Protests over dissident murders - Northern Ireland

[B Whale]

Source: BBC

People across Northern Ireland are expected to attend a series of rallies to show their anger at the murders of two soldiers and a policeman. Silent protests are to be held in Belfast, Lisburn, Newry, Downpatrick and Londonderry.

Most of the rallies have been organised by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. Peter Bunting, the congress's assistant general secretary, said workers had to unite to ensure the peace process "was not derailed" by those with an "agenda of sectarianism".
"They must be faced down with a massive display of the unity of the people of Northern Ireland. We are determined not to be assigned into tight sectarian boxes," he said.

British and Irish ministers met for a security summit at Hillsborough Castle in County Down on Tuesday, where they pledged the attacks would not be allowed to derail the peace process. Northern Ireland Secretary Shaun Woodward said the dissidents may have the power to take lives but added: "They do not have the power to stop the peace process." Sinn Fein Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness also condemned the attacks, saying: "These people are traitors to the island of Ireland, they have betrayed the political desires, hopes and aspirations of all of the people who live on this island."


He and First Minister Peter Robinson, of the Democratic Unionists, visited Mr Carroll's widow to offer their sympathies before departing for a visit to the United States. The trip had been postponed twice in the wake of the shootings




Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7936332.stm

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Hopefully these will be massive and make a fool of the murderers. They seem to be simply thugs and assasins who are now out of work and miss the violence. All people of NI seem appalled.

[byeya]

1. Question: Are Protestants treated better in Eire than Catholics

are treated in the six counties? The UK invaded Ireland{my family was kicked out} and it's way past time for the Brits to go home. Unite Ireland.

[B Whale]

3. In Northern Ireland the majority identify

themselves as british. What would you suppose you do with those people? deport them?

[B Whale]

4. And in direct answer to your question

In the last few days protestants have had their brains blown out by catholics in the North and i didn't see similar things happening in the south.

Northern Ireland for Catholics has become like living in any other part of the UK. Institutional discrimination of the past is being eliminated and both catholics and protestants want peace. Not a United Ireland at any price.

Its easy to sit an ocean away from the violence and cheerlead

[steaa]

5. The PSNI officer..

murdered on Monday was Catholic. Though that as probably seen as a bonus by the people who did it, dissadents have previously went out of their way in recent times to target, and try to kill PSNI officers who are Catholic.

For each job application, I have had to fill out a form stating if I was from the `Protestant` or `Roman Catholic` community. This is to ensure employers dont hire solely Catholics, or solely Protestants. For NI civil service jobs, depending on the sector to keep a semblence of balance and representation, Catholics or Protestants may be given priority or preference over one another depending on the numbers in that department to which theyve applied for.

As you have said, institutional discrimination can now be said to be a thing of the past.

[byeya]

6. Alabama has passed laws so institutional discrimination is a

thing of the past.
Iran has passed laws so institutional discrimination is a thing of the past. Zimbabwe?
One Ireland and everyone's rights will be respected as they are in Ireland and are not as they are in the six counties.

[B Whale]

8. Comparing NI with Iran or Zimbabwe

is ridiculous.

The people of Northern Ireland, in the main, wish to be British. Do you not believe in self determination?

The British protestants have been in Ireland for hundreds of years, long before America existed. Would you have America returned to the native Americans?

Would you support Mexican terrorists seeking to get New Mexico or Texas back? I bet Mexicans in those two states are treated a lot worse than Catholics in NI

[steaa]

9. Iran and Zimbabwe?

However, are you comparing the situation here to Iran and Zimbabwe? You really dont seem to have a clue. Newsflash, its not like the 1920s-1980s, or even early-mid 90s any more.

When and if unification does occur, I am fairly confident that some semblence of power will remain in Stormont, and the flag and anthem will change (no tricolour etc). I am personally not bothered, aslong as it is by peaceful means and the majority of NI are for it, and the benefits outweigh the negatives. However at this point in time, and in the near future there is no chance. I wouldnt want stuck with the health service in the RoI anyway.

[muriel_volestrangler]

11. But Sinn Fein is in the governing coalition

with Martin McGuinness as deputy first minister. So there are people in power who care very much about seeing there isn't discrimination. If there was institutional discrimination still going on, Sinn Fein would be catching a lot of flak from their supporters. As far as I know, they aren't.

If you can point to discrimination, then it's something worth discussing. But you can't assume that this is still the 1970s, when there was discrimination.

[B Whale]

7. I didn't know the officer was catholic

As you say probably a bonus for them to get a collaborator. Just like the Polish Catholic pizza delivery collaborators.

There's an excellent article by Aaronovitch in The Times that somes it up well for me. Basically, the thugs have missed something to hate and someone to kill. There role has now gone in NI and they want it back.

"How they've missed the pleasure of hating" http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/david_aaronovitch/article5877219.ece

[ananda]

10. Hear hear!

It's time for Brits to leave Ireland
and let it be.

My family had to leave County Limerick
during the potato famine.

[B Whale]

12. The Brits have left

Ireland. Northern Ireland is part of the UK and the majority of people there want to remain British and have been there for hundreds of years.

Are you suggesting deporting them?

[happyslug]

14. More complicated then Protestant-Catholic Spit

For example, the same laws that Catholics viewed as "anti-Catholic" (i.e. all land had to be dived equally among one's sons, except if one son joined the Church of Ireland, what the Anglican Church was called in Ireland. then that son received all of it) also applied to the Presbyterians who dominated Northern Ireland (Through Northern Ireland being more tied in with the ship building industry of Britain then the rest of Ireland, less affect, plus the British loved playing the Catholics against the Presbyterians and vice-versa).

The Great immigration from Ireland to the US was the first Irish movement to what is now the US, and it occurred from about 1696 (The end of the War of English Succession) till about 1774 (When Britain closed much of what would become the US under what we American called the "intolerable Acts of 1774" which lead directly the the American Revolution). These were almost all Presbyterians who felt betrayed by the English and caught between the Anglican leadership of Ireland the the majority of Irish who stayed Catholic. In the 1690s the vast majority if Ulster was Presbyterian and just under half of population of northern Ireland was Presbyterian (Southern Ireland was overwhelming Catholic during this same time period). The Presbyterians outside Ulster (and many from inside Ulster) migrated out of this mess to the Appalachian mountains of the US between 1696 and 1774. This had the tendency to leave the most Radical Presbyterians in Ulster (with a feeling they had been deserted by the Presbyterians who left). Furthermore, the Presbyterians who left tend to sell their land and property to the members of the Church Of Ireland who stayed. These two affects, Presbyterians selling their land and the fact if one of your sons joined the Church of Ireland he inherited ALL of your land, made Ireland a land of large estates owned by weatherly land owners (Members of the Church of Ireland) while the peasants who worked the fields were all Catholics. During the 1800s the Catholics wanted Independence of ALL of Ireland (in fact adopted the present Irish flag with its Green for Catholic and Orange for the Presbyterians) as an effort to get both groups together. This was in response to Britain's efforts to use one against the other. It worked in Ulster for the Presbyterians were tied in with the ship making industry of Ulster. In fact the efforts to set Ulster independent of the rest of Ireland was born out of a British divide and conquer policy.

When Ulster was divided from the rest of Ireland after the Irish revolt of the early 1920s, Britain made Ulster smaller then it had originally been. Two Counties of Ulster, by the 1920s, were more Catholic then Presbyterian and thus were left with the rest of Ireland. This tendency of the Presbyterians to move from rural areas to urban areas (and to Britain itself as oppose to the rest of Ulster) have made two more counties more Catholic then Presbyterian (Please note, since the 1800s the terms "Catholic" and "Presbyterians" and "Protestant" had less to do with what religion you actually practices as opposed to you view your place in the world, the Catholics were more in helping the poor, improving education and making a place for everyone, the Presbyterians was more into preserving their historical superior rights in Ulster, with the Church of Ireland happily remaining a preserve in Ireland for its rich landowners). While the term Catholic and Presbyterians are used, the terms reflect the class background of the group then any real religious differences.

Ulster has some interesting history in itself, it was the last area of Catholic Resistance to the re-conquest of Ireland by Elizabeth I in the late 1500s, and then re-settled by "Reform" Church "Presbyterians" under James I, Charles I (Cromwell ruled England After Charles I, and invaded Ireland, but stayed in the Middle of Ireland more then Ulster, but Cromwell's invasion route soon became the border between Catholic Ireland and that part of Ireland that had a substantial Presbyterian minority. After the battle of the Boyne in the 1690s this started to change as the Presbyterians all left.

As to present day Ireland's treatment of minorities, I have NOT heard of any complaints including no complaints of discrimination, which is widespread in Northern Ireland (Not as bad as it was in the 1960s when the "Troubles" started, but it still exists).

[B Whale]

15. And also a tad more complicated than

you make out.

Your comprehensive analysis is interesting but the section "Please note, since the 1800s the terms "Catholic" and "Presbyterians" and "Protestant" had less to do with what religion you actually practices as opposed to you view your place in the world, the Catholics were more in helping the poor, improving education and making a place for everyone, the Presbyterians was more into preserving their historical superior rights in Ulster" is a nonsense.

And as for protestant or catholic denoting class background rather than religion is bizarrely wide of the mark. Are you suggesting there are no working class protestants in Ulster?

On emigration to US "These were almost all Presbyterians who felt betrayed by the English and caught between the Anglican leadership of Ireland the the majority of Irish who stayed Catholic." that is too sweeping an assertion for that migration.

And "This was in response to Britain's efforts to use one against the other. It worked in Ulster for the Presbyterians were tied in with the ship making industry of Ulster. In fact the efforts to set Ulster independent of the rest of Ireland was born out of a British divide and conquer policy. " Again, come on, evidence of the motives. Have you got a 'divide and conquer' memo?

You've also put no historical context of the treatment of protestants in Ireland prior to 1690 and the european wide dynamic following the Glorious Revolution of 1688.

I'm all for more in depth discussions but don't try and dress up your misleading anti-British, anti-Ulster tirade with assertions about population's feelings or motives of governments hundreds of years ago then pepper it with dates to sound credible.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

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[B Whale]

13. kick (for peace)

[LeftishBrit]

16. kick for the protesters

[B Whale]

17. Its also good to see the Trade Unions

at the heart of these demonsttrations. If there was ever a way to forge an identity across secterian lines i've alwys thought Trades Unions had a huge role to play.