Teen piracy suspect raises legal, moral issues

[RamboLiberal]

Source: Breitbart.com/AP

WASHINGTON (AP) - U.S. officials, in deciding how to handle the lone surviving pirate from the hostage-taking of an American ship captain, must weigh the violence of the suspect's actions against his surprisingly young age.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Monday the four pirates were between 17 and 19 years old.

Authorities had previously put the surviving Somali suspect's age at somewhere from 16 to 20. He surrendered Sunday, leaving a covered lifeboat where he and three other pirates had been holding merchant Capt. Richard Phillips hostage. Shortly after his surrender, the three others were killed by snipers. Phillips was rescued unharmed.

"Untrained teenagers with heavy weapons," Gates told a group of students and faculty at the Marine Corps War College. "Everybody in the room knows the consequences of that."

Read more: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D97HQFGO1&show_article=1

[Taverner]

1. Shit - he's not a lost cause

He's just in the wrong place

Seriously - I have no problem with killing the other pirates, and taking this guy and rearing him right

[amyrose2712]

4. "Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Monday the four pirates were between 17 and 19 years old"

What makes the other 3 any different?

[Taverner]

11. We caught this one alive

I assume we are talking about the one that "turned himself in" (he was actually a go between, but essentially turned himself in. He should not be in Somalia - retaliation would kill him.)

[MADem]

26. He was the one who went aboard the ship to negotiate for the ransom.

That's why he wasn't dead.

When the ones with Phillips started knocking him around, the "negotiator" became a prisoner.

[ohio2007]

40. ahh, a seasoned veteran of the African "infantry" units reared by gang leaders

He may get his turn in jail, then thrown back to become a gang leader himself someday.

But the law states for what he did is;


"life in prison"

shit,
we have 11 yr olds shooting and killing in our own country as it is. Treat him like a 19 yr old punk here and send him to a life of easy living in jail.

he'll have a better standard of living then 98% of "children" his own age from that shithole called Somalia

just a fact

he's on easy street.

prison food will be a godsend to him....
jmo

[depakid]

44. I suppose we ought to add Ohio to the list

of places whose citizens repeatedly shame and embarrass themselves- and the rest of us.

http://www.aclu.org/crimjustice/juv/38701prs20090210.html

[ohio2007]

62. some day kid, you'll actually learn about life in Africa

reality on the ground isn't reported in your rose colored glasses kool aid media is it.

It's all Lion King and happily ever after from here on ;)

[MADem]

52. Actually, that "kid" will probably leave a large house, a large car and a couple of wives behind

Assuming he's a "successful pirate" that is.

He'll have to kiss his satellite phone, satellite TV and all his creature comforts farewell.

Of course, if he goes home and the new Somali government gets a hold of him, he'd be executed.

So life in prison might not be a bad deal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7650415.stm

"They have money; they have power and they are getting stronger by the day," says Abdi Farah Juha who lives in the regional capital, Garowe.

"They wed the most beautiful girls; they are building big houses; they have new cars; new guns," he says.

"Piracy in many ways is socially acceptable. They have become fashionable."

Most of them are aged between 20 and 35 years - in it for the money. ...Once a pirate makes his fortune, he tends to take on a second and third wife - often very young women from poor nomadic clans, who are renowned for their beauty.

But not everyone is smitten by Somalia's new elite.

"This piracy has a negative impact on several aspects of our life in Garowe," resident Mohamed Hassan laments.

He cites an escalating lack of security because "hundreds of armed men" are coming to join the pirates.

They have made life more expensive for ordinary people because they "pump huge amounts of US dollars" into the local economy which results in fluctuations in the exchange rate, he says.

Their lifestyle also makes some unhappy.

"They promote the use of drugs - chewing khat and smoking hashish - and alcohol," Mr Hassan says.

[depakid]

53. You don't know that-

which is why we ought to have an international system set up composed of people who actually understand what's going on- to guard against false attribution and punishment obsessive attitudes.

[MADem]

54. Anyone who's out there doing that kind of heavy lifting is getting well paid for it.

These guys aren't innocent little dumbasses. They're thugs with expertise.

You seem to forget that these guys started out shaking down a container ship. The pirates were unable to take control of the ship ONLY because the skipper, quick as a fucking wink, switched control of the vessel to engineering and those guys locked the door. The best the pirates could do, because they were on their way to Kenya otherwise, regardless if they shot and killed every sumbitch aboard on the other side of the locked engineering hatch, was take the deal Phillips offered--take him as hostage and get off. Otherwise, they WERE Kenya-bound. The strategy that Phillips executed worked perfectly. He minimized casualties and saved both his ship and his crew.

Ignore the source if you'd like. Don't read the link that describes the lifestyle of these "fashionable" assholes. It doesn't matter to me. I've had my eye on this situation for over a decade and I would wager I have a better understanding than most of these bleeding heart poor-little-pirate cheerleaders. It's been getting worse by the year. It's past time this situation was addressed, in concert with the new Somali government and the UN.

Of course, if we send this one guy that we turned from a "pirate negotiator" into a "prisoner" with three head shots home to Somalia (perhaps you'd like that, eh?) and deliver him into the hands of the new Somali government, guess what happens to your poor downtrodden pirate?

Not prison, not "rehab," not a juvenile diversion program....nope. Good old DEATH. The Final Frontier. Talk to those guys about "false attribution" and "punishment obsessive attitudes." They've decided that they aren't about to play with these idiots anymore. God help those guys if this government ever achieves critical mass and can project power throughtout the countryside. They are interested in rejoining the old "community of nations" and if they have to shoot a few thugs to make it happen, they're ready to roll.

It's why France hasn't transferred custody of the thugs they have. They don't "do" that death penalty thing.

:eyes:

[depakid]

55. You don't know any of that either!

It's a BBC article- which may or may not have anything to do with this kid's circumstances (or anyone else in custody, for that matter).

and btw: the link you provided in another response, said NOTHING at all about France's plans for the Somali's they have custody- and certainly didn't say anything about the death penalty. Perhaps you cited the wrong article in your rush to judgment?

[MADem]

56. OK, Pollyanna. You wanna link? I'll give you a link.

Sarkozy said he intends to bring the six pirates – now held on a French frigate – to France. But he also left open the possibility that Somalia could keep them, if "we are certain that these pirates will be tried, sentenced and will serve out their punishments.“

http://www.welt.de/english-news/article2452613/French-troops-rescue-hostages-from-Somali-pirates.html


What happens to pirates after they are arrested? In Somalia, seven of them face the death penalty, though the punishment would be a first in the region in which they are held, Puntland, according to one report flagged by EagleSpeak.

In France, where six others are held, a lighter sentence can be expected. Capital punishment was abolished there in 1981, and authorities have refused to turn over suspects without guarantees that they would not be executed.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/somali-pirates-facing-death-penalty/



What, you need a link for every frigging sentence now? Even the obvious stuff, like France's well-established view on the DP? Whatever. Google's your friend, too.

[depakid]

57. Why be a name caller?

and attribute deals to people- and insult their intelligence with respect to the facts of the matter at hand- which you clearly have no knowledge of beyond what you read in some BBC article.

Yes, most of us are well aware of France (and most every other civilized nations' position on the death penalty).

The question was and is, what will France and Russia and now the US do with these folks (and kids) -and what should be done?

Sounds like Sarkozy's looking through the options. What's the Ministry of Justice's view of the appropiate disposition?

I guarantee it's not going to be life in prison for juvenile offenders.

[MADem]

59. Why treat the most benign sentences with childish suspicion?

"You don't KNOW that!"

Why, yes, I do.

Do some research. Learn about this issue. These aren't poor little children who are sent out to do this work--the ones who are doing the "shaking down" are making some serious coin.

Who knows how France will view them? You'd have to speak to someone with a better grasp of French jurisprudence than I possess. I do know they're not too pleased with these criminals. I also know that the UK is stashing the pirates they've captured in Kenya.

I do believe the UN needs to coordinate a multinational strategy to eradicate these guys. They need to work with the new Somali government in a carrot-and-stick manner to shut this behavior down. Of course, the pirates have already told us to fuck ourselves, and stand by for more: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aN._wmrxsF98&refer=home

It might be nice to spare an iota of concern for these people: http://www.gmanews.tv/story/156531/14-ships-260-crew-being-held-by-Somali-pirates

If it's not too difficult.

[depakid]

61. The issue's not a new one

and some of us weren't just dropped off a turnip truck.

I do believe the UN needs to coordinate a multinational strategy to...

That much we agree on.

They need to work with the new Somali government in a carrot-and-stick manner to shut this behavior down.

and that much we agree on.

See? Common ground.

[ohio2007]

64. this issue is not a new one.

Want to see what happened when we "threw money" at a problem 25 years ago ?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27912181/displaymode/1107/s/2/framenumber/7

Your wanting to "throw money" at them with more research studies ?


The 'New Somali" govt wants a hand out .
You should join the peace corpse and go to Somalia. You'll get some answers...fast

They need tough love not free ( your donation suggestion here ).

[ohio2007]

63. Some dream of marrying many"young wives" because they have plenty of children starving .... ?

Just a slide show comment made by a 40 yr old male that was paid to come to the coast and become a pirate.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27912181/displaymode/1107/s/2/framenumber/7/


life is cheap at any age when you say your kids are dying of hunger yet hope to marry two more young wives

wtf ?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5439256&mesg_id=5439256

some people love the life of a pirate then are swept away from sight

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2009/04/thomas_frazier_father_of_14_ch.html

[ohio2007]

41. I wonder if he was the same one the merchant marines grabbed when his gang tried to take over their

ship ?

[damntexdem]

5. So, don't try him as an adult -- but do try him.

One thing about teens with guns -- they may get shot rather than shooting others. But when apprehended, that's different.

[Taverner]

10. Oh yeah - don't get me wrong

I think he needs to be tried

But honestly? And you'll think I'm crazy for this, but when released he should be released here. The US. With a visa.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

17. It's quite obvious this boy has a case for refugee status. -nt

[ohio2007]

42. and those hostages still held have a case of Stockholm syndrome by now

he went to sea not to fish but to hunt and if need be, kill.

If these insurance companies that are going broke or getting bailed out ever stopped paying off these "free loaders" things will get violent but eventuall,the sea going pirate population will thin....

[imdjh]

13. How would they know how old he is?

Do we honestly think that a country with no government for the last 20 years or so has been issuing birth certificates?

What's the penalty for piracy, kidnapping, attempted murder, and armed robbery?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

19. They don't, they gave a min/max estimation based on physical characteristics. -nt

[ohio2007]

43. They can look at his teeth....

...after he picks them out of his shit

LOL



:wow: :evilgrin:

yes, a persons age can be known by the growth and wear on their teeth

[24601]

35. Few years in a US Prison

and he'd be "reared" all right. Then see how social he is upon release.

[IthinkThereforeIAM]

60. My exact sentiments...

...EOM

[liberalmuse]

2. I don't know why it would be a moral issue in the US.

We put away kids for life all the time. It's a fucking travesty. That's too damn young.

[EFerrari]

3. (Gripe: I wish we'd link to AP and not that @sshole..) n/t

[Ohio Joe]

7. Agreed - nt

[Oregone]

6. Rah Rah Death!

[depakid]

8. France and Russia have a number of Somali pirates in custody

might be wise to consult with them and see how they're planning on proceeding.

[MADem]

28. They're planning on trying them in French courts, and not returning them to Somalia,

where the ersatz Puntland government that has a judicial arm will execute them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7618142.stm

[imdjh]

9. Is she serious?

Jo Becker, a D.C.-based advocate for Human Rights Watch, said if the pirate suspect is in fact 16 or 17 years old, "he would certainly be entitled to protections under international law that allow for lower culpability of juveniles involved in crimes."

Becker says international law recognizes that people under 18 are "less developed, less mature, and more easily manipulated by adults."

Ideally, Becker said, an underage suspect would be tried in a juvenile court, with special protections given his age. "He would need to have access to family members. Throughout the whole process, there needs to be a special view to his rehabilitation," she added.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

18. All of that you quote is conventional wisdom for juvenile justice, mostly everywhere.

Everywhere civilized, of course.

[MADem]

29. Some of these "teen pirates" have more than one wife ... already.

It's a different culture. We're not talking about Arthur Fonzarelli and Ritchie Cunningham, here.

[mbperrin]

12. 17.4 is the median age for males in Somalia. Life expectancy 47 years.

In that culture, he's a grownup, and universal suffrage at 18.

Big enough to hijack ships of unarmed people and hold them for ransom, threatening death if they don't cooperate.

Certainly old enough to try. Not a kid. He's the equivalent of a 30-something here.

[depakid]

14. That was one of the more bizarre attempts at cultural relativism that I've in quite a while

Whatever it takes to justify that pound of flesh, I guess.

[mbperrin]

25. No relativism to it. They are considered grown men in their country at age 18 with all legal rights.

Culturally, they are considered able at about 15.

Have you not traveled? Do. And talk to locals.

Then compare expectations. We have extended adolescence in this country because we have a long life. They're dead at 47. Better live a life by then.

Where do you think they got those AKs? Found them? Only guys that age with them in Somalia? Think they hide them from the sight of their neighbors and parents back on the mainland. This IS their culture.

What do you suggest? Confinement to a juvenile facility until he turns 18 in a few months, and then released back to home with the admonishment of "don't do it again, because then you'll be an adult"? Just curious. This is a person willing to kill a total random stranger who has not offended him in any way for money.

See, they're the ones trying to justify a pound of flesh (or actually a fistful of dollars). Or do you not believe in self defense?

You don't have to. Pacifists would just as soon die to teach their murderers a lesson. I admire that, but could not emulate it in a brazillion years. If that's your stance, okay for you. Please don't hold me to it. I have different beliefs.

[VermeerLives]

31. Very well said! (N/T)

[depakid]

37. That's an even more bizarre set of rationalizations and attributions

Seems to me (and a whole lot of others) that Texans and Floridians are somewhere through the looking glass, especially when it comes to notions of criminal and juvenile justice.

My suggestion on how to proceed- and send the appropriate signals (as well as craft a just result in the present case) is to work with other nations and international bodies to deal comprehensively with the the problem, in accordance with the Priciples and Guidlines on Children Associated with Armed Forces or Armed Goups (The Paris Principles).

One such process has already been put in place- UN sanctioned Special Court for Sierra Leone (SCSL) to try the participants for war crimes and other breaches of humanitarian law. The statute of the SCSL gave the court jurisdiction over persons aged 15 and older- subject to the following limitations under the Paris Principles:

...children who participated in armed conflict who are accused of crimes under international law allegedly committed while they were associated with armed forces or armed groups should be considered primarily as victims of offences against international law; not only as perpetrators. They must be treated in accordance with international law in a framework of restorative justice and social rehabilitation, consistent with international law which offers children special protection through numerous agreements and principles.

One might also take this time to note that Senators from some US states have been so adament about imposing the capital punishment and life without parole on juveniles that the United States is only one of two countries in the world that have not ratified the United Nations Convention On the Rights of the Child, which holds such sentences to be human right violations. (of course, the fundamentalists have other whack objections, too).

Frankly, that's something people ought to find appalling when they're in the states- and shameful and embarrassing when they're abroad.

[Igel]

47. We're unclear on the concept of "adult" in the west, as well.

Ok, you're not an adult until you're 18. But you can't buy alcohol until you're 21, so are you an adult? But cigarettes you can buy at 18, so sure. It's good that you can buy tobacco as you ship out in the military, I guess; but while you can handle an M16, no beer. Ah. So good to be in a culture that's rational about these things.

Sinus decongestant? 18, in some states. Some don't have a cut-off.

But if you're pregnant, at 16 you're entitled to decide to abort or to keep the child: A 16-year-old girl is proudly proclaimed to be a woman. And there's no way you can stop them from having sex. Not because it's just a difficult thing to do, but there are many that believe that sex is an inalienable right (or rite, take your pick) at that age. Again, woman. SCOTUS recently ruled that the FDA had to make the Plan B pill available on an OTC basis to a 17-year-old ... girl?

You can file to be emancipated at age 16. Meaning that you could then do most of the things an 18 or even 21 year old could do.

In some states you can marry at age 16. In others at age 17. In all, at age 18. You can drive at 16, though; although that's been rolled back a bit.

Then again, the brain continues to develop until the early-mid 20s, and in some very real sense H. sapiens isn't mature until 24 or 25. Certainly not at 18. Or 16, even if you're female. There's no good reason for 18, as opposed to 17 or 19, being a cut-off (apart from tradition).

[MADem]

30. What do you say to the wives of these pirates, then?

No, no, no...you should be dreaming of the prom, not working on your fifth kid?

[Bobbieo]

15. 47 was the life expectancy here in the US in the early 1900s.

[mbperrin]

20. Yep, and if you look at the average age of marriage then, many 17 year olds

were raising families on their own at that time.

[imdjh]

33. A note on life expectancy: You may well know this but a lot of people don't.

Life expectancy at birth is not the same as the longest a person might expect to live. Then as now, that varies mostly with genetics and environment. Life expectancy is alway lower at birth than it is for someone who survives age 5, age 12, age 40 , etc...

It was not unusual for Americans who survived childhood to live into their 70's, 80's, and 90's prior to 1900.

[No Elephants]

70. Was that an average? If so, it included a lot of infants and women who died in childbirth.

[superconnected]

21. "He's the equivalent of a 30-something here."

uh, no.

[VermeerLives]

27. Excellent points

"In that culture, he's a grownup, and universal suffrage at 18."

It is interesting to note that the word "teenager" did not come into use until about 60 years ago or so. Until that time, throughout the history of the world, one was either a child or an adult. We have "teenage" soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. They chose a far different course for their lives than the pirates/terrorists/criminals, whatever you want to call them.

So I'm not sure what is the intended message of the article. The pirates were old enough to know what they were doing. They hijacked a ship, threatened to murder Captain Phillips, and our Navy SEALs took action to make sure that didn't happen.

[Jennicut]

51. Yup. Which is pretty sad.

[Betsy Ross]

16. Untrained teenagers with heavy weapons

maybe we need to send them some video games for training. :sarcasm:

[bigworld]

22. What's international law have to say about this?

I'm curious. Who gets to try a pirate in International waters? The folks that caught him, the country whose ship was attacked? Guess I'm not too keen on my maritime law.

[rpannier]

34. I would think this would be covered under maritime law

That's what happens when they catch the pirates in s.e. Asian waters.

[HooptieWagon]

38. Piracy is one of the few crimes that can be prosecuted by any country

under international law. Doesn't necessarily have to be the country that captured him, or the country of the victim or ship owners. Kenya has already agreed to prosecute Somali pirates, so I'd say turn him over to them.... but if Yemen, Saudi Arabia, or Egypt wants to try him that's just as good.

[bemildred]

23. Teens have always made the best cannon fodder.

Someone should do a study of how often these sorts of thing involve people over 30. Eighteen is not the right cutoff either. Adulthood, if it comes, comes after 25 for most people.

[ohio2007]

48. Not in africa. Teens are captains and leading lieutenants

live to the ripe old age of 19 and you can say "Lifes been good"



http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa/02/12/child.soldiers/index.html

[bemildred]

49. Are you suggesting that captains and lieutenants are not cannon fodder?

Huh kid?

[ohio2007]

73. Rank requirees no age for those in the african armies .

Are you suggesting there are no soldiers under the age 12 kid ?
You know children flush out those armies at various levels.

[bemildred]

74. Yeah, they are more like gangs anyway, well-armed gangs.

Which is what you get when there is no civil government worth mentioning. But I was just thinking of WWI and the life-expectancy of captains and less in that war. Vietnam comes to mind too.

[tomm2thumbs]

24. old enough to attack a naval vessel seems to be old enough

if age were everything, than mentally disabled people 'of age' would be automatically at risk - i think a lot of this has to be based on what 'youth' were able to do and how their actions showed a level of premeditation and thought. Maturity is not a number - look at Congress how many adolescents we have there.

[ohio2007]

46. and don't forget, he could have been "a millionaire" if he picked the right ship to jack

All the previous "ransom payoff winners" also understand this ;

"There but by the grace of alla, go I"



Hey, how about this,
maybe all those rich young turks
should all chip in and get him the best attorney money can buy



:rofl:

yeah,

I kill me

G'nite

[stray cat]

32. He actually gave up willingly and may have risked his life to do so - I'd cut him some slack

its too bad the other pirates didn't follow suit - they would all still be alive and who knows how light the prison sentence might be.

[creeksneakers2]

36. His age, his financial disadvantages, his surrender

and the fact that he didn't kill anybody all ought to be considered. On the other hand, he took part in a crime where it was likely someone would be killed. I think it would be fitting to give him ten years, then give him his life back after the time is served.

[ohio2007]

45. How do you know he didn't kill anybody ? He's 19 and from Somalia

Unless any previous record should be inadmissable in a court of law.

He still gets life in prison as spelled out by the current laws on the books.

How about the French hostage and pirates that died...
I wonder if his brother was part of that take down.

[ohio2007]

39. stop pimping your asshole kids hundreds of miles out to sea.

But that's a point the UN will take decades to discuss as they can't define the words pirate,terrorist or hostage.

Child abuse isn't an 'issue'
:sarcasm:

fundies gotta stop sending them food and feeding them, they just reproduce more hungry mouths with a grudge against them.


besides,
"feed the world" Live Aid concerts of the 1980's fixed the hunger problems in those same areas a generation ago right ?

/screed

[Jennicut]

50. This is really sad. They obviously work for a warlord/someone higher up.

Such a bummer of a situation that these kids got talked into/lured into this. Now they are dead. Also, where they are from 17 is very mature and grown up. They grow up fast there.

[truthisfreedom]

58. This is going to make a hell of a movie.

That's all I can say.

[Terry in Austin]

65. Those darn teenagers!

First, with the long hair and the loud music, and now with the heavy weapons and the piracy, already.

Hey -- get off my lawn!!

Darn teenagers...

[Jack_DeLeon]

66. He should be hung...

death to pirates.

When normal law abiding citizens are typically not allowed to legally defend themselves on the high seas, then governments should punish those who prey on them by the harshest means possible.

[panzerfaust]

67. Too many years a sailor

for me to think that a pirate with an automatic weapon presents any sort of 'moral dilemma'

Pirates prey on those whom they believe weak enough to attack -

[Romulox]

68. Virtually every state in the Union would try this person as an adult if the crime had been committed

here.

[woo me with science]

69. After all the outraged threads about "children" at Guantanamo,

it is very interesting to see all the contortions at DU now re: these pirates.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1299979

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x338595

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1301612

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2310039&mesg_id=2310039

[ohio2007]

76. nice threads you have

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1301612#1301756

but replies are few so the consensus may be that "kids do the darnedest things"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3158472&mesg_id=3160104

[No Elephants]

71. I may have to turn in my ACLU card, but I knew capturing ships, taking hostages, etc. was wrong by

the time I was 9, if not before.

[ohio2007]

72. French forces capture 11 pirates

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/15/pirates-mombasa-kenya-vessel

wonder how many were kids on an innocent "spring break" ?

:sarcasm:

[dbultman]

75. Some of the ghoulishness here only exceeded by ...

knowitall asshatery about pirate's wives...
Analysis: Somalia Piracy Began in Response to Illegal Fishing and Toxic Dumping by Western Ships off Somali Coast
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/4/14/analysis_somalia_piracy_began_in_response

How about the EU's piracy?