Americans want more horsepower

[question everything]

http://www.dailybulletin.com/Stories/0,1413,203~21482~1970998,00.html#

(snip)

At auto dealers across the country, a growing number of buyers are trading up to SUVs and trucks powered by big engines such as V-8s and Hemis, machines once shunned as gas-guzzling polluters but now increasingly embraced for their might.

(snip)

Automakers installed large V-8 engines in 29.1 percent of all passenger vehicles built in North America for the U.S. market last year, the highest rate since 1985, according to Ward's Automotive Reports. The rate has risen every year since 2000, when V-8s went into 25.3 percent of North American-built cars and trucks for American drivers, Ward's statistics show.

In the same four-year stretch, smaller 4-cylinder installations fell from nearly 27 percent to 25.3 percent.

(snip)

[Fovea]

1. I am going to coin a new term -- and you heard it here first!

Pump rage -- the assaults SUV and Hemi drivers commit on compact car drivers at the gas pump, when they bitch about high gas prices, and the responsible small car drivers call them on it. I predict that you will see this possibly as early as May, certainly by August.

[Dissenting_Prole]

10. Bad news for me then

I just put a deposit down on a Mercedes-built Smart car.

2 seats and 92 mpg.


http://www.so-smart.ca/

[fjc]

29. Hey, what are these cars selling for?

I saw them in Europe. I have a Honda Del Sol now, but would like to know the price range.

[Dissenting_Prole]

39. Smart price

$16,000 - $20,000 Canadian dollars

[PaveThePlanet]

73. So....

they'll be about $50USD? :)

[peterh]

36. I saw those things in Switzerland recently…..

Neat little buggers…..My daughter rented one and drove from Lugano to Zermatt and back and gave it a thumbs up. But, it doesn’t look like the “fortwo” will be coming to the US anytime soon….and when it does, methinks it won’t be all that cheap….

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/wheels/articles/0214wheels14smart.html

[Lorien]

66. Cool!

I've seen those in Europe-I hope they become as trendy here someday.

I'm going to try to get a Prius at the end of this year. There's an 11 month wait for them now.

[54anickel]

75. I saw one of these cruising on Hwy 100 in Milwaukee! Had no idea

what it was.

[LeftHander]

102. I saw one in Milwaukee too....

They are not legal in the U.S.

Automakers have specifically NTSB to set up rules that prevent small cars like the Smart car from entering the US market.

They want to keep making the high profit margin SUV's and big gas guzzling V8...

A company in florida has been trying to import them. The last time I checked they were only allowed in the states for auto shows.

That is when I saw one on the road.

This type of vehicle would be perfect for my family.

[schultzee]

16. These F------s have no idea of reality. Oil will last forever, yea.

[peterh]

28. Let’s hope “pump rage” is just confined to symbolic gestures…

And nothing beyond that…..

[kalian]

2. What the F@#% for?!

:eyes:
Its not like we can race along the US highways at over 75MPH...
Its not like the highways are congestion free...

:wtf:

[Mikimouse]

3. That's great news! Nothing I love more than watching ...

idiots being forced to walk because they can't afford to gas up their guzzlers. I won't be offering anyone rides to the gas station, or to work. Thay will probably benefit from learning to ride their damned bicycles again. Snarf!

[Zhade]

31. Yes, that will be sweet, won't it?

Anyone still driving an SUV these days better get used to high gas prices.

You know, I used to say that if people had a bunch of kids, it was fine they drove an SUV. But you know what? Fuck that. They can drive a station wagon or a minivan, both of which are far safer than the top-heavy, poorly-designed deathtraps that SUVs are.

And then there's the selfishness factor. We're facing Peak Oil and a potential ice age thanks to global warming, and so many of these people are not only gorging on petroleum, they're smug and proud of it! Hell, I feel guilty that I own a six-cylinder car I bought four years ago, before I fully 'woke up' to what's going on in the world.

Let them walk or ride a bike. It's healthier anyway.

[xchrom]

4. americans are addicted to irresponsible

consmption -- especially consumption that can be viewed by neighbors and friends.

[Zhade]

32. AMEN. You nailed it. "Show-off consumerism" at its finest.

NT!

[JohnOneillsMemory]

67. READ!! Psych. consulted Chrysler.Iraq> ARNOLD>Hummer>SUV>War!

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0712-01.htm

Article called 'Trading on Fear' from the UK's Guardian. Written by Sheldon Rampton and John Stauber, it details how fear propaganda works.

Specifically how Arnold wanted his own Humvee after Gulf War I and how a psychiatrist consulted Chrysler on American's desire for an aggressive and hostile vehicle, the SUV.

>snip<

"A striking recent use of fear psychology in marketing occurred following Operation Desert Storm in 1991. During the war, television coverage of armored Humvees sweeping across the desert helped to launch the Hummer, a consumer version of a vehicle originally designed exclusively for military use. The initial idea to make a consumer version came from the actor Arnold Schwarzenegger, who wanted a tough-looking, road-warrior vehicle for himself. At his prodding, AM General (what was left of the old American Motors) began making civilian Hummers in 1992, with the first vehicle off the assembly line going to Schwarzenegger himself.

In addition to the Hummer, the war helped to launch a broader sports utility vehicle (SUV) craze. Psychiatrist Clotaire Rapaille, a consultant to the automobile industry, conducted studies of postwar consumer psyches for Chrysler and reported that Americans wanted "aggressive" cars. In interviews with Keith Bradsher, the former Detroit bureau chief for the New York Times, Rapaille discussed the results of his research. SUVs, he said, were "weapons" - "armored cars for the battlefield" - that appealed to Americans' deepest fears of violence and crime."

-----------------------------------------------------------------
CULTURE WARS, PEOPLE! THEY'VE SHIPPED ALAN ALDA TO GITMO BAY!
Makes sense that the Military Industrial Complex wants Arnold to front the theater of the absurd that is our former governmnet, right?
This is also why so many are uncomfortable with NASCSAR. Cars as weapons is what we live with and die with everyday.

[Taeger]

5. Theoretically ...

Theoretically, there would be NO problem with V-8 engines if you could turn half the cylinders OFF when they weren't needed.

The industry folks frequently talk up environmental regulation (CAFE) as limiting the choices of the consumers. This simply isn't true.

But I think that the strategy that environmental groups take to combat this simply feeds into these myths. Instead of decrying v-8s, you should ENCOURAGE V-8s that can use shut down, or cylider-skipping fuel injectors to keep the V-8 from guzzling when the extra power isn't required.

I ask you, would it be THAT expensive to design a controller that alternated fuel distribution to half the cyliders (making it a v-4) on idle???? For cruising, would it be difficult to put in an alternating/advancing 3-2 scheme (making it a V-6). The only real difficulty is finding the correct shemes to maximize fuel efficiency while maintaining power.

Higher technology means MORE jobs for engineers which are typically located here in the US. It means MORE work for engine builders and MORE work to retool lines. This all makes MORE jobs. You simply transfer the cost of buying MORE fuel to the cost of employing people. It's a WIN/WIN for the US economy!!!!

[mike1963]

12. That's a lot harder to do than you might think. You can't just shut off

the fuel or cut the ignition to some cylinders without losing tons of power. The pistons still have to compress the air. If there were an easy way to keep the valves open that would help some but you're still wasting an awful lot of energy on moving parts that don't contribute anything other than internal friction & drag.

[Taeger]

48. It's not insolvable!!!

The pistons still have to compress the air

Why???? Why not simply let them breathe during an empty cycle????

I know that I'm talking about fundamentally HARD engineering problems. But I'm 100% certain that it's a NUT that CAN be cracked.

Us auto manufacturers spend BILLIONS on advertising annually. How much R&D do you figure the job would need??? 3-4, 10, 20 million ??? What would be the net return to our economy based on the unused fuel?????

At the VERY least, one could simply provide LESS fuel to those pistons so they are effetively SPINNING.

Let's not forget that engines in the 70s (as someone else cited) were NOT computer controlled. There is a whole new world in what can be accomplished with computer controlled timing, injection and ignition.

I refuse to believe that the problem CANNOT be solved with a little cleverness. I DO believe that the auto industry simply ISN'T INTERESTED because they don't believe that fuel efficiency SELLS in an era of cheap gas!!! Higher CAFE standards would FORCE them invest!!!

[Fovea]

69. If you are looking for a burst of torque or acceleration

Why does it have to be a V8?

I think that the hybrid concept of combustion/electric power would
achieve the same response without having to chuff a lot of air in and out of a cyl.

If you really need that 8 cyl vroom. you would need to use a dual crankshaft, but here you are still lugging around the extra weight and adding an extra lossy part of the drive train to get something that can be better achieved with another strategy.

[kysrsoze]

87. Displacement on demand is coming to a number of vehicles soon

I'd love to get one. I'm sorry, but I like a relatively fast car. It doesn't have to be 400hp, but a nice, peppy V6 isn't that disgusting, is it? Of course, putting a Hemi V8 into almost every Chrysler car or driving around in a Hummer is just terribly irresponsible. I think Europe is guilty too. Those AMG Mercedes are pumping out almost 500hp, and Audi managed to stuff a 4.2L V8 into an A4. That's ridiculous.

Though I hate their styling, I'm excited to see what Toyota is doing with the Lexus RX400 hybrid and the upcoming Highlander hybrid. It'll be a V6 with V8 power and mid-30s gas mileage. It's about time. I'd love to get a hybrid 2005 pathfinder or G35. That would be something. Well, the Altima hybrid is coming soon, so it could happen.

Of course my dream car would be a fast-as-shit hydrogen ride that oozed water from the tailpipe.

[jmowreader]

62. There is a way, but you can't afford it

All Formula 1 cars use pneumatic valves--high-pressure air forces them open, not the action of a camshaft. They do it so they can use the car's computer to set up custom valve timing programs, but it could also be used to hang the exhaust valves open on a street car, so as to unload the affected cylinders.

Given that, a Formula 1 head is probably worth as much as your house. And you're still hauling around the weight of that huge engine.

[Zero Gravitas]

106. Not quite

F1 engines do use cams to open the valves. The air pressure replaces the valve spring that closes the valve after the cam rotates away.

There was a rumor floating around that Renault had been working on electromagnetic valve actuation for their F1 engine which would completely eliminate the cam shafts and allow for completely configurable valve timing.

[andy12]

14. cadillac built one

Back in the 70's ,,it was a disaster

[mike1963]

18. That does sound vaguely familiar. Years ago we took a ford engine,

forget what one, probably a 351 and disabled one bank and used those 4 cyls as an air compressor. It was pretty noisy but worked very well.
;-)

[kysrsoze]

88. Yeah, the V-8-6-4. It sucked - literally.

It was designed to shut off the other 4 cylinders by vacuum and it did not work well at all. However, there will soon be a new round of electronically controlled V8s with cylinders which shut down when not needed. It's a great idea which should have come long ago.

[donsu]

6. I think of how much more pollutants they put into the air

and how much quicker the oil will deplete. the world is not prepared to go oil less. the world has it's head in the sand.

[leodem]

7. As a fan of the Fast and the Furious

I would love to just tell them that they don't need some 8 cyl engine for all that horsepower. I have a 2003 Honda Civic, 4 cyl.... I have suped it up so that horsepower is at an est. of 360 which is a lot consider the stock horsepower is at about 140. My gas mileage is still excellent and if I need the horsepower it's there. It has only cost me an extra $3300 to get my horsepower up. In all the car cost me about $20,000. For that price I get a fuel economy car that can still smoke those 8 cyl. engine gas guzzlers that they are pay 30K and up for.

[waylon]

20. Yeah, but can you tow a horse trailer?

LOL, just being onry!

[question everything]

41. Back in 1979, during the gas shortage

and the beginning of love affair with efficient Japanese cars, I remember an ad, in the agricultural Midwest saying: but you can't haul hogs with a Honda..

[jmowreader]

63. That's not the point

You guys know where I work. When I'm there, one of my duties is to load merchandise into people's cars.

About two-thirds of the cars I load are huge pickups, and about two-thirds of those pickups don't have a scratch in the bed. They're never used for anything except driving around town by people who don't own another vehicle.

Buying a Ford F-350 pickup with a diesel in it because you might need to go to Home Depot and buy some Sakrete once a year is ridiculous. Buying the same truck because two loads of building materials a day in it means you're not very busy is another thing altogether.

I would be very happy if the government required you to show the deed to your farm, your contractor's license or some other proof of need before they let you buy a 3/4-ton or one-ton pickup. If you need to tow a horse trailer, I have no problem with you buying a big truck. If you need to buy 300 pounds of play sand, you don't need a truck that can haul 4000 pounds in the bed.

[waylon]

8. They are more efficient...

Its important not to compare yesterday's technology to today. Most will get 20+ mpg in typical driving. And I would assume they are less polluting.

Im a car lover!

[mike1963]

9. I do not believe you. 20+ with an 8 banger?

...
Edit: just checked some figures from the DOT, some of them do. I sit corrected.

[KAZ]

13. 99 Vette, 5.7 L V8 - 29 mpg on the highway.

22 mpg around town, unless I really get on it.

[mike1963]

15. Yeh, I edited my post. Do you know how much it weighs? I had a 75 that

didn't do that well I'm pretty sure. It was a 350.

[KAZ]

17. 3200 lbs.

But I'm just about done with my mid-life crises. Not a fun car for Chicago winters.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

115. 20 miles a gallon is HORRIBLE compared to hybrids

[bacchant]

11. The breeding of American Dumb-asses

I think we've reached a turning point with SUVs. Dodge seems to understand, or at least to fear, that SUVs are seen as glorified mini-vans, which is pretty much what they are. In another Durango spot, the wife explains to her young son the features of their new Durango he will love. She tells him and his teddy bear about the smooth ride and the DVD player. The husband complains, "What are you doing to him?" Then we cut to him holding his son in the driveway with the hood up. "Son," he says, pointing to the engine, "there's only one thing you need to know. Can you say 'Hemi'?"

"Hemi," the boy says and the father puts him down, clearly thrilled that his son is so not gay.

First of all, is there a snowball's chance in hell a four year old will like the engine of the family car more than the DVD player in the family car?

http://www.members.cox.net/triptychcryptic/boneyard/20031212.html

[waylon]

19. I dont think its necessary to call anyone a dumb ass, do you?

I think we can all agree better efficiency is a good thing, but how low will you sink to make the argument?

[bacchant]

21. Wha???

My comment doesn't relate to the issue of efficient engines, it goes to the issue of selling planet-wrecking-behemoths with some BS fantasy of American Machismo. The guy represented in that commercial clearly IS a dumb ass. Dig?

[waylon]

23. Dig? LOL....too funny.

Your referral to people who drive "planet-wrecking-behemoths" being dumbasses is THE issue.

Why do you have to go that route? Is that a confusing question ("Wha???")? Dont cop out and cite a source on this one, YOU repeated it.

[bacchant]

24. Look dude,

I never made the claim that all people who drive a large vehicle are dumb, obviously many people have to. As no doubt you've noticed, we have a bit of a culture war going on in this country. At least half the folks here are either ignorant or in denial to the extremely destructive effect our "American Culture" has on the rest of the world. So when I see an Ad that proudly panders to this American indifference, I calls it like I sees it. Have you seen the commercial I'm talking about? This particular dumb ass is trying to teach his 4 yr. old, and us, that manhood is defined by the size of your SUV engine.

What is it about my point that you don't get?

[waylon]

26. Why would you post an offensive slander if you cant support it?

You obviously agree with the intent of the article, why now do you shy away from it? Since you are clearly labeling half of us here ignorant and in denial, which category do you fall under?

The culture war you speak of is born of ignorance, I think we would agree on that. Unfortunately, we come down on different sides of it. More surprisingly are the tactics we employ to make our case.


Shameful!

[bacchant]

30. Heh

This is one of those odd disconnects where we could be in agreement and I wouldn't know. It's like we're speaking different languages.

1. I didn't call anyone here a dumb ass. Nor did I call any real person or persons anywhere, dumb asses. I called the archetype depicted in the Dodge commercial a dumb ass. The title of my original post "The breeding of American Dumb-asses" refers to the celebration of a stereotypical meat-stick passing on his ignorance to his toddler.

2. When I said "half the folks here..." HERE was referring to the US not the DU. Sorry, my bad for not making that more clear.

3. I still don't see how you are able equate my criticism of a lame commercial to bashing people in this thread.

4. What are you smoking and where can I get some?

[Zhade]

35. 5. Perhaps the poster drives an SUV?

6. Not that I know that. I'm just saying that the poster did seem to take offense at a rather well-made point.

But hey, I'll offend people now: driving an SUV is pretty damn stupid and selfish, when there are so many safer, cleaner, cheaper, and overall better vehicles out there.

Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings there, but that's the way I see it.

:flamesuit on:

[waylon]

40. I dont agree with anything you say.....kind of

Here is your assessment of the commercial.

"stereotypical meat-stick passing on his ignorance to his toddler"

First, I dont see anything wrong with APPRECIATING horsepower. I certainly dont like being called a "meat-stick" because I do. (Not sure what that means but I think I get the intent) Further, when you refer to half of the US, you are likely including half of us here at DU. We are not from Mars ya know. We all get to work in SOMETHING!

If I had the money, I too would own, not one but two hemi's! A durango for my wife/kids and a an old Cuda for myself. I like cars, its NOT a penis thing. And, I will encourage MY son to take an interest in cars like I do.

This is a disconnect to be sure, but make no mistake about it, we dont agree. You find it reasonable and valid to denigrate others because they choose to drive something which gets a few less gpm than an economy car. I find it shallow and immature.

I am smoking Ligett lights, you can find them at any convenience store. Just make sure you dont DRIVE to get them.

[The_Casual_Observer]

93. I am smoking Ligett lights

You need say no more!

[bluedeminredstate]

22. That commercial pisses me off!

God forbid his son not think of engines and horsepower and macho things under the hood.
I think in a few years these gas-guzzling car makers will find that there are a lot of Americans that don't want their heaps. Then the "patriots" will all be wringing their hands when Toyota sells the most cars in this country.

[Piperay]

98. I cringe when that commercial

comes on, the father is such an insensitive clod. :puke:

[Zhade]

33. "clearly thrilled that his son is so not gay." That's AWESOME.

I hate that commercial. I've seen it so many times here at work that it actually pains me when I see it.

[scarlet_owl]

34. Those ads make me sick.

[ArkDem]

105. So, you think the commercial's target audience is small children?

.

[aquaman]

25. Big engine equates to a...........

small penis. Very insecure people.

[waylon]

27. Yeah, that or a situation which requires it.....

but I think I understand what you REALLY are saying.

Only people with really big dicks drive small cars. Have I got that right?

I am quickly growing tired of this sophmoric, talking points, BS!<yawn>

[aquaman]

37. You are entitled to your opinion.....

I am entitled to mine. You shouldn't take life so seriously, you may have a heart attack, while driving your big ass car.

[waylon]

43. Ok, next time someone calls you a killer for eating meat....

just smile, and dont take it too seriously while you're big ass arteries get bigger!

[aquaman]

45. I don't eat meat so that wouldn't bother me.

So, enjoy your big ass steak, while you drive your big ass car. Drink a beer, relax, it's going to be okay.

[waylon]

47. Thanks, I will

Can you get off my back now? Or does my big ass steak and my big ass pick up make me a target?

[aquaman]

49. You are the one that sounds angry....

I find this whole thing a bit amusing. Peace to you and your truck.

[waylon]

51. Ok, hows this

All vegetarians are weak ass idiots!!!?


Does that "amuse" you? Do you find yourself angry? Do you understand why I might get a little offended?

[aquaman]

53. Actually, that does not bother me at all.......

because I don't take things as serious as you do. Life is to short for that. Regarding being weak, I am fairly skinny due to my healthy diet.

[waylon]

54. Does anything offend you???

Or are you a doormat? Do you let people walk over you? Is there anythign you will stand up to defend?


I would assume there has to be SOMETHING that you would defend, am I wrong?

[aquaman]

55. Actually, I am fairly assertive.....

I used to play Defender on my Atari 2600 when I was a kid, does that count?

[waylon]

57. If it works for you, i guess it counts We all have to aspire to something

[Zhade]

38. I'm sure that very few of the people who drive SUVs actually NEED to.

I live in Los Angeles county. Practically every other car is an SUV. Usually with one single person inside. It's not unusual to be in traffic, surrounded by a dozen SUVs, all with a single occupant.

Now, how many people need all that power and "rugged durability" in the city?

SUVs are more dangerous than minivans, which can carry as many people. They are more dangerous to the occupants as well as other drivers.

[waylon]

44. LA is a crazy place.....more money than common sense I guess

[question everything]

82. And to add insult to injury, many lots eliminate the compact parking space

I have seen some behemoths that park diagonally, since they are too long for a standard parking space. Or, worse, I would end up parked between two monsters and then trying to back up, inching very slowly and praying that no one would come charging ahead hitting me.

Funny thing, I have heard from women, mostly, that they like to "sit high" to see the traffic. But pretty soon everyone is sitting high so one's vision is blocked, again.

It is too sad that some need outside props to help their self-esteem.

[Snow]

111. I'll argue with you (but without any real data to back me up)

I moved to LA (Altadena) almost 2 years ago from Omaha. Omaha had a lot higher proportion of big vehicles on the road than LA does - lot less in the way of smaller sedans, economical cars, etc. Some of those people actually were farmers & ranchers, maybe more of them than in LA - but I think my part of LA has more people in smaller vehicles than the Heartland.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[willat]

52. Interesting thread

One gets the idea from this thread that;
1. If you drive an SUV, you can't be a democrat.
2. You need some kind of approval from someone else to buy one, or you are selfish.
3. Cars, minivans, etc... are safe, don't pollute, and are the choice for non dumbasses. SUV's are wrecking the planet.

Start the flaming!!!

[waylon]

56. Dont forget.....

SUV owners alone are funding terrorists.

Deisel trucks, busses, trains, arent included in the list of earth destroyers. Nor are the economy-minded, non emission producing, room for 3.2, love and peace powered green machines.

Just dont ask them how the goods they buy get to the stores they shop in. It will confuse them.

[bacchant]

71. First let me say I'm sorry

I didn't understand that Waylon identified with the character in the commercial. Waylon never said 'hey I'm that guy in the commercial, insulting him is insulting me'. If I had made that connection I probably wouldn't have called the the character a "meat-stick", so I'm sorry Waylon.

There is nothing at all wrong with digging cars, cars are cool. But it's time for reality, and if these secret pentagon reports on impending climate disaster are any indication, our reality is about change for the worse. I'm sorry if this impinges on anyones tastes or hobbies, but the days of Burger King America ("have it your way") are over. If we don't get our priorities in order pronto we're going to lose a lot more than our SUVs. Americans don't like to sacrifice. We pretty much figure we can have it all, all the time, and when the bill comes due it'll probably be someone else's problem. I personally find it indefensible for corporations like Dodge to encourage you to ignore the changing realities of the world. They won't be here to help you when the shit hits the fan.

[waylon]

80. Thank you

I accept your apology.

Your argument however, is based on..... "secret pentagon reports"? Hardly substantial, and not even defined. I have heard "end of the world" theories too many times to give them much weight.

[Zhade]

84. You must have missed the thread right here on DU.

So, in the spirit of sharing, here's some substantiation for you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=377985

and

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1153513,00.html

As far as the whole SUV thing goes, I'll widen the scope: the pursuit of petroleum interests is killing the globe. All of us, as citizens of a petroleum-based society, are contributing to that destruction.

[jus_the_facts]

96. here's yet another discussion........

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1143818

[willat]

50. Oh no!

I'm driving the wrong car! I better get something really small!

[NickB79]

77. Just remember that quote

When gas hits $3/gal, then see how good that small car is looking.

There is no right or wrong car to drive. Drive whatever you like, just don't complain when you spend $50+ to fill up a tank of gas.

[wackywill]

101. Last gas shortage

In 72 I purchased a new Nissan 1200 for just over $2300, gas was about $0.50 per gal. In Oct that year (or the next can't remember) gas jumped to over a buck a gal with shortages and long lines at stations that even HAD gas. My Nissan was valued at over $3000 USED and a Caddy that had cost $16,000 the year before couldn't be sold for half it's value. I must say I looked very smart when I was only really very cheap.....lol.

[fortyfeetunder]

119. Since women don't have small ..

penises....

"A large engine is inversely proportional to the driver's cranial processing capacity."

[jus_the_facts]

58. Am'urkins are TOLD what they want....to hell with the enviornment......

....CONSUME! :evilfrown:

[waylon]

59. Americans have choices.....to hell with limits!

Freedom :)

[jus_the_facts]

60. yeah the freedom to screw their offspring of having a future remotely....

....similar from the one they enjoyed....glad I never bore children to live in the spoils of what freedom means to the future this attitude exaults...for there won't be one! :eyes:

[waylon]

64. wow, now that is pessimism!

Better start packing now I guess. I hear Costa Rica is nice this time of year



We are Doomed

[jus_the_facts]

95. accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got

it.:think:

[willat]

109. This is getting...

... to sound like that FedEx commercial. We're all DOOMED!!!

[NickB79]

78. I recall learning in my American Democracy class

That one man's freedom stops where the next man's freedom begins. In other words, freedom isn't infinite; if it intrudes on another person's freedom that's where your freedom ends. You can drive whatever you want, as long as it doesn't place those around you in excessive danger. If driving a gas-guzzling truck or SUV is placing others in danger by wasting a limited, vital natural resource that could be stretched out further by using more fuel-economical vehicles instead, one could say that's where freedom of choice might end.

Considering that driving itself is a priviledge, your entire argument is probably moot to start with anyways. No one has the constitutional right to drive so much as a moped, much less a car, SUV or truck.

[Zhade]

85. Very well-said.

NT!

[willat]

110. Ah, but...

... do you really want the GOVERNMENT telling you want kind of car you can drive? They only sell SUV's because there is a demand for them. GM would build 1 cylinder 3 wheelers if they could make money doing it.

[Snow]

112. I don't think so - look up thread at the nifty Smart Car from

mercedes, that can't be sold legally in the US - they would unsafe.

[bleedingheart]

61. and then they CRY when gas prices go too high

if people want to buy stuff I say let them...however I don't want to hear about how much it costs to fuel them or maintain them...

[leodem]

65. If the issue is horsepower...

Then why not look into a Mitsubishi Lancer EVO or Subura WRX STI? The Lancer at 280 and Subaru at 300 are still a lot better than any SUV. Plus both are not 8 cyl... I'm not knocking anybody that drives SUVs, but for horsepower to just get associated with SUVs all the time is funny. My friend got a Dodge Durango, said he wanted a car with "balls", found this funny for him being a very queeny gay man, but he got and and we lined up my Honda and like I've alwasy told him, my 4 cyl. Honda smoked him.

[waylon]

68. Oh, go tow a horse trailer....

[NickB79]

79. Yeah, I get so tired of towing my horse trailer to work every day

Hitching it up, driving 15 miles down the highway, THEN having to merge into city traffic and change lanes 5 times before I get to my cubicle. All my friends agree, they're tired of towing their horse trailers to work with their little 4-cylinders and V6's too. It takes a good 10 minutes more just to get to the office because of how congested the roads are with thousands and thousands of little cars towing big horse trailers through the heart of downtown Minneapolis. But yesterday, I got passed by a big SUV hauling his horse trailer like it was nothing! Damn, I need one of those now.

[waylon]

81. Good thing you live in the city....

You would be lost without your freeway and starbucks

[NickB79]

83. I grew up on a farm for the first 18 yrs of my life

So don't think I'd be lost out in the country. The closest "real" city was 20 miles away, and was only 7500 in population. I baled my fair share of hay every summer and shovelled my weight in pig and cow crap every hr every day of the week since I was 13. I still go out there on the weekends to help my dad as much as I can, so I'm not as dependant on freeways and Starbucks as you may think.

It seems the point I was trying to make through sarcasm was lost when you read my post. What percentage of Americans still work farms? Last time I checked it was much less than 5%, probably around 1-2% now, if that. Yet, we see MILLIONS of SUV's and trucks sold every year. My dad has been farming since the 70's, and he's still driving two USED trucks he bought 8 yrs ago. There's no way all those vehicles being sold today are going to farms and rural areas. How many of those do you think are actually put to use then? How many people actually tow horse trailers, or hay racks, or haul pigs to market with their 4x4's? Why is it that even in the downtown area of a major city here, there are tens of thousands of these vehicles, when 99.9% have never been within 500 yds of a farm, even in a largely rural state like MN? Telling someone to pull a horse trailer with their 4-cylinder Honda when only a fraction of a percent of all Americans would ever need to is like me telling you to drive the Daytona 500 with your truck or SUV.

Am I against ownership of SUV's and trucks? Of course not. My family and I put them to great use every day, as did all our neighbors. My beef is seeing people with no use whatsover for a truck or SUV sucking up gas and space without any need whatsoever.

[willat]

114. They probably...

...just like them better, so they buy them. I bet all the snow in MN is good enough reason to buy one.
They also have the utility part. Forget about towing, they come in handy whenever you need to move a piece of furniture, or even just a bunch of groceries. There's tons (literaly) of reasons for people that don't work on farms to buy them.

[NickB79]

116. Funny thing about trucks/SUV's and driving in snow

One of my best friends from college and former roommate works for his father's automotive shop now (he's taking a few years off from school). During the winter he drives towtruck, and according to him, he pulls more trucks and SUV's out of the ditch than cars. Many people driving trucks and SUV's in the snow get the idea that, since they have these big 4-wheel drive vehicles, they're immune from poor road conditions. In reality, your average soccer mom doesn't have the driving skills to use this in winter conditions, and then you're just driving a vehicle that weighs twice as much, meaning it has twice as much momentum when you start to slide. Consequently, they drive too fast for the conditions, lose control and hit the ditch in a disproportionate number.

I agree, there are often times that a truck or SUV comes in handy for things like moving large objects. And yes, people who, say, work construction, have very good reasons to own one and aren't farmers. But does that mean every lawyer, doctor, soccer mom or factory worker out there needs one? 30 yrs ago people also needed to move furniture, loads of kids and groceries all the time, yet survived somehow without SUV's or numerous trucks on the highways.

[willat]

117. Trucks have...

been the best selling vehicle in the U.S. for a long time. It's a rare year when a the top selling vehicle isn't a truck. And, really, why does a person need a good enough reason, other than they want it, to buy one?
I'm sure I don't need a house with more than 1 bathroom, a small kitchen, and other minimal necessities, but that doesn't mean I will limit myself to that.

[teach1st]

70. SUV Bad

I have an SUV, an xTerra. Getting it (used) wasn't exactly my choice, but that's a long story. It does comes in handy for hauling school supplies and kids from my after school class.

Until this week, I hadn't put gas in the thing since Christmas, when I was on vacation and fifty miles away from home. Yes, I could use even less gas with a more fuel-efficient car, but the point is my energy consumption is very low compared to most people. I don't purchase much of anything and I don't buy junk. Overall I leave a very low energy consumption footprint. I'm just waiting for somebody to dis me 'cause I drive an SUV.

Swimming pools, air conditioners, lawns, boundless purchases of clothes to feed a fashion habit, etc. can all be energy hogs. I'm reminded of the people here at DU who rail against NASCAR, but ignore the energy drain brought about by having professional hockey stadiums in warm climates. It would be nice to see less prejudice and more intelligence and tolerance, along with more education on this issue. It certainly does more good than endless bickering.

[Zhade]

86. Some good points in here.

I won't diss everyone who drives SUVs. However, when they are less safe, more expensive, and dirtier (23-47% more pollutants than regular cars), they seem a poor choice.

People are free to make that choice, but they should realize the consequences. You seem to have a good sense of balance regarding energy usage. Kudos to you for that.

[teach1st]

89. SUVs and gas guzzlers are overused

I personally think gasoline should be more expensive and taxes and registration fees for vehicles should be biased toward fuel efficiency.

Utlimately, it comes down to our culture and where it's taken us - we're consumption whores and it's got to change unless we can quickly come up with useable energy besides fossil fuels.

[willat]

90. My 2 Cents

I see a lot of posts here refering to SUV's as less safe. To me, that's a bunch of junk science. In my job, I see them in body shops, junk yards, and I read the claim files. Throw all the reports you want at me, they're a load of crap. In an accident, I'd rather be in an SUV 10 out of 10 times. I've seen the results.

[Zhade]

97. "Junk science"?

Fine. Show us proof of your claims, backed up by reliable sources.

[willat]

104. Hehe

What do you want, photos? I'm telling you my opinion from what I've seen. The source is my eye balls and brain, not a piece of paper (or bits). I've seen it many times over, the lightly damaged SUV and the near totalled car. Doesn't have to be an economy car either.

Just offering my observations to the group.

[Zhade]

107. First you say it's "junk science", then you say it's your opinion.

That's good enough for me - it's your opinion, not fact, that SUVs aren't as dangerous, when study after study have shown that the death rate for SUV drivers is much higher.

It's cool to share your opinion, but please make sure people know you're stating an opinion. That causes people less confusion. :)

[willat]

108. Not at all

No, I didn't say what I was stating was junk science, that is the opposite of what I was stating. It was also fairly obvious (at least to me) from the begining that I was stating my opinion, since I used what I see on my job as my source.

And just because it is my opinion, doesn't mean that it's NOT a fact. My opinion, to make it absolutely clear, is that those studies are very misleading. Because in my 18 years on the job, I've never been of the opinion that they are unsafe. Perhaps they are trying to say they rollover easier than cars, so they are unsafe? I think they know what conclusion they want, then they figure out a way to get there.

But, believe me, in a crash you want to be in the SUV, not the car! IMNSHO!

[Zhade]

118. I'm sorry, I think I was unclear in my own post.

I was referring to the fact that you called the studies "junk science". That's what I meant, not that your opinion was stated as junk science. My apologies for being unclear on that.

As far as the studies, it's your opinion that they're misleading. No problem. I understand your comments. I disagree, but at least that's all clear now. :)

[ms_splash]

120. So, now I need to go and get a Humvee

So I won't be crusher rather than the crushee?

(hey that rhymes!)

[PaveThePlanet]

72. So the majority is still V6/I6/H6 engines?

It's a pay-to-play situation. I've had 4-cylinder cars in the past, and I hated them, so I have a V6 now. Sure I don't get 80mpg, but the trade-off is worth it to me. It's my choice to pay more at the pump and more for insurance to not have to worry about not getting out of the way in time when a blue-hair in a Buick or a cell-phone-talking makeup-applying soccer mom cuts me off on the freeway.

[leesa]

74. Americans are TOLD they want more horsepower by their TVs and

they believe everything their TVs tell them.
We swung a deal with SA to forcefeed the American public giant, gas guzzling trucks and the press played the fear card and Americans fell for it like they always do. They forcefed them with unrelenting scare stories of unsafe small cars, with huge tax breaks for giant SUVs, with non-stop advertising for them...when was the last time you saw an ad for a hybrid??
It's sooooo scary out on the roads....you MUST have a giant truck to survive. This despite evidence showing they are more dangerous.

[PaveThePlanet]

76. Not necessarily...

While it's true that among the soccer moms there is a widespread case of Keeping Up With The Joneses, it comes down to the fact that there are people who are hardcore gearheads, myself included. To some there is nothing like the sound of a finely-tuned exhaust coming from a beautiful Italian automobile (or American, or German, etc.) The majority of people driving V8-, V10-, and V12-powered CARS (not trucks, mind you) are driving it because of the the rush the power provides.

SUV's are only as dangerous as the driver. You're talking about a soccer mom who drove a Honda Civic in college now in control of a 6000-pound chunk of metal. Totally different acceleration, braking, and handling characteristics, coupled with the mentality of "Oh, I have 4WD, I can automatically drive 85mph+ in the rain and snow!!." That and the fact that getting a drivers license in America is a joke. Driving is a privilege, not a right.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

92. True! Read my link at #67. Psychiatrists consulted with Detroit on SUV's.

or here> http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0712-01.htm

That article 'Trading On Fear' explains how fear propaganda was intentionally used to market SUVs after Schwarzenegger asked for his own post-Gulf War Humvee.

Our roadways are intentionally being militarized as part of the culture wars.

Read it and weep.

[Beaker]

91. when gas tops $3/gallon this summer- they're going to want more tissues...

to wipe away the tears.

[The_Casual_Observer]

94. Gas guzzler tax

500% of purchase price. Let em pay for their fetish, everybody else has to pay dearly for theirs!

[rjbcar27]

99. There ain't no substitute for cubes boy!

Quite frankly, horsepower (and torque) is where it's at. I'm currently building a 2.5 litre, 300 bhp, DOHC, 24v, V6 for my friends rally car. Should be awesome!

[Spentastic]

100. As a foreigner.

I'd like to see Americans with more brainpower.

[Gore1FL]

103. I don;t understand why they just don;t make bigg-assed hybrids.

Powerful Diesel Electricv locomotion has been around for years.

[PaveThePlanet]

122. Because of the stigma attached to diesel fuel

Thanks to GM's pathetic attempt to convert the 350 block to diesel in the 70's, Americans are convinced that diesel cars do nothing more than create huge clouds of black soot. VW sells turbodiesel Golf's and Jetta's that get upwards of 50mpg without sacrificing the torque that today's hybrids and high-mpg gasoline engines lack.

[Snow]

113. I think you'all have missed something -

and this'll probably kill the thread; I seem to be pretty good at that.

The blurb says "Automakers installed large V-8 engines blablabla last year,"

SO those are numbers from last year. Likely missing any trends, just a lump sum.

The rate's risen every year since 2000, they assert, when it was 25.3% vs the current 29.1%. So over 4 years the rate has gone up 3.8%, maybe less than 1% per year. And this is of 'all passenger vehicles built in North America (US, Canada, Mexico?) for the US market (including non-US brands?). And then they say 'cars and trucks'. Aer the trucks 'passenger vehicles'? Not clear.

Meanwhile, the small cars? 4-bangers fellfrom 'nearly 27%' - so 26.8 or 9? - to 25.3% I make that to be 1.5%. Over a 4-year (2000 - 2003)period? That's really nothing.

SO what's the point of this article? It looks to me like someone's really massaging the numbers to make it look like a big move to big engines. I don't see it. What's going on, some way of making sales by pretending everyone's doing it, it's fashionable?

[Snow]

121. Heh. Told ya I could kill this thread.....