For Explorer Scouts, Good Deeds Have Whole New Meaning (anti-terrorism+illegal immigration, pro-gun)

[onehandle]

Source: New York Times

IMPERIAL, Calif. — Ten minutes into arrant mayhem in this town near the Mexican border, and the gunman, a disgruntled Iraq war veteran, has already taken out two people, one slumped in his desk, the other covered in blood on the floor.

The responding officers — eight teenage boys and girls, the youngest 14 — face tripwire, a thin cloud of poisonous gas and loud shots — BAM! BAM! — fired from behind a flimsy wall. They move quickly, pellet guns drawn and masks affixed.

“United States Border Patrol! Put your hands up!” screams one in a voice cracking with adolescent determination as the suspect is subdued.

It is all quite a step up from the square knot.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/14explorers.html

---

Because somebody needs to fuel the hate groups of the future.

[virginia mountainman]

1. I wonder...

Do you associate Pro Gun folks, with hate groups?

I ask this, because of the way you worded the subject of your post.

If you do, please explain.

[rfranklin]

3. Did either of you read the article?

It seem this program is designed to recruit for the border patrol, not for hate groups. And there is nothing about being a pro gun group other than mentioning that they get to play with guns. As one girl said, "it gets me excited!"

The indoctrination focuses on exercises that represent very little of what a border patrol officer would be doing 99 percent of the time. The whole scenario of terrorists on a bus is particularly stupid.

[virginia mountainman]

4. I did not post a question about the article..

I asked a question of the OP, and the way he worded his post...

He seems to think, being Pro Gun, is akin to a Hate Crime, I would like to know did he make a mistake, or did he intend to slander a large number of DU'ers with that.

[nichomachus]

17. Did you?

This is about training 14-year-old kids to be a paramilitary force. This is the latest trend in US schools -- teaching kids as young as 8 to be paramilitary.

It's not "hate groups" as much as "Hitler Youth."



This isn't the Boy Scouts I knew. We helped the elderly, collected food for the needy. etc.

[Mike Daniels]

28. Explorer Scouts are different than your standard Boy Scouts

I was involved in one focused on "exploring" law enforcement/police department careers during my HS years. That said, the closest we got to anything like the scenario above was going to the police range and firing off some target practice or visiting the county lock-up.

[Kolesar]

29. I got to disassemble, clean, and reassemble a 7.62 mm minigun in my Explorer Post

The post was sponsored by the local Air Force Reserve base.

I still have not found climate protection mentioned at the Boy Scouts website, though, and I am very disappointed. I have been watching for years.

[CRK7376]

31. Check out the National BSA site

BSA requires all registered adults to consent to a background/local records check. Additionally, BSA requires adult leaders to complete various forms of training, some online such as the links below, other training is usually done on the weekend in a day or two. All designed to help orient adult leaders into Scouting, keeping the kids safe etc….

Start with the Youth Protection site. Follow it with more general/specific activity/safety training.

http://www.scouting.org/YouthProtection.aspx

http://www.scouting.org/HealthandSafety.aspx

[Wednesdays]

30. Even if you're anti gun-control, that one statement should give pause

"...they get to play with guns. As one girl said, 'it gets me excited!'"

Excited? I mean, doesn't that make you a little concerned? I mean, set aside the fact that they're replicas of deadly weapons and think about that statement as a reflection of her mentality over certain objects. As if she said, "Wow, bananas get me excited!" :/

[saigon68]

5. Lots of folks here don't like guns

They think they are icky. They have never owned one, never used one, and they use the term "GUN" like the dopes at Faux news use the word liberal or gay as a buzzword to trash you out as a sadist, nazi, murderer etc

[virginia mountainman]

11. Yep, your right..

And it gets old too...

[nichomachus]

19. No, the pro-gun rants are what are tiresome

Find another drug.

[virginia mountainman]

49. Drug???

What are you talking about?!

[nichomachus]

18. Except this isn't about "guns"

This is about recruiting pubescent kids into the military.

[Thothmes]

48. Who do think makes up the ranks of E-1 throught E-4 in any of

the armed services of the United States. Young kid. 17-19 year olds.

[The Stranger]

34. What strikes me about the gun debate is the black and white nature of it, even here.

If the Right Wing Extremist groups are the only ones with the guns, then what happens when they back their words with actions and really do take aim at the Liberal Enemy? There have already been shooting rampages where the shooter is decrying "Liberals" in his murdering people randomly.

(Insert here the quote from Mao about power and the barrel of a gun.)

[Paladin]

51. It's Not The Guns That Are "Icky"

What's "icky"is the gun militancy movement and the disturbing mindset that goes with it: right-wing, confrontational, law of the jungle, violence-hopeful, backward, and overwhelmingly anti-Democratic Party.

Yet again, daily evidence of all this is available down in DU's gun forum...

[onehandle]

6. I wonder...

Do you think the Minutemen are a well intentioned group armed with good feelings?

[virginia mountainman]

8. That was not the qestion...NT

[saigon68]

2. SWAT training

Cathy Noriego, also 16, said she was attracted by the guns. The group uses compressed-air guns — known as airsoft guns, which fire tiny plastic pellets — in the training exercises, and sometimes they shoot real guns on a closed range.

“I like shooting them,” Cathy said. “I like the sound they make. It gets me excited.”

(My kind of girl--- I wonder if she deer hunts)


Many law enforcement officials, particularly those who work for the rapidly growing Border Patrol, part of the Homeland Security Department, have helped shape the program’s focus and see it as preparing the Explorers as potential employees. The Explorer posts are attached to various agencies, including the Federal Bureau of Investigation and local police and fire departments, that sponsor them much the way churches sponsor Boy Scout troops.

“Our end goal is to create more agents,” said April McKee, a senior Border Patrol agent and mentor at the session here.

[markbark]

13. My only problem

with that picture is that those guys are WAYYYY too close together.
One well placed shot could take out that whole squad.

Spread out, guys!

Other than that, good on 'em!

For those on the board who don't like the gun culture: Didja ever stop to think that if more of us lefties got into (or is that "infiltrated?") the military/law enforcement career path, we wouldn't have had so many of the Abu Ghraib/torture/brutality stories over the years?

Jus' Sayin'

--MAB

[rfranklin]

16. Still have to follow orders of the wingnuts in charge...

Not many enlisted have the balls to invoke the Geneva Conventions.

[nichomachus]

21. Once more -- it's not about guns

They're not teaching marksmanship. They're teaching these kids to be a paramilitary or mercenary force.

[Thothmes]

47. Just like in the 60s

[XemaSab]

42. My problem with the picture:

Do they really think they're sneaking up on that bus?

The bus has mirrors, kids. :P

[saigon68]

44. Actually NOT

I won't go into detail here, but that's how these soldiered up Dick Tracy's are trained to enter a door or other confined space.

[Dogtown]

7. Jugend n/t

[saigon68]

9. Ah yes

Another "long honored tradition" in certain circles

</sarcasm>

[Dogtown]

12. "Hate" is easier to learn

than tolerance.

[peace frog]

10. Brownshirts and jackboots, check

Unleash the Hitler youth!

:puke:

[Politicub]

15. Decades of anti-gay bigotry + training to fear and kill the "other"

Is a toxic brew indeed.

[Buzz Clik]

26. No shit. Even the uniforms are similar ... minus the vests.

[Politicub]

14. Wow - brave new world for the US

You usually see photos of teens with machine guns in more third world environs than the US.

[nichomachus]

20. Yup -- we are becoming Somalia n/t

[snooper2]

25. that's just stupid-

nt

[nichomachus]

32. I agree -- training pubescent kids as paramilitary forces is really stupid n/t

[Thothmes]

46. Why.

[nichomachus]

22. Gun advocates -- please stop your knees from jerking for one second and think this through

It's not about guns or anti-guns.

It's about teaching 14-year-old kids to become a paramilitary or mercenary force. This is an extremely disturbing story.

Of course, it's been going on for years. In CA, they have Young Marines in the schools. Kids as young as 8 are admitted into this paramilitary training and the Marines have personnel in the schools to run the paramilitary exercises.

Once in a while, I see these children all decked out in their camo gear, berets, jump boots -- huffing along like the Hitler Youth. It's very frightening.

[izquierdista]

23. I've seen this program before

Some of the faces in the new photo look Hispanic, but I am willing to bet that they will denounce their own if the Leader asks it of them.

[X_Digger]

24. Ehn, what's the problem?

Looks like they have a lot of different programs ran by different professions; for a teenager thinking about those careers, this sounds like a good way to get a leg up. No, it's not completely realistic (I doubt they get a stack of after-action reports to fill out about every round they fired, etc) but if these kids are considering law enforcement as a career, why not?

[CRK7376]

27. This is frustrating!

As a life-long Democrat, gun-owning, Eagle Scout, military officer and life-long member of the BSA, I have concerns with this particular Explorer Post. This one particular Explorer Post in California does not reflect what BSA or most Explorer Posts do nation-wide. Each Post is sponsored by an outside organization that the kids are interested in, many are career or specific subject oriented, and others are High Adventure encompassing hiking, climbing, white water adventures…. Stuff like that. As a youth member of several BSA Explorer Posts, I had a great time being part of a Co-Ed organization that went into depth on topics I was interested in. I participated in a Medical Explorer Post, a Native American Post and a High Adventure Post. Great fun, good leadership and adult role models who shaped me into the adult I am today…..
My local council currently has a couple of Police/Sherriff Explorer Posts. Nothing wrong with that and it does help kids find out about that particular organization in depth. Where the California Post seems to go over the top for me is with what appears to be an extreme exposure/focus on the tactical side of Law/Border Patrol Enforcement. Yes, that’s part of Law Enforcement, but it should not be the primary focus. Going to a shooting range, ok for one or two weekends over the course of a year. Learning about gun safety/marksmanship is ok, but should not be the primary focus. Teaching kids to conduct hostage rescues, room clearing stacks, takedowns etc…is over the top in my books. I would not want my children or their friends involved in this type of activity. Could they visit a police/law enforcement range and watch police rehearse their actions…sure, but only watching, not actually participating.
BSA is not a paramilitary, Hitler-Youth, or gun crazed bunch of rabid yokels. Do some units and leaders go overboard? Absolutely, and this crowd in Southern California seems to be one of them. By and large most BSA Explorer Posts are for young adults that teach/expose the kids to career options and offer a safe, controlled environment for learning or experiencing possibilities. I don’t support or condone this particular BSA Explorer Post in California that was written about, but I do support BSA and Explorer Posts otherwise.

[Xithras]

38. FYI, there was a major change in the Explorer structure 10 years ago.

A number of years ago the BSA split the Explorers program in two. The Outdoor program is called Venturing. It lets girls in, but maintains the uniforms and the anti-gay stance. The Venturing program includes all outdoor activities like hiking, mountain climbing, etc.

The Explorer Scout Program is now completely independent and has done away with the traditional "scouting" aspects, including the oaths, uniforms, camping, etc. It's now purely a career training program for youth. The only qualifications for the program are based on age and grade point average.

Part of the split was actually due to their anti-gay stance. A lot of agencies were starting to question their affiliation with the Scouts because of their discriminatory policies, and the BSA risked seeing a very successful and useful program crumble. Rather than let that happen, they forked the program, removed it from the traditional scouting structure, and opened it up for everyone. Lots of fundies whined and complained that they were caving in to political pressure, but the BSA saw the writing on the wall and did the right thing for once.

[jody]

39. Xithras, it's not fair to use facts to fight ignorance & stupidity.

:thumbsup: :toast:

[Thothmes]

45. This stuff was done as far back as the early 60s

The Explorer post I was a member of learned how to handle the 45 Colts, M-14 rifle, M79 grenade launcher, Ma Deuce 50cal machine guns and hand grenades, complements of the Washington Nationl Guard Unit at Fort Vancouver Washington.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[jody]

35. Apparently from your comment "fuel the hate groups of the future" you oppose the Border Patrol so I

know you oppose the president who commands federal law enforcement and establishes policies for their use.

Please provide we DUers with copies of your letters to Obama protesting his use of Border Patrol personnel to enforce federal law.

[onehandle]

40. Here you go...

All of your answers and more are here...

http://www.minutemanhq.com/

[jody]

41. My #35 was about your belief. Have you written Obama protesting his Border Patrol policies? n/t

[Xithras]

36. The Explorer program is about exploring jobs.

It's a way for youth to familiarize themselves with jobs they might want ahead of time. There are Police Explorers, Fire Explorers, and (apparently) Border Patrol Explorers, but there are also Aviation Explorers, Medical Explorers, Legal Explorers, Engineering Explorers, etc. It's not an indoctrination program, but a way for kids to see how these jobs work by training and spending time with the people who perform them today.

Unlike the BSA, the Explorer program also doesn't have silly religious rules, discriminate based on sexual gender or orientation, or do any of the other acts we normally complain about. The program merely acts as a conduit to connect kids to the jobs they're interested in, and deals with the liability and legalities that go along with having a kid in those situations.

FWIW, my daughter (who wants to be a doctor) is considering joining the Medical Explorers program. I've already looked into it, and have no objections.

[jody]

37. Will their service be recognized under the Edward M. Kennedy Serve America Act Obama signed 4/21/09?

[krabigirl]

43. I think I need to convince my husband to move back to France and take us with him

What can Obama do to stop this? At the very least, I don't want to raise my kids in California.

[Kickin_Donkey]

50. Hitler Youth ...

Just one more increment of fascism engulfing this country.

It's stunning how many "liberals" in this thread don't see it and actually endorse it.

Sticking their heads in the stand. The fools. (Not to mention the gun freaks getting their panties in a wad)