[Lorien]

60. 47 times more likely, according to some in law enforcement

my father learned that fact while taking a gun safety course at the State prison where he was employed.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

64. "Fact" that's some funny shit.

[ManiacJoe]

94. Probably the always misquoted Kellerman study?

[Hoopla Phil]

16. The mass shootings are from the bad guys. What is wrong with

a GOOD guy being able to carry a concealed handgun after getting the training and background check?

[depakid]

21. The men who shot their families and girlfriend- or even some of the mass shooters

Many of them thought they were (and people might have agreed that they were) "the good guys" when they bought their guns and brought them home.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

24. So what percentage of concealed carry permit holders commit murder? 0.0001% and you call us cowards.

[depakid]

27. Several of the recent mass shooters and family killers had the appropriate permits

and yeah, you tell me what one ought to call someone who goes through life feeling such fear that they need to be armed everywhere- or who feels that they "need" the firepwoer of an assault weapon to "protect themselves?"

Sounds pretty cowardly to me.

[Hoopla Phil]

31. Care to site those? For a person that likes to through the "coward" word around you

seem to have an irrational fear of guns. What was it that Sigmund said about that???

[depakid]

33. Look 'em up- the point was made on DU in several of the recent shootings

And nope- I don't walk around afraid, I simply view this as a public health matter.

Or, in some cases- a mental health matter.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

69. In other words you can't cite them because they don't exist.

[Hoopla Phil]

85. FAIL! Cannot cite it LOL. But why let that get in the way of good rhetoric. LMAO!!!

[X_Digger]

32. The "need" canard along with the 'assault weapons=more firepower' meme

..all in one post. Bravo! Never mind that most "assault weapons" are low powered compared to grandpa's hunting rifle, we don't outlaw things based on need, and I can't remember a recent shooter having a concealed carry permit (or did you intentionally try to muddy the waters between someone who purchased a gun legally and the licensed CCW holders referenced in the post you replied to who are less likely even than cops to misuse a firearm?)

[depakid]

34. Another interesting point an Aussie made to me about the feeling the need

had to do with empowerment (or actually the lack thereof).

She's seen a bit of America over the past two years- and has heard and read a lot about other regions, where gun obsessions are more prevalent.

Her take (in addition to the fear) is that due to the nature of the government, the lack of healthcare, job security, safety net, concerns over their financial situations- and others getting ahead of them (and the pervasive attitude that there's NOTHING they can do about it) leaves people feeling a need to compensate. Guns- and assault weapons suit seem to suit that need.

Aussies, on the other hand, would look at someone carrying around a gun- or owning an assault weapon and say What do you need that for, mate? You gonna shoot somebady? And suffice it to say, you wouldn't be very popular- as in, people would think something was wrong with you.

Now, Australia doesn't have America's crime rate- and needless to say, they put a stop to their mass shootings (and damn near all of the family shootings) but they still live in place full of the world's deadliest things. But they're not particularly afraid of them- they just give them the respect that they deserve- whereas Americans would be more apt to haul off and kill 'em.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

37. You said you were afraid of those scary sharks. How frequent are shark attacks?

[depakid]

38. Depends where you are and what time of year

Doesn't keep us fom swimming, surfing, diving and snorkling. In fact, if you go up to the barrier reef and take a dive boat out, you can feed 'em.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCahODOQ16A

That said, when there are reports of whites, hammerheads and bulls in an area- it's usually best to stay out of the water.

These guys also cause a bit of stir when swimming around where they shouldn't be:


On Tuesday a large saltwater crocodile was spotted near Coral Bay in Western Australia. This was the first time in 10 years they had found a crocodile this far south on the west coast. The problem was they had lost sight of it again and the Easter long weekend was quickly approaching.

http://thecrocspot.blogspot.com/2009/04/coral-bay-crocodile.html

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

39. The chances of being attacked by a shark or crocodile are ridiculously low, nothing to be scared of.

[depakid]

43. Maybe in the states

They happen with a bit more frequency down under- and when they're reported in the area- it's common sense and respect more than fear that keeps a lot of folks from going in and having a surf or a swim.

That said- your (or a household member's) chances of being killed wounded in your home are pretty damn low- but are increased significantly when there's a firearm present.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

44. Wrong, since 1990 61% of the shark attacks in the world occurred in US coastal waters.

Florida alone has had more attacks than all of Australia. Your fear is based in ignorance.

David

[depakid]

46. Look at the population levels- didn't think of that, eh?

We did a similar dive trip to the you tube deal out of Cairns- except that we did hand feeding from the bait bottle. Saw a stonefish, too. Ugly critter.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

48. Do you honestly think that you are at more risk of shark attack than I am at risk of a violent crime

[depakid]

50. Where was that posted?

:crazy:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

51. So you don't believe that? A simple yes or no will do.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

53. Still waiting on that yes or no.

[Hoopla Phil]

87. I'd like to see an answer to that too. Well?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

49. Who are these cowards? Police and soldiers are the only ones who do what you describe.

You seem to be avoiding this question.

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

65. Let me just say how shocked I am that you don't have the courage to answer my questions.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

45. Again who are these cowards? Police and soldiers are the only ones who do what you describe.

You seem to be avoiding this question.

David

[Judi Lynn]

56. Sometimes when people don't answer they are elsewhere. n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

59. If he hadn't responded to several other posts at that time I might believe that.

[Lorien]

61. If you think that you need to be armed at all times you are obviously a coward

because you live in fear.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

62. Police officers and soldiers are the only ones I know that are armed at all times, are they cowards?

[ManiacJoe]

96. Or just prepared for an unlikely event.

If you are stuck playing the odds, why not push the odds in your favor as much as possible?

[friendly_iconoclast]

63. You're more than twice as likely to be raped in Australia as the States

Doesn't count with you because it does not involve guns?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

66. How dare you confront Crocodile Dundee with facts.

[depakid]

67. The deal with that is that due to public information, awareness and advocacy campains- women

are MUCH more likely to report instances of sexual abuse than in the United States.

Therein lies the trouble with those who don't understand context and analysis- they end up spouting off about shallow things about raw numbers- like this bogus comparison, when in fact, they don't know what they're talking about.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

71. And you have a peer reviewed study to back that bullshit up to eh?

[depakid]

74. It's pretty common knowledge and precisely what one would expect

One of those paradoxes- put more cops on the street and you see an increase in the crime statistics. Not because there's more crime- but because it's observed and recorded more frequently.

When I get back, maybe I'll hit the University library and look for some materials. Might make for an interesting paper.

BTW: my interest in in discussion, not interrogation, which tends to be your modus operandi on some of these threads.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

77. So now it's more cops that cause more rapes to be reported?

[depakid]

81. Are you able to think abstractly at all?

As in- conceptualize?

One wonders sometimes....

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

90. When someone makes wild claims and refuses to back them up, sometimes it's hard to follow.

[Hoopla Phil]

92. This is not an abstract exercise to explore our feelings. This is real life and

what works vs. what doesn't. You have yet to be able to state any facts that bolster your position. And the anti's say the pro 2A crowd live in a fantasy land?!

[depakid]

95. Sort of answers the question- neither of you know what abtract thought is

and are apparently incapable of it.

No sense in going any further with statistical analysis, because you won't be able to see anything other than raw numbers. Sad actually.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

97. So that would be another concession of defeat by Crocodile Dundee.

[depakid]

99. Actually, what I'm going to do is sign off from this pointless colloquy

and leave you two? to find someone else to play tit for tat with.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

100. Bye now you big courageous crocodile wrestler.

[Hoopla Phil]

111. Bu-buy.

[Hoopla Phil]

108. No, the only questions are the ones you refuse to answer. Questions like

cite your assertions? Do you have proof? What is your evidence? Those "pointless" questions that are based in reality.

[Hoopla Phil]

91. I guess that is another "discussion" point you cannot cite as being other that B.S.

To have a discussion you need to use facts, not what you "think" is correct.

[Hoopla Phil]

89. Care to cite that? Oh wait. . . .

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

36. Who are these people? Police and soldiers are the only ones who do what you describe.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

40. So several of the recent mass shooters had CCW permits? Calling bullshit on that one.

[depakid]

68. You might want to hold off a bit on the bravado hawse- it'll get you into trouble sometimes

There have already been three confirmed mass shootings (among other homicides and violent crimes) committed by concealed carry permit holders this year: Neo-Nazi Richard Poplawski killed three police officers and wounded one in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on April 4; Michael McLendon killed ten and wounded six in Alabama on March 10; and Frank Garcia killed four and wounded one in upstate New York on February 14.

http://www.csgv.org/site/c.pmL5JnO7KzE/b.3924845/apps/s/content.asp?ct=7021445

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

70. So you didn't die? Care to answer those other questions now.

Sorry if I find your "source" lacking credibility, I'm sure you understand.

David

[depakid]

72. You can lead a horse to water....

As it happens, it's a matter of public record, which means you can look it up yourself

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

73. I'm shocked that someone as fearless as you is scared to answer those other questions.

[depakid]

75. See # 74 above.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

78. More avoidance. I really expected you to man up. That's a shame.

[depakid]

79. How about a compromise- you rephrase a question- and try not to be inane

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

80. Who are the cowards you speak of so frequently here?

[depakid]

82. Already explained ad nauseum throughout the thread.

and no- they're not cops and soldiers...:eyes:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

83. You clearly aren't interested in a constructive dialog.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

84. So they are fictional characters in your mind?

[depakid]

86. read the posts throughout thread- as I have a feeling it's about to be retired

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

88. I have the only people who do as you describe are cops and soldiers, you say they aren't cowards so

they must be fictional people.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

76. I notice they conveniently left out any link to the source of the reports.

[Hoopla Phil]

93. I don't recall those people being CHL holders. Can you confirm your assertion please?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

98. Of course he can't.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

101. Poplawski was Dishonorably Discharged from the Marines. He didn't have a CCW permit.

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/19096134/detail.html

[Hoopla Phil]

110. BURN, and strike one.

[Hoopla Phil]

109. Still cannot back up that claim I see. FAIL FAIL FAIL. Ha Ha Ha.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

41. Who are these cowards? Police and soldiers are the only ones who do what you describe.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

52. Do you think it's cowardly to avoid a question?

[NashVegas]

113. You Are Talking About the South, Where More Murders Are Passion Crimes Than Random

Tonight on the news, a woman who was pro-carriers in restaurants used the fact her husband was shot in a bar as a reason to allow guns in them. She said if she had her gun, she could have protected him.

What she didn't say was that the guy who did the shooting was also a permit-holder.

[Hoopla Phil]

30. Please tell me if that scenario has any more frequency that police officers.

There is nothing wrong with a good guy that gets the training and background check carrying a concealed firearm except in your mind.

[DrCory]

102. Are You Suggesting...

That ANY gun owner may suddenly mutate into a murderer BECAUSE he/she possesses a firearm?

[Jeep789]

104. Hmmm, can any gun owner suddenly develop a mental illness?

Probably. Until we know more about mental illness, I suggest the possibility is statistically high that at some point in life an individual has a great potential to display some sort of mental instability that makes gun ownership in society problematic.

[DrCory]

107. Interesting...

As you suggest ALL of us have a statistically high probability of developing mental instability/illness at some point in our lives, then may I assume that ALL of us pose a threat to public safety? Additionally, since many homicides are committed with weapons other than firearms, does that make possession of ANY object capable of inflicting bodily harm problematic?

[depakid]

105. This guy did:

Professor George Zinkhan

http://www.kfbol.com/newap/D97PTEG80.html

[DrCory]

106. Are You Claiming...

He commited homicide BECAUSE he possessed a firearm? That was my question after all.

If you are, then what of this incident:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-dutch-family-attack1-2009may01,1,2520304.story

Should we also prohibit the possession of motor vehicles?

[gratuitous]

12. Where's the companion bill?

I want to see who's got the stones to pass the first-in-the-nation CCW law for the legislative chamber, the governor's mansion and the state supreme court. Of all the places in the world where one's life, liberty and property are most at risk, I'd say these three have to be at or near the top of any list.

[Hoopla Phil]

17. That's not a bad idea when you think about it.

How many legislators would continue to so boldly trample on citizens rights if they know the peanut gallery is full of armed citizens. You may actually be on to something there.

[Endangered Specie]

22. The way I see it...

if CCW is not allowed in a federal/state govt building, then top notch security along with metal detectors, and armed guards/police at every entrance should be required.

Heck, as a matter of fact, lets apply that law everywhere... businesses, educational institutions, and public venues which do not allow CCW are required to provide said security. Declaring a place to be gun free requires the owner to pay for the means to ensure it *stays* that way.

[Vidar]

54. He'll probably toss in free ammo.

[Blandocyte]

58. Local Gov't Can Still Control

I'm glad local governments can still ban guns from their parks. The CHL people can go to parks where concealed carry is allowed just like they go elsewhere when a business posts the sign informing them that guns are not allowed. Yogi Bear is after their pic-a-nic baskets, you know, and he doesn't care who gets hurt.

[NashVegas]

112. What Some of You Need to Know

There are four gun-control liberalization laws in the running right now:

One is the parks bill, above, which I will get back to.

Second is guns in restaurants and bars.

Third will allow permit holders to carry loaded rifles and shotguns in their vehicles.

Fourth will seal up the records database, so that only select officials will have access to look-up whether or not someone has a carry permit. This is HIGHLY relevant because the Memphis Commercial Appeal and other news outlets have demonstrated that it's possible for felons to get permits. And the legislation is being rammed through because those outlets embarrassed the shit out of state and county safety officials who issued those permits.

Now, about that first one. The parks. For some reason, Tennessee's conservative alpha men (who resemble Joe the Plummer in their choice of haircuts) and women (who are as batshit crazy as Sarah Palin, have taken it upon themselves to promote the idea that our parks are full of nefarious felons and it's not safe to go in one without a gun. Load. Of. Shit.

In fact, one of the comment writers made a pitch for the idea that Warner Parks in Nashville is unsafe if you aren't packing.

Load of shit. I know because I use both of them and not only is it in the whitest part of town, but the majority of people you see there, as another writer said, are upscale women in their yoga pants. Joggers, of course. It's a safe bet the average drug dealer isn't going to do the more strenuous trails, or Joe the Plummer for that matter.

Speaking of drugs, one of the pro-gun crowd seems to be using the argument that guns are necessary in public parks so his drug-dealing buddy will feel safer if he does business at Shelby Park, near the 'hood. I'd love to see him write his local rep. about that!

[X_Digger]

114. I used to live in Bristol (VA, not TN)..

.. and we always found it funny that we had to unload / zip up our long guns when traveling to go hunting down in Madisonville (south of Knoxville.) Same people, going back and forth from Bristol / Johnson City / Kingsport to Abingdon / Wytheville / Emory (all up and down I-81), guns in gun racks perfectly acceptable here, OMG guns over there.

Regarding privatization of CCW records- absent the malfeasance you point to, I can see a need to make them private. When I worked for CASA as a child advocate, I dealt with battered women who 1) got a restraining order against their spouse / ex, 2) picked up and moved, and 3) applied for a CCW license (in that order.) Making the names of CCW holders public would put them at risk from abusive spouses and potentially make them the target of criminals looking to steal a weapon. CCW holders have a saying, 'Concealed means concealed!' which admonishes licensees to not blab about their license, don't get a CCW sticker for the bumper of their truck, and don't carelessly allow their concealed weapon to be seen. It defeats the purpose- the same way making public the names of those who have permits.